Focuses on Roshar

[Wispsy he/him]

Also on shallan, it appears some argue she is not on the path to becoming a kr because she is not v honourable, but she has tried to act honourable. There are huge sections related to morality for shallan, yes she is trying to steal a soulcaster but she is trying to save her family, in a similar way that jasnah went out looking to kill people, she was also looking to protect people who were being hurt by them (her lightning thing could easily be a part of her soulcasting just doing it with enough control to do it from a distance, especially as shadesmar doesn't seem to play by quite the same rules as physical realm but I digresss)

[Catalyst21 he/him]

a couple things to add to this conversation.

1.

Shallen was able to do her drawing trick before she met the "truthspren" (I also believe there is more to it then just drawing, she just doesn't understand it yet. She does say something to the effect that she feels like she is collecting a piece of thier soul)

{back on track}

2.

With Kaladin I got the implication that he was affected by the highstorms even as a child.... I will edit in the exact quote later if needed, but it was something to the effect of:

The was sitting on the roof during the period of weepings,

He always hated the weepings, he felt drained.

Which to me implied he was drawing power from the storms even before Syl

3.

The "What you do" for Honor makes a ton of sense. Honor must "give out" his power by way of Honor, or, by keeping the promises you have kept. Although it matters what you say, it matters so much more if you keep to what you have said. For example, if Shallan said the Words of the Knights Radiant that Kaladin said, it wouldn't do anything for her. Why? Because she hasn't acted (to our knowledge) to "Defend those who can't defend themselves"

zas678 that is a fallacy, you are trying to apply the ideal of the wrong order of radiant's

there are 41 ideals.

the first is common to all 10 orders.

the last 4 are unique to each order.

(I will also try and find the quote for this, it is when Kaladin and (the bridge 4 guy that knows about radients) are talking either in the chasm (high probability) or between the barracks when kal sticks the bag to the barrel (lower probability))

The first (common) ideal is (something like):

"Life before death, journey before destination."

Windrunners 2nd ideal is (something like):

"I will protect those that can't protect themselves"

as we learn more about the ideals we will learn what attracts the Nahel Bonging spren, and what they are (honorspren, truthspren...)

[CrazyRioter she/her]

1) is something that has been annoying me for a while, there's obviously something magical going on with her Memories, and it seems like she's been able to do that for a long time. I think that's something that we will just have to wait until we know more about the magic system and stuff to figure out.

2) is something that has been argued about before.

3) it was in the barracks when Kaladin was trying to figure out how to use Stormlight on purpose, unfortunately I don't have my book so I cannot provide a page reference.

[lordofsoup]

Bad people can still be Honorable. Honor does not always have to be a synonym for good, though it usually is. Kind of like in Infinity Blade where the God King gave them the honor of fighting him.

[LightReader she/her]

Honor among thieves concept. A thief can be a bad guy but still act with honor by choosing to only steal from rich people or choosing to never hurt people in the process, or choosing not to nark on other thieves, that sort of thing. Also, Szeth is bound by his honor to do a lot of really bad things. I would say that this is how Szeth became a windrunner, by always keeping his promises/oaths even when that means obeying very bad people, although his lack of a spren is still unexplained.

I think I'm on board with the body being the focus for Surgebinding. Although I'm not sure how someone would use their hair to focus their power. Didn't someone ask Brandon about this? I thought I remembered seeing the question in an interview somewhere, but I don't remember. I also don't remember what Brandon's answer was, I think it might have been a RAFO.

Also are we certain there are 41 ideals? The first is always the same, but are the four others always different? Could there be some overlap? Perhaps the Radiants that share a surge also share some ideals, but not all of them. I think someone earlier talked about this and said there are 20 ideals after the first one, two for each surge.

[Catalyst21 he/him]

Honor among thieves concept. A thief can be a bad guy but still act with honor by choosing to only steal from rich people or choosing to never hurt people in the process, or choosing not to nark on other thieves, that sort of thing. Also, Szeth is bound by his honor to do a lot of really bad things. I would say that this is how Szeth became a windrunner, by always keeping his promises/oaths even when that means obeying very bad people, although his lack of a spren is still unexplained.

Szeth is not a windrunner.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/446239-q-a-with-brandon-sanderson-way-of-kings

01-Dec-2010

Message 21:

Do Szeth and Kaladin both belong to the same order of knights radiant?

Message 52:

Szeth isn't actually in an order of Knights Radiant. Something different is happening with Szeth that people have already begun to guess. And Kaladin isn't yet a Knight Radiant, but the powers he uses are those of the Windrunners, one of the orders of the Knights Radiant. Szeth is using the same power set. So your phrasing is accurate to that extent.

[LightReader she/her]

Sorry, my wording should have been better. I should say that keeping his oaths is possibly how Szeth gained windrunner-type abilities, rather than became a windrunner.

[Sunblesser]

i think it's easiest to say 'how szeth became a surgebinder', since surgebinder is a catch-all for those who can control the surges, and the orders of the knights radiants are all made up of particular types of surgebinders

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

Idea!

Stormlight is the focus, but there are multiple different types of stormlight (Maybe they're different wavelengths). Perhaps different gems have different abilities to store different types of stormlight, which is why some work better than others for different purposes.

So, for example, when Kaladin pulls all the arrows towards him, maybe he's only using "red" stormlight, and when he sticks things together, he's using "blue" stormlight. He can't tell the difference, though, because he doesn't have a prism.

[Catalyst21 he/him]

Idea!

Stormlight is the focus, but there are multiple different types of stormlight (Maybe they're different wavelengths). Perhaps different gems have different abilities to store different types of stormlight, which is why some work better than others for different purposes.

So, for example, when Kaladin pulls all the arrows towards him, maybe he's only using "red" stormlight, and when he sticks things together, he's using "blue" stormlight. He can't tell the difference, though, because he doesn't have a prism.

This theory is a little to close to Brent Weeks "The Black Prism" for me to be comfortable with

[Chaos he/him]

Idea!

Stormlight is the focus, but there are multiple different types of stormlight (Maybe they're different wavelengths). Perhaps different gems have different abilities to store different types of stormlight, which is why some work better than others for different purposes.

So, for example, when Kaladin pulls all the arrows towards him, maybe he's only using "red" stormlight, and when he sticks things together, he's using "blue" stormlight. He can't tell the difference, though, because he doesn't have a prism.

I personally think Stormlight does not fit the specificity requirement, and the wavelength thing is pushing reason.

[dj26792 he/him]

It has been mentioned in this topic before, but I honestly think the body focuses we've been given are the focuses, either that or there isnt one, Szeth doesn't do anything in particular, he just throws lashings around, they could be focused by particular parts of his body, ie the body focuses in the Ars Arcanum, or there could just not be a distinct focus, the user them self could be the focus, which would be effectively the same as the thought based focus idea everyone else seems to dislike so much

EDIT: my wording was terrible and contradicted itself, so I changed it, distinct focus rather than focus

Edited November 3, 2011 by dj26792

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

Actually, I think you guys are right. Stormlight isn't the focus. I don't think it's the fuel either though, because I don't think we've ever seen it consumed. It leaks away, but isn't consumed.

It acts more like Breath than anything else. (and Breath was neither fuel nor focus).

[Guest Jacob Santos]

Why couldn't bonds be the focus?

Stormlight is used as fuel in many places in the book, so I can't see why something else would be fuel. From powering fabrials, to the armor, the soulcasting, etc.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

Why couldn't bonds be the focus?

Stormlight is used as fuel in many places in the book, so I can't see why something else would be fuel. From powering fabrials, to the armor, the soulcasting, etc.

But is stormlight being consumed, or is it merely leaking away?

[Guest Jacob Santos]

But is stormlight being consumed, or is it merely leaking away?

From my interpretation, it is both. It is either the focus or the fuel or both. From what I've read of the discussion. I can pretty much say that Bonds are either the fuel or focus or if stormlight is not consumed and merely leaks away, then it would be the focus. I'm interested on what the next books say.

Chaos and others pretty much expounded the theory very well. I was all thinking it was Stormlight, but from what someone else said, I started to believe it is bonds as the focus. I think everyone started to lose sight of the forest for the trees. I'm going to say both are both, so that I'm right either way, unless neither end up being the case.

[Djerf he/him]

I would think that stormlight is consumed in the same sense that water powering a waterwheel is consumed, it’s moved from one power level to a lower one. If it’s not then one could just hold gems close to a damaged shardplate to recharge it but I doubt that would work.

Actually the medium containing energy is never really consumed no matter if it’s chemical, mechanical or whatever, it’s just transferred to a lower energy level.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Djerf

[dj26792 he/him]

An idea I've seen thrown around in other threads that I think deserves a mention and some discussion here is the idea of a spiritual focus. The focus is the state of their soul and the actions that have grown out of that allowing the powers to always be there active and under the surface die to their actions and then they can just throw bindings around, or whatever it is that their power lets them do.

Chaos has talked about the focus in terms of the person choosing what power and how to apply it case by case like the metals for an allomancer, that wouldnt work for the spiritual focus idea, at least as far as I've seen it suggested, which is why I put that their power would be always active as long as they were maintaining the spiritual conditions that gained them the power in the first place, sort of like always burning steel but not pushing on anything until you needed to.

[Wispsy he/him]

I think it is fuel the people we see just can't hold it very well ATM, szeth claims voidbringers hold it perfectly

[callumke he/him]

An idea I've seen thrown around in other threads that I think deserves a mention and some discussion here is the idea of a spiritual focus. The focus is the state of their soul and the actions that have grown out of that allowing the powers to always be there active and under the surface die to their actions and then they can just throw bindings around, or whatever it is that their power lets them do.

Chaos has talked about the focus in terms of the person choosing what power and how to apply it case by case like the metals for an allomancer, that wouldnt work for the spiritual focus idea, at least as far as I've seen it suggested, which is why I put that their power would be always active as long as they were maintaining the spiritual conditions that gained them the power in the first place, sort of like always burning steel but not pushing on anything until you needed to.

I think this make a lot of sense; if it were a physical or cognitive focus, I believe that the person using the magic would have to be on some level aware of the focus. But that seems not to be the case with Kaladin and Szeth.

Physical Foci

Aon Dor - The Aons themselves

The Metallic Arts - The Metals

Cognitive Foci

Awakening - Commands (since it is possible to use unspoken commands)

Spiritual Foci

Surgebinding - ??????

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I think this make a lot of sense; if it were a physical or cognitive focus, I believe that the person using the magic would have to be on some level aware of the focus. But that seems not to be the case with Kaladin and Szeth.

Physical Foci

Aon Dor - The Aons themselves

The Metallic Arts - The Metals

Cognitive Foci

Awakening - Commands (since it is possible to use unspoken commands)

Spiritual Foci

Surgebinding - ??????

Not necessarily. Vin burns her metals instinctively, and has no idea what she's doing. She knows she's using magic, but she doesn't know she's using metal to do so.

[happyman he/him]

I think this make a lot of sense; if it were a physical or cognitive focus, I believe that the person using the magic would have to be on some level aware of the focus. But that seems not to be the case with Kaladin and Szeth.

Physical Foci

Aon Dor - The Aons themselves

The Metallic Arts - The Metals

Cognitive Foci

Awakening - Commands (since it is possible to use unspoken commands)

Spiritual Foci

Surgebinding - ??????

Not necessarily. Vin burns her metals instinctively, and has no idea what she's doing. She knows she's using magic, but she doesn't know she's using metal to do so.

I have to go with Sir Read-a-Lot on this one. It's entirely possible (in fact, it's the best theory I've seen) that the focus is Spiritual on Roshar; this is contradicted by nothing I've seen. However, since Vin was burning metals instinctively, I don't think physical Foci necessitate being conscious of what you are doing.

[Djerf he/him]

First of all, I have a very hard time to see any kind of spiritual Foci at all, I do believe there are such things but I just don't understand how that would work. And to my knowledge Roshars Foci could be a spiritual one.

Secondly, while writing a post (which got lost due to power failure!) in another thread i found this quote.

This kind of gets sticky, as it's all up to semantics. Really, you could say that Mistborn had a

different magic system for each type of Misting. But at the same time, you could argue that

something like X-Men--with huge numbers of powers--all falls under the same blanked 'magic system.' And take Hemalurgy in Mistborn 3--is it a new magic system, or just a reinterpretation of Allomancy and Feruchemy?

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in KINGS? Hard to say, as I don't

want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme.

Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these--though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

From this I’d like to ad another criteria for a Foci, the thing that decides what is a magic system and what is a power is the way the user interacts whit his/her Focus ( stab them, wear them and eat them ( Mistborn ) draw them, tattoo them and dance them ( Elantris)

[happyman he/him]

First of all, I have a very hard time to see any kind of spiritual Foci at all, I do believe there are such things but I just don't understand how that would work. And to my knowledge Roshars Foci could be a spiritual one.

On Sel, it's the shape of the Aons that determine what the magic does. In Mistborn (can't remember the world name) it's the atomic shape of the metals which determines what the magic does. In Warbreaker, it's the mental command that tells the magic what to do. In each case, the thing that determines what the magic does is the shape of something in one of the Realms. A spiritual Focus would then be something in the spiritual realm which determines what magic the person has access to.

On Roshar, you get access to the power based on the key moral decisions you make in your life. If we assume that such moral decisions are determined in the Spiritual realm, then a spiritual focus would be the soul of a person whose life embodies a specific set of morals. Hence the Radiants and their Ideals.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

On Sel, it's the shape of the Aons that determine what the magic does. In Mistborn (can't remember the world name) it's the atomic shape of the metals which determines what the magic does. In Warbreaker, it's the mental command that tells the magic what to do. In each case, the thing that determines what the magic does is the shape of something in one of the Realms. A spiritual Focus would then be something in the spiritual realm which determines what magic the person has access to.

On Roshar, you get access to the power based on the key moral decisions you make in your life. If we assume that such moral decisions are determined in the Spiritual realm, then a spiritual focus would be the soul of a person whose life embodies a specific set of morals. Hence the Radiants and their Ideals.

Of course, you get access to power on Scadrial by being born into it (or stabbed with it), you get access to power on Nalthis by having a lot of Breath, and you get access to power on Sel by being randomly chosen (or being sent to a demon monastery).

Don't confuse getting access to power, and using that power. These are two separate things.