Focuses on Roshar

[Aradel]

Why does pewter increase physical strength and not senses?

[/rhetorical question]

Maybe it's less of an issue of certain gems granting certain surges, and more an issue of who has the power to pull from a particular gem. I think you're right and stormlight is stormlight, but once it is bound to a gem like a spren would be, it produces pre-determined effects.

Earlier you mentioned that you might be able to acceds ambiant stormlight during a highstorm. Remember that when Kaladin survived the highstorm, he had a gem in his hand that gathered stormlight he could draw from, he didn't pull from the storm directly. I think that shardplate worked the same way for the knights radiant, gathering stormlight for them while protecting them from the wind.

The reason gems are necessary is because raw stormlight is not of honor. I subscribe to the theory that surgebinding is a dual-shard system between honor and cultivation. Though I think that the shards do not share the same focus the way that Ruin and Preservation do. That being said, surgebinding seems to have more steps in its use than a single-shard system should.

If I count every time power is transfered in a known system it comes out looking like this:

Aon-dor: Draw the aon, produce effect.

Alloamancy: Burn the metal, produce the effect.

Feruchemy: Fill the metalmind, tap the metalmind, produce the effect.

Hemalurgy: Charge the spike, insert the spike, produce the effect.

Surgebinding: Let stormlight fill the gems, draw stormlight from the gems, produce the effect.

Both allomancy and aon-dor are powered by a single shard, and need to have only one transfer of power before producing an effect. Hemalurgy, while created by only one shard, needs power from another source and requires an extra transfer of power. Feruchemy was created by two shards, needs power from both of them to work, and so it also requires an extra transfer of power. In surgebinding, a radiant(surgebinder) has to wait for stormlight to fill a gem before they can produce an effect. I believe this is the step where power changes hands from cultivation to honor.

In fact I think the nahael-bond mirrors this process. Cultivation to Honor to Surgebinder.

[Telcontar]

Earlier you mentioned that you might be able to acceds ambiant stormlight during a highstorm. Remember that when Kaladin survived the highstorm, he had a gem in his hand that gathered stormlight he could draw from, he didn't pull from the storm directly. I think that shardplate worked the same way for the knights radiant, gathering stormlight for them while protecting them from the wind.

Actually I meant what I said.

I have an (not very well-founded) idea that one could use Stormlight directly during a Highstorm. Not only because that would have potential for a pretty awesome scene later in the series but because of this:

paperback pg.647

Kaladin felt a deep chill – a rolling prickle of ice – scurry down his spine and through his entire body. The sphere suddenly burst to life in his hand, flaring with a sapphire glow

To me this is Stormlight passing through Kaladin. We have seen that use of Stormlight brings cold with it. Now, if Kaladin could breath the Light in directly instead of just letting it pass through him, that would bring an interesting twist to a fight outside during a Highstorm. A little like when Vin breathes in the mist.

[ReaderAt2046]

To amend that, I can't remember an instance where it was explicitly said that either of them drew from anything but sapphire gems. The closest I can think of is where Kaladin drew stormlight from the gems woven in parshendi beards, but I don't think the book said what gems those were either.

By far, most of the spheres they're described using are spheres used for illunination and cheaper money-spheres. Both are predominately sapphire, which is the most common gem on Roshar.

Actually, the lowest sphere denomination is diamond. We know that Kal's wages are paid in diamonds, so i think that's what he mainly uses. Also, the first time he knowingly uses Light, it comes from a topaz.

[Telcontar]

thank you for helping out!

[Aradel]

Huh, could've sworn they were sapphire...

Oh well, my mistake.

[dj26792]

A lot of people are struggling with ideas of what could be the focus because of things not matching the definitions given by Mad Scientist and Chaos at the start of the thread, not to belittle the genius of Chaos and Mad scientist but has anyone considered that maybe the definitions are wrong rather than peoples ideas, a while back a lot of people seemed quite comfortable with the idea of a spiritual focus for surgebinding and then someone said it couldnt be because it didn't match the definitions WE came up with, but I personally still think the spiritual focus could be right, we don't actually know all that much about what a focus is, we know what is used as a focus in allomancy, or in awakening, but the specific definition of a focus in Realmantic terms is still only a theory.

The focuses we know the most about are the commands in awakening and the metal in allomancy, and from that we have a broad definition it specifies the power, the shape of the metallic structure of pewter allows the thug to be stronger while the tin shape lets the tin-eye see better. The cognitive loop of the command shapes the breath to form the desired effect of the awakening. The shape of the persons spirit determines what kind of spren they attract and thus what powers they get, ie a spiritual focus. The biggest problem with that theory is that our other known focuses are also triggers, burning the metal to gain the effect, saying (thinking) the command triggers the awakening, but we don't know for sure that that is part of being the focus or just a coincidence.

I'm not sure I said that very well so if it makes no sense to you I'll try again but it makes sense to me.

[Aradel]

I'm placing my bets on Binding as Honor's focus.

Dual-shard system where cultivation is given freely and bound by Honor; final answer.

I still have no idea about cultivation's focus though...

[Telcontar]

A lot of people are struggling with ideas of what could be the focus because of things not matching the definitions given by Mad Scientist and Chaos at the start of the thread, not to belittle the genius of Chaos and Mad scientist but has anyone considered that maybe the definitions are wrong rather than peoples ideas, a while back a lot of people seemed quite comfortable with the idea of a spiritual focus for surgebinding and then someone said it couldnt be because it didn't match the definitions WE came up with, but I personally still think the spiritual focus could be right, we don't actually know all that much about what a focus is, we know what is used as a focus in allomancy, or in awakening, but the specific definition of a focus in Realmantic terms is still only a theory.

the thing is, there is three confirmed focuses: metal for the metallic arts, commands for awakening and aon for AonDor.

As we have to work with what we have, they figured out common points between those focuses.

I considered that the definition may be wrong, but as long as there is no better one, I'll work with this one. In addition, it covers my own idea about focuses, so I have no problem with it

The focuses we know the most about are the commands in awakening and the metal in allomancy, and from that we have a broad definition it specifies the power, the shape of the metallic structure of pewter allows the thug to be stronger while the tin shape lets the tin-eye see better. The cognitive loop of the command shapes the breath to form the desired effect of the awakening. The shape of the persons spirit determines what kind of spren they attract and thus what powers they get, ie a spiritual focus. The biggest problem with that theory is that our other known focuses are also triggers, burning the metal to gain the effect, saying (thinking) the command triggers the awakening, but we don't know for sure that that is part of being the focus or just a coincidence.

I'm not sure I said that very well so if it makes no sense to you I'll try again but it makes sense to me.

I believe I understood, I'll try to respond

IIRC the process of burning the metal allows you to channel Preservation's power. So one could say that the shape of the metallic structure of pewter determines how Preservation's power is channeled through your body. Pewter makes the power enhance your strength, endurance and healing.

Commands determine how Endowment's power is channeled into an object. I see Commands a little bit like Aons. You start with a simple one and the more complex it gets, the more difficult it is to create an effect, the more skill is required to use magic.

The Aons determine how Devotion's (?) power is channeled, which effect it is going to produce.

So in my own words the defintion of a focus is the following: The focus of a magic system determines in what particular way a Shard's power is channeled to produce a desired effect.

One could about the process of focussing the Shard's power into producing an effect.

This is of course only rambling because as you pointed out, the definition could be completely false. And because this has already been said, only in other words.

About the spiritual focus. I don't like it, because it doesn't match the definition

No, seriously. The shape of one's spirit, like you call it, only determines who gets power in the first place. People get Invested because of their spirit's shape (honorable). That's different even if you discard the made-up definition:

in Allomancy and Feruchemy Investiture (meaning the process of getting Invested) is genetic. Your genes determine which metals you can use.

In AonDor Investiture happens through the Shaod. It's makes you able to draw Aons.

As to Awakening... If I understand it well enough, then if you have Breath you are Invested. But that only makes you able to speak Commands.

Acting in a particular way, thus shaping you spirit only gives you magical abilities in the first place, it gets you Invested. Attracting a spren and forming a bond is only the process of Investiture as I understand it.

About the triggers. Burning the metal is not the focus but metal itself. Speaking a Command is not the focus but the Command itself. Drawing an Aon is not he focus but the Aon itself. So what you call 'trigger' is the act of using the focus.

Summarizing everything I've said in regard to Surgebinding.

Acting in a particular way gets someone Invested. If someone is Invested he has access to two Surges. To channel the power of Honor (or Cultivation) someone needs to Bind a Surge in a particular way to produce an effect. The trigger would be the use of Stormlight: infusing objects or people, 'bribing' cognitive aspects of object.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Telcontar

[Odium's_Shard]

Ok, I've been away for a little while, but I have returned to find this rather avid debate taking shape. Let me just interject for a moment with a theory of my own, which should help straighten the lines of the arguments.

Firstly, my ideas about the entire 'Gem determines Effect' theory Telcontar and Goradel's Nephew were running, before Reader's helpful (though dampening, but still, thanks) interjection.

As Reader pointed out, it doesn't seem to matter what Gem you use so long as it is filled with Stormlight. This leads me to believe that Brandon, when making Shallan use a Garnet to produce Blood, may just be setting up false 'Chekhov's guns'. It has been known. Look up the definition if you aren't familiar with the technique (which as a writer, I am, and take for granted that other people should...). But onto my theory about the use of Stormlight in a gem:

Kaladin is said to 'infuse' himself with the Stormlight from a gem by 'inhaling' (may be something to do with Body Focus or Order 1, Inhalation). Here, it seems any vessel can be used for the Gem -> Kaladin stage. Here's where it gets sort of complicated (for me to explain, I'd hope you understand).

Kaladin is the vessel used in the particular sort of Surgebinding in which he engages (presumably 'windrunning').

That's right. Not the gem. The gem, in this instance, is not used up or damaged, for it is in no way participating in the Binding. Just Kaladin. So, Kaladin, being filled with Stormlight, now uses it in Order to facilitate a certain Binding (Lashing) of his choice. He then takes the damage we see the gems Jasnah use get (presumably because of the cold placed on them when used immediately [see below]), feeling the cold. It sounded like the same process as gem -> Kaladin in that he 'infuses' other people/objects. However, it is at this instance that I shall (perhaps not without precedence) say that he then 'bends' the Light to perform the tasks, and his sDNA codes for in which ways he is able to bend it using the stages laid out in the 'Three Parts of Magic' (Realmatic theory of Binding).

Firstly, Nahel Bond with spren:

Physical deed -> Cognitive change (personality) -> Spiritual recognition (assuming spren are spiritual beings)

Spiritual spren/altering of sDNA of host -> Cognitive gain of sentience by spren -> Physical link (appearance of spren? Following of spren?)

Secondly, access to Stormlight:

Physical inhalation from source -> Cognitive draw (inner inhalation, if you will) -> Spiritual movement of Stormlight (assuming Stormlight is a spiritual fuel) -> Cognitive exhalation -> Physical exhalation

(this sequence uses both inhalation and exhalation: inhalation is the drawing in of Stormlight, exhalation is letting it go naturally (Kaladin says breathing releases Stormlight faster) but also through things like pores in your skin)

Lastly, Binding (after Stormlight infused):

Physical touch -> Cognitive will of movement -> Spiritual sDNA check (check of Nahel bond?)

Spiritual movement of Stormlight -> Cognitive bending of the Light (thought of which power to use) -> Physical ramification (people stuck to the ceiling, etc)

What's most important here is that Kaladin is the vessel (as would any other KR Windrunners, presumably).

However, in Shallan and Jasnah's case, at no point do they inhale Stormlight, nor glow all over (this would give them away terribly, though). I believe this is because the vessel used in this instance (at the point of the Binding) is in fact still the gem. This explains the entire theory about gem -> Essence relationship, while Kaladin has no trouble using other gems. The Stormlight needs as vessel in order to be used for Bindings. This is pretty obvious throughout all Bindings. However, it is at no point specified what the vessel needs to be. In this case I take Telcontar's point that this is why gems are necessary for Bindings, because they are (as well as appropriately Bonded Surgebinders) one of the few vessels that can take up Stormlight, and at any rate, Highstorms aren't the safest places for more fragile vessels like humans. We tend to break easily.

And so, in accordance with my 'bend the Light' -> produce a Binding/Effect theory, in the case of say Shallan, it was the gem she used as the vessel that determined the particular Effect produced. Because, as somebody earlier pointed out, in the wrong context, the vessel bends the Light akin to a prism splitting Stormlight. However, a Human vessel has access to as many functions as his sDNA and thus Nahel bond allows, the gem only has access to one of the Essences (and perhaps in other Bindings, one of the Bindings, as we are unsure whether all Surges apart from Transformation require Inhalation of Stormlight [because the Body Focus of KR order 1 is Inhalation]).

So a Transformation would go like this:

Physical touch (lets ignore Jasnah for now) -> Cognitive Truth/Giving (as Shallan gives a truth) -> Spiritual check of sDNA/Nahel (and permission given by Truthspren?) -> Cognitive Shadesmar (as in the entire transportation, talking to object, freeing it, all the necessary jobs) -> Physical rendition (goblet -> blood)

This theory (probably not entirely original, its most likely already been suggested, what with the collaboration of devious minds that feed upon this forum) shalt now been dubbed, in truly flowery fashion, as 'The Realmatic Distortion of Stormlight through appropriate Vessels in Surgebinding and other Rosharian magicks'.

Notes:

aka TRDSVSR

'Rosharian' is now completely owned and copyrighted by me unless anyone can otherwise prove that the term has previously been used.

The only counter argument (to my knowledge, at least) that I can perceive to my theory (please find any others) is that the body (in my Realmatic portrait of the inhalation of Stormlight) seems to accept the inhalation of Stormlight before the Spiritual Realm has even checked to see whether it is possible that you can, and, unless these processes are instantaneous, would lead to a rather awkward moment in your chull-training career.

I hope this post was very clear. If you don't understand, tell me, if you don't agree, tell me, if you have a differing opinion for which you have proof, most certainly tell me, and if you do like it, don't keep it to yourself! I might post this theory as its own thread, but am unsure as to whether it is 'encompassing' enough for a full thread on General Theories, or whether it has been previously suggested, bu I hope it served the original purpose of clearing up my standing in the discussions that have been recently taking place on this thread!

Edited March 14, 2012 by Odium's_Shard

[Aradel]

I hope you know that I had to wait for my phone to load the full ip board before I could +1 that.

Subscribe me to the stormlight-vessel-distortion-somthing-or-other theory.

[Zas678]

This is the only reference we have of Surgebinding's Focus. Just thought this would help things.

Book Signing Report

JOSH

Is the focus for Surgebinding the Body Focuses?

MI'CHELLE

Is the body the focus for Surgebinding, I think is what he meant.

[Eric's note: Well, I meant what I said, but whatever. ]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, okay. The Physical?

MI'CHELLE

Yeah.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Surgebinding is... Yeah, kinda. That's a "yeah, kinda."

MI'CHELLE

We'll figure it out in more detail later.

[ReaderAt2046]

Ok, I've been away for a little while, but I have returned to find this rather avid debate taking shape. Let me just interject for a moment with a theory of my own, which should help straighten the lines of the arguments.

Firstly, my ideas about the entire 'Gem determines Effect' theory Telcontar and Goradel's Nephew were running, before Reader's helpful (though dampening, but still, thanks) interjection.

As Reader pointed out, it doesn't seem to matter what Gem you use so long as it is filled with Stormlight. This leads me to believe that Brandon, when making Shallan use a Garnet to produce Blood, may just be setting up false 'Chekhov's guns'. It has been known. Look up the definition if you aren't familiar with the technique (which as a writer, I am, and take for granted that other people should...). But onto my theory about the use of Stormlight in a gem:

Kaladin is said to 'infuse' himself with the Stormlight from a gem by 'inhaling' (may be something to do with Body Focus or Order 1, Inhalation). Here, it seems any vessel can be used for the Gem -> Kaladin stage. Here's where it gets sort of complicated (for me to explain, I'd hope you understand).

Kaladin is the vessel used in the particular sort of Surgebinding in which he engages (presumably 'windrunning').

That's right. Not the gem. The gem, in this instance, is not used up or damaged, for it is in no way participating in the Binding. Just Kaladin. So, Kaladin, being filled with Stormlight, now uses it in Order to facilitate a certain Binding (Lashing) of his choice. He then takes the damage we see the gems Jasnah use get (presumably because of the cold placed on them when used immediately [see below]), feeling the cold. It sounded like the same process as gem -> Kaladin in that he 'infuses' other people/objects. However, it is at this instance that I shall (perhaps not without precedence) say that he then 'bends' the Light to perform the tasks, and his sDNA codes for in which ways he is able to bend it using the stages laid out in the 'Three Parts of Magic' (Realmatic theory of Binding).

Firstly, Nahel Bond with spren:

Physical deed -> Cognitive change (personality) -> Spiritual recognition (assuming spren are spiritual beings)

Spiritual spren/altering of sDNA of host -> Cognitive gain of sentience by spren -> Physical link (appearance of spren? Following of spren?)

Secondly, access to Stormlight:

Physical inhalation from source -> Cognitive draw (inner inhalation, if you will) -> Spiritual movement of Stormlight (assuming Stormlight is a spiritual fuel) -> Cognitive exhalation -> Physical exhalation

(this sequence uses both inhalation and exhalation: inhalation is the drawing in of Stormlight, exhalation is letting it go naturally (Kaladin says breathing releases Stormlight faster) but also through things like pores in your skin)

Lastly, Binding (after Stormlight infused):

Physical touch -> Cognitive will of movement -> Spiritual sDNA check (check of Nahel bond?)

Spiritual movement of Stormlight -> Cognitive bending of the Light (thought of which power to use) -> Physical ramification (people stuck to the ceiling, etc)

What's most important here is that Kaladin is the vessel (as would any other KR Windrunners, presumably).

However, in Shallan and Jasnah's case, at no point do they inhale Stormlight, nor glow all over (this would give them away terribly, though). I believe this is because the vessel used in this instance (at the point of the Binding) is in fact still the gem. This explains the entire theory about gem -> Essence relationship, while Kaladin has no trouble using other gems. The Stormlight needs as vessel in order to be used for Bindings. This is pretty obvious throughout all Bindings. However, it is at no point specified what the vessel needs to be. In this case I take Telcontar's point that this is why gems are necessary for Bindings, because they are (as well as appropriately Bonded Surgebinders) one of the few vessels that can take up Stormlight, and at any rate, Highstorms aren't the safest places for more fragile vessels like humans. We tend to break easily.

And so, in accordance with my 'bend the Light' -> produce a Binding/Effect theory, in the case of say Shallan, it was the gem she used as the vessel that determined the particular Effect produced. Because, as somebody earlier pointed out, in the wrong context, the vessel bends the Light akin to a prism splitting Stormlight. However, a Human vessel has access to as many functions as his sDNA and thus Nahel bond allows, the gem only has access to one of the Essences (and perhaps in other Bindings, one of the Bindings, as we are unsure whether all Surges apart from Transformation require Inhalation of Stormlight [because the Body Focus of KR order 1 is Inhalation]).

So a Transformation would go like this:

Physical touch (lets ignore Jasnah for now) -> Cognitive Truth/Giving (as Shallan gives a truth) -> Spiritual check of sDNA/Nahel (and permission given by Truthspren?) -> Cognitive Shadesmar (as in the entire transportation, talking to object, freeing it, all the necessary jobs) -> Physical rendition (goblet -> blood)

This theory (probably not entirely original, its most likely already been suggested, what with the collaboration of devious minds that feed upon this forum) shalt now been dubbed, in truly flowery fashion, as 'The Realmatic Distortion of Stormlight through appropriate Vessels in Surgebinding and other Rosharian magicks'.

Notes:

aka TRDSVSR

'Rosharian' is now completely owned and copyrighted by me unless anyone can otherwise prove that the term has previously been used.

The only counter argument (to my knowledge, at least) that I can perceive to my theory (please find any others) is that the body (in my Realmatic portrait of the inhalation of Stormlight) seems to accept the inhalation of Stormlight before the Spiritual Realm has even checked to see whether it is possible that you can, and, unless these processes are instantaneous, would lead to a rather awkward moment in your chull-training career.

I hope this post was very clear. If you don't understand, tell me, if you don't agree, tell me, if you have a differing opinion for which you have proof, most certainly tell me, and if you do like it, don't keep it to yourself! I might post this theory as its own thread, but am unsure as to whether it is 'encompassing' enough for a full thread on General Theories, or whether it has been previously suggested, bu I hope it served the original purpose of clearing up my standing in the discussions that have been recently taking place on this thread!

Upvote for explaining why the gem matters for Soulcasting but not Windrunning!

Further implications: With the whole Fabrials-Surgebinders parallel, this would imply that any fabrial that replicates Windrunner powers would have to be based on a sapphire.

This is definitely worthy of becoming a full article on its own.

Edited March 15, 2012 by ReaderAt2046

[Odium's_Shard]

Zas does that mean Brandon almost explicitly confirmed that it had a Physical focus (ie something you can hold)?

Lucky catch!

Might post fully on General Theories with some line-to-line edits (ie taking out reference to above posts, adding in evidence).

[Telcontar]

Eh, I used that quote in my post before

[Kolo]

I think that spren do give specific powers, but not completely. In a sense, its like the groupings of Allomantic metals, but more so. The aspects of the focuses are certainly related, such as tin and pewter both enhancing the body, giving alertness, and stuff, like two spren both giving one same surge, but both producing different wholes. According to Vasher/ Tax, there are four categories of Awakening. Two give sentience, and 2 not. However, all four are distinct.( I'm not sure I got the powers right for BioChroma, but regardless, the groupings should basically still prove my point).

[Windborne Sword]

I think that the previous guess of Oaths being the spiritual focus of power on Roshar is probably correct and here is why. If someone swears to themselves an oath and follows it, it seems to attract attention of a spren like Syl. I also think that further oaths that specify your actions even more like the 2nd to 5th ideals of the KR give better efficiency to one's use of magic. I don't think Kaladin was just able to do more things with his lashings after saying the 2nd Ideal of the Windrunners: "I shall protect those who cannot protect themselves." I think he was able to use it more efficiently as well, because from what little we've seen of Kaladin and Szeth's abilities while similar, it seems that Kaladins are more powerful and longer lasting. 

 

An example from Mistborn that I think backs up the efficiency theory is that Kelsier when teaching Vin Allomancy for the first time tells her to be very precise with the quality and mixture of metals that she ingests. If the metal is only slightly off it will still work, but it won't work as well. It's less efficient than using the correct mixture of metal. 

 

So every time that Kaladin says the correct Oath or Ideal of a Windrunner the more efficient he will become at using his powers and he will be able to do more things with it because it takes less power to use than it did before.

 

A gaming analogy from say World of Warcraft would be that your friend gives you an Epic item that you can't use because you aren't level 60, you are only level 45 and thus you aren't ready to wield it yet. Until Kaladin correctly says the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Ideals of the Windrunners he cannot equip that Epic item. He will be ready as soon as he says those Ideals. 

 

This could explain why Jasnah can use her powers at a distance, but Shallan has to be touching something for it to work. Shallan isn't using her power efficiently enough to be able to use them at range. This also could explain why Szeth has similar powers to Kaladin, but because he isn't honorable he isn't getting the power from Honor and is getting it from somewhere else, like Hemalurgy is similar to Allomancy in that it looks like you are doing the same thing when you really aren't. Hell in the first book of Mistborn they thought that all Steel Inquisitors were Mistborn prior to becoming an Inquisitor and that only got disproved when Marsh became one at the end of the book. 

 

Last and not least, but it would also explain why Dalinar started getting visions from Honor after following the Codes. Because he was the one who was keeping to his oaths more than anyone else was he able to pick up Honor's S.O.S. visions, and yes I think that they are like an S.O.S. It may also have to do with the fact that Honor may have died in the Shattered Plains and that Dalinar being the most honorable person closest to Honor's grave was able to pick them up. I don't think that's true however as I think that wherever the Highstorms come from is the place where Honor died. 

 

I hope that makes sense and if not please tell me where and I'll try to explain more or in a better way.

[Natans]

Sorry for the use of the dark art of necromacy but I would like to revive this thread =)

 

Said this, to me in Roshar the magic sytems basically work in this way: 

 

Surgebinding

 

The sprens, in a rough way, are atracked by certain virtues and when they find someone that REALLY live they lives by this virtues they make a bond (nahel bond) with this person, that ultimately give that person a specific set of surgebind powers(cognitive ideas of forces like gravity and transformation).

 

In a cosmere aproach I would think that when the spren bond with a person they turn in a kind of escape valve/hack of the cognitive realm.

 

The spren make possible to a person have acess to certain forces(surges)(cognitive ideas of forces) in a similar way that a Elantrian have acess to the "cognitive ideas" in their world when they draw Aon to create a certain effect.

 

Think in this way, a spren is like a len("focus") that when a person cast a light("investidude"-stormlight) create a specific spectrum of light (effect-surge-(cognitive ideas of forces). The "intent" is the desire of the user to use his power.

 

In Elantris something similar occur, but the difference is that there the raw investidure(energy) is all trapped inside of the cognitive world creating pressure, what make easy to full the "cognitive ideas" with energy "investidure".

 

An aon works like a valve, that when you open, you release "the cognitive idea of a force" defined by the kind o valve used(Aon), in broad way, this is very similar to a surge the difference is that a spreen give you acess to a only a few fixed "cognitive ideas of forces" and which person can only "bond" with only a spren so there is a limit what a person can do.

 

A Elantrian can use every aon so in this aspect they have acess do much more "cognitive ideas of forces" to create different effects. 

 

Two very similar magic sytems =)

 

The fabrials

 

The spren ("focus") is trapped in a gem, and when you give stormlight ("investidure") to it you create a effect defined by the kind of spren you trapped. The "intent" here is the the metal frame in the Fabrial that create a pattern in the light cast by the gem.

 

WoR Spoilers

The Parshendi forms

 

A spreen bond with a parshendi, I think that the parshendis could have some kind of gemheart(physical or cognitive I don't know, and by bonding with a spreen "focus" in a highstorm "investidure" they can change forms by trapping the sprens (cognitive idea) inside them.

 

PS: Another thing to me is that the highstorm are in reality a BIG HOLE in the physical world thar leaks the investidure present in the cognitive world diretcly in form of energy in Roshar. Together with this hole come the sprens "cognitive being" that are kind of sucked in the physical world.

 

What made this hole, Honor death. Before him die only a small part of investidure that are used by him and cultivation existed(fewer spren existed), after him the physical and cognitive wolrds lost the equilibrium what created more sprens and the highstorms. Investidure without intent of a person do control.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Windrunner
Please mark WoR spoilers with a spoiler tag

[Khyrindor]

Szeth has an Honourblade. In the Eshonai interlude of WoR, they are talking that the Humans might have Surgebinders again. The response: Perhaps not. They might have Honourblades. These of course, are the Blades the Heralds left behind. To be a Surgebinder, you have to bond with a spren. Sanderson said that Szeth DOES NOT have a spren, therefore, he has one of the Heralds blades. The question here is, how the the Parshendi know about this???

[Haelbarde]

This is a verrrrrrrrrryyy long thread to try read through. Its filled to the brim of Wall of Texts. I worked my way through the first page, but that was a hard slog. I don't really want to trawl through the next 8 pages. So I might jump straight in and offer my opinions and see what people think. You can tell me if its been raised already.

 

Hemalurgy: I was going to say i thought the bind point was the focus, but then I had the thought that is acts similarly to feruchemistry - an attribute is stored in the metal. So never mind me.

 

Surgebinding: So, Stormlight is the fuel. Spren facilitate, through the Nahel Bond, the surgebinding. I'm going off the Syl quote of the Laws of Natures being 'An agreement among friends' - Likely between Shards/Adonalsium that has propagated down through the spren, who embody and enforce these in Roshar. However, because spren, are/can be sentient (there are cities in Shadesmar, with two 'families' ruling two different 'factions' - Honorspren, the spren of honor, Cryptics, the spren of Cultivation), they can be reasoned with. Particularly Cryptics - It is through truths that passage to Shadesmar is granted (possibly link with Cultivation=Nightwatcher?). 

The focus is harder to pin down than the others, in the way the powers are described. There's two reasons. I think in every other story we've had someone who either knows, or has figured out exactly how the system works, and has infodumped for a POV character or for the reader, in addition to making the point each time the magic is use, that a Command is made, a metal is burned, an Aon is drawn.

in the SA, the best we got is Jasnah and Syl -> Jasnah is digging up what she can from old history books, and what she's either found from experimentation, or gleaned from Ivory, though if Ivory is anything like the cryptics, I would imagine its not easy to get stuff out of him. The other source we have is Syl, but her memory isn't what it used to be, and while improving, is not useful particularly. So neither has been able to explain much. 

So the only other thing we have is when its used. But thats not much better. Unfortunately we've not had a POV of Jasnah surgbinding (bar the WoR chapter, but was her first time, and was not consciously doing it. Hardly a useful resource), so we don't get any help there. We have Shallan's blood incident (in Jasnah's room), where she gives a truth, but while I believe she focused on blood, she didn't really know what she was doing. Kaladin, in WoR, is able to spray sticky stormlight around, but that been about the best he's been able to conciously do. Sveth knew quite a bit about the Lashings, but what does he tell us? He lashes out, but physically how he does that, we have no idea? 

 

There's two things which stand out to me: Intent, and Spren.

What we have seen is that a Surgebinding Intends (consciously or not) to do something, and the stormlight available to the surgebinder (whether in gems, or in body, it doesn't matter, both are just fuel tanks) is consumed to cause the Intent to happen as best able with the engergy provided. Now here is my theory: Basing this off the Syl 'Agreement among friends quote', and the Cryptics allowing access to Shadesmar to Soulcast, Spren facilitate the surgbinding - there are a set of agreed upon 'guidelines' by which spren cause the world to function in a predictable way. However, there are a second set of rules, set up by the spren to emulate Honor (and Cultivations?) Investure in the Heralds, that allow the Knights Radiant to bend the normal set of rules in a properly defined and predictable way, metered and regulated by stormlight as the fuel source. The Nahel Bond acts as a way of communicating with a spren, who is able to then broker deals with the natural spren who cause the Physical World follow predictable patterns. 

 

So what is the focus? Is it the Intent - the desire for something to happen? Or is it the link to Spren - a way of paying for Natural Laws to be bent, if eligible for that particular Law, determined by the type of link you have?

 

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I think this idea works how fabrials work as well. Intent is important (well, I think Intent is important regardless), but spren are captured, presumably fueled with stormlight, but the specific spren can/is forced to bend a particular law. Possibly organised by the spren as a lesser substitute for the KR after the trust was broken between man and spren after Recreance. 

 

It also may leave room for Szeth's abilities to be explained as well. This requires a broker, a way of paying a predefined cost to bend a law in a specific way, given user eligibility for that change. If Szeth has an honorblade, then he has an artefact directly related to Investure by a Shard, which either facilliates by itself a bending of the natural laws, at a Shard level, or (and more probably, if the laws created by spren for the KR mirrored the rules Honor created for the Heralds, though requiring stormlight rather than direct access to honor, as well as the fact that Szeth still requires stormlight), gives eligibility to making the payment to bend the rules as a Windrunner (determined by the particular blade).

 

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TL;DR - 

Assumptions: Spren control physical laws - Physics is a set of rules agreed upon by Shards/Adonalsium, and enforced by Spren on Roshar

Theory (Surgebinding): Two requirements for surgebinding - Intent (A desire for something in the world to change) and a Broker to allow this to happen.

Regarding Spren: Spren enforce the physical laws decided upon by Adonalsium/Shards. However, there are 10 related specifically to Honor/Cultivation. These are more sentient that natural spren, though related. These spren, seeking to emulate the direct Investure granted to the Heralds by Honor(&Cultivation[?]), and formed an additional set of rules. Through a Nahel Bond, each type of Spren is able to Broker a deal  in which the natural laws pertaining to two of 10 designations are bent, at the cost of stormlight, as a way of regulating the power of said surges, as well as through Ideals (presumably that match up with the Ideas embodied by these 10 spren types).

 

Conclusion: Still unsure, but has to do with the Intent, so long as it matches up with the type of deal the Broker can manage.

 

 

If that make sense, and is plausible, what then is the focus?
 

[Moogle]

Assumptions: Spren control physical laws - Physics is a set of rules agreed upon by Shards/Adonalsium, and enforced by Spren on Roshar

 

Your post deserves a longer response (I think you've got some good ideas here), but I do want to bring up that Shards and spren came from humans (or at least after), and that some worlds have no Shards - your assumption here that the laws need someone to enforce them is off the mark, I think. Adonalsium might have set the laws (we don't know when Adonalsium came relative to humans, just that humans picked him up post-Splintering), but I don't know how the Cosmere's creation story is going to go.

 

If Brandon just says "... and Adonalsium created the world from nothing!" I will be sad because it ignores where Adonalsium comes from. But I digress.

 

Honorblades also do not appear to contain spren, so there's an issue there when you say that they are required to act as a broker for Stormlight.

 

I think a theory of Stormlight usage will require a more meta-theory on how all magic in the Cosmere works. I've brought up a somewhat-flawed theory (sorry to post something I myself wrote, it makes me look self-centered) about Investiture mimicking other Investiture/forms it finds. Under this framework, spren just happen to be living forms for Investiture to copy when a Surgebinder allows the Stormlight to leave his body. I'm looking for better alternatives on how magic as a whole functions in the Cosmere, though. There's a huge lack of these theories. Kurk doesn't post enough.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Moogle

[Haelbarde]

 Regarding Spren; I thought we had WoB that Adonalsium left spren on Roshar before the Shards turned up. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Regarding Honorblades: My point was they are something Of Honor, so if they grant powers, its more directly from Honor himself, rather than via spren, and so, Honor is able to override the rules set by the spren. I was thinking it would be more like Vin directly burning the mists, bypassing the need for metals, directly burning stuff from preservation.

 

The origin of Adonalsium is something I look forward to finding out about. There was obviously something before, as there were sentients, and Adonalsium, and worlds. So, I'm not sure.