Those things at the end. [BoM spoilers]

[Navy Seon]

So are the sets faceless immortals a new creation of Kandra by the set or their leader, or are they the old kandra from the past who disobeyed preservation?

[spencer12347]

I think they are a new type of kandra. For Paalm had a trell spike and she was not like those things at the end of BoM

[Khyrindor]

I've seen some speculation saying that they are Svrakiss from Sel, and that Trell is Dominion. Svrakiss are said to take over bodies somehow, but I don't know if we've seen them on screen. Another possibility is that they are agents of Odium, and have a spren possessing them. 

 

Less spoilery title next time? 

[Voidus]

Yeah I'm hoping that they're Svarkiss, although they could just be essentially Kandra just created by another Shard with some slight differences.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Would be interesting to see if Svarkiss/breath/spren would provide the same effects as spikes do for kandra

[Weltall]

The description first put me in mind of Odium since red eyes are associated with his spren and the way they operate (the implication being that they're possessing an unwilling host fits too) but the Svarkiss connection is a neat one as well, even if that too could ultimately point to Odium if you think the legend dates back to when he visited Sel.

[KOOZ]

I think they are a new type of kandra. For Paalm had a trell spike and she was not like those things at the end of BoM

Agree on that; also, they seemed more Cosmere aware than the local kandra and seemed very much detached when discussing the cleansing of Scadrial, as if they are visitors only here. Also, would not Harmony have noticed if more kandra went outside of his control? There are not that many of them (unless I am much mistaken, for sure less than 1500 individuals?), so Harmony should be able to track them easily. 

 

 

Yeah I'm hoping that they're Svarkiss, although they could just be essentially Kandra just created by another Shard with some slight differences.

That's a question that has been bothering me a bit - if another Shard created a kandra-like creature, that would require knowledge of Hemalurgy - and is this not a Ruin-only specific art? Surely other Shards would not have innate knowledge of other Shards' magic systems? Judging by the creatures we meet in Shadows of Self, they are a pretty feeble attempt at new constructs - I had the impression that those creatures were the result of experimentation carried out by individuals during Era 2 (and Paalm was already "properly" spiked, Trell only provided  a replacement spike)? As such, these fake kandra are probably not kandra...

 

As for Svarkiss - is there additional information on them, apart from them being a concept used in the Derethi religion?

 

 

I've seen some speculation saying that they are Svrakiss from Sel, and that Trell is Dominion. Svrakiss are said to take over bodies somehow, but I don't know if we've seen them on screen. Another possibility is that they are agents of Odium, and have a spren possessing them. 

Isn't Dominion splintered by the time events in the Final Empire takes place? In which case, the red mist, the fake kandra directing the Set, etc, seem like actions of a whole Shard? Not to mention that Trell implies a single entity, rather than Skaze getting organized and doing Evil via Hivemind?

[Stormgate]

We have been told that it is possible for a Shard to be reformed after it has been Shattered. Perhaps Trell is the new holder of Dominion or the Dominion/Devotion combination.

[natc]

It's also possible, I suppose, that svrakiss were actually of Odium and date back to his splintering of Devotion and Dominion.

Edited February 9, 2016 by natc

[Weltall]

Agree on that; also, they seemed more Cosmere aware than the local kandra and seemed very much detached when discussing the cleansing of Scadrial, as if they are visitors only here.

 

Given that the thing discusses ending all life on Scadrial because it's a threat to Trell and how casually it does so, I think it's safe to assume that they're not native to the planet.

 

That's a question that has been bothering me a bit - if another Shard created a kandra-like creature, that would require knowledge of Hemalurgy - and is this not a Ruin-only specific art? Surely other Shards would not have innate knowledge of other Shards' magic systems?

 

Only if you assume that Edwarn calling them Faceless Immortals means that they operate under the exact same principles. He may not know enough about other magic systems or he may just be likening them to the most familiar reference he has. If they work more like voidspren from Roshar then it's a complete non-issue.

 

Even if they are kandra-like, hemalurgy doesn't require any sort of connection to Ruin. As Sazed himself points out in the epigraphs, the trick to it is simply in knowing where to place the spikes. If you know enough about it and you have the necessary intent, you're in business. And if the Set knows enough of hemalurgy to give themselves allomancy and feruchemy, they know enough that Trell should be able to figure out how to steal the human attributes used to create the kandra and koloss. But like I said above, I don't think we should take his use of the term too literally and they're probably a different kind of entity and he's merely likening them to the kandra because it's what he's already familiar with.

 

Isn't Dominion splintered by the time events in the Final Empire takes place? In which case, the red mist, the fake kandra directing the Set, etc, seem like actions of a whole Shard? Not to mention that Trell implies a single entity, rather than Skaze getting organized and doing Evil via Hivemind?

 

It's entirely possible Dominion and/or Devotion have reformed at some point, though I'm not entirely keen on the idea of essentially resurrecting a Shard offscreen like that. My thinking is still that we're looking at something that's of Odium (possibly with some help from Autonomy) and if there is a connection to Sel, it's from a memory of one of Odium's servitors rather than necessarily being something that was of Dominion. Fjordel doesn't really seem to know what they're worshipping (except maybe Wyrn) and the Svrakiss are supposed to be a force of evil in Shu-Dereth, which is the most Dominion-aligned religion/system of magic we've seen, and it sounds like the religion postdates the splintering of Dominion so I'm not sure how much we can take at face value. I don't think we're going to untangle the mysteries of Sel until we get those Elantris sequels.

[Asperity]

I wonder if The Set have succeeded in exterminating any other planets, if Scadrial isn't their first attempt.

 

 

 It's entirely possible Dominion and/or Devotion have reformed at some point, though I'm not entirely keen on the idea of essentially resurrecting a Shard offscreen like that.

If it has happened, maybe we'll see it in those sequels... sometime ever.

[Voidus]

Agree on that; also, they seemed more Cosmere aware than the local kandra and seemed very much detached when discussing the cleansing of Scadrial, as if they are visitors only here. Also, would not Harmony have noticed if more kandra went outside of his control? There are not that many of them (unless I am much mistaken, for sure less than 1500 individuals?), so Harmony should be able to track them easily. 

 

 

That's a question that has been bothering me a bit - if another Shard created a kandra-like creature, that would require knowledge of Hemalurgy - and is this not a Ruin-only specific art? Surely other Shards would not have innate knowledge of other Shards' magic systems? Judging by the creatures we meet in Shadows of Self, they are a pretty feeble attempt at new constructs - I had the impression that those creatures were the result of experimentation carried out by individuals during Era 2 (and Paalm was already "properly" spiked, Trell only provided  a replacement spike)? As such, these fake kandra are probably not kandra...

 

As for Svarkiss - is there additional information on them, apart from them being a concept used in the Derethi religion?

 

 

Isn't Dominion splintered by the time events in the Final Empire takes place? In which case, the red mist, the fake kandra directing the Set, etc, seem like actions of a whole Shard? Not to mention that Trell implies a single entity, rather than Skaze getting organized and doing Evil via Hivemind?

Not necessarily, all the uniquely Kandra abilities are purely genetic and shared by Mistwraiths who require no Hemalurgy, Hemalurgy just gives them sentience and I'm sure there are other ways to do that.

[Seonid]

 

Given that the thing discusses ending all life on Scadrial because it's a threat to Trell and how casually it does so, I think it's safe to assume that they're not native to the planet.

 

 

Only if you assume that Edwarn calling them Faceless Immortals means that they operate under the exact same principles. He may not know enough about other magic systems or he may just be likening them to the most familiar reference he has. If they work more like voidspren from Roshar then it's a complete non-issue.

 

Even if they are kandra-like, hemalurgy doesn't require any sort of connection to Ruin. As Sazed himself points out in the epigraphs, the trick to it is simply in knowing where to place the spikes. If you know enough about it and you have the necessary intent, you're in business. And if the Set knows enough of hemalurgy to give themselves allomancy and feruchemy, they know enough that Trell should be able to figure out how to steal the human attributes used to create the kandra and koloss. But like I said above, I don't think we should take his use of the term too literally and they're probably a different kind of entity and he's merely likening them to the kandra because it's what he's already familiar with.

 

 

It's entirely possible Dominion and/or Devotion have reformed at some point, though I'm not entirely keen on the idea of essentially resurrecting a Shard offscreen like that. My thinking is still that we're looking at something that's of Odium (possibly with some help from Autonomy) and if there is a connection to Sel, it's from a memory of one of Odium's servitors rather than necessarily being something that was of Dominion. Fjordel doesn't really seem to know what they're worshipping (except maybe Wyrn) and the Svrakiss are supposed to be a force of evil in Shu-Dereth, which is the most Dominion-aligned religion/system of magic we've seen, and it sounds like the religion postdates the splintering of Dominion so I'm not sure how much we can take at face value. I don't think we're going to untangle the mysteries of Sel until we get those Elantris sequels.

 

On the other hand, Brandon has said that he needs to write the Elantris sequels before he can get into the next (Era 2 if you count Alloy as 1.5, or Era 3 if you counts Alloy as 2) Mistborn trilogy. It could be that he intends to resurrect Dominion in those books, and not really deal with Trell until then. (Assuming Dominion = Trell, which isn't certain, but is an interesting theory)

[DSC01]

I got the impression that the Set's version of the Faceless Immortals aren't much like Kandra at all, except that they can adopt different appearances the way that Kandra can. Even if the Set knows a lot about how Kandra physiology works (not unlikely, given that they know about hemallurgy), they probably still think of the Kandra's shapeshifting as their major characteristic. So when they say that they've got their own Faceless Immortals, they aren't claiming any more resemblance to Kandra than the fact that they can change their appearance.

[natc]

I suppose the only qualifier for the title "Faceless Immortal" is to not have a true face and be . . . well, immortal.

So yes, that's most likely the case.

[Zalocx]

I'm really liking the Svarkiss theory, especially since it makes sense with what we know about Odium and Autonomy teaming up on Sel. I've made the case before that Devotion is Odium's opposite and Dominion is Autonomy's and that's why the two attacked Sel together. Plus with Bleeder harping on and on about "Freeing people from control" alot of people have been guessing Trell is Autonomy. Which make these "Faceless Immortals" be the Svarkiss fit very well.

 

Remember that the Derethi *HATE* the Svarkiss and their religion is based around control and hierarchy, i.e. what Dominion should embody. So it makes no sense for the Svarkiss to be Dominion's servants if the people who worship his Intent loathe them. But if Autonomy is the antithesis of Dominion than the Svarkiss being his servants makes perfect sense.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Zalocx

[Left]

I'm really liking the Svarkiss theory, especially since it makes sense with what we know about Odium and Autonomy teaming up on Sel. I've made the case before that Devotion is Odium's opposite and Dominion is Autonomy's and that's why the two attacked Sel together. Plus with Bleeder harping on and on about "Freeing people from control" alot of people have been guessing Trell is Autonomy. Which make these "Faceless Immortals" be the Svarkiss fit very well.

Remember that the Derethi *HATE* the Svarkiss and their religion is based around control and hierarchy, i.e. what Dominion should embody. So it makes no sense for the Svarkiss to be Dominion's servants if the people who worship his Intent loathe them. But if Autonomy is the antithesis of Dominion than the Svarkiss being his servants makes perfect sense.

As far as I know, we have absolutely no confirmation of Autonomy working with Odium, or attacking the Sellish shards. Please don't use conjecture as hard fact when theorizing.

I'm leaning to a svrakis version of Kandra as well, but I don't think that there's a shard that is guiding them. I like the idea of pieces of shattered dominion and devotion waging an interstellar war. It feels new, and really exciting

[KidWayne]

It's also possible, I suppose, that svrakiss were actually of Odium and date back to his splintering of Devotion and Dominion.

Yes, this is really the only explanation that makes sense. We know that Odium shattered the Selish shards. Also, from the Coppermind (which gets its info from Brandon's Elantris Glosary): The Derethi believe that the souls of men who hated Jaddeth during life become become Svrakiss. The Svrakiss are considered to be evil entities barred from entrance into heaven and having the power to take over the bodies of living men and control their actions.

So, we can reasonably guess that the Set's "faceless immortals" are Svrakiss. Also, the Svrakiss are servants of Odium which were involved with Odium's action against the shards on Sel.

 

 

As far as I know, we have absolutely no confirmation of Autonomy working with Odium, or attacking the Selish shards. Please don't use conjecture as hard fact when theorizing.

I'm leaning to a svrakis version of Kandra as well, but I don't think that there's a shard that is guiding them. I like the idea of pieces of shattered dominion and devotion waging an interstellar war. It feels new, and really exciting

While I agree that this would be exciting, I feel obligated to point out that Skaze ≠ Svrakiss. The Skaze are believed to be Splinters of Dominion. The Svrakiss are almost certainly related to Odium (consider the similarity to the Thunderclasts and voidbringers in the SLA; namely, the red eyes).

Edited February 16, 2016 by KidWayne

[DreamEternal]

I also think they are not simply a different grouo of kandra. The red eyes seem to indicate something more closely connected to the spiritual or cognitive realm, and the way Edwarn supposed the one who spoke to him had taken the body of a beggar, thinking taken instead of eaten do imply a demonic possession of sorts.

And if they are svrakiss, them being believed to be evil ghosts links well with the reference to Edwarn being allowed to serve in other Realm. Edwarn just being killed like that? I'd rather believe they considered him useful enough to be promoted.

[echaozh]

Voidspren can somehow possess a body too, and give red eyes to the possessed?

[Yata]

Voidspren can somehow possess a body too, and give red eyes to the possessed?

The Voidspren needa deeply crack in the soul to possess someone. We see it with the Listenes, they are quite incomplete beings without a Splinter's bond.

 

In the Cosmere the "mental control" is something really hard, also a fullshard (Ruin or Harmony) needs a lot of help to control someone (rememeber He need at least 4 Spike to controll an Human).

 

But it's possible that those things are a new kind of mistwarth/kandra without mental blockage... This ipotetical Species has no need of Blessing to gain sentiece and therefore are outside Harmony's control.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Yata

[Ari]

Wow so I entirely missed this thread. I'm not sure why you're all so set on explanations that don't fit the one piece of evidence the text actually give us. (that the being's eyes glow red) No other aspect of their appearance is described.

 

There is only one being we know fits that kind of description, and that's a Voidbringer. We don't know that the being was possessing someone else's body, and we don't know exactly why Miles likens their species to the Kandra when he says they have their own Faceless Immortals. (It could be due to voidbringer forms, it could be due to shapeshifting, or it could simply be due to the being displaying nonhuman abilities)

 

I don't particularly buy the explanation that these beings are kandra spiked with the "trellium" alien god metal that Paalm used. I'm not sure they could keep a sufficiently low profile given the psychological effects for Kandra of living with a single spike, and having two spikes would make them vulnerable to Harmony, and the Set has (for obvious reasons) been averse to opening themselves to his influence.

 

We have no evidence that any mind control is going on, so the only explanation I'd buy for Svrakiss being involved is if that's an Selish term for Voidbringers. Otherwise there is no direct evidence, or even reasonable supposition, to support Svrakiss as a candidate for Suit's visitor.
 

[KnightGradient]

Taking into account their description as well as their actions, Odium feels like the far more likely candidate. The Skaze would want to control Scadrial, not cleanse it. Odium, however, has been doing an interstellar killing spree for a long time, and we have no idea how he splintered Devotion and Dominion. If I was a planet-hopping-god-serial killer I probably would want to take care of the guy who has twice my strength and controls the second coolest planet around. Plus, the Fakeless (badum tsssss) Immortals have red freaking eyes. Just like Svrakiss, who quite literally hated Jaddeth. Just like Voidbringers, who hate humans.

[Pathfinder]

Taking into account their description as well as their actions, Odium feels like the far more likely candidate. The Skaze would want to control Scadrial, not cleanse it. Odium, however, has been doing an interstellar killing spree for a long time, and we have no idea how he splintered Devotion and Dominion. If I was a planet-hopping-god-serial killer I probably would want to take care of the guy who has twice my strength and controls the second coolest planet around. Plus, the Fakeless (badum tsssss) Immortals have red freaking eyes. Just like Svrakiss, who quite literally hated Jaddeth. Just like Voidbringers, who hate humans.

My comment is not to ring in one way or the other but to respond to your point that The Skaze would not want to cleanse it. How many times in science fiction are there very orderly, and logical computers that view humans as too irrational or too much of a problem to fix, that they decide to just wipe us all out? The way faceless immortal spoke at the end was very calm, very dispassionate, and matter of fact. Humans are being too problematic to their well thought out plans, so the plans must be accelerated and humans eliminated. I didn't see any rage or hatred like we see with Eshonai. 

[Landis963]

My comment is not to ring in one way or the other but to respond to your point that The Skaze would not want to cleanse it. How many times in science fiction are there very orderly, and logical computers that view humans as too irrational or too much of a problem to fix, that they decide to just wipe us all out? The way faceless immortal spoke at the end was very calm, very dispassionate, and matter of fact. Humans are being too problematic to their well thought out plans, so the plans must be accelerated and humans eliminated. I didn't see any rage or hatred like we see with Eshonai. 

 

The skaze are not "orderly" or "logical" as one of their prime mandates.  Being Splinters of Dominion, their mandate is to control (much like the Seons' mandate is to be devoted).  The skaze might engineer a disaster so that they can control the remaining population but cleansing all life from the planet (as the Fakeless Immortals threatened - wonderful term for them, BTW) would be overkill.