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3,602 Lerasium Mistborn

About Pagerunner

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    Searching for the Mask of Investiture
  • Birthday 04/29/1990

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    I've read a fair amount of Fantasy: Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, 1/2 of A Song of Ice and Fire. These days, I don't have time for much more than Cosmere.

    I'm also big into Sci-Fi. I used to be crazy for the Star Wars EU, but recent events have hit me hard.

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  1. I, unfortunately, didn’t have the time I would have liked to keep up with the preview chapters. I’ve been reading them, of course, but I haven’t had the time to write up my thoughts on each chapter as it’s been coming out. Let me remedy that this week and catch up on everything I’ve been thinking about since Chapter Six: Fabrial science. As a reminder, I happened to call the allomantic metal parallels before they became evident. I wrote up some comments in another thread, and now the epigraphs have moved beyond what I see as true “fabrial science.” Because fabrials appear to function on several different phenomena. Conjoiners and logicspren clocks and things like the gemstone archive appear to be based on technological applications of specific spren interactions; but the core of fabrials seems to be spren manifesting through a gemstone to cause specific effects. There are several parameters involved: different kinds of metal produce different responses in non-sentient spren, and the spren type and gemstone type also appear to play a role, for a nice big cross-referencable table of potential fabrial manifestations. I’m also going to hold out for silver fabrials to help augment the 8 allomantic pure metals (and 8 corresponding alloys) to get us up to 10 types of fabrial metals. Not mentioned in the epigraphs, unfortunately, but I haven’t given up. One last bit on the anti-Radiant fabrial: Navnai notes that it doesn’t have a spren. I agree with her hypothesis that means it’s like soulcasters and oathgates, where a sentient voidspren is a willing participant; she’ll either be able to see it in Shadesmar, or the voidspren left once the fabrial was captured. Ghostbloods. The more we learn about what’s been going on behind-the-scenes on Roshar, the less it makes sense to me. Why are Ghostbloods killing Alethi highprinces like Thanadal, Vamah, and Ialai Sadeas if they’re truly interested in obtaining Stormlight to take off-world? But anyways, in terms of Ialai’s killer. I don’t think we’ll be able to guess who it is, yet; we haven’t met enough other Lightweavers (although through WoB we know they exist, through Steve Argyle’s stand-in). I think we’ll meet some more of the Order, and it will be one of them. Also, I’ve been rolling the word “Thaidakar” around in my head a little bit. The way the other cosmere planets had extra vowels added to their names (Nalathis, Scadarial) makes me think that, since Alethi don’t like to smash letters together, the name “Thaidakar” may be something more like “Thaidkar.” I’m wondering if that’s a name we’ll eventually recognize, like Temoo = Demoux and Vao = Baon. But Thaidkar = Sidecar is the best I’m able to come up with, and I don’t think the Ghostbloods are run by a motorcycle accessory. But if anyone comes up with a good way to get “Sovereign” out of it, let me know. Renarin does something odd with the Spiritual Realm in Chapter Eight. I suspect it’s Illumination, something very much like what Shallan has done in seeing the good in people (like the people she inspired on the Shattered Plains) and drawing things she has no business knowing (like Shallash or the survivors of the Wind’s Pleasure). Navani’s Message. Someone is mad about fabrials on behalf of the spren. There are two ways I can see this going. 1) This is the Sibling, who is a fabrial wildcard and can willingly mimic any fabrial effect in any gemstone. The concern is that overuse of fabrial technology will destroy Roshar the same way overuse of magic destroyed Ashyn (through interrupting the natural cycles of Investiture), and Navani’s plot will involve her reconciling with, reawakening, and bonding the Sibling. 2) This is entirely a deception by someone seeking to undermine the Radiants, imitating a spren (maybe even the Sibling itself). I am currently partial to Navani as a Willshaper candidate, so I’m tentatively leaning towards option 2, but we’ll see where the plot goes. Willshapers. Rlain’s rejection of a Windrunner spren makes me think he’s being set up for a Willshaper spren, as a specific avenue for Venli and co.’s unification with the rest of the Radiants. (And I’ll ship Vlain, while I’m at it.) That’s the one thing standing in my way on Navani as a Willshaper; it seems like, for now, all the Willshaper spren are going to line up and bond singers. But the Reachers we saw in OB didn’t have a dislike of humans, so maybe there’s no reason both humans and singers can be Willshapers together. Voidlight. I actually did manage to get this out into a post of its own I’ll spare you the details here, but I think that the mystery Voidlight from Gavilar’s sphere is the fulfillment of what Mraize is looking for with getting Stormlight off-world. Gavilar, who Mraize believes was trying to do the same thing, managed to get it transformed and refined to take it off-world. I know the voidpsren/Fused/Unmade theories are still pretty popular about Gavilar’s spheres, but I think the textual evidence has leaned pretty convincingly towards Voidlight. OB had three big clues: Eshonai in the prologue identifying them as the light of the “king of the gods,” the actual appearance of Voidlight through the Fused using it, and the actual capture of an Unmade in a gemstone. The first two pointed towards Voidlight, the third pointed towards Invested entity. But now Rhythm of War has moved away from that; Voidlight spheres from alternate sources are directly compared to Gavilar’s spheres by people knowledgeable (Navani and Rlain), and Gavilar and his associates were expressly mentioned to be experimenting with Light (not Voidlight or Stormlight, just Light, which encompasses both). And a knowledgeable in-world sources who now had access to both Gavilar’s mystery sphere and to the imprisoned Unmade (i.e. Navani) does not even consider that the sphere might hold an Invested entity, undermining the third observation from OB; she’s 100% looking for what makes it a different kind of Voidlight. Not too many thoughts on Fused and ancient singer culture. One thing that stands out: Soulcast stones for the Nine in Kholinar. Were they Fused Soulcasting? Or are they actually using Soulcaster fabrials? Seems like a contradiction there, using human fabrials to set up something distinctly singer. At the end of Chapter Fourteen, Timbre and Venli briefly mention capturing a human Radiant to train Venli. I wonder if Kaladin gets himself captured again, if we get a nice Faith of the Fallen storyline of him among the singers after the planned raid on Urithiru. Which would be why the release party t-shirt has Kaladin and Venli on it together. Cognitive Shadows. Vasher says that he had his memories taken for a reason. I wonder what other Cognitive Shadows have had some or all of their memories removed for their self-preservation… maybe even put those memories into a coin, eh? Also, we’ll be getting one more Vasher chapter The actual plots of these chapters have been, by and large, unsatisfying for me. It feels like the war has actually gotten less intense; now the Windrunners and the Fused play games in the sky while Edgedancer kids are ice skating around a Singer stronghold. And the Kaladin/Vasher fight was a prime example of an overwritten no-stakes combat; it was tiring to read for the same reason that the mistborn-vs-mistborn fights in Mistborn 2 are tiring for me to reread now that I know they all end. The actual blow-by-blow details of a fight are only as interesting as the reason the fight is happening. And Kaladin’s viewpoints are really laying it on thick through telling, rather than showing. (Which everyone else’s are to a lesser degree, but Kaladin is by far the worst offender.) Which, again, isn’t served by us knowing how it ends; the Syl interlude (that is presumably at the end of Part 1) tells us that Kaladin has gone back to being a surgeon. We know where all this moping and griping is going to end up; Kaladin’s not going to kill himself, he’s going to find a new noncombat job.
  2. Social Media Total: 100% (2211/2211) Theoryland Review: 84% (997/1184) Events and Signings Review: 0% (0/397) So, turns out it was not clear by September. And it's not really clear by October, either. Such is life. But do have enough free time to get back on top of WoBs; Arcanum is completely up to date on the latest stuff, Theoryland review is well on its way to being done (I expect it will be completely done by the time Rhythm of War comes out), and I'm planning to use some of my eventual downtime to churn through the Events and Signings review by the end of the calendar year, if not sooner. In terms of the Theoryland review, I've got about fifteen WoBs so far I'm on the fence about; kinda vague or very slightly useful stuff that were initially excluded, and which I may or may not put into Miscellaneous events. They're mostly sentence-length excerpts from interviews that are mostly canned answers, and I need to do a little bit of work to see if we've got their topics covered sufficiently well. So you may see a little bump of really old stuff heading into Arcanum, soon. I'm intrigued to see how the release party events will go, in terms of work required. Previous signing tours would have quite a bit of audio, like 30-40 hours worth in total, but a very small fraction of that would be actual WoBs. But this format will encourage questions more so than a live signing; it's not like half the livestream "questions" will be "wow it's such an honor to meet you" like a real signing line would be. So the actual transcription work may take a lot longer. I'm excited to get this review completely done and be able to personally vouch for Arcanum to be comprehensive as possible. If you told me in 2017 that I'd still be working on this in 2020, I'd be like "wow what a slacker I turned out to be," which is kind of true. I'm looking forward to coming up with some new projects for myself once it's done, for sure. But for the time being, gotta finish up the old stuff, and the Rhythm of War release is a pretty good soft target for that. Don't think I'll make it, but that's okay. I'll have it done for sure by Stormlight Five.
  3. With the latest RoW chapter, we finally got an answer to what Gavilar had in his mysterious black spheres. It was, indeed Voidlight. I had been pretty solidly in the Voidlight camp for quite a long while; the prologue made me flip over to imprisoned Voidspren, but Chapter Thirteen and this most recent one got me back. Shame on me for doubting myself. But, though it is an answer, it is not the entirety of the answer. Because Gavilar had more than just one kind of sphere. You may have been wondering facetiously, “If Voidlight is so good, how come Odium never made Voidlight 2?” But it turns out, that just may be what we got in Chapter Sixteen. Relevant passages from this chapter: Navani: Szeth: Nem the Jeweler: Rlain: So, there’s something different about this Voidlight (and, yes, I’m going to keep calling it Voidlight for the time being, since it has the same color and it came from the same source [Gavilar] as other Voidlight spheres). Taking a step back and looking at the big picture, what was Gavilar trying to accomplish with this Voidlight? Excerpts below from the prologue and from Mraize’s lore dump Gavilar: Mraize: So, Gavilar was working with the Heralds to try to overcome the "Connection Problem." His test subjects were Voidlight spheres; I had assumed that he needed actual Invested Entities like spren (which was why I had flipped briefly to the Voidspren camp), but we have since learned that Stormlight and Voidlight themselves have the same Connection limitations. (Which is a little surprising to me, since I thought the Dor being trapped on Sel was a specific function of those Shards’ state, seeing how Awakening and Allomancy and Aviars and whatever ghost gun Nazh had in the Mistborn broadsheets all function perfectly well off-world. But that’s a question for another time.) There were two core problems that Gavilar/the Heralds/the Ghostbloods needed to learn to overcome: how to keep the Investiture from leaking out of its storage containers, and how to remove the Connection inhibitions. Gavilar apparently succeeded at the first. The mystery sphere is noted to have few to no imperfections. Where he got it from is another minor mystery, but I presume it was from spren in Shadesmar or a growth fabrial or something. Nothing too earth-shattering. However, I think he has also succeeded at the second. Some form of modification or corruption that changed the nature of the Voidlight, refining it and allowing it to be taken off-world or used in other magic systems. The two people he was worried about killing him for it, Thaidakar and Restares, were both looking for the same answer: the Ghostbloods for their mercantile aspirations, Restares as Gavilar’s compatriot. This is not the first hint we’ve seen of refined Investiture. It’s mentioned on the Hemalurgy table, of course; atium Hemalurgy only steals any powers if it has been refined. But we’ve also got a number of WoBs over the years about this concept. I have added emphasis: These are hints that refined or purified Investiture transcends the limits that are normally inherent to it. Stormlight is normally only tied to Rosharan magics; but if you can refine it, anyone can use it. I’m still fuzzy on what unrefined atium does in Hemalurgy, but refined atium has no limitations on what it can steal. Refined Investiture in a nicrosil metalminds lets the metalmind be accessed by anybody, not just a nicrosil Feruchemist. And even outside of Invested Arts applications, other limitations can be overcome, as well. Connection of Investiture to a planetary system. Possibly even the Investiture interference principle, which could explain why atium beads can be Pushed and Pulled. Now, this idea is still pretty open-ended; we do have the vast majority of a new book coming, and some early hints are that this concept will be explored pretty heavily, what with the cover being main characters outside the fortress where Restares lives with a secret mission from Mraize and the Ghostbloods to learn what he knows. So I don’t really have any guesses as to how Investiture gets refined. But I’m betting that Gavilar’s mystery sphere with Voidlight 2 is going to be a culmination of these plotlines and something they will learn how to replicate. For better or worse. I am making an intentional decision to put this theory out before the Chapter Sixteen annotation comes out. After all this mystery around the black spheres, and this latest chapter ratcheting it up another notch, I don’t expect that an annotation will be providing us any answers on this subject. We’ll tomorrow if I’m right on that count or not.
  4. Well, boys and girls, I recently lost power at my house for about a day due to a hurricane. Left with no internet to distract me, I turned my attention to an old hobby of mine: building with Legos. I've had a project in the back of my mind for a while, one that I've tried out a couple of times unsuccessfully. But this time, I managed to get something I'm reasonably happy with. The torso could use a good redesign, and there's a lot of polishing left to do on it, but it's at least passably recognizable as something that's supposed to be a person. So, without further ado, I would like to introduce you all to my good friend:



    Nothing too crazy on design, except the aforementioned torso. He stands almost the exact height of a hardcover book. For those who are unfamiliar with the lore of Lego's Bionicle universe, Pagerunner is a legendary hero called a Toa, who has both an elemental power and a mask that grants him a special ability. Pagerunner is a Toa of Air, all the better for flying quickly to outrageous conclusions whenever a new prerelease chapter drops. And he wears the Mask of Speed, which lets him race straight to the scene when he hears someone say they got a new WoB.


    His Toa Tool is the WoB Hammer. He can use it both to crush the theories of anyone within arm's reach and to fire WoB missiles all the way across the internet.


    In his other hand, is that some sort of shield? No, it's just a comically large book, although it's certainly thick enough to block an attack or two. It's got a picture of a dragon on the front, but I can't remember what the actual name of the book is... Oh well. I'm sure it'll come back to me eventually.

    And, yes, the "book" really does open and close. This is the part of the build that needs the most polishing; I was able to rustle up two hinge pieces, but they're not both in the same color. And some of the dark green pieces on the very top and bottom, I could only find one of. I'll probably finish it up at some point, order some spare bricks off the internet.


    So there he is, in all his glory. I'm no professional Lego builder (for those of you who aren't aware, yes, that is a real job), but it's nice to finally have Pagerunner in a physical embodiment after all these years.

  5. I have, unfortunately, not had enough time to be able to keep up with this thread or the other discussions of fabrial mechanics. I've barely had time to read the preview chapters, let alone give the new fabrial mechanics the research and analysis they deserve. So this post will be less-well-cited than I would typically ensure. But I've gotta get some of these thoughts out there anyways, so here goes. I'll start with the basics, which I'm pretty sure everyone is familiar with: fabrial metals are allomantic metals. The effects match up almost perfectly (with tin being a bit of an odd exception, but it still makes sense as a physical pulling effect). Even though Navani only lists six metals, I think by parallels we can determine that steel and copper are the metals for repulsers and something along the lines of concealers, respectively. The big hiccup is the additional stated effect of iron/steel being involved in augmenters/diminishers, but I believe that's a typo. Although I haven't looked through the thread, I would expect this possibility has been raised before. In case it hasn't, I've gone into detail in a reddit comment; long story short, replace "steel and iron" in the Chapter 10 epigraph with "pewter and tin," and everything clicks a whole lot cleaner. With that observation in mind, we move onto something I'll take as axiomatic: there are ten kinds of fabrials, and thus ten fabrial metals. Without even looking at fabrial types, I posited above that we have half of the allomantic metals accounted for. But do we count that as eight metals, or four metals and their alloys? If we do it the first way, then we only have two metals remaining, so we would, at the very least, exclude six allomantic metals in fabrial science. (Which wouldn't be the end of the world, in my mind; we've got physical and cognitive effects, but no enhancement or temporal in fabrials [since we're looking at allomantic quadrants and allomantic effects for parallels, not feruchemical, which is the table that has spiritual effects].) The other way (which is kind of where I'm leaning), we'll have eight metals and eight alloys, leaving two fabrial metals which are not allomantic metals. (Anyone else remember the four unused allomantic symbols, by the way?) We know silver has unique properties in the cosmere due to what we've seen on Threnody, so I think that's a prime suspect. Not sure what the other base metal could be, but if I'm speculating I'm partial to a metalloid like silicon to help us with computer integration of Investiture down the road. But that's not really here nor there. So, let's flip the previous axiom on its side and not look at metals, but look at types of fabrials. I think polarity is a property that subdivides among a single type of fabrials. So augmenters/diminishers are a single item in our list of ten kinds of fabrials, with augmenter being positive polarity and diminisher being our negative polarity. Like I said before, we've got four kinds of fabrials: augmenters/diminishers, attractors/repulsers, rioters/soothers (pending an official name for zinc/brass), and alterters/concealers. We also do have conjoiners/reversers, but I don't think those are a different type, since Navani's list of metals appears to have reached its end. If they had another metal for conjoiners, she'd include it in the list, so that makes me think conjoiners use the same metal as one of the other kinds of fabrials. I'd guess they are rioters of some sort. But we do have a fifth kind of fabrial: Surgebinders/surge suppressors. The voidrial that we saw in the preview chapters shares similarities with parts of the Urithiru pillar, with the addition of an unknown metal in the voidrial (more on that distinction later). I suspect the metal is chromium (since it produces an effect similar to allomantic chromium). These suppressors would be the negative polarity; the positive polarity version would be the surgebinding fabrials we've seen time and time again, Soulcasters and Regrowth fabrials. Which would, quite handily, use nicrosil. I think chromium/nicrosil are better than aluminum/duralumin, because Navani knows and would recognize aluminum if it was the voidrial metal. (Oh, yes, what about aluminum in a cage? I've said this already in the airship mechanics thread, but I don't think aluminum is a part of the cage in Navani's airship. I think it's interfering with aspects of an already existing conjoiner fabrial, but I haven't seen anything since then to change my mind and cause me to think it's part of the cage, especially if Navani concludes her lecture without mentioning aluminum cages. Jury's still out, of course, until the Part is done and Navani's epigraphs are all revealed. But I'm not expecting us to see any mention of aluminum in a cage.) So the critical question from the paragraph before last should be: did I just suggest that Soulcasters need nicrosil? Well, yes and no. This comes down to the distinction between old fabrials and new fabrials. Fabrials of both kinds are all about a spren manifesting itself through a gemstone to cause certain effects. But old fabrials don't have cages; that's the difference Navani notes between the captured voidrial and the gemstone pillar. There's an unknown metal in the voidrial; the pillar has only been described as a bunch of gemstones. I believe that old fabrials had intelligent spren who would consciously manifest the effects upon request utilizing the fabrial's gemstone. That's why you can replace gemstones on a Soulcaster; the spren isn't trapped in the gems, it's using the gems as a conduit. But new fabrials capture more animalistic spren, and they need to be externally coerced into responding certain ways. Trap them inside the gemstone and prod them with certain metals, and they will produce the same effects that an old-fabrial-spren would produce willingly and Intentionally. So the old Surgebinding fabrials don't need nicrosil, because there is no prodding and no cage required. If they want to make brand new Surgebinding fabrials, they would need nicrosil. That all being said, I'm not 100% convinced that nicrosil/chromium are the metals for Surgebinding/suppressing. There is a big gap in my understanding of Mistborn's primer cubes, specifically how they are able to resonate with and replicate other Metallic Arts. Way back when, right after Bands of Mourning came out, I posited that there were two new metals involved in primer cubes: one to provide power (ettmetal), and one to resonate with the specific effect (some unknown metal 2). I wound up asking Brandon about that in person shortly thereafter (which is what confirmed ettmetal as harmonium), so I let the theory slide; godmetals are funky, I'm not gonna complain if ettmetal has multiple effects in a single primer cube. But now I'm wondering if the idea is worth revisiting, that maybe whatever metal is associated with Surgebinding fabrials is also in primer cubes, and in both applications it takes the imprint of a form of Investiture and lets it be replicated. Which could be nicrosil, for what it's worth. But going back to the metal accounting I did up in my third paragraph, I'm back to considering the possibility of two new metal/alloy pairs which interact with Investiture in general (and the Metallic Arts in particular) in new ways. Thanks for coming along for the ride; that's where I'm at right now. We've got a bunch to learn about fabrials in the book, still, so I expect I'll be revising my theories a few times and posting a more fully-fleshed-out one in its own thread shortly after release. But if I've missed any important tidbits (like kinds of metals used in existing fabrials, or new fabrial types I haven't accounted for), please let me know. I'll be the first to admit this post is woefully uncited, so I would not be surprised if I missed some key pieces.
  6. I may just be overthinking this, but now that I've overthought it a little bit more, here's why I'm getting confused: We've seen Renarin use normal Progression. And we've seen him see the future, which I assume is Voidish Illumination. He has a lack of Lighweaving, so it appears he does not have regular Illumination. So that caused me to wonder if he's starting to pick up Voidish Progression of some sort. The glowing orbs aren't an end to themselves; they would do something else when he used them, but he's dismissing these precursors before performing the real magic because he doesn't know any better. There are other issues baked in there. We've seen Fused use Lighweaving, so is Renarin really using Voidish Illumination? Alternatively, if he's picking up a third power, maybe he's just starting to learn real Illumination (as a sign that perhaps Glys is naturally uncorrupting himself)? Or this could be a unique Resonance to powers that are never normally paired? So that's why I'm saying I have no idea. Because I do have a lot of ideas and a lot of assumptions that need to be challenged, none of which I believe are defensible. So I'm gonna hope we get payoff in this book, because I don't see enough ground to stand on a position yet.
  7. Spren respond to different types of metal in different ways. I wonder if we'll see any similarities to the Metallic Arts. Or if silver is one of the metals involved (which isn't Allomantic). Or what, if any, the aluminum has; as I've said in my detailed thread on conjoiners, I don't think what was described on the Fourth Bridge involves aluminum in the cage; rather, it's the aluminum box blocking effects like we saw in Oathbringer. Secret passages in the chasms. Is this new? Or is it, like I predicted in the Way of Kings Prime thread, something older that was discovered and repurposed? "Veil, however, hadn’t pushed this mission solely to gather evidence for Dalinar. She hadn’t even done it because the Ghostbloods saw Ialai as a threat." Looks like we've still got some dual motives going on. "The hardest thing in the world for Kaladin to do was nothing." Ah, the Fourth Oath again. "Leshwi hummed a loud tone, and the gemstone on her spear began to glow, sucking Stormlight from her prey." Is the humming functional? Moash didn't need to do anything else to kill Jezrien, and that looked similar. Although it wasn't quite the same; taking Stormlight vs something funky about Jezrien's soul and the Oathpact. And there's no hum when she uses it on Kaladin later, so I don't think the hum activates it. Just an affectation, Leshwi interacting with Rhythms. "“Then what are you so worried about?” Navani asked, making a notation on her list. Nearby, Renarin had stepped up to the family with the sniffling children. He summoned a small globe of light, then began bouncing it between his hands. Such a simple thing, but the children who saw it grew wide-eyed, forgetting their fear. ... Renarin couldn’t do that. He could only summon lights, and they did strange, unnatural things sometimes..." I've got nothing. No clue what these lights could be. Voidish Progression, maybe? "She could visit it in person if she wished, using the Oathgates—but something felt different about these visions. ... “I didn’t see anything, Brightness,” Rushu said. “But... I felt something. Like a pulse, a powerful thump. For a moment I felt as if I were falling into eternity...”" Oathgates are apparently functioning to get them into the Cognitive. What's different about what Dalinar does is that it also taps into the Spiritual. Is Navani the only one hearing this tone? "“And I’ve read the journals.” The ones Jasnah would give her, anyway. Storming woman." Gotta save something for Jasnah's flashbacks. "“We’re looking for something else,” Navani said, glancing at Dalinar—then shielding her watering eyes. She blinked, then waved for Rushu to follow her to withdraw back to the nearby command post. “There’s someplace beyond Shadesmar, a place where Dalinar gets this power. Once long ago, the tower was maintained by a Bondsmith like my husband—and from what the spren have said, I conclude that the tower got its power from that place beyond Shadesmar as well.”" Does "like my husband" mean Stormfather Bondsmith? Does it mean Sibling Bondsmith? More interesting implications, since Melishi's power was still active after the abandonment of the tower. I'm guessing it could be any Bondsmith to provide power - if it was a specific Bondsmith spren involved, then the tower would break whenever that Bondsmith would die, unless there was some sort of handoff/retirement/waiting in the wings. The fabrial-like functions of the tower itself would be independently contingent on the Sibling's integration. So we've still got power as long as there's any Bondsmith to manage it, but the functions stopped working when the Sibling retreated.
  8. I expect this will be the last week we get two chapters; we're only getting through Chapter 19, and one chapter a week from this point on will give us Chapter 19 on the 10th, a week before release. (Although we're about up at the SDCC reading, so it will fill like even less.) Thoughts on this week's chapters: "Forcing herself to stay in character, Veil gazed up with wonder and confusion, then shied back against the chasm wall, startling a cremling with dark purple colorings." Aimia watch, DefCon 3. "Mraize had explained about this group and their efforts to bring back the Heralds—who had actually never been gone. Gavilar had led them along, used their resources—and their hearts—to further his own goals. During that time, they’d briefly been important movers in the world." So Gavilar didn't come out of the Sons of Honor; he was much like Shallan and the Ghostbloods, using them for his own purposes somehow. I'm trying to keep this Sons of Honor plotline in perspective. Based on Part 1 being the climax of a "hypothetical" book whose contents cover the intervening year, I'm thinking that they really are going to be wrapped up pretty soon. But what about Restares? He's had his name thrown around a few times, and we've gotten zero payoff for that. Fifty honorspren as the hard cap. There's our hints towards the publisher's summary; not that honorspren are no longer willing, but that only a small group will, and now they need to convince the main body. This is still pretty substantial; the Recreance vision had, what, 200 Windrunners? The duels are another very big echo from Way of Kings Prime. "He hadn’t expected to find honor among the enemy." The singers were of Honor, originally. "They had trained for millennia with their powers, and they could fly forever without running out of Voidlight. They only drained it to heal, and—he’d heard—to perform the occasional rare Lashing." Very interesting. I'd been wondering if the Fused Surgebinding was a recent invention, but now it seems that they've had it as long as they've been Fused. When they find a new order of Fused (like in the previous chapters), it's not that the Fused discover a new power; it's just that the humans meet a new kind. (Which, looking back on it, can probably be inferred from Moash seeing nine kinds of Fused, but I wasn't sure that all nine kinds had Surgebinding yet, or if they were aligning themselves into groups more thematically in anticipation of discovering powers. But that seems pretty settled, at this point.) "More importantly, it was set with a gemstone at its base. If the weapon struck Kaladin, that gemstone would suck away Kaladin’s Stormlight and render him unable to heal—a potentially deadly tool against a Radiant, even one infused by Dalinar’s perpendicularity." Sounds a little bit like the fabrial epigraph we just got. "including Cord, who carried Amaram’s old Shardbow strapped to her back and wore the full set of Shardplate she’d found in Aimia." Wait, what? What did Rock do with Amaram's Plate, if that's not Cord's?
  9. I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Yes, words can have different meanings. But there is a a natural meaning to the word "soar" that I think everyone would agree encompasses any mechanism that keeps an airship aloft. Sure, it's possible that there's a specific, technical definition of "soar" that would specifically mean movement in both a vertical and a horizontal axis simultaneously - but in order for the word "soar" to be used against my model (or any model), there needs to be some indication from the text of that definition being the operative one. "Alternate" is sort of the opposite case. There is a natural definition and use of the word, which does not fit with the model of two concurrently active lattices. (Specifically, with the vertical one always being on when it's in flight. There's nothing to alternate with.) Is it possible to redefine the word "alternate" to somehow encompass this? I mean, technically yes, anything is possible with the malleability of language. But, again, there would need to be some sort of indication in the text of that redefinition, this time to include the scenario you're describing; which there is not. (Everything I have seen draws from the "isolate plane of motion" phrase, which is not conclusive in and of itself, and I have presented an alternate interpretation of that phrase.) The natural sense is, however, consistent with my model. Yes, even if both lattices are active at the same time while you're at rest (which is what I said in my original post), the fact that they overlap during the alternation doesn't mean it's not alternation. When theories and the text are in contradiction, you should not deconstruct the meaning of the text so that the theory can fit into an expanded definition. Instead of twisting the text to fit theories, you need to twist theories to fit the text. When I first read the chapter, my initial impression was a partial disjoining, the same as the majority of people in this thread. But, as I studied the words of the passage more carefully and rigorously, I saw that it didn't actually fit with the descriptions. But I'm not using the theory as a foundation to change the interpretation of the descriptions, because that would be a backwards way to theorize. What is this supposed to mean? What about Navani's previous platform experiments hints towards fabrials only acting in a single direction? You need to be specific in your references if you're going to use it as the foundation for your explanation. I'm having a hard time tracking your arguments here, but I'll take a crack at addressing what you've raised. First, yes, disjoining is an unusual phenomenon caused by aluminum. That's explicitly laid out in the paragraph on aluminum: "The real advancement had come as they’d learned to use aluminum to isolate motion along a plane, and even change the vectors of force. The end result was chulls that could pull for a while, then be turned around—the gemstones temporarily disjoined—to march back the other direction, as all the while the airship continued in a straight line." The end result of aluminum is temporarily disjoining gemstones. Second, I was not saying that there were only two states. I was saying that posters in this thread were using the same word, "disjoined," to apply to both the normal operation of a spanreed and to the phenomenon caused by aluminum. I didn't mention the third state, "on," specifically, but that was because nobody was using incorrect terminology to describe it, not because I don't believe it to exist. Third, you're talking about how spanreeds work, but where are you getting information? You're saying that spanreeds won't join if they're not properly aligned. How do you know that they won't still join, but that the writing will be illegible because the pen's movements won't interact with its environment the same way on both ends? None of the passages I've looked at go that in-depth into the specific functioning of spanreeds. Fourth, the start-stop method of movement is not inconsistent with the text. You say the phrase "in a straight line" contradicts it, but you need to look at the entire passage; it says "while" the ship moves in a straight line. And what's the "while," the time period over which the ship moves in a straight line? "The end result was chulls that could pull for a while, then be turned around—the gemstones temporarily disjoined—to march back the other direction, as all the while the airship continued in a straight line." The chulls are not moving in a straight line; they're going back and forth. But the ship is not changing orientation. Sure, it's moving forward and stopping, but you can continue in a straight line with an irregular speed. And besides, even if you did disjoin the fabrials while the chulls and airship were still in motion (which I do believe is possible), and if you assume that you can keep the vertical lattice active at all times (which I don't believe is possible, but will entertain for the purpose of this example), you would still have to wait for both to be at rest before starting up again. The speeds of the two halves of the fabrial would not be aligned, which (like I said above) we don't know exactly what effect it would have. It might not rejoin at all, in which case you have to let the ship coast to a stop. Or it might rejoin, but the different speeds would mean you'd essentially have a car crash every time you had to turn the chulls around, which would be very bad for the structural integrity of the airship and the fabrial. Since, at this level of technology, there's no feasible way to match speeds of chulls and airship, the only way you know they're at the same speed would be when they're not moving. [Four and a half, if your ship is too good at coasting, it's actually going to be more efficient to stop completely. Distance traveled is the integral of your velocity; so what does your velocity look like when you're coasting? It's a line with a decreasing slope; the area under the curve is a right triangle the height being v0 (your initial velocity), the base being t1 (the time it takes you to cost to a stop). The amount of distance "lost" during your maneuver would be subtracting the area under that curve from the area under the curve of steady movement over that time period; a horizontal line at v0 for t1. Since it's a right triangle, the amount of distance lost is the same as the amount of distance traveled, so you waste v0 * t1 / 2. However, if you come to a complete stop, you're distance travelled is 0 (since you're not moving) times t2, so the amount of distance lost is v0 * t2. When will it be more efficient to keep coasting? When v0 * t1 / 2 < v0 * t2. Which simplifies to when t1 < 2t. So, if your ship coasts to a stop in more than twice the time it takes to turn around, you're actually less efficient. Granted, we don't have any specific numbers to apply to this, but it's to give a general sense that coasting isn't necessarily more efficient than hitting the brakes.] Sixth, I don't see what the problem is with the ship being pushed by the wind when the chulls are being turned. If it's anchored to the vertical lattice, that is against a cliff face, so it does have some resistance to turning that will keep the ship from spinning freely. But even if it does turn some, there won't be a problem rejoining, since the entire purpose of disjoining the horizontal lattice is so that you can turn the chulls independently from the ship and rejoin them at the end with both sides having different orientations. If the ship turned a little bit during that process, you just turn it back using whatever process you normally would use to turn it. (Which I assume would be just having the chulls rotate their lattice, but they might have other tricks involving their fans, for all I know.) No, we cannot conclude that at all. You haven't provided any evidence. Chulls aren't fast, but at the bare minimum they're apparently faster than a horse-drawn carriage over a long distance (per the numbers I showed up above), and no amount of disagreement over the mechanics of aluminum interaction can make the ship move faster than the chulls can pull it. So the relevant questions here are "how much faster are chulls than a horse-drawn carriage" and "how much time is spent turning the chulls around with respect to how long they pull and how long it takes the ship to coast." We don't have specifics to put any actual numbers on any of those, so I don't see how you can conclude this is inconsistent with my interpretation. The comparison I made wasn't chulls to horses - it was chulls to a horse-drawn carriage, where long-term endurance is going to be the big factor. We're given a more useful reference in the text - faster than "double speed" of a marching army, which will be about 4 miles an hour (the "forced march"). Now, the numbers aren't quite matching up for me here; you're not going to be able to march an army around the clock, so say we get down to 12 hours a day, which means a force march will average 2 miles an hour over its duration. A team of chulls, even if they move slower than humans, could pull around the clock, so even if they only pulled at 3 miles an hour, they'd be able to sustain that over the entire duration and result in being faster than a marching army. And now I realize another one of my assumptions. I've taken the "5 knots" and assumed it means, exactly, the 5 knots as defined on Earth. But none of the other units of measure match up; Rosharan feet aren't Earth feet, Rosharan weeks aren't earth weeks, so on and so forth. So the 5 Rosharan knots, which seems unreasonable, might correspond to 2.6 Earth knots (which is 3 Earth miles per Earth hour). In terms of a pulley system on the horizontal lattice. There is a pulley system required for the vertical lattice, and we're told about it. If there was a pulley on the horizontal lattice, it would have been mentioned as well.
  10. One lattice needs to be active. Both are capable of supporting the weight of the airship; the horizontal lattice is sitting on the ground.
  11. Man, you've all been busy. Let me try and catch up. I won't bother quoting and tagging people, since I'm sure you're all still reading this thread anyways. Partial Inhibition First, there are a lot of suggestions that the aluminum lets both sets of fabrial lattices be active at the same time. Under this model, the Shattered Plains set has been unhooked from vertical motion, and the Urithiru set has been unhooked from horizontal motion, and that unmooring is accomplished through aluminum interactions. This is, in fact, inconsistent with the text. We're told, expressly, that the ship flies through alternating uses of the horizontal and vertical lattices. They are not both active at the same time. It seems the largest source for this idea is the phrase "isolate motion along a plane," which has been elevated to the single most important phrase in the entire passage. But I see it being interpreted in a vacuum. "What could 'isolate motion along a plane' mean? Ah, it must be that a conjoiner only responds along one axis." But the phrase is actually part of some classic technobabble: "they’d learned to use aluminum to isolate motion along a plane, and even change the vectors of force." How are you supposed to know what that means? By looking at the very next sentence, which is what I think is the most important phrase in the passage. "The end result was chulls that could pull for a while, then be turned around." That's the only place that aluminum is brought up, that it lets them pull this trick with the chulls. The mechanisms for vertical and horizontal motion had already been established prior, with no mention of aluminum. So, when we interpret the technobabble phrase (isolate motion along a plane and change the vectors of force), what does it mean when viewed through the lens of the practical application in the sentence that follows it? You can turn the chulls without turning the ship (isolating the chull's motion across the plane of the planet's surface) and have the force exerted by the chulls act in the opposite cardinal direction (changing the vectors of force). The technobabble phrase is describing the disjoining and rejoining phenomenon, not some partial inhibition of combined motion. Now, this isn't to say that partial inhibition is impossible. It would certainly be a very useful advancement. But we can achieve a complete explanation of how this particular airship functions, and we can do it without utilizing this phenomenon, so I don't think it's been accomplished yet by Navani and her team. Potential Dissimilarities to Spanreeds There have been some suggestions that the larger conjoiner/reverser fabrials maybe can't be turned off, and that's why they need aluminum. But this isn't the first time they've been used; they're the exact same fabrials Navani used for her archery towers that they brought with them onto the Shattered Plains during WoR. If they couldn't be turned off, you wouldn't be able to bring both halves with you; when you a platform east onto the Shattered Plains, the counterweight would have to go west. I've seen some references to Azure's aluminum room in Oathbringer and how spanreeds didn't work. This looks to be the exact same phenomenon as what I'm saying is used for disjointing, so I'm not quite sure why it appears to be brought up as a counterpoint. Side note, I'm seeing some terminology used inconsistently within the thread. (I probably contributed without realizing it, but I'm not gonna reread my OP right now with an eye towards it. Have you seen how long that thing is?) Disjoining is what Navani says they can do with aluminum, and that lets you misalign your force vectors. Just regular turning off a spanreed isn't disjoining; I guess that would be deactivating? I'll keep an eye out next time I'm rummaging through the relevant passages to see if we have something more specific. But let's make sure that we all mean the same thing when we say "disjoin." Curvature of the Planet Conjoiners and reversers do, obviously, work when moved notable distance across Roshar, where they're going to at different angles with respect to the planet. We can hand-wave it away as some Spiritual alignment with the planet; but I think we can do some more substantial hand-waving. I think a conjoiner fabrial moving tangentially through a gravitational field can have its "dice" (or baby bowl, or gyroscope, or what-have-you) independently affected. It's going to be a property of how this exact fabrials interacts with gravitational fields. So, at the end of the day, Roshar's gravity is what will align the dice in each fabrial down so that the perspectives of both spanreeds make sense. This is similar to what I've suggested with iron Feruchemy, where you can get infinite energy by putting two Feruchemists on opposite ends of a Ferris Wheel and having them alternately store. (Alternating, you guys. One's on, then the other's on.) Where does this infinite energy come from? I suggest that iron metalminds lose/gain Investiture when they move vertically through a gravitational field; that loss of Investiture is what's powering the "perpetual motion," so you won't wind up with as much Investiture stored in your metalmind. When gravity starts to screw with your math, you just need to find some way to make gravity work for your purposes. This would have the added benefit of letting Rosharan spaceships, once they're out of a gravity well, potentially use Lashings to create artificial gravity fields and change the direction their fabrial is acting in. EDIT: I forgot to mention that this can also solve the mysterious inefficiencies. The interaction with the planet's gravitational field is where the inefficiencies come from; your conjoined motion is dragging on the planet itself. That's gonna give us the equal and opposite of our inefficiency terms, so all's right with the universe. It also gives an easy out for space travel with no gravitational fields. Useless Reversers I don't think there's any problem, inherently, with conjoiners being able to accomplish basically all that reversers are able to do. Looking at Mistborn again, you've got steelpushing and ironpulling, and man is steelpushing a whole lot better in basically every sense. But ironpulling has specialized edge cases where it's useful, both on its own and in concert with steelpushing. It's not worthless just because it's worse. And there are subtle differences in a reoriented conjoiner, vs a reverser. Like I showed in my original post, a conjoiner will only act in the opposite direction for 2 axes; you can't get all 3 inverted. This is actually going to be what kills the suggestion of a conjoiner/reverser double lattice pulled by chulls. When you flip to the reversers, the weight of the ship is going to push the chulls into the air. (A reoriented conjoiner could work, as long as you know that the ship will turn the opposite way when you're going in reverse. But, from the text, we're told the mechanism they use, and it's done through a single horizontal lattice and turning the chulls. Maybe they'll get there one day.) My gut says this is also going to have some substantial implications on lattices themselves, and that reoriented conjoiner lattices used as a reversal lattice would be more likely to add super strains and stresses to the internal framework of the airship. (Because 2 of the axes are acting opposite, and 1 is acting with.) The Specific Motion of the Airship Yes, this thing would be an ungainly beast, moving in fits and starts like a Driver's Ed student in a stick shift. That's going to be the case no matter how you slice up the aluminum applications; the motion of the chulls and the ship are tied together, so when you stop the chulls to turn them around, you stop the ship. We're not applying pure force to the ship; we're tying the ship's motions to the motions of another object. It's not an RC car with an engine; it's that plastic popper pusher thing. (My secondary goal of this thread is to fill everybody's Amazon suggestions with the most bizarre items.) The speed they went is 5 knots, which is just under 6 miles per hour. That's not very fast. This is actually faster than a horse-drawn carriage, which according to the Internet can pull about 4 miles an hour maybe. So these chulls are pulling at a good clip, and they must not be wasting a lot of time turning the ship around.
  12. Basically two of these bad boy baby bowls: The outer ring is the fabrial itself, and the interior bowls are the alignment references. The two interior bowls are conjoined rotationally at all times. When you activate either of the fabrials, you'll permanently align the ring to its bowl; basically drive a nail through all the layers, so when you spin the ring, you also spin the bowl. And when both are activated, you align the interior bowls positionally as well. The only way to get the interior bowls aligned in opposite directions would be to use aluminum to temporarily disjoin them rotationally. The conjoining reference field must always be active, even when both fabrials are off, or else you'd be able to just spin the chulls around while it's off and call it a day. But we know that nothing is positionally locked in place until everything is on, since you need to turn both spanreeds on to start typing. So that's why we need this inelegant invisible entwined gyroscope stuff, to basically tie a conjoined pair to a cardinal direction even when one or both halves is off.
  13. Then there would be even less of a need for aluminum, because if there were two sets of fabrials, you could definitely just turn one off and move the fabrials independent of one another. But the text does specify that there are only two lattices, which are alternated between: one for vertical, one for horizontal. What you suggested would be three lattices: two for horizontal (which are switched between), and one for vertical. It's the classic steelpush physics problem. Brandon is coming up with end results based on what is intuitive to him, but that doesn't mean it's self-consistent when analyzed. At least, not without some work on the analyst's part. Which, in this case, seems to be a minor restriction retroactively applied to spanreeds.
  14. So, we've got some fancy new fabrial applications from RoW chapter 3. This doesn't make sense. But, of course, I can't just come out and tell you why it doesn't make sense. We'll have to build up our theory of conjoiner mechanics so that we can properly evaluate this and show you where I'm getting confused. Conjoiner Basics The way I understand conjoiner fabrials, when you draw a free-body diagram, you treat both halves of the conjoiner as the same object. There's no "force" between the two objects; any forces that act on one act on the entire set. There's an additional "magical friction" term that will act against the direction of movement, whose magnitude is determined by the distance between these fabrials. (This force does not have an equal and opposite, which means we're going to break energy conservation, but we're doing it the opposite way often enough that I think we'll be fine.) I'm going to ignore that for the time being in all of my drawings below, because I can and I feel like it and it won't matter for the sake of this analysis. The opposite of a conjoiner fabrial, a reverser fabrial (which I'm probably going to call a disjoiner on accident, although reverser fabrial is the term used in the Ars Arcana), is going to still apply everything to the same force balance; but when you draw the balance, you're going to have to invert everything across the origin for one of the two halves. For the sake of visualization, let me share a quick example that you can recreate at home yourself using simple six-sided dice. I'm going to use the original Allomancy Dice from Crafty Games, since some of the dice are actually laid out backwards. (Which still perturbs me, but at least I can put it to use here.) For those who aren't familiar with this product, it's a set of regular 6-sided dice, but the 6 face on each dice has been replaced with a different piece of iconography from the Mistborn series. I'm going to use three dice to represent two kinds of fabrials; left and center are a conjoiner pair, center and right are a reverser pair. Lets look at our conjoiner. The two dice will be basically stuck together through invisible wires and always move the same direction. If the left dice moves in the direction of 3, the center dice will move towards its 3. If you rotate left 5-to-3, the center dice will also rotate 5-to-3. Any forces being applied to create those movements and any forces that act in opposition to those movements will be mathematically evaluated together on the same free body diagram. (The sum of all forces equals mass times acceleration; that's how we mathematically relate forces to movement.) Like, for instance, if these dice represent an active spanreed, let's draw the diagram using blue forces being the one writing, and green forces being the one receiving. We'll look at the force balance the moment the pen starts to move towards the right (or towards the 1, for this example). Seems fairly straightforward, right? It's just like holding two pens at the same time. (Cue the Bart Simpson super chalk holder.) For a reverser fabrial, look above at the center dice and the right dice. You'll see that each of the six faces is oriented oppositely. (For those who are not familiar, the opposite faces on a six-sided dice should always add to 7. 1&6, 2&5, and 3&4 are all on opposite sides of each other.) If you try to do this with two identical dice, it will never work. (Go ahead, try it. I dare you.) You need to have dice that are mirror images of one another (opposite handedness or chirality, if you prefer those terms). Line up the 1, 2, and 3 as shown below to check if your dice are mirror images of each other or not. And here's where the mathematical trick comes in; your force balance is drawn using the face numbers as reference. Depending on which dice you start with for drawing your force balance, half of your lines will look super weird; gravity going up and stuff like that. But that's okay, just focus on the face numbers and trust the math. If I take my two dice above (from the first dice image) and say that they're one of Navani's early fabrial towers caught in a highstorm, with blue being the counterweight and orange being the archery platform: When we calculate the sum of the forces and determine our final direction of acceleration, it will be in terms of a face. And, looking up at the two dice (way far above; you can scroll up, it's okay, I'll be here when you get back), you'll see how the direction specified by the force balance makes it so the dice move in opposite directions in real life, in the absolute terms. I drew up the free body diagram in terms of stable operation, where the counterweight is sitting on the ground. But imagine they're in an intermediate position, where both the counterweight and the platform are in midair, so the normal force of the ground and the static friction aren't there. You've got a lot of net force in direction 2; referencing our dice drawing, that sends the center dice down and the right dice up. You've got a little bit more wind on the platform driving it towards its face 6, so the counterweight will actually move against the wind. But everything is going to happen relatively slowly, since forces that act in the same direction in real life (wind pushing, gravity pulling) are being opposed on the free body diagram. In terms of rotation, things get really easy. If I take my center dice above and rotate it 3-to-5, envision which way it will move. Now, look at how the rightmost dice will move. You need to remember that 5 is opposite 2, and 3 is opposite 4. Do you see it? The dice rotate exactly the same direction from an absolute perspective! So reverser fabrials still rotate together; only linear movements will be opposite. Navani's Airships I've got three dice in my example, and that's been intentional the whole time. It will represent the Fourth Bridge; the left-most dice is the chulls, the center dice is the airship itself, and the right-most dice is the cliffside arrangement. The center dice will technically represent two halves from two different fabrial arrays; it's got a lattice of conjoiner fabrials with the chulls, and a lattice of reverser fabrials with the cliffside. But I'll just represent it with a single dice, since it will be two dice who occupy the same space and have their orientations locked together by being built into the same ship. The key is that you can't move when both of these fabrial arrays are active. (I mean, you can, but it would connect the chulls with the cliffs. At best, everything would grind to a halt; at worst, you'll be playing a very sad game of 52-gemstone-pickup.) Here's the sequence of activating and flying: Airship starts on the ground. Cliffside reversal lattice starts at the top of the cliff. Activate the reversal lattic. Pull the cliffside down; the airship will rise up. Activate the chull conjoiner lattice. Release the reversal lattice. The conjoiner lattice is now supporting the weight of the airship. Move the reversal lattice side-to-side. The airship will move with it. When you need to reorient the conjoiner lattice, stop the airship. Activate the reversal lattice to take the weight of the ship. Deactivate the conjoiner lattice. Reorient your conjoiner lattice. Back to step 3. Deactivated Interactions and the Aluminum Puzzle At first, I couldn't figure out how aluminum fit in to all of this. Let's take a look at the behavior of the these fabrials when they are inactive. It's a little tricky, because the actual function of spanreeds isn't described in detail all that much. What I thought was that, when spanreeds are deactivated, the dice are essentially unlocked from one another. You can move/rotate one dice, and the other doesn't move at all. Before you activate them, it's very important to have the dice aligned properly with their surroundings; the spanreed boards are described as having levels on the sides, and it's got a dot you need to start the spanreed at. But let's engage in a thought experiment to understand the ramifications of this model. Let's say Jasnah and Navani are in the middle of a spanreed conversation. Jasnah gets kicked out of her desk (don't ask me how, it's just a thought experiment), so she deactivates her spanreed, goes across the aisle, and sits down at another desk that faces the opposite cardinal direction. She sets up her spanreed board again from scratch and turns it on. Is Navani going to be writing upside down? Or will Jasnah, as a part of setting up her spanreed, orient it properly, regardless of the cardinal direction the board is facing? In my first model (of the dice being unlocked from each other whenever both fabrials aren't on), there would be no problem. The reference frame is based on the spanreed itself, not an absolute sense of the cardinal directions. Essentially, you both turn your dice to an agreed-upon position and set your board and inkwell accordingly. This means you don't have to take the curvature of Roshar into account, and you don't need to align your board in a certain cardinal direction every time. (While levels are mentioned on the sides of the boards, there is no mention of a compass.) If Jasnah's at a desk facing south, and Navani's at a desk facing north, the dice wouldn't be facing quite the same direction in an absolute sense; but when Jasnah pushes her pen in the direction of 3, Navani's moves in the direction of her 3. But that, in and of itself, should be enough to enable the chull trick, which Navani says requires a new advancement in aluminum. What gives? The only solution I could come up with is that cardinal direction must matter in spanreeds, and you need to use aluminum to mess with that orientation. The problem has never been mentioned with spanreeds, but if it didn't exist, there wouldn't be anything for aluminum to solve. So let's make our model more complicated and account for it. We've assumed conjoiner fabrials are dice. But now, let's assume conjoiner fabrials contain dice; they've got a little incorporeal dice in the center of their gemstone. So now you've got interactions between each object and their incorporeal dice, and between the incorporeal dice themselves. When both halves are off: There is limited interaction between the object and the dice. The dice will move side-to-side with the object, but it will not rotate. The two dice can move independently side-to-side, but there is nothing to cause them to rotate. When only one half is on: There is a stronger interaction between the object and the dice. The dice will move side-to-side and rotate with the object. The invisible dice are not locked in side-to-side movement, but they are locked in rotation. (So, if you turn the half of the fabrial that's on or that's off, the dice in the receiving fabrial won't change orientation, so you won't be able to pull the chull trick.) When both halves are on, then you lock in side-to-side movement and rotation. You are fully conjoined. This is needlessly complicated... but it gives us a place for aluminum to show up. Placing one half in an aluminum box will be the only way to allow independent rotation of the dice, so you activate your fabrial, put it in an aluminum box, and rotate it without affecting the fabrial on the other side. The Future of Conjoiners I think this is foreshadowing a science fiction application, the same way Mistborn's getting its seeds laid with ettmetal, time bubbles, and mechanical Feruchemy. I envision the Rosharan space fleet operating from conjoiner/reverser fabrial centers on the planet itself. There is a distance limit to conjoiners, of course; however, according to the Ars Arcanum, that's due to the method of creation, so I fully expect that will be overcome by the time late eras of the Cosmere roll around. In Conclusion I've couched everything in terms of dice that are locked so they move together. The actual math would probably be more elegant, but I (and I suspect all the readers) will not be able to internalize it and understand it as quickly quickly. We'll probably need some true math if we wanted to understand how to incorporate the curvature of Roshar into the situation. But let's at least see how the book plays out, first. We're only in chapter three. In trying to understand this application of fabrial science, my confusion arose from the airship mechanisms being concerned with absolute cardinal directions, while the spanreeds apparently did not. I can only conclude that spanreeds do indeed care about cardinal direction, but that has never been stated, for otherwise I don't see what problem they need aluminum to overcome.
  15. I think we have a good enough sense of the broad timeline, if not all the specifics, from the combination of the gemstone archive, the in-universe Words of Radiance, and Dalinar's visions. The notable events are the Abandonment of the Tower, the Recreance Event, and the Death of Honor. The gemstone archives all happened before all three of these events, and their messages reference the withdrawal of the Sibling, the failure of the Urithiru tower, and the plan to destroy the Voidbringers (but not its execution). But that takes us to about Chapter 30 in Words of Radiance, where we learn that Melishi returned to his tent (another reference to the abandonment of the tower, IMO) and changed his plan. Chapter 32 mentions the execution of Kazilah (who I think is the speaker of the "I foresaw it" gemstone, a Radiant with a corrupted spren like Renarin). Chapter 38 has the Recreance proper, which utilizes Melishi's unique powers. And since the events of Chapter 38 are recorded in Honor's visions, it was at some point after this that he died, created the visions, and merged (so to speak) with the Stormfather. In terms of "hurt," I thought we had a Syl passage saying the Stormfather was hurt in the Recreance, but I'm unable to track it down. The forums are full of references to it, but the only passage I see quoted is from Pattern: Which, while I think it would be a bit of a non sequiter if the Stormfather wasn't bonded, the strict wording does allow for an unbonded Stormfather. I'll need to keep digging, see if I can find the passage I'm thinking of, because that really is the cornerstone of my view that Melishi was bonded to the Stormfather, and if that passage doesn't exist then there isn't much to stand on. (Semi-related, I also suspect that part of why Honor's CS merged with the Stormfather was because the Stormfather was dying from the Recreance, and that was specifically how he survived.) But the Sibling being hurt and retreating, I don't think necessarily has anything to do the Recreance. I think the content platespren provide a good contrast - they're not bonded (and in fact their bond has been broken), but they're fine where they are. I think the Sibling and the Urithiru tower were mistreated by all the Radiants. The "you hurt them" line isn't saying that humanity, as represented by Melishi, hurt the Sibling through the Recreance. I think it's saying that the Knights Radiant, as a group, collectively through their actions hurt the Sibling and caused it to retreat. I think the "during the Recreance" phrase should be taken as "time of the Recreance," which encompasses the False Desolation and Abandonment of the Tower. Like how the invasion of Poland in 1939 technically wasn't a part of World War II, because war hadn't been formally declared by any parties. In broad timelines, the Sibling fell asleep during the Recreance time period.