54 replies to this topic

[Emeralis00]

News: so I asked a question releveant to my theory on the Q&A.
Does the intent/personality of the Shard affect the personalities of the humans they create?
and got an answer that supports my theory.
"It has some very small effect."
Small effect is better than no effect at least.

Hi. This is my first actual theory (not a question!) that I am putting in the General Theories board.
I came across this idea while thinking on Breath from Warbreaker and something Chaos said. (of course.)

We all know the tale:
Way Pre-Adonalsium shattering, there was a planet filled with humans created by...Adonalsium.
And all was good, but then Something Happened and there was no more Adonalsium.

set up for my theory:
Now each shard remembered what a human was, and the ones who wanted too, (i.e. not Odium) tried to re-make humans. However, the shards lacked the full power of Adonalsium and couldn't make humans the same way. So each shard that was trying to make humans made them the only way they could, but because each shard was different, we got many types of humans.

The theory:

• The shards could only make humans intelligent while following their principle of intent.
• Shards do not need to sacrifice pieces of themselves to make animals
• intelligence requires pieces of a shard in a Shardic Human.
• That piece of shard is still subject to what the Shard is.
• The nature of this piece is different for each shard.
• This piece of Shard is what caused sentience, but is not the source of sentience.

• For Scadrialese (Mistborn), it is the "Spark of Preservation". It determines how close that person is to Preservation and thus Snapping. Snapping being a way for the person to preserve their life. "A person can only snap if they see death and reject it." Allomancy, the power of preservation as interpreted by the spiritual and cognitive DNA of Scadrialese, is about preserving your own power.

• For Nalthisian (Warbreaker) Breath is a by-product of the initial catalyst used by Endowment, but it still must follow the Shards intent. It is Endowed upon others and used to awaken objects. Awakening is a form of sentience, but because it is created from Breath instead of a Shard directly it is temporary.
• On Sel, The Piece of Aona/Skai doesn't have much of a visible effect on Human Sentience. Except maybe the way they access the Dor, which seems to be a common power source. I need more information for this one.
• The Shard on Roshar is Honor, so honor is an intrinsic piece of Rosharin intelligence.

On a slight tangent: If Odium were to make a human race, according to this theory, those humans would be defined by their hate. maybe?
Well? Do any of you who have a greater understanding of the inner workings of the Cosmere have anything to say?

See also, Chaos' The principle of intent

Edited by Emeralis00, 26 September 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[CrazyRioter]

seeing as people who've given away their Breath are still sentient, I'm not sure it works. Breath is probably a piece of Endowment but it doesn't bestow sentience.

[Emeralis00]

Thats true.
Perhaps, the Breath that is given away is merely a by-product of the initial catalyst which Endowment used to create sentience.

[Chaos]

Just so you know, I'm very close to espousing this.

I don't think the giving away Breath thing is that catastrophic. We know that the Spiritual and Cognitive aspects are separate, but intertwined, from the way Shards work. Shards need a mind to control them.

This comes back to Realmatic theory, which we know little about. Shards can create sentience--aka a Cogntive aspect--that kind of makes sense. The Cognitive and Physical come from the Spiritual (Shard power). I think this is reasonable. But once Shards create something, they don't have to remain intertwined. For example, a Shard can create an animal, a rock, or any other Physical object, but that doesn't mean they have to have a soul.

It seems to me that the Cognitive aspect is similarly distinct. So in our case, Breath (the Spiritual) forms sentience (the Cognitive). Now they are separate things, so there is little harm in moving Breath around.

[Emeralis00]

Indeed. Its like adding heat while cooking. You need heat to make the food, but after the food is done, further heat is not necessary.

[zas678]

I don't know about that. It seems like the reason why Preservation was so limited in what he could do was because of...

Wait a sec. I was about to say because of his sentinence. Let me go back and get the right restrictions on Preservation.

Leras- Cognitive- Given up to encage Ruin for thousands of years. Led to his demise. (Ghost Spirit)
Leras- Physical- Appeared in the Ash after "talking" with Elend.
Leras- Spiritual- N/A
Preservation- Cognitive- N/A
Preservation- Physical- Well of Ascention. Used up every thousand years to keep the power from unlocking Ruin's cage.
Preservation- Spiritual- Given up to allow mankind to have sentience. Led to a decrease in power, though not entirely limiting.

Does that look right to everyone?

[Emeralis00]

I don't know about that. It seems like the reason why Preservation was so limited in what he could do was because of...

Wait a sec. I was about to say because of his sentinence. Let me go back and get the right restrictions on Preservation.

Leras- Cognitive- Given up to encage Ruin for thousands of years. Led to his demise. (Ghost Spirit)
Leras- Physical- Appeared in the Ash after "talking" with Elend.
Leras- Spiritual- N/A
Preservation- Cognitive- N/A
Preservation- Physical- Well of Ascention. Used up every thousand years to keep the power from unlocking Ruin's cage.
Preservation- Spiritual- Given up to allow mankind to have sentience. Led to a decrease in power, though not entirely limiting.

Does that look right to everyone?

That seems about right. I know for sure that Preservation gave something to mankind to make them sentient, since that was the whole reason for Ruin's deal.

[Zayde]

I don't know about that. It seems like the reason why Preservation was so limited in what he could do was because of...

Wait a sec. I was about to say because of his sentinence. Let me go back and get the right restrictions on Preservation.

Leras- Cognitive- Given up to encage Ruin for thousands of years. Led to his demise. (Ghost Spirit)
Leras- Physical- Appeared in the Ash after "talking" with Elend.
Leras- Spiritual- N/A
Preservation- Cognitive- N/A
Preservation- Physical- Well of Ascention. Used up every thousand years to keep the power from unlocking Ruin's cage.
Preservation- Spiritual- Given up to allow mankind to have sentience. Led to a decrease in power, though not entirely limiting.

Does that look right to everyone?

Preservation's power was limited by the nature of the shard. From what I remember in Hero of Ages, Preservation and Ruin needed to collaborate to create humans on Scadrial because Preservation can only preserve things, and Ruin can only destroy things. By their powers combined, they were able to create CAPTAIN PLANET!

But seriously, by combining their powers, they were able to meld the intents of both shards together so they could create humans.

It seems to me that the Cognitive aspect is similarly distinct. So in our case, Breath (the Spiritual) forms sentience (the Cognitive). Now they are separate things, so there is little harm in moving Breath around.

This could be how Nightblood gained sentience. If you are able to gather enough Breath together and have enough skill, then you have enough of Endowment's power to give that object sentience, similar to how he/she created humans.

[Chaos]

I don't know about that. It seems like the reason why Preservation was so limited in what he could do was because of...

Wait a sec. I was about to say because of his sentinence. Let me go back and get the right restrictions on Preservation.

Leras- Cognitive- Given up to encage Ruin for thousands of years. Led to his demise. (Ghost Spirit)
Leras- Physical- Appeared in the Ash after "talking" with Elend.
Leras- Spiritual- N/A
Preservation- Cognitive- N/A
Preservation- Physical- Well of Ascention. Used up every thousand years to keep the power from unlocking Ruin's cage.
Preservation- Spiritual- Given up to allow mankind to have sentience. Led to a decrease in power, though not entirely limiting.

Does that look right to everyone?

Hmm. I understand what you are saying, so on that level, I agree with you. But I am not sure I would differentiate Leras and Preservation to such a degree.

This could be how Nightblood gained sentience. If you are able to gather enough Breath together and have enough skill, then you have enough of Endowment's power to give that object sentience, similar to how he/she created humans.

You read my mind. Seems the most likely explanation.

As such, this theory, plus the comments in this thread adding to the ideas, officially gets the Chaos Seal of Approval (not that it matters. I'm often wrong.)

Espoused.

[zas678]

Really, the only reason for separation is this: Vin inherits the things that Preservation gave away, but not the things that Leras gave away. Does that make sense?

[Emeralis00]

As such, this theory, plus the comments in this thread adding to the ideas, officially gets the Chaos Seal of Approval (not that it matters. I'm often wrong.)

Espoused.

You have made my day, Chaos.

[Endra kin'Fox]

Back on the forums for less than 30 minutes after days of away time and I've found a new theory to espouse.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I like this a lot. Definitely espousing this if I ever get around to it.

[Zayde]

It also just occurred to me as I was reading the part where Syl is introduced in Way of Kings that Syl is another case where a normally nonsentient being (spren) becomes sentient. But I'm not exactly sure what's going on to give her sentience. It's clearly a very different process than Nightblood and Awakening, but both seem to involve their respective Shard's intent.

[Chaos]

It also just occurred to me as I was reading the part where Syl is introduced in Way of Kings that Syl is another case where a normally nonsentient being (spren) becomes sentient. But I'm not exactly sure what's going on to give her sentience. It's clearly a very different process than Nightblood and Awakening, but both seem to involve their respective Shard's intent.

I completely agree with this statement.

[lordofsoup]

I thought that all life cost power, but creating souls perminately used up that power. Ruin and Preservation's powers were only changing in relation to eachother, both were decreasing but the little extra that Preservation gave up made a huge difference ober eons.

[Emeralis00]

I thought that all life cost power, but creating souls perminately used up that power. Ruin and Preservation's powers were only changing in relation to eachother, both were decreasing but the little extra that Preservation gave up made a huge difference ober eons.

Yes, but there is a major difference between intelligence (cognitive) and soul (sipiritual).

[FeatherWriter]

Eh, I kinda skimmed, so this may have been brought up already, but I've always assumed that Nalthians' ability to give away breath came from the fact that their shard patron is Endowment. They are able to give away part of their soul because their creator is based upon the concept of giving things to others. And breath-giving must be "consentual" (though torture and such work) because it is supposed to be "endowed" upon another. It fits with this theory perfectly.

[Chaos]

Eh, I kinda skimmed, so this may have been brought up already, but I've always assumed that Nalthians' ability to give away breath came from the fact that their shard patron is Endowment. They are able to give away part of their soul because their creator is based upon the concept of giving things to others. And breath-giving must be "consentual" (though torture and such work) because it is supposed to be "endowed" upon another. It fits with this theory perfectly.

No, you're completely right. We were just discussing why giving up Breath doesn't remove sentience.

This theory is simple, yet elegant. That's why it's so good.

[happyman]

Actually, it seems to me that if you give up your breath, you do lose things. You lose part of yourself. Given that Endowment can apparently give part of himself and keep the rest, why shouldn't we assume that people do the same kind of thing, instinctively? From their Shard's Intent, they give as much of themselves as they can, but they instinctively hold back that little bit that actually makes them sentient. I'd be willing to bet that people who have lost their breath are actually a little bit stupider than before.