Focuses on Roshar

[Ari he/him]

Makes sense to me. The attributes seem to be what determines which power you get, and unless I've misunderstood something that's what the focus is supposed to do.

I'm liking this theory so far, it definitely seems that strongly displaying the attributes and showing commitment to them attracts and strengthens a bond with a specific type of Spren.

[Captain.Kaulu]

Captain.Kaulu: how would the "Oaths and Bonds" be the focus? I'm not sure how that would work.

Just as reciting a Command in Nalthis activates an Awakening, and directs what that awakening will do, magic in Roshar might be activated -- and its purpose or strength determined -- by the user committing verbally to a particular bond.

Kaladin recites a new Oath to do some new tricks with his Windrunning. Shallan has to tell the truthspren a powerful truth -- a type of bond -- to enter Shadesmar. Szeth has taken an Oath to obey the holder of his Oathstone. Dalinar started having magical things happen to him after he committed to following the Code.

Admittedly, it's clear that Kaladin and Szeth don't need to take new Oaths every time they use (some of the powers of) Windrunning, and we don't know enough about the others to know if they have to use their Bonds every time they perform magic. Although the Truthsprens' statement to Shallan sure sounded like she has to focus every act of Soulcasting with a new true statement (preferably powerful) to them.

And when does Szeth use eyes (although that one isn't a Radiant, so if he strays from the list then it's more in line with my theory than if Shallan does) and when does Jasnah use inhalation/exhalation? When she uses her hands, I had assumed that it was because she needed to touch the objects to soulcast them, and touch not a body focus.

There were examples of these quoted earlier in the thread -- Szeth blinking when he is performing Lashings, and Jasnah taking a deep breath during her massacre of the alley thugs.

[Wispsy he/him]

Shallan doesn't necessarily need a different truth every time, there is no evidence to suggest she can't just use the same truths (as long as they are still true) and that will presumably give the same power each time (excluding any personal changes). The spren only says that a truer truth will allow for a more powerful acts of magic!

[Odium's_Shard]

In reference to Shallan's Soulcasting abilities, it has be aforementioned that she may have the Ars Arcanum attributes of 'Creative/Honest' (although her honesty may be put to bear, I believe her 'non-conflict' approach could represent this).

This I have noticed could also tie in with what she Soulcast that day when she first spoke to the symbolspren (I cannot remember what truth she gave) and was given access to Shadesmar. According to the Ars Arcanum, Blood is the related essence/body focus to her given personality, and is exactly what she Cast the goblect into. There is also the possibility that the goblet had a spren, that she convinced, and thus changed Essence. I cannot remember what gemstone she held in this particular escapade to Shadesmar, but if someone could confirm whether or not it was a Garnet, this would help greatly (as garnet is the related gemstones of Blood and Creative/Honest). I also cannot ignore that the related Herald is named Shalash; perhaps a subtle hint for Shallan, as the Herald is also apparently feminine.

Also, for Jasnah, I believe it has been referenced that her Soulcasting favoured abilities were Vapor, Spark and Lucentia. Now, looking down the table, this would make it seem that the associated Body Focuses would be Exhalation, Soul and Eyes. Now, when she changes the fleeing man into crystal during Shallan's 'philosophy lesson', she closes her Eyes. A link? I also cannot ignore the prospect that as these three Essences are next to each other on the table, as the order is plausibly important, then Shallan also may have these three possibilities (while it is shown Jasnah can perform other Soulcastings, ie purifying Shallan's blood).

Here is an exploration of Shallan's possible favoured attributes.

Pulp/Blood/Tallow

Hair/Blood/Oil

Learned/Creative/Wise

Lucentia/Pulp/Blood

Eyes/Hair/Blood

Loving/Learned/Creative

Blood/Tallow/Foil

Blood/Oil/Nails

Creative/Wise/Resolute

I have no idea which one it would be, if this theory is correct.

Nor can I realistically gauge where her Memories come from.

In respect to Kaladin, I believe he represents Protecting/Leading on the chart, which is linked to Zephyr and Inhalation. Perhaps it is this personality that attracts Syl for the Nahel Bond, giving the power to Inhale Stormlight? This would make it seem that you could thus Exhale it, perhaps when you are Just/Confident, falling under Vapor? This however doesn't make sense in the variety of Surges, as surely all of the other Body Focuses just link it to a body part?

But maybe a body part linked to that KR Order's Surge? In that case, I would give the Wallrunners Zephyr, and split Talus between the Stonewards and perhaps the Dustbringers (if they are part of the KR, as has been speculated?)

Discuss!

[Wisdom he/him]

Just as reciting a Command in Nalthis activates an Awakening, and directs what that awakening will do, magic in Roshar might be activated -- and its purpose or strength determined -- by the user committing verbally to a particular bond.

Kaladin recites a new Oath to do some new tricks with his Windrunning. Shallan has to tell the truthspren a powerful truth -- a type of bond -- to enter Shadesmar. Szeth has taken an Oath to obey the holder of his Oathstone. Dalinar started having magical things happen to him after he committed to following the Code.

Admittedly, it's clear that Kaladin and Szeth don't need to take new Oaths every time they use (some of the powers of) Windrunning, and we don't know enough about the others to know if they have to use their Bonds every time they perform magic. Although the Truthsprens' statement to Shallan sure sounded like she has to focus every act of Soulcasting with a new true statement (preferably powerful) to them.

There were examples of these quoted earlier in the thread -- Szeth blinking when he is performing Lashings, and Jasnah taking a deep breath during her massacre of the alley thugs.

From what I've read of this (very long) thread Oaths can't be the focus as if they were Kaladin would have to make an oath every time he used his Windrunning abilities. Not the enhanced speed and strength as this just seems to be an effect of having stormlight inside him. The other Windrunning abilities however, the Basic, Full and Reverse lashings would require this. Yet it is quite evident in the book that he doesn't need to.

This is my understanding of the term "focus" anyway - it's quite possible I'm wrong .

EDIT: Also, if focii determine what power is used then how exactly would Oaths perform this function? Why would a specific oath activate a certain power?

Edited January 3, 2012 by Wisdom

[Odium's_Shard]

From what I've read of this (very long) thread Oaths can't be the focus as if they were Kaladin would have to make an oath every time he used his Windrunning abilities. Not the enhanced speed and strength as this just seems to be an effect of having stormlight inside him. The other Windrunning abilities however, the Basic, Full and Reverse lashings would require this. Yet it is quite evident in the book that he doesn't need to.

This is my understanding of the term "focus" anyway - it's quite possible I'm wrong .

EDIT: Also, if focii determine what power is used then how exactly would Oaths perform this function? Why would a specific oath activate a certain power?

I think that you are right and that Oaths aren't the focus. And sorry about the entire length conundrum!

I think its already been suggested multiply, and I agree, it is the Nahel bond with spren that necessitates this access to Surgebinding. And I am going to explain why I think they are also the explicit cause:

So, firstly, I will list Kaladin's Nahel bond. Syl is honorspren, thus attracted to Kaladin's honourable deeds and so he was able to perform a Nahel bond with Syl through the use of the first Ideal (maybe other means, it isn't relevant). Syl is now bounded with Kaladin.

Theory 1:

Kaladin uses a Full lashing to stick a pebble to the side of the barrack wall.

Syl explains that the mysteriously things creating the bond holding them together are bindspren. It isn't made clear, however, if the bindspren cause the bond, or are simply attracted to it.

So, potential candidate for facilitating Surges: specialised Spren. It makes sense to me.

Theory 2:

Kaladin is using Stormlight to facilitate an unknown Reverse Lashing during one of his bridge runs, Lashing the arrows to the bridge.

During this, he notes that Syl is gone.

And so, I have come to the (exceptional leap of reason that I am going to call a) conclusion that Syl has actual gone to a different world, in my opinion the Spiritual Realm to act as a conduit for the Spiritual stores of Honor's power there. In this scenario, Kaladin is the Physical conduit, and Syl facilitates the link of Spiritual reserves into reserves that Kaladin can then export (or Lash with/Surge whatever..).

So, potential candidate number two: Nahel spren act as Spiritual conduit (like a metal for a Mistborn?)

Discuss.

[Kelek he/him]

Ok, so I am going to redirect the focus of the focus thread here. Everyone here keeps focusing on the stormlight and spren, but a new idea came to me as I read the first desscription of soulcasting.

Quoting from the ebook - "Jasnah closed her eyes, pressing her hand against the fallen boulder. She raised her head, inhaling slowly. The stones on the back of her hand began to glow more fiercely, the smokestone in particular growing so bright it was difficult to look at."

This paragraph is from when Jasnah was saving Taravangian's granddaughter, just for context.

So, step by step from what we know of soulcasting, we will say that when Jasnah breathes in and closes her eyes, she is entering Shadesmar. The gemstones glowing is where she is accessing the power and telling the stone or stonespren to change into smoke.

My theory is this. Gemstones are the focus.

The gem is where the stormlight is held. Much like metal in Mistborn, the gem is the access to the power. The metal unlocks the sDNA action related to the metal's spiritual attribute. The gem unlocks the stormlight for use in soulcasting.

Kaladin and Szeth both pull stormlight from gems in order to use "Lashings". Fabrials are similar to this as well, using stormlight. Off tangent, but could stormlight be spren without a cognative presence?

Stormlight has not been used without being first put into a gem. So, the magical power is in the physical realm as stormlight. It must be put into a container in order to be used. The type of spren bound to a person determines what the stormlight will unlock, but essentially, the gem is where the power is coming from. This is different from Scadrial as the sDNA determines the power and the metal unlocks it. On Roshar, the spren determines the powers and the infused gemstone unlocks the power.

Well, another crazy theory from Kelek. Enjoy.

Edited for spelling

Edited January 4, 2012 by Kelek

[Odium's_Shard]

Ok, so I am going to redirect the focus of the focus thread here. Everyone here keeps focusing on the stormlight and spren, but a new idea came to me as I read the first desscription of soulcasting.

Quoting from the ebook - "Jasnah closed her eyes, pressing her hand against the fallen boulder. She raised her head, inhaling slowly. The stones on the back of her hand began to glow more fiercely, the smokestone in particular growing so bright it was difficult to look at."

This paragraph is from when Jasnah was saving Taravangian's granddaughter, just for context.

So, step by step from what we know of soulcasting, we will say that when Jasnah breathes in and closes her eyes, she is entering Shadesmar. The gemstones glowing is where she is accessing the power and telling the stone or stonespren to change into smoke.

My theory is this. Gemstones are the focus.

The gem is where the stormlight is held. Much like metal in Mistborn, the gem is the access to the power. The metal unlocks the sDNA action related to the metal's spiritual attribute. The gem unlocks the stormlight for use in soulcasting.

Kaladin and Szeth both pull stormlight from gems in order to use "Lashings". Fabrials are similar to this as well, using stormlight. Off tangent, but could stormlight be spren without a cognative presence?

Stormlight has not been used without being first put into a gem. So, the magical power is in the physical realm as stormlight. It must be put into a container in order to be used. The type of spren bound to a person determines what the stormlight will unlock, but essentially, the gem is where the power is coming from. This is different from Scadrial as the sDNA determines the power and the metal unlocks it. On Roshar, the spren determines the powers and the infused gemstone unlocks the power.

1) The first highlight bit, looking at the Ars Arcanum from tWoK, I have pulled up the following analysis from this observation:

Smokestone is the associated gem for Vapor (fog,opaque gas,smoke) and so my theory agrees with yours that the gemstone here was the focus, but it was a specialized focus, i.e like a metal, it only had one access point to the sDNA. And so the rock was turned into smoke, using the Stormlight in the gemstone in a certain, determined way (much like a fabrial). Basically I am suggesting that the type (and maybe cut?) of gemstone/storage/carrier determined the result.

2) Observation 2: Using second and third highlight, I am going to suggest that Storms are the Physical aspect of Honor, much like the Mists were for Preservation, and so Stormlight, like the liquid in the Well of Ascension, is a pure form of Honor. And so, like metals, gems become the carrier of this and direct it in certain ways that can only be accessed depending on how close or varying your link with the associated Shard is, or the type of carrier (ie, pewter, emerald, etc.).

Example: Kaladin says the Second Ideal, making an oath with his honorspren, which brings him closer to Honor.

Example 2: Shallan says a truth to the truthspren, increasing the bond to it and thus Honor, giving her access to Shadesmar.

Example 3: Each metal can only be accessed by someone with a particular bit of Preservation within them, ie Mistborn have large piece can access all, and this is why lerasium, when consumed, makes a Mistborn (you have just gained a large piece of Preservation in your sDNA).

Make sense?

[Zarepath he/him]

My theory is this. Gemstones are the focus.

The gem is where the stormlight is held. Much like metal in Mistborn, the gem is the access to the power. The metal unlocks the sDNA action related to the metal's spiritual attribute. The gem unlocks the stormlight for use in soulcasting.

Even though the magic feeds on stormlight and gems, Awakening feeds on colors, and yet its focus is Commands.

[Meandering Monotreme]

Ok, so I am going to redirect the focus of the focus thread here. Everyone here keeps focusing on the stormlight and spren, but a new idea came to me as I read the first desscription of soulcasting.

Quoting from the ebook - "Jasnah closed her eyes, pressing her hand against the fallen boulder. She raised her head, inhaling slowly. The stones on the back of her hand began to glow more fiercely, the smokestone in particular growing so bright it was difficult to look at."

This paragraph is from when Jasnah was saving Taravangian's granddaughter, just for context.

So, step by step from what we know of soulcasting, we will say that when Jasnah breathes in and closes her eyes, she is entering Shadesmar. The gemstones glowing is where she is accessing the power and telling the stone or stonespren to change into smoke.

My theory is this. Gemstones are the focus.

The gem is where the stormlight is held. Much like metal in Mistborn, the gem is the access to the power. The metal unlocks the sDNA action related to the metal's spiritual attribute. The gem unlocks the stormlight for use in soulcasting.

Kaladin and Szeth both pull stormlight from gems in order to use "Lashings". Fabrials are similar to this as well, using stormlight. Off tangent, but could stormlight be spren without a cognative presence?

Stormlight has not been used without being first put into a gem. So, the magical power is in the physical realm as stormlight. It must be put into a container in order to be used. The type of spren bound to a person determines what the stormlight will unlock, but essentially, the gem is where the power is coming from. This is different from Scadrial as the sDNA determines the power and the metal unlocks it. On Roshar, the spren determines the powers and the infused gemstone unlocks the power.

Well, another crazy theory from Kelek. Enjoy.

Edited for spelling

The gems are not a focus, in my opinion. I say that because they are an external force. For everything else, the focus is directed from your sDNA and therefore from within (I think; I'm not completely clear on what sDNA is). My key problem with gems being the focus is that they never affect your sDNA at all. A concrete example of a problem with it is this: To soulcast, stormlight from a specific gem is required. To use lashings, stormlight from any gem is required.

Gems do play a part, however, and this is my theory on what they do. Stormlight is normally a wild, uncontrollable thing. However, gems capture that stormlight and put it in a usable form. We can only use the stormlight from gems (like how we can only use the nitrogen from plants; don't think to much on that analogy, because it will break down under much thought). When a gem captures the stormlight, it is changed slightly to fit the gem, so it is easier to soulcast, say, things into smoke with smokestone because the stormlight in a smokestone has been slightly changed in a way that is used when turning things into smoke. However, the stormlight is not changed much; stormlight from other gems works, it just uses more gems (hence all gems glowing, but smokestone glowed the most). Also, different powers might not be as fine-tuned as soulcasting is, so lashings need stormlight in general (and is not specific enough to require one specific gem).

Does that make sense?

Edited January 5, 2012 by Tangletalon

[Zas678 he/him]

Yes it does. And here's what I've understood about sDNA. Spiritual DNA is kept in the Spiritual Realm, stores certain information about you. It says what planet you're from, what your level of connection to various Shards are, and can be passed down from generation to generation. What Lerasium does is it modifies your sDNA so that it gives you a +10 connection to Preservation, thus creating the side effect of you becoming an allomancer. Lerasium slowly is diluted as that effect is spread from generation to generation, just like one person with pink hair will only have so many descendants with pink hair.

Scadrial is the only world that we know of where magic systems (Allomancy & Feruchemy) are passed through sDNA.

As on the idea of Focus on Roshar, I think that Odium's Shard's Post up above is the right answer. The focus in all the other systems have been something that has determined what form the "magic" displays. Aons, Commands, and Metals all have a function. I do believe, however that there is some give in each focus. For example, Iron doesn't make you pull on all the metals around you. It instead lets you choose which metal to pull on, with how much strength. Brass gives you even more variety. You can choose someone, and soothe specific emotions.

The same of Spren. Syl is Kaladin's focus. She allows him to access the Stormlight, through the gems, and use it to manipulate bonds. He can manipulate the spiritual gravitational bond like Szeth does to go flying, and make things go flying, or he can manipulate the electromagnetic forces to make things "stick".

Now on to Gems. I believe that Gems on Roshar are like plants in our world. They take a raw form of energy from the Highstorm, (like the Sun), and converts it into useable energy, Stormlight (like glucose). The trouble is, only certain organisms can process Stormlight (glucose)- Spren (Mitochondria). The Spren can then fuel that power to those that they share a Nahel Bond with. (Just like a mitochondria gives energy to the cell that's hosting it.)

Or, if they are instead bonded to the crystal, they perform a certain defined function, using the Stormlight as their fuel. I know that for Soulcasting, specific gems mean specific transformations, but if you change the spren inside of a gem, you presumably change the Fabrial as well. That explains the variety of things that Fabrials have been found to do.

(Note that I speak of mitochondria with the theory that they were once independent bacteria that were eventually incorporated into successful cells. This may be wrong, but it's just the idea that matters for this theory).

[spacemonkey he/him]

First time poster here.

It seems likely to me that Soulcasting uses gems as the focus. When Jasnah purified Shallan's blood of poison in Chapter 48, she needed a garnet to transform blood.

Page 851, paperback

"She's been poisoned. I need a garnet. Bring me a garnet!"

And when she turned the rock into smoke earlier in the book, she used a smokestone, which matches with the Soulcasting chart. So from this we can conclude that the focus for Soulcasting is gems. There is no indication in Kaladin or Szeth's chapters that gems are required for Windrunning, though, except as a source of Stormlight. Possibly, each Surge has its own focus, which would fit with each one being its own separate magic system.

[Aradel he/him]

First time poster here.

It seems likely to me that Soulcasting uses gems as the focus. When Jasnah purified Shallan's blood of poison in Chapter 48, she needed a garnet to transform blood.

And when she turned the rock into smoke earlier in the book, she used a smokestone, which matches with the Soulcasting chart. So from this we can conclude that the focus for Soulcasting is gems. There is no indication in Kaladin or Szeth's chapters that gems are required for Windrunning, though, except as a source of Stormlight. Possibly, each Surge has its own focus, which would fit with each one being its own separate magic system.

As I recall, Szeth and Kaladin both drew on the stormlight from sapphires. They are the smallest denomination of sphere's and most (if not all) of Kaladin's spheres were sapphire. Because they're common and cheap, sapphires are also used for illumination. Szeth often draws on stormlight-infused lamps to fuel his windrunning. I'm willing to bet that anytime it mentions what kind of sphere they draw from, it's a sapphire.

(Of course I don't have a book on hand, so I'll double check this later.)

[Sunblesser]

I think you need to replace sapphire with either diamond or clear mark. Are sapphires even used in spheres?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

yes, sapphires are used in spheres, however you are correct that diamonds are the least valuable kind of sphere.

[spacemonkey he/him]

Actually, having looked through Szeth's chapters again, I noticed something interesting.

From the prologue:

Szeth blinked, Lashing himself to that distant point down the hallway.

And later, in ninth interlude:

With a look and a blink, he Lashed that man to the ceiling as well.

Blinking is mentioned twice in connection with a Basic Lashing. That's probably not coincidence. So maybe the focus for the gravity surge is related to the eyes.

[Pechvarry]

Actually, having looked through Szeth's chapters again, I noticed something interesting.

From the prologue:

And later, in ninth interlude:

Blinking is mentioned twice in connection with a Basic Lashing. That's probably not coincidence. So maybe the focus for the gravity surge is related to the eyes.

Shallan also does a lot of blinking. Ties in nicely with the theories flying around about her memory.

[Guest Jacob Santos]

What does Kalidan do when he does his lashings? If I remember correctly he closes his eyes. I don't think blinking is the key, only the lack of sight.

If I could windbag for a moment. I would say that the lack of sight has some symbolism. How often do our eyes (in fiction) deceive from the truth. If we see something that counters what we know to be true, it could be filtered out. In some magic systems, the act of magic needs to be believed in order to be realized.

What is key is the disbelief (however brief) that what they are doing is real. Perhaps in the moment, the act of closing one's eyes accesses the cognitive realm expanding the mind (so to speak) in order to do the magic.

[Telcontar]

I didn't read this whole thread, but focused mostly on the first posts of Chaos and Mad Scientist. So if this has been discussed, I'm sorry for wasting your time.

When I had first read the initial post I had stopped there. And when today I read Mad Scientist's ideas I thought "yeah, that's what I had come up with on my own, only explained in a much better way".

That's why I'm using his criteria for my proposition of the focus on Roshar. Thanks to you, Mad Scientist.

Also this is my first post over here on General Theories, please don't laugh at me too hard.

My theory is quite funny, because if I'm right, then it has just been way too obvious. It's like not seeing the wood for the trees. (Not sure if this expression is the right one, in my own language it works pretty well)

Focus on Roshar is the Surgebindings.

Just to make myself clear. Surgebinding is how the magic system is called. But a Surgebinding also is, what the KR performed.

Ars Arcanum: on the creation about fabrials

... the more mystical Surgebindings once performed by the Knights Radiant

1. a focus is actively used in the magic system

careful not to confuse the use of the focus with the use of the fuel, which gets used up. However you can't use UP a focus.

Everytime Szeth or Kaladin uses magic, he performs a Surgebinding, their effects know as the Lashings (again, Ars Arcanum)

Everytime Jasnah is Soulcasting, she uses the Surge of Transformation, thus performing a Surgebinding.

2. A focus is omnipresent in the magic system

well, as Mad Scientist already pointed, this follows from nr.1. The focus is always used for magic. You always need to perform a Surgebinding to create a magic effect.

3. A focus has variations in it

There are a lot of different Surgebindings. Lashings, Soulcasting, probably Regrowth, Travel

4. A focus variation is exclusive in its use in the magic system

Each Surgebinding would need to produce an exclusive effect. Well, from what we've seen: it does.

5. A focus variant for a magic system is specific

If I understand this criteria right, then it means that each focus variation is tied to one effect. I do not really see the difference with point nr.5 though. Maybe someone can help out here?

Edit: saw this after posting. Question nr.52:

Josh

Is the focus for Surgebinding the Body Focuses?

Mi'chelle

Is the body the focus for Surgebinding, I think is what he meant.

[Eric's note: Well, I meant what I said, but whatever. ]

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, okay. The Physical?

Mi'chelle

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

Surgebinding is... Yeah, kinda. That's a "yeah, kinda."

Mi'chelle

We'll figure it out in more detail later.

I think this fits with: focus of Surgebinding is Surgebinding.

To summarize I'll go back to my original thoughts before reading Mad Scientist: to me a focus was the means of HOW exactly you use the power of Adonalsium (because to me every Shardic power basically is the same, Adonalsium. You "channel" Adonalsium). On Roshar the power was stormlight (the fuel). So how do you determine its use? You perform a Surgebinding. Every other thing: touching, willing Stormlight into an object or person, blinking, going to Shadesmar is just what you need to do to perform the Surgebinding. Like you wouldn't say that drinking metal flakes is a focus, touching stuff is not a focus.

You may now tear this into pieces.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Telcontar

[Odium's_Shard]

I told you I'd see you over here! Welcome, Telcontar, to the most insane portion of the forums! Now please allow me to systematically deconstruct your post, in a constructive manner (if one can possibly deconstruct constructively).

1. a focus is actively used in the magic system

careful not to confuse the use of the focus with the use of the fuel, which gets used up. However you can't use UP a focus.

Everytime Szeth or Kaladin uses magic, he performs a Surgebinding, their effects know as the Lashings (again, Ars Arcanum)

Everytime Jasnah is Soulcasting, she uses the Surge of Transformation, thus performing a Surgebinding.

Ok. This I do not agree with. I think it needs some outer-Cosmere context just to summarize my issue with it. Brandon explicitly confirmed, and we are in universal agreement that, the focus of the Metallic Arts of Scadrial is... metal (surprise). And so your statement that 'you can't use UP a focus' isn't applicable. Unless I'm wrong, the metal reserves of an Allomancer are pretty well used up during burning, however, the focus may not be the Physical rendition of the metal, but its Spiritual tie, which may not be used up. That is the only argument I can see that can state that a focus cannot be used up, after we explicitly saw the opposite in the Mistborn saga.

2. A focus is omnipresent in the magic system

well, as Mad Scientist already pointed, this follows from nr.1. The focus is always used for magic. You always need to perform a Surgebinding to create a magic effect.

How can a Surgebinding already be present if it is in fact necessary for it to make itself? If you need an existing, omnipresent Surgebinding in order to commit more Surgebindings, the first person ever to try Surgebinding was pretty screwed, and as we can see, he obviously succeeded. However, I understand what you mean, but thats the same as saying 'burning' is always present in Allomancy, or 'death' is always necessary in Hemalurgy. The act of Hemalurgy cannot be the focus for Hemalurgy. It doesn't make sense. But please try to prove me wrong!

3. A focus has variations in it

There are a lot of different Surgebindings. Lashings, Soulcasting, probably Regrowth, Travel

There are lots of different cuts and types of gem, and many different alloys of the 'pure' metals. However, the act burning Tin isn't a 'variation' of practicing the Metallic Arts, because on its own, the variation makes no sense. If a sole person used Transformation as we see Jasnah and Shallan doing, it is because of another factor than the fact that they are trying to achieve Transformation. Just willing yourself (with the correct sDNA, however), to be burning Tin doesn't make it the focus of the act. Sorry if this was incoherent, it wasn't a very good point. In summary: the focus cannot be the act itself, after all, metal isn't a 'variation' of Allomancy, or Feruchemy, but the 'variation' of the focus.

4. A focus variation is exclusive in its use in the magic system

Each Surgebinding would need to produce an exclusive effect. Well, from what we've seen: it does.

5. A focus variant for a magic system is specific

If I understand this criteria right, then it means that each focus variation is tied to one effect. I do not really see the difference with point nr.5 though. Maybe someone can help out here?

That's true, but each burning doesn't produce a separate effect, as all Allomancers have to burn, and all Feruchemists store, this never changes. It is the metal (the focus) that varies to allow exclusive effects. So Surgebinding as an act just... can't be the focus of itself...? That may also have been poor, but I hope it gets the point across with the cross-links to Mistborn.

About Nr.5 of the checklist, what it means is that there can be no confusion in what is meant by 'specific variation'. So, theorizing that the focus of Surgebinding is gems (maybe is, maybe isn't), then a heliodor is 'exclusive', in that one cannot mistake it for a ruby. Equally, in the Metallic Arts, there is not blurring between the meanings of 'pewter' and 'tin', thus they require exact percentages of the alloyed metals in order to be Allomantically (and presumably Feruchemically and Hemalurgically) viable. It is 'precise' and 'specific' in its definition, which, I will admit, Surgebinding is, but for the same reasons as above, can't be its own focus... It doesn't make sense compared to what we already know about focuses.

Hope it helped, and look forward to your response!

Odium's_Shard

[Telcontar]

I told you I'd see you over here! Welcome, Telcontar, to the most insane portion of the forums! Now please allow me to systematically deconstruct your post, in a constructive manner (if one can possibly deconstruct constructively).

You'll always be allowed to systematically deconstruct constructively. If only for the sake of that expression

In order to clarify what I am saying, I'll use the word 'Surgebinding' as the name for the magic system and 'Binding' for the act of binding a Surge.

I take you point about a focus being used up. Burned metal is gone, indeed. Also an Aon disappears often after having produced its effect (if not scratched into rock or metal).

But you still have to actively use it. You have to determine the effect by the use you make of the fuel. The fuel of Surgebinding is Stormlight, I think you'll agree.

So the question for a focus on Roshar is: how do you determine the effect of Surgebinding? it depends on which Surge you use and how you Bind it. For example: if you want to run up a wall (effect) then you have to use gravity by performing a Basic Lashing (which is a Binding), binding yourself to the wall. The wall becomes down for you, you run it up.

How can a Surgebinding already be present if it is in fact necessary for it to make itself? If you need an existing, omnipresent Surgebinding in order to commit more Surgebindings, the first person ever to try Surgebinding was pretty screwed, and as we can see, he obviously succeeded. However, I understand what you mean, but thats the same as saying 'burning' is always present in Allomancy, or 'death' is always necessary in Hemalurgy. The act of Hemalurgy cannot be the focus for Hemalurgy. It doesn't make sense. But please try to prove me wrong!

The use of the word 'omnipresence' comes from Mad Scientist's post back on the first page of this thread. What he meant is that you always have to use the focus.

Applied to Surgebinding this would only mean that you'll alwys have to perform a Binding to get the desired effect. Of course the Binding only lasts as long as Stormlight is not used up. So Bindings are not omnipresent because they are already present but because you'll always have to perform a Binding to produce an effect of Surgebinding.

There are lots of different cuts and types of gem, and many different alloys of the 'pure' metals. However, the act burning Tin isn't a 'variation' of practicing the Metallic Arts, because on its own, the variation makes no sense. If a sole person used Transformation as we see Jasnah and Shallan doing, it is because of another factor than the fact that they are trying to achieve Transformation. Just willing yourself (with the correct sDNA, however), to be burning Tin doesn't make it the focus of the act. Sorry if this was incoherent, it wasn't a very good point. In summary: the focus cannot be the act itself, after all, metal isn't a 'variation' of Allomancy, or Feruchemy, but the 'variation' of the focus.

Again, for a better understanding of the criteria, you'll have to read the aforementioned post. He is just way better in explaining than I am.

Variation of the focus 'metal' over on Scadrial is the type of metal. Variation of the focus 'Aon' is the different Aons. Variation of the Commands are lots of them.

Variation of Surgebinding is the Bindings. There are only ten Surges, so you can only produce a limited amount of Bindings.

So, when you say that the focus cannot be the act itself, I say, I never said that the Binding is the focus, the act is whatever it takes to perform it. The distinction is pretty small though.

Performance would be: breath in Stormlight, touch object, will Stormlight into object (for Full Lashings). The focus is the Binding in the variation of a Pressure-Binding.

That's true, but each burning doesn't produce a separate effect, as all Allomancers have to burn, and all Feruchemists store, this never changes. It is the metal (the focus) that varies to allow exclusive effects. So Surgebinding as an act just... can't be the focus of itself...? That may also have been poor, but I hope it gets the point across with the cross-links to Mistborn.

I understand why you are struggling with the idea. Hope speaking of Binding and Surgebinding helped a little. It is the variation of the Binding which allows exclusive effects: Gravity-Binding, Pressure-Binding etc. The performance of a Gravity-Binding (Basic Lashing) and a Pressure-Binding (Full Lashing) is basically the same. You touch an object or person, you will Stormlight into it. In the case of a Gravity-Binding stuff will begin to fall to the ceiling, with a Pressure-Binding stuff will stick together. So it's not the Performance (the act) which is the variation but the Surge which you are Binding.

I hope I could invalidate your major argument that the focus cannot be the act itself. But not by proving your statement wrong (it is a valid argument) but by proving that it's not what I were saying.

[Odium's_Shard]

I think I've got the gist of your counter-argument. I was confused by the lack of distinction of 'Surgebinding' (the magic system) and 'Surgebinding' (the act). By separating them it really helped with the flow of your argument and invalidated the argument I gave against 'Surgebinding' not being able to be the focus of itself, because you weren't saying that, you were saying that the 'binding' itself can vary, which makes sense. The problem I then see is, if Binding itself is the focus, then why do gems and Stormlight also have to omnipresently used (as you put it)?

If Binding were the focus, as metals and Aons are the focus in other magic systems, then why are other items necessary in order to produce the Lashing/Transformation/Binding? It would make far more sense for something like gems or Stormlight to be the focus (especially if you take into consideration Windrunner's points in this post) in that it is universably necessary also.

Just to put that into context: burning could be the focus for Allomancy. It's always finished at the end of the act, it has to be done in every act of Allomancy, it utilises the 'fuel' (on Scadrial metal is both the fuel and the focus), and yet it isn't the focus. Because a Binding might not be used in Voidbinding in the same way it can be applied in Surgebinding. Yet metals (and probably Stormlight/gems) are applied in every Metallic Art. This point however might not be valid as we don't know if Surgebinding and Voidbinding can be classified under the same magic systems like the Metallic Arts, or if Voidbringing and Surgebinding are/n't alike(especially if you read this post).

[Telcontar]

I think I've got the gist of your counter-argument. I was confused by the lack of distinction of 'Surgebinding' (the magic system) and 'Surgebinding' (the act). By separating them it really helped with the flow of your argument and invalidated the argument I gave against 'Surgebinding' not being able to be the focus of itself, because you weren't saying that, you were saying that the 'binding' itself can vary, which makes sense. The problem I then see is, if Binding itself is the focus, then why do gems and Stormlight also have to omnipresently used (as you put it)?

About Stormlight. depends on what it is exactly. Might be the power of Honor/Cultivation/Adonalsium. might also be just a fuel, like colour.

If it's the power itself, then you just channel it, like you channel the power of Preservation by burning metal.

It it's just the fuel, well, then it has to be omnipresently used because it's the fuel.

About gems. You don't use gems for your Binding. You only use the Stormlight trapped in it. If there wouldn't be any means of trapping Stormlight, you only would be able to use Surgebinding during a Highstorm in the moment Stormlight swaps through everything on its path.

If Binding were the focus, as metals and Aons are the focus in other magic systems, then why are other items necessary in order to produce the Lashing/Transformation/Binding? It would make far more sense for something like gems or Stormlight to be the focus (especially if you take into consideration Windrunner's points in this post) in that it is universably necessary also.

The problem with gemstones is, that they don't fit the definition of focus as given by Chaos and Mad Scientist. The focus of a magic system is how you focus the power, how you determine the effect.

While there is a connection with the Stormlight trappend in gemstones and the Essence which you can create by using the Light, Kaladin and Szeth obviously can use Stormlight trapped in ANY type of gemstone. And again, it's not gemstones that are used but the Stormlight trapped in it.

If, however, we'll see in the future that it depends on which gemstone you use for every Binding, then I'll start to believe in gemstones being the focus of Surgebinding. For now I only see an association with gemstones and Essences (as I explained in my Ars Arcanum-analysis)

Just to put that into context: burning could be the focus for Allomancy. It's always finished at the end of the act, it has to be done in every act of Allomancy, it utilises the 'fuel' (on Scadrial metal is both the fuel and the focus), and yet it isn't the focus. Because a Binding might not be used in Voidbinding in the same way it can be applied in Surgebinding. Yet metals (and probably Stormlight/gems) are applied in every Metallic Art. This point however might not be valid as we don't know if Surgebinding and Voidbinding can be classified under the same magic systems like the Metallic Arts, or if Voidbringing and Surgebinding are/n't alike(especially if you read this post).

yep, I would have pointed out that the Metallic Arts share the focus becaues of Ruin and Preservation completing each other. Maybe that's nonsense, I don't know.

Voidbinding will be interesting. It also has ten levels, it (probably) also is about binding stuff. Which could indicate a proximity between the types of Investiture/magic systems.

If the Ten Deaths are indeed creatures made of one of the Essences (thunderclasts-stone and Midnight Essence-smoke) and Voidbinding is how you summon them, this could be explained as 'Binding an Essence' to take shape and gain sentience.

[Aradel he/him]

While there is a connection with the Stormlight trappend in gemstones and the Essence which you can create by using the Light, Kaladin and Szeth obviously can use Stormlight trapped in ANY type of gemstone. And again, it's not gemstones that are used but the Stormlight trapped in it.

To amend that, I can't remember an instance where it was explicitly said that either of them drew from anything but sapphire gems. The closest I can think of is where Kaladin drew stormlight from the gems woven in parshendi beards, but I don't think the book said what gems those were either.

By far, most of the spheres they're described using are spheres used for illunination and cheaper money-spheres. Both are predominately sapphire, which is the most common gem on Roshar.

[Telcontar]

You are probably right. I have just done a quick overview of Szeth's chapters and the only time I found the identity of the stones he used was in the Prologue. Sapphires used for illumination. I don't know why, but I had a violet light in mind. My fault.

But there is no proof either that they only draw stormlight from sapphire spheres. And I think it hard to believe that all Parshendi used sapphires to weave in their beards.

But you're right that it isn't as obvious as I had thought it to be.

What difference would it make, though? It's still the Stormlight which is used, not the stone. So for gemstones to be the focus, we would need different types of Stormlight per gemstone.

I'll even come up with an explanation for that. While Stormlight itself is probably white (you'll find the quotes in the first post of my Ars Arcanum 2.0-thread on the Stormlight-Archive sub-forum) it could be bend by the stone. Much like light is bend by a prism, splitting into the whole spectrum of colour.

So the gemstone would define which type of Stormlight is trapped.

Then there is Navani's notebook. We know that the type and cut of gemstone determine which spren can be trapped in the stone. So there is probably something to that idea.

But. I'll stick with my Bindings are the focus-theory. Because you'd need one gemstone (sapphire) for the manipulation of two Surges (gravity and pressure). You can't deny that Szeth used sapphires for Basic, Reverse and Full Lashings.

Would a guy from the second order use sapphires for his one shared Surge (pressure OR gravity) or a smokestone?

- If you have to use sapphires, then, as a result, you would need sapphires for Surge #3 which leads to the conclusion that any KR would only use sapphires for every Binding.

- If you could use a smokestone to manipulate the same Surge (pressure OR gravity), then why could you manipulate f.ex. Pressure with sapphires and smokestones but not with any other stone?

That doesn't make sense.