Pagerunner

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Pagerunner last won the day on August 19 2018

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About Pagerunner

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    Searching for the Mask of Investiture
  • Birthday 04/29/1990

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    Texas
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    I've read a fair amount of Fantasy: Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, 1/2 of A Song of Ice and Fire. These days, I don't have time for much more than Cosmere.

    I'm also big into Sci-Fi. I used to be crazy for the Star Wars EU, but recent events have hit me hard.

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  1. If Lor has not gone beyond planning stages, then it cannot be part of the worldbuilding for Vax, which is already in canon. If Brandon doesn't get around to incorporating Lor, then what is Vax orbiting?
  2. I was speaking a little hesitantly earlier, but doubling the allomantic push is definitely not strong enough. In that case, a coin hitting a wall would be the same as the allomancer launching a second coin, and we see them launching coins by the fistful. So the increase in force when it hits a wall needs to be magnitudes greater than the force pushing on a solitary coin. Other than that, the principle starts off sound. You don't have to worry about the sum of forces on each object being identical; they don't have to be, that's why the allomancer has a nonzero acceleration while the coin is stationary. You don't have to worry about conservation of energy, since the steelpush is adding energy to the system. I'd say you don't even necessarily have to worry about conservation of momentum, since only certain kinds of interactions conserve momentum. The big one we're concerned with is: every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The Allomantic Normal Force would apply in one direction to the allomancer, and in the other direction to the object the coin is pushed up against. It would be like using your hand to push against a coin, and when the coin hits the wall you reach out with your other hand and push with that as well. There's the practical issue I said before, that doubling the force is not enough to cause the effects we see. Maybe you say that the 'other arm' is stronger, that the ANF could be three, four, ten, twenty times the Allomantic Force. That's when things get a little hairier. You are not only pushing on a piece of metal, but on something else that the metal is touching. (Which doesn't sit well with me philosophically, but hey, let's roll with it for the sake of the example.) This doesn't let you push the coin into the wall any harder than you were already pushing it before you hit the wall; your swole 'other arm' is direcly on the wall, throwing you back, while your wimpy original arm is unchanged. So now, when you push on Vin's earring, the bulk of the force is transferred to Vin herself, not to the earring. Which is counterintuitive, and it also doesn't match what's in the books. If puncturing with a steelpush is beyond the scope of your simulation engine, then you can still go for a souped-up Allomantic Normal Force. It's the first way I've seen to quantify something like an "effective mass" to modify the strength of the push in the first place. But the theory of it isn't quite up to the task of matching everything that's in the books.
  3. I haven't been following the other thread; what is this Allomantic Normal Force? Is it a separate force between the Allomancer and an object in contact with the pushed target? (Which would essentially double the force of the steelpush, which doesn't seem strong enough.) Or is an additive term to the existing steelpush? (Which I don't think would fit the scenario of an immobile Allomancer and immobile target, since the force would feed back on itself iteratively.) @Jofwu's got the wrong model, what you're describing here is Model 2. (Or a slight variation; I said velocity, you're saying acceleration.) Your basis is the acceleration between the allomancer and the coin, and that determines the force. But there are two issues with that: Newton's second law is not F=ma. It is ΣF=ma. You can fudge past the forces on the coin, which just has the Allomantic force and the normal force, by calling it an "effective mass," because the force balance on the coin only has those two terms. But the tricky situations happen when the Allomancer has an additional force, as well, either gravity or a normal force of their own. Like I say in my writeup, there are situations where there is no acceleration, but there is still an Allomantic force. Which changes; you can get in a pushing duel stalemate, nobody's moving; push harder, there's more force, but still nobody's moving. That means the force must be dependent on something other than the acceleration. As far as comparisons to a swimmer, that actually is Model 1. Pushing on the wall or the water, you are exhibiting the same force, and wind up with the same acceleration on the swimmer. The difference is that you are constrained by the extension of your arm. You're thinking in terms of total energy transferred, which is a good way of looking at things. You can calculate it as W=Fd (where distance is how far your center of mass moves before you are no longer able to extend your muscles), or you can do it by integrating your acceleration over the time you are extending your muscles (which will be longer when you are able to push against the wall, because it takes longer to reach full extension because only your body is moving and not your feet [from the reference frame of the wall]). In these scenarios, force is the independent variable, and acceleration is the dependent variable. But that doesn't match with Allomancy, because in the cases in question you are not limited by the extension of your "Allomantic arm."
  4. I'll use some of @Artemos 's gifs from the Impossible Physics of Allomancy thread to describe my emotions in on the subject. Quite appropriate, I know. HOW MY BRAIN REACTS When someone says "These characters don't make any sense." When someone says "these plot points don't make any sense." When someone says "these physics don't make any sense." But when you take the equation and you and then all the math works out perfectly. Mind blown.
  5. You're looking for a transcription of the reading Brandon was doing on the Skyward tour. You'll find it here: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367/#e11593
  6. Hot diggity, Sims 3 and 8 are sweet. That's exactly what we want to see. What's the mass of the coin you're using in these sims, as compared to the allomancers?Can you throw together a simulation for the initial issue, shooting a coin at a wall, with the same relative velocity equations? See if we get the sudden lurch of force on the allomancer when the coin hits the wall? I'm thinking of a hockey stick turned the other way. Exponential is a steep slope that shallows out. I'm thinking of something that starts shallow, and then takes a dive toward the end.
  7. I see you've all been quite busy while I've been away! Lots of good stuff. Let me see if I can get me caught up. I'm not quite following you on the first point. In that model, the behavior (acceleration) of the allomancer is dependent upon three things: the force of the push, the mass of the allomancer, and the force of gravity. The behavior of the coin is not present in the equation (thus the term "decoupled"), and the presence or lack thereof of any normal force on the coin would not affect the behavior of the allomancer. With the introduction of a new force (in the form of the normal force), a discontinuity is expected in the behavior of the coin. But by nature of the model, there should be none in the behavior of the allomancer. Which necessitates the later models. For the second point, I will acknowledge that all those are factors in the force. (And I think I have mentioned them except #4 elsewhere in the thread.) But in the steelpushing examples shown above, the odd behavior happens at a point in the steelpush where none of those particular parameters are changing. None of them can reconcile the differences I identified at the beginning of my writeup. Which is why I'm looking to a sixth parameter, the relative velocity of the allomancer and the target, as also affecting the strength. I think everything for the scope of this topic's analysis of steelpushing is in the two excerpts I have at the beginning of the writeup. I haven't looked too hard into energy/momentum conservation of how Wax plays with forces. In terms of the steelpushing side of things, I think it'd mostly tie down to what Kelsier tells Vin about heavier people being able to push harder. Wax gets to cheat and make himself really heavy. Ironically enough, just the other day I saw a TV show where someone was tying Nightcrawler's limitations of teleportation to things like the different rotational velocities you have at different latitudes and longitudes. But steelpushing is a little bit different. It's explicitly laid out to the reader with physics in mind; Newton's laws, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. There are other harder scientific elements at play in Mistborn specifically: the mystery of cadmium's relationship to FTL travel, the way Wax manipulates his weight. There are things to be said for creating rules to break them, but creating rules that are promptly ignored is a different beast entirely. Most of the models I present, I didn't come up with; they're points of view that other people have had, and they've come into conflict as people discussing the books with one another can't figure out how steelpushing works. It's not lifting the hood for the sake of seeing how it works, it's those funky complicated shapes where different perspectives show you different words. (Like the NYES sculture https://goo.gl/images/vSY1RD). I picked the word "Impossible" in the title of this thread because, to a lot of people, it was apparently inconsistent and didn't make sense. I'm going into this thread trying to come up with something that doesn't have to hand wave past a scenario or two, because, as you said, none of those examples have "properly earned" breaking the steelpushing physics rules to us. I do like a relationship with distance that doesn't go to infinity at close range. I haven't dug too much into specifics, mostly because of a lack of quantifiable data, but I like the general idea of a hockey stick; distinct y-intercept, slow slope, then transition to steel slope, then x-intercept. But as has been said already (and I'm gonna restate because I feel like it), equilibrium in a pushing duel is consistent with observed behavior. Because, from what we've seen, the goal isn't to strike your opponent, but to launch them. Which means the forces they apply to themselves need to be out of balance, not the forces on the coin. It's kind of like tug-of-war. The goal isn't to pull on the rope the hardest; it's to pull on the ground the hardest. A ten-year-old in cleats can beat me if I'm wearing roller blades. (Certain members of my family will say that I will lose even if I am also wearing cleats, but let's not let that get in the way of a good illustration.) The precision to keep a coin in the air lodged between two Allomancers seems to me to be analogous to balancing directly atop a coin. If you're a centimeter off, then timber it should be. But there is enough variance allowed in the vectors to make adjustments and keep yourself centered. If you let the coin drop to the ground, you can't apply force to launch an adversary, so at least one party will attempt to keep the coin suspended. Now this is really interesting. Going back to what I said before, I don't think striking an opponent is what's at stake; it's dislodging them, so fixing the two allomancers isn't going to be a good way to determine the steelpushing resolution. But let's say it does fit for a time, until someone runs out of strength. That's still quite illustrative, since we've seen the coin reach equilibrium without oscillation. So we've got a hiccup to all of our models. Is this using the proportional-to-distance-squared model? No other factors, aside from the proportionality constant being allomancer-dependent? In that case, I'm not surprised it behaves much like a spring - it's going to be pretty much exactly the ideal spring equations, which yield infinite oscillation. An undamped, oscillating system. You need some sort of damping to the equation - friction in springs is a good one to understand. Overdamped systems will oscillate, but slow down. Overdamped systems will approach the equilibrium point and not oscillate. (Doors will automatic closing mechanisms [not fully automated Star Trek doors, but the pneumatic elbow things] will be overdamped; you don't slam the door shut, you ease it closed.) So, we need something that will function like friction in slowing down the movement of our "spring." To keep it from responding too quickly - our really saggy spring that doesn't overshoot when you release tension on it, and doesn't completely close the bathroom door all the way. (I'm not referring to a specific scenario at my old college, no, why would you think that?) I've already gone all in on the relative velocity term, so I'll keep running with that. As the coin is moving away from one allomancer, it will weaken them. (To state more rigoriously: the positive relative velocity causes a weakening effect IN ADDITION to the weakening effect of the increasing relative displacement.) And as the coin is moving towards the other allomancer, it will strengthen them. (Or at least remain at their base strength) That force imbalance will effectively slow down the movement of the coin more than otherwise predicted... it acts in the same direction as friction would on a spring. Without crunching the numbers, I can't be sure, but it's at least possible that properly tuned relative velocity effects could dampen our system and prevent oscillation.
  8. I expect the crux of the issue is narrative in nature. The powers of all ten Surges should be roughly balanced (until you start Ascending and doing weird stuff like Dalinar does). Cohesion has its utility in manipulating surroundings. Division has its utility in destroying things. If they could both work on people, then Cohesion would have essentially all the utility that Division has. Realmatics is less a deterministic foundation, and more a descriptive framework. Brandon takes an effect, and figures out how he can create a system to accomplish that effect. In this case, it's the nature of this particular Surge that it is less able to overcome native Investiture, which lets it accomplish what Brandon wants it to do without encroaching on the territory he's allotted for Division. On Roshar in particular, this may be close to the actual in-universe explanation, too. If the Surges are drawn out of human perception, what they believe the fundamental forces are (which is why I've laid these out as behaving thermodynamically identically in some cases), then the Rosharans believing that the Cohesive force is less able to overcome Investiture than the Divisive force would be enough to make it so in application. This was the line that I used in my OP: "The magic of Surgebinding, in turn, provides specific alterations to the electromagnetic force in order to match the common perception of Roshar." It's not the electomagnetic force that is being resisted; it's the magic itself. And because Division and Cohesion are two different magics, that's why similar alterations in electromagnetic force can be resisted to different extents by the Investiture of objects. A long-winded way of saying "Brandon wants to magics to behave differently, so they do." A little unsatisfying, but no more unsatisfying in my mind than reconciling rocks burning and wood crumbling to dust.
  9. Last month, Brandon replied on Reddit about plans for Lor: This statement seems (to me, at least) to say that the Aethers are still planned for Lor. Both the "plan" and "won't canonize" indicate the same thing, that he's not going to lock himself into anything, but that it is the tentative path forward. Which matches with other recent statements that the Aethers, though present in canon, don't have a developed backstory yet: That presents a pretty big hurdle for Vax being the Aether planet. If Lor is still being planned, then Vax (which has already been mentioned in canon) can't be the latest revision of Vaeria/Lor. And since the Aethers could still potentially remain Yolish magic, then that means that they can't be the magic system whose Initiation Khriss was speaking of in the Elantris Ars Arcanum:
  10. General 2019 events have been created. Please do not add anything more to the General 2018 events (unless it's part of the Nov/Dec 2018 backlog, which should be taken care of shortly in any event). Until these events contain at least one entry, they will not appear on the main page; you can find them from the Events list, or by following the links below: General Reddit 2019, for adding interactions, reports, or direct messages from Reddit. General Twitter 2019, for adding interactions, reports, or direct messages from Twitter. General Signed Books 2019, for any personalized books you receive. Miscellaneous 2019, for any other form of communication or report, including forum interactions. Let's work on filling these up with quality WoBs, why don't we?
  11. Since it refers to refining atium and creating Inquisitors, that leads me to believe it was written during a time when they had access to atium and were creating Inquisitors. Which limits the people I could think of who could obtain that knowledge during that time period to Rashek (who had Ascended and gained a bunch of knowledge about the Metallic Arts) and Khriss (who has her ways of finding things out.)
  12. Peter has edited his comment on the chart. He clarifies that he meant to say "Scadrial," not "Roshar" (duh), and he also says it's not from Khriss. Which reinforces my belief that it is a Final Empire document, created by the Lord Ruler specifically for the creation of Inquisitors.
  13. In interesting tidbit from the Skyward tour about slatrification in the third graphic novel: [Source]
  14. Yeah, you can upload the photo to the event and edit in the text - an Arcanist will take care of linking everything up. We do include RAFOs, so you can add that, too. If it was from the same event, you can upload it there, too. If it was ordered from the website, you can upload it to the General Signed Books 2018 event.
  15. Wow. There's a lot more going on in here than I expected we'd get at this time. Some thoughts: What timeframe is this chart from, in-universe? Since it specifically concerns creating Inquisitors (see the linchpin spike comment), that leads me to believe it's a Final Empire document, one that was actually used to create Inquisitors. Which has some interesting ramifications, with regards to the knowledge of metals like cadmium and lerasium. This information must have been from TLR, gained through his Ascension, which is why it was so comprehensive. I wish I had a better eye for color. Based on the thigh spikes (which aren't any of the four colors next to the quadrant labels), each spike is actually colored according to the specific metal it is. So even though the specific spike placements aren't written down, we'll be able to figure out a large part of it, if someone can appropriately dissect the colors. The Feruchemical and Allomantic tables have colors to use as a go-by. No Hemalurgic symbols. I was expecting a third set of symbols. The linchpin is not explained. It's just there on the chart; but how does it work? Is it a Physical Allomancy (like A.Pewter) that has an added benefit based on its placement? Does it perform a different function entirely, and it doesn't actually steal anything from anyone? Atium needs to be refined. Why? This is a big shot-in-the-arm to an old theory around the internet that had pretty much puttered out, that said atium as they knew and obtained it was actually already an alloy. It acted like a Temporal metal because it was actually a Temporal alloy of a god metal; that was just how the Pits produced it. Refining would be required to remove the "impurity" of the alloyed metal, giving you a "purified atium" (patium? p-atium? atium prime? atrium?) that could be used as a Hemalurgic wildcard. This would also have implications on the last Wax and Wayne title - the Lost Metal being this purified atium. Lerasium's function in Hemalurgy, I'm not sure if it's a confirmation or a refutation of some of my ideas. I thought that all god metals could act like atium, stealing any ability. And technically, lerasium does function like that. But by stealing all, it makes me wonder if the pattern can be extended. Specifically to trellium, which I currently believe is Autonomy's god metal. I was thinking it could steal anything, with the added effects of hiding from Shards that we saw in SoS. But lerasium is sufficiently different from atium (with regards to Hemalurgic usage) that I'm a little less confident in that idea. There is an interesting distinction made on the chart between powers (atium, aliuminum, and eight of the base metals that steal Feruchemy and Allomancy), Investiture (nicrosil), and abilities (lerasium). My gut instinct is that that "powers" is the most limited, and that the other two are each expansions of the concept. Investiture extends beyond Allomancy and Feruchemy - that's how you'd steal Sand Mastery or Surgebinding or other off-world Investiture. And that "abilities" extend to strength, senses, Identity, and the other attributes that can be stolen by Hemalurgy. So, yeah. Lots of fun stuff. Can't wait for the poster.