Those things at the end. [BoM spoilers]

[Pathfinder]

The skaze are not "orderly" or "logical" as one of their prime mandates.  Being Splinters of Dominion, their mandate is to control (much like the Seons' mandate is to be devoted).  The skaze might engineer a disaster so that they can control the remaining population but cleansing all life from the planet (as the Fakeless Immortals threatened - wonderful term for them, BTW) would be overkill.  

There is WoB that the structure of the Derethi being so strictly hierarchical is due to the Skaze influence. If that is not orderly and logical, I don't know what is. 

[Landis963]

There is WoB that the structure of the Derethi being so strictly hierarchical is due to the Skaze influence. If that is not orderly and logical, I don't know what is. 

 

Of course.  A strict hierarchy is also easy to anticipate and control, especially for the person or faction on top, and that I believe is the greatest appeal of such to the skaze.  I am also of the opinion that " to remove life on this sphere", as the Fakeless Immortal stated, is out-of-character for the skaze.  Especially since said removal constitutes an "acceleration" of their plans, implying that it was always the plan to kill off everyone on Scadrial, regardless of whatever they told Suit and the rest of the Set.  Seems to me like a skaze would simply adapt the plan to seize control despite (or even because of) the new advances, rather than doing the table flip thing.  

Edited March 21, 2016 by Landis963

[Pathfinder]

Of course.  A strict hierarchy is also easy to anticipate and control, especially for the person or faction on top, and that I believe is the greatest appeal of such to the skaze.  I am also of the opinion that " to remove life on this sphere", as the Fakeless Immortal stated, is out-of-character for the skaze.  Especially since said removal constitutes an "acceleration" of their plans, implying that it was always the plan to kill off everyone on Scadrial, regardless of whatever they told Suit and the rest of the Set.  Seems to me like a skaze would simply adapt the plan to seize control despite (or even because of) the new advances, rather than doing the table flip thing.  

At this point it is more of a matter of opinion. I feel something focused on control, would eradicate an organism if it is revealed there is no ability to control said organism. Much like Wyrm decided to take over Kae and Teo by force instead of conversion due to their resistance. That plan got accelerated too, and Dilaf was full tilt on laying waste to all heretics. I understand where you are coming from and respect that, but I still disagree. 

[Landis963]

At this point it is more of a matter of opinion. I feel something focused on control, would eradicate an organism if it is revealed there is no ability to control said organism. Much like Wyrm decided to take over Kae and Teo by force instead of conversion due to their resistance. That plan got accelerated too, and Dilaf was full tilt on laying waste to all heretics. I understand where you are coming from and respect that, but I still disagree. 

 

That plan did not get "accelerated" - the army appeared in Kae right on schedule (the fact that Hrathen was misled as to when exactly that schedule was is irrelevant).  Dilaf was a psychopath who is more of Odium than of Dominion.  There were always meant to be survivors in the invasion of Teod - you cannot convert the dead, after all - but if they were a vast minority compared to the original population, then so be it.  (Otherwise, why bother converting the king of Teod?)  Also, this is an entire planet the Fakeless was talking about eradicating - I refuse to believe that the advance of the medallions constituted such a setback as to scupper the plans entirely.  And unless it was always the plan to wipe out Scadrial (regardless of what Suit, or even Sequence, were told in advance), this is in fact a scuppering of the plans to control it.    

Edited March 21, 2016 by Landis963

[Pathfinder]

That plan did not get "accelerated" - the army appeared in Kae right on schedule (the fact that Hrathen was misled as to when exactly that schedule was is irrelevant).  Dilaf was a psychopath who is more of Odium than of Dominion.  There were always meant to be survivors in the invasion of Teod - you cannot convert the dead, after all - but if they were a vast minority compared to the original population, then so be it.  (Otherwise, why bother converting the king of Teod?)  Also, this is an entire planet the Fakeless was talking about eradicating - I refuse to believe that the advance of the medallions constituted such a setback as to scupper the plans entirely.  And unless it was always the plan to wipe out Scadrial (regardless of what Suit, or even Sequence, were told in advance), this is in fact a scuppering of the plans to control it.    

Elantris page 96 kindle edition:

 

"It will be destroyed," Dilaf prophesied, his eyes filled with anger. "Jaddeth will not wait while our arteths preach His name against the unyielding walls of Teo hearts." "Lord Jaddeth can only return when all men are united beneath Fjordell rule, Arteth," Hrathen said, turning away from his contemplation of Elantris and moving to enter the chapel. "That includes the ones in Teod." Dilaf's response was softly spoken, but every word sounded powerfully in Hrathen's ears. "Perhaps," the Arelene priest whispered. "But there is another way. Lord Jaddeth will rise when every living soul is united - the Teos will be no obstacle if we destroy them. When the final Teo heaves his last sigh, when the Elantrians have been burned from the face of Sycla, then all men will follow Wyrn. Then Jaddeth will come."

 

So the ultimate plan is to have all nations dominated under the Fjordell religion. There have been priests in Teo and Arelon attempting to convert for years. It was only when Wyrm committed to wiping everyone out that he sent in Hrathen as a distraction for Dilaf. If the nation will not bend, then it will be destroyed, every....single.....one. If the people of Scadrial cannot be controlled, then they will be destroyed, every....single.....one. 

[Landis963]

Elantris page 96 kindle edition:

 

"It will be destroyed," Dilaf prophesied, his eyes filled with anger. "Jaddeth will not wait while our arteths preach His name against the unyielding walls of Teo hearts." "Lord Jaddeth can only return when all men are united beneath Fjordell rule, Arteth," Hrathen said, turning away from his contemplation of Elantris and moving to enter the chapel. "That includes the ones in Teod." Dilaf's response was softly spoken, but every word sounded powerfully in Hrathen's ears. "Perhaps," the Arelene priest whispered. "But there is another way. Lord Jaddeth will rise when every living soul is united - the Teos will be no obstacle if we destroy them. When the final Teo heaves his last sigh, when the Elantrians have been burned from the face of Sycla, then all men will follow Wyrn. Then Jaddeth will come."

 

So the ultimate plan is to have all nations dominated under the Fjordell religion. There have been priests in Teo and Arelon attempting to convert for years. It was only when Wyrm committed to wiping everyone out that he sent in Hrathen as a distraction for Dilaf. If the nation will not bend, then it will be destroyed, every....single.....one. If the people of Scadrial cannot be controlled, then they will be destroyed, every....single.....one. 

 

First, this is Dilaf talking, who is, again, a psychopath who is more of Odium than Dominion.  The fact that Wyrn put him in charge of the Arelish/Teoish invasions does speak to the brutal nature of the campaign, but you don't rise to become the leader of a continent-spanning empire by allowing your aggression to run unchecked.  Besides, if everyone in Teo is killed, that would also include the Derethi converts already present, for example Fjon.  There needs to be some mitigating factors involved, despite what Dilaf says.  Jumping back to Scadrial, the scales between the two plans are too different.  Two countries are easily wiped off the map, compared with an entire planet.  The advancement of allofabrials, while daunting at first blush, can be used to the Set's advantage, especially if they somehow get to be in charge of distribution.  Immediately jumping from "medallions will soon be a thing" to "Destroy them all." is suspect, to my mind.  

[Pechvarry]

I suppose the only qualifier for the title "Faceless Immortal" is to not have a true face and be . . . well, immortal.

So yes, that's most likely the case.

 

This was my takeaway.  Edwarn literally classifies them as their own "Faceless Immortals" because they can appear as anyone (like kandra) and are functionally immortal (like kandra).  Not because they share any investiture-driven similarities (read: Hemalurgy) to kandra.

 

As for Svrakiss:  I've had my eyes on them for quite some time, so it's instantly where my thoughts leaped when I read it had taken someone else' body and had red eyes.

 

The important thing to remember is that, on Sel, the Svrakiss are little more than myth.  I believe at least 80% of what Dilaf says and probably another 50% of what Hrathen says/thinks on the subject can be safely tossed out.

 

In true Sanderson fashion, what's more important is the seed of truth that inspires the legend.

[Pathfinder]

First, this is Dilaf talking, who is, again, a psychopath who is more of Odium than Dominion.  The fact that Wyrn put him in charge of the Arelish/Teoish invasions does speak to the brutal nature of the campaign, but you don't rise to become the leader of a continent-spanning empire by allowing your aggression to run unchecked.  Besides, if everyone in Teo is killed, that would also include the Derethi converts already present, for example Fjon.  There needs to be some mitigating factors involved, despite what Dilaf says.  Jumping back to Scadrial, the scales between the two plans are too different.  Two countries are easily wiped off the map, compared with an entire planet.  The advancement of allofabrials, while daunting at first blush, can be used to the Set's advantage, especially if they somehow get to be in charge of distribution.  Immediately jumping from "medallions will soon be a thing" to "Destroy them all." is suspect, to my mind.  

So you say I can't reference Dilaf as representative of Derethi, yet he is a gragdet which is a leader of a monastery and is the highest rank in the organization, only below Wyrm himself. As to still holding that it would not be a genocide due to getting Eventeo to convert, or that it is Dilaf and not Wyrn who wanted the eradication here is another quote:

 

page 452 Elantris kindle edition: "you will kill the Teos as well" Hrathen said in Fjordell. "no." Dilaf said "others will perform those executions. i will just kill their king, then burn Teod's ships with the sailors still on them. Once the armada is gone, Wyrn can land his armies on Teod's shore and use the country as a battleground to prove his might."

 

Sel and Scadrial are most definitely the same scale. Both concern world domination. The only difference is on Sel, the Derethi were more successful/further along in the plan by having taken over most of the land at that point. All that would have remained after Arelon and Teo would be the Rose Empire. 

[Landis963]

Sel and Scadrial are most definitely the same scale. Both concern world domination. The only difference is on Sel, the Derethi were more successful/further along in the plan by having taken over most of the land at that point. All that would have remained after Arelon and Teo would be the Rose Empire. 

 

I will concede the point of the rest of your post, but the difference is this: Wyrn (and/or the skaze) wants people to rule over, and to force into the roles of the hierarchy.  The Set does not.  I would be shocked if Wyrn's (or the skaze's, for that matter) contingency plans had ever included the phrase "wipe Sel clean of all life" anywhere.  

[Pathfinder]

I will concede the point of the rest of your post, but the difference is this: Wyrn (and/or the skaze) wants people to rule over, and to force into the roles of the hierarchy.  The Set does not.  I would be shocked if Wyrn's (or the skaze's, for that matter) contingency plans had ever included the phrase "wipe Sel clean of all life" anywhere.  

And in that we will just have to agree to disagree. I understand and respect your opinion, but still think otherwise. 

[DocHoliday]

I will concede the point of the rest of your post, but the difference is this: Wyrn (and/or the skaze) wants people to rule over, and to force into the roles of the hierarchy.  The Set does not.  I would be shocked if Wyrn's (or the skaze's, for that matter) contingency plans had ever included the phrase "wipe Sel clean of all life" anywhere.

I'd like to point out that if the Skaze are the Set, they DO have a power base in the form of Sel.

BS seems to have big plans for the Elantris sequel interacting with Scadrians in some way.

[Landis963]

I'd like to point out that if the Skaze are the Set, they DO have a power base in the form of Sel.

BS seems to have big plans for the Elantris sequel interacting with Scadrians in some way.

 

It just seems wasteful to write off an entire planet as "uncontrollable" with a single unplanned technological advance.  

[DocHoliday]

It just seems wasteful to write off an entire planet as "uncontrollable" with a single unplanned technological advance.

I agree. Though it may not be a "single" advance necessarily. We don't know the motives or agenda of these RedKandra

[Landis963]

I agree. Though it may not be a "single" advance necessarily. We don't know the motives or agenda of these RedKandra

 

Agreed, although I still believe that the Fakeless' words and actions at the end of BoM would be out-of-character for skaze.  They didn't flip out when Hoid failed to become an Elantrian, even though that would have been a major boon.  I realize that they were probably aware that Hoid's experiment would fail, but still.  

[ParadoxicalZen]

We have to factor in a few points;

Firstly, The Wyrn at the time of Elantris is most likely not the same (presumably) Wyrn that might be around in Era 2 Scadrial so depending how events play out in Elantris sequels, the ethos of the Derethi may have changed somewhat.

Secondly, this decision to remove life on Scadrial may simply be the desire for expansion/colonisation, so if you can't do a subtle takeover and a hostile takeover is, I'd argue, practically unviable, then your only option left is to remove the problem (as to how, anyone's guess).

Thirdly, the Intent of a Shard encompasses all aspects of it's Ideal, and can take actions contrary to the Intent if the end result is achieving the Intent to it's fullest. So you could argue that if you can't have Dominion/control over an enemy, then you could display a different kind of Dominion (I.e show/display of strength) and completely and utterly destroy them.

I'm more in line with Pathfinder's view but i'd also argue that whoever is in charge of these fakeless would have exhausted all other options of subjugation before moving to this decision

[natc]

Actually Preservation can't so much as hurt a fly while trying to save the world. So technically Shards themselves can't act against their intents at all. But this case is getting other people to do it for them, which is indeed valid.

Unless you have a freshly Ascended vessel . . .

Edited March 29, 2016 by natc

[Pathfinder]

Actually Preservation can't so much as hurt a fly while trying to save the world. So technically Shards themselves can't act against their intents at all. But this case is getting other people to do it for them, which is indeed valid.

Unless you have a freshly Ascended vessel . . .

But that is direct action by the shard. By that logic, Leras should have preserved the letter of his agreement with Ati,and not betrayed him. He should not have caused a plot that would result in the death of Alendi and the deaths of countless people on the planet to accomplish in stopping Ruin. Just because the shard preserves, doesn't mean the people who worship it or does as it asks have to. 

 

Skaa died in droves under the Lord Ruler, but Leras weakened and under the full intent of the shard said he was awesome. The Lord Ruler certainly did not preserve the skaa's lives but Leras was cool with it because the overall status quo was kept.

 

edit: sorry, did not see full post on my phone earlier. Basically saying the same thing. Nvm!

Edited March 29, 2016 by Pathfinder

[IndigoAjah]

But that is direct action by the shard. By that logic, Leras should have preserved the letter of his agreement with Ati,and not betrayed him. He should not have caused a plot that would result in the death of Alendi and the deaths of countless people on the planet to accomplish in stopping Ruin. Just because the shard preserves, doesn't mean the people who worship it or does as it asks have to. 

 

Skaa died in droves under the Lord Ruler, but Leras weakened and under the full intent of the shard said he was awesome. The Lord Ruler certainly did not preserve the skaa's lives but Leras was cool with it because the overall status quo was kept.

 

edit: sorry, did not see full post on my phone earlier. Basically saying the same thing. Nvm!

I suspect it comes down to whether the Shard perceives that it is acting against its own Intent, like

Kelsier perceiving that he was hurt when Hoid beat him up

[Pathfinder]

I suspect it comes down to whether the Shard perceives that it is acting against its own Intent, like

Kelsier perceiving that he was hurt when Hoid beat him up

I agree, because otherwise if the Shard holder didn't have any wiggle room to accomplish its goals, then how would almost any of the Shards accomplish anything?