Theory: The Nightwatcher and the Old Magic is the result of Cultivations bitterness and disillusionment

[Shardlet]

Here is some quotiness from the Lift interlude which forms the groundwork for this rather simple theory:

 

 

"...But no, the Ring said we should choose you. ‘She has visited the Old Magic,’ they said. ‘Our mother has blessed her,’ they said. ‘She will be young, and we can mold her,’ they said. ..."

 

 

“You shouldn’t be able to either,” he said, sounding troubled. “What did you ask for, when you visited my mother?”

 

 

Wyndle moved along beside Lift. “Mother has given up on your kind,” he said. “I can feel it. She doesn’t care any longer. Now that He’s gone . . .”

 

All of the above quotes were spoken by Wyndle (Lift's bondspren).

 

I think these quotes virtually (though not absolutely) confirm that the Nightwatcher is indeed Cultivation.  The first and second quotes refer to the Nightwatcher with Wyndle (and the Ring) referring to her as their "mother" and the third quote seems to clearly indicate (although not ironclad) Cultivation owing to the "Now that He's gone" part.

 

So, one of my early criticisms of the Nightwatcher = Cultivation theory was that the boon/curse gifts of the nightwatcher did not smack of Cultivation since the curses that we had seen so far did not seem to have any purpose and seemed somewhat capricious.

 

Now, in view of the third quote, I think that capriciousness fits nicely.  It is my contention that Cultivation was so devastated at the loss of Honor that she by and large checked out of the whole game, as it were.  She has given up on people (and the Oathpact?) and is depressed.  Now, when people come to her, she makes the sword cut both ways out of bitterness of Honor's death.

 

Now, there is still much room for discovery within this theory.  Was the boon/curse system established before Honor's death.  I think it was very possibly so.  As so many have pointed out, the process of cultivation involves pruning as well as feeding.  I would not be surprised to find that the 'curses' from Cultivation prior to Honor's death were constructive in the vein of some kind of disability (not necessarily bodily) in an area of less importance that leads to strengthening in some other area of greater importance.

 

So, what do you all think?

Edited November 4, 2013 by Shardlet

[Argent]

It makes sense. Though I am more curious about why Cultivation would choose to work the way she does, assuming her boon/curse gifts are a reaction to Honor's Splintering. I mean, it's a strange thing to do, unless of course her mind is a little unhinged. I don't see the rational step behind "my lover is dead, therefore I'll play a game with the humans and curse them even as I bless them." It almost feels like the circumstances around Honor's Splintering nudged Cultivation's mind towards this specific course of action. Unfortunately, I can't even speculate about the details...

[Kurkistan]

An interesting thought. I wouldn't be shocked if it were the case, though we have some ground yet to cover before I'd go so far as to say that it's likely.

[Shardlet]

@Argent - That is why I am now leaning more towards the boon/curse pattern predating Honor's demise (where the curse was constructive).  That way the transition to capriciousness is an easy transition due to her bitterness.

[deddinty]

That's a very interesting point. I always immediately go to physically "cultivating" land when I think of cultivation but it's so much more than that. We "cultivate the mind", "cultivate friendships", "cultivate talents".  It's not only about growing things, but growing ourselves, and helping other people grow.  I could see this original "pure" intention becoming slightly twisted and bitter which could result in the curses becoming less about improving and more about punishing individuals.

[dionysus]

Don't we have a WoB or something that a shardholder will eventually have to follow the intent of the shard? Cultivation in my mind doesn't share much in common with Honor, so it seems to me to go along with the OPs theory that it was the shardholder, and not the intent of the shard itself, that aligned with Honor and opposed Odium. Though the shardholder would have also have had to do it in a way that promotes the intent of the shard.

 

So now with the shardholder of Honor gone, Cultivation is abandoning that shardholder alliance and just behaving according to the intent of the shard.

 

Just some random thoughts along the lines of the OP.

[Argent]

The Shard's Intent eventually does overwrite the Shardholder's personality, though I am not sure if this is inevitable or if it simply takes a very long time for certain Holder-Shard combos.

[WeiryWriter]

Cultivation in my mind doesn't share much in common with Honor, so it seems to me to go along with the OPs theory that it was the shardholder, and not the intent of the shard itself, that aligned with Honor and opposed Odium.

 

Well, they were romantically involved.

[dionysus]

Well, they were romantically involved.

 

That is what I was getting at even though I hadn't seen that thread. We haven't had the intent of Cultivation explained yet, nor really Honor for that matter, but just going by the definitions of the words they would seem to be neutral to each other. It was the personal motivations of the shardholders that might have brought about an alliance if that is what there was. Could be logical, could be emotional, but separate from any inherent intent of the shards themselves.

[Shardlet]

 Though the shardholder would have also have had to do it in a way that promotes the intent of the shard.

 

I think it might be more accurate to say 'in a way which did not conflict with the intent of the shard'.  I doubt that every action a SHard takes must be directly and inextricably in line with the governing intent of that Shard.  Rather, they cannot conflict with that intent (at the very least in the long term). 

[Gloom]

I like the theory Shardlet.

 

I'd say that while honor and cultivation aren't exactly something that one would associate with the other, they are not without similarities.

 

Honor is about behaving in a way that is beneficial to society. An honorable person is a merit to the community. Cultivation is about improving something. It's about making something the best that it can be through time and effort. So it could be said that a society which could cultivate an environment filled with honorable people would be the pinnacle of achievement for both Shards.

 

I wouldn't doubt that the purpose of the Nightwatcher was to aid humanity in achieving this goal. The granting of a boon to make a man more capable of attaining his dreams, in exchange for a neurological alteration that would push that man towards making the right choices. In some ways, while her methods are suspect, she may still be following this pattern. She is still bound to be following the intent of her Shard, which is to Cultivate, but it's possible she has become less focused on what direction she is pushing them.

[Shardlet]

I admit some confusion with some of the responses.  It seems that some of you have read this as Cultivation having some strong tie to the intent of Honor.  I'm not sure where that comes from.  For the purpose of this theory, the only connection I read between Honor and Cultivation is their personal relationship and their apparent joint efforts in the Oathpact.  I don't see any reason why the governing intent of Honor would hold any particular sway or influence over her.

 

As to following the intent of her shard, Cultivation has been Cultivation long enough for the intent to have swallowed her up quite a bit.  However, I could see the death of Tanavast having two alternative effects on her that influnce Cultivations intent over over her.  1) She is broken by Tanavast's death and thus gives herself over to the intent of the shard completely; or 2) Tanavast's death is personal to her on such a level that her anguish causes her own will and personality to reassert itself over that of the governing intent of the shard.

 

For this theory to work completely, it would have to have been alternative 2) which occurred.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Shardlet

[weebojello]

Shardlet,

 

I think that's a great theory. I've thought along the same lines. If it is confirmed that cultivation / nightwatcher are analogous, of course.

 

That said, there was a question regarding Cultivation. I recollect Brandon stating that Cultivation (#17) is more compatible with Odium than one might think.

 

I would have to think that an engaged Cultivation could probably help with the ... re-integration of a shardholder for Honor. Also given that according to Tanavast himself, Cultivation was able to see in the future much better than he, which leaves even more questions. Is Cultivation ultimately playing possum for now? Only 9 more books to find out!

[lonelymagician]

 

 

Mother has given up on your kind,” he said. “I can feel it. She doesn’t care any longer. Now that He’s gone . . 

 

I also get the feeling that She blames, at least in part, humans (or whatever race) for His death. Like, either they had a key role in it, or failed to do something (breaking the oathpact) that would have kept him alive. This, in my mind at least, kind of fits with how Odium would probably work.

[Vortaan]

I also get the feeling that She blames, at least in part, humans (or whatever race) for His death. Like, either they had a key role in it, or failed to do something (breaking the oathpact) that would have kept him alive. This, in my mind at least, kind of fits with how Odium would probably work.

 

Honor also could have forced the conflict with Odium. It makes sense to me that Honor would make himself Odium's main target, in order to try and spare the other Shards for as long as possible. Cultivation, on the other hand, doesn't seem like the kind to make herself a target, and this could have caused a bit of bitterness for the people Honor died protecting.

[Arook]

I like this theory on account of if you look at it in relation to Dalinar. We know He went to the Nightwatcher and that one part of His curse/boon is that He can't remember His wife. If we go on the assumption that it is His curse then it is possible that cultivation made him forget his wife to help him to move on an form a new relationship (while still providing something he would see as a curse). Something I don't think he would have done if he could still remember his wife. Of course it is just as likely that He went there to remove Her from His mind because the pain was to great.

[LightReader]

I'm totally imagining a love triangle with Tanavast, Rayse and Cultivation's shardholder being the main romantic arc in the pre-shattering Dragonsteel series.  Tanavast gets the girl because he's actually a good guy, and Rayse really hates him for it.  So now the reason our lady Nightwatcher hasn't been splintered yet is because Rayse still wants Cultivation's shardholder and doesn't know how to splinter her shard without killing her. (I suspect he's not really capable of love at this point considering his Shard's intent, but it could totally be one of those evil-guy-wants-the-pretty-girl-as-a-trophy things).  So now Cultivation is kind of a prisoner of Rayse/Odium, and she's depressed and angry.   I like the idea that she's mad at humanity for giving up on the Oathpact and failing to be honorable thus weakening Honor enough that Rayse could kill Tanavast.   

Edited November 16, 2013 by LightReader

[IceBaka]

I'm totally imagining a love triangle with Tanavast, Rayse and Cultivation's shardholder being the main romantic arc in the pre-shattering Dragonsteel series.  Tanavast gets the girl because he's actually a good guy, and Rayse really hates him for it.  So now the reason our lady Nightwatcher hasn't been splintered yet is because Rayse still wants Cultivation's shardholder and doesn't know how to splinter her shard without killing her. (I suspect he's not really capable of love at this point considering his Shard's intent, but it could totally be one of those evil-guy-wants-the-pretty-girl-as-a-trophy things).  So now Cultivation is kind of a prisoner of Rayse/Odium, and she's depressed and angry.   I like the idea that she's mad at humanity for giving up on the Oathpact and failing to be honorable thus weakening Honor enough that Rayse could kill Tanavast.   

 

Is this why Odium is so heavily invested in Roshar -- to keep Cultivation imprisoned somehow?

[Natans]

I'm totally imagining a love triangle with Tanavast, Rayse and Cultivation's shardholder being the main romantic arc in the pre-shattering Dragonsteel series.  Tanavast gets the girl because he's actually a good guy, and Rayse really hates him for it.  So now the reason our lady Nightwatcher hasn't been splintered yet is because Rayse still wants Cultivation's shardholder and doesn't know how to splinter her shard without killing her. (I suspect he's not really capable of love at this point considering his Shard's intent, but it could totally be one of those evil-guy-wants-the-pretty-girl-as-a-trophy things).  So now Cultivation is kind of a prisoner of Rayse/Odium, and she's depressed and angry.   I like the idea that she's mad at humanity for giving up on the Oathpact and failing to be honorable thus weakening Honor enough that Rayse could kill Tanavast.   

 

 There is only a wrong thing here, the god guy never get the girl

 

So the a shardholder can still love even with the shard intetion changing the hold personality ?

 

Could be that cultivation is bonded by the oathpact in some way, like odium and honor, and becasue of this she can't act directly against Odium? I say this because if I was immortal and someone killed my immortal "wife" I would for sure seek revenge, like Vin did.

 

If cultivation didn't killed or tried kill Odium something i think that something is holding her, and likewise, if Odium didbn't killed her(and he allready killed 3or so shardholder) must exist a reason.

[EC11]

Upvoted because this theory is great. Also loving the 'love triangle' idea!

 

However, my own theory with Cultivation is that while she is devastated by Honor's death, she hasn't completely abandoned helping mankind in some form (her shard won't let her) though I don't see her as lashing out against mankind either since that is totally the opposite of her shards intent (unless of course it allows her to cultivate grudges as well) and she is in fact still indirectly helping them somehow with her booms.

 

I mean look at Lift, she has gained power from the Nightwatcher (I'm betting the 'curse' was being forced to metabolize stormlight and thus always be ravenously hungry, but this also resulted in one of the spren being sent along to aide the girl either through as yet unknown means or Cultivation realized that it could inadvertently kill her) and it is certainly a boon in some way as well. I think she still has a part to play in bringing back the Knights Radiant somehow, even if it is indirectly.

[Darkness]

I feel like the reasoning behind Cultivation's combined curse/blessing isn't because she's unhinged (although she undoubtedly is upset by Honor's death - that much is written). I have an alternative:

Considering the shardic intent of Cultivation; she grows, enlarges, or otherwise aids in development. This could be exagerration of an extant attribute (like heightening someone's intelligent, or sharpening curiosity), or planting and nurturing a seed where there wasn't one (like imbuing surgebinding powers). It may be that to keep balance (thereby not weakening her own power by investing herself directly in Roshar's inhabitants, like Preservation did on Scadrial) she has to cultivate both positive and negative attributes equally. She may be benevolent, but just limited in what she can actually do for people.

[Swimmingly]

I feel like the reasoning behind Cultivation's combined curse/blessing isn't because she's unhinged (although she undoubtedly is upset by Honor's death - that much is written). I have an alternative:

Considering the shardic intent of Cultivation; she grows, enlarges, or otherwise aids in development. This could be exagerration of an extant attribute (like heightening someone's intelligent, or sharpening curiosity), or planting and nurturing a seed where there wasn't one (like imbuing surgebinding powers). It may be that to keep balance (thereby not weakening her own power by investing herself directly in Roshar's inhabitants, like Preservation did on Scadrial) she has to cultivate both positive and negative attributes equally. She may be benevolent, but just limited in what she can actually do for people.

But what about purely physical requests, like the old man who got the sheets? She probably loses no power granting something so mundane, does she? Unless the balance is not a per-transaction deal, but a judgment call, so a worthy person might get a lot and lose a little and an unworthy person might get a little and lose a lot, so it balances out overall, and even someone who gains nothing Investiture or attribute-wise might lose something to keep the balance in the black Edited December 22, 2013 by Swimmingly

[hoser]

I like this theory!

 

Without any other evidence than the name "Old magic", I want to scaffold onto it. 

 

For it to be the "Old Magic", there should be a newer magic.  The only magic that could be newer, as I see it, would be the surgebinders (I think the modern fabrials are too modern to change how the Nightwatcher's effects are named).  So cultivation does her thing, maybe with more feeling, then the surgebinders come along, then the Radiants form, causing the boon/curse system to be the "old" magic along with the Heralds and the Desolations.  The knights fit in with the Heralds and the Desolations, leaving the curse/boon setup without an obvious tie-in.  Cultivation either enjoys it, is committed via investiture or gains some benefit I don't understand and keeps on doing it.  Influencing Mr. T, Dalinar, Lift, potentially many others including Gavilar, she may be affecting events more than is apparent. 

[Shardlet]

I think it is called the 'old magic' because it has been around consistently from beyond reckoning.  But, it has always been there and is actual magic that living people have experienced from generation to generation.  In contrast, surgebinding is largely unknown and the abilities of the KR have become discounted legends and are therefore no longer 'real' in the people's minds.  It is not 'magic' to them because it was not 'real'. 

[askthepaperclip]

I have also been intrigued by the term "old magic" since I first read it. To Shardlet's point, if what you say is true (and I think it is), we are still missing a "new" magic in the minds of the people. Maybe fabrial science? Although I think that is treated much more like science than "magic" (hence the name, I suppose...)