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Found 36 results

  1. This may have been discussed already in another thread, but did anyone else think Jasnah's conversation with Hoid at the end of WoR was really strange, especially considering that it was barely mentioned during OB? When Jasnah Elsecalls into Shinovar, she seems pretty untroubled (or as Brandon would say, "nonplussed") to find Hoid sitting there, waiting for her. This whole conversation is very unusual, considering that everyone else in Roshar for the most part treats Wit like a foolish court jester - no one is aware of the fact that he is intelligent and important to the larger cosmere. Jasnah, however, instead of being surprised to find him there, immediately begins interrogating him, assuming that he knows important things. A couple questions arise from this. For one thing, when does Jasnah realize that Hoid/Wit is more than just a simple court jester? Does this happen before she enters Shadesmar, or does she somehow learn more about Hoid during her journey? In addition, why does she still call him Wit? I suppose it's possible that she learned more about him in Shadesmar without discovering his real name (or, well, his main alias), but this somehow seems unlikely. She apparently knows, when she exits Shadesmar, that Hoid is important and that he knows things, and yet she still doesn't know his name. We know from OB that Hoid tells Jasnah about the reason for the Recreance (or at least, he tells her a part of the story). Is this the information that Jasnah was specifically looking for from Hoid, or does she just know that he is full of cosmere knowledge in general? Her pointed question - "Tell me what you know" makes it seem like there is something in particular that she is looking for from him. In OB, Jasnah only refers to her conversation with Hoid once when speaking with Ivory, and besides that she doesn't say anything about him, or mention him to any other character. Even here, she refers to him by Wit, which suggests that she really doesn't know his name is Hoid (or Cephandrius, or something else). However, she doesn't talk about Wit at any other point in the book, or tell another character that she realizes he is important. This makes me wonder if Jasnah is possibly working with him (or else she is just her normal enigmatic self and is paranoid about telling people anything). So here is what we know: 1. Jasnah seems to realize Hoid is important when she exits Shadesmar. It is unclear if she knew this before she entered Shadesmar. 2. When she exits Shademsar, it is implied that Hoid has been looking for her, and that she has possibly been trying to evade him ("How did you find me?"). 3. There seems to be specific information she wants to get from Hoid ("Tell me what you know."). It is unclear if she realizes that he knows about the Recreance, or if he proffers that information freely. 3. Jasnah doesn't mention Hoid to anyone throughout all of OB, and her strange encounter with him in Shinovar is not brought up. I was expecting the Jasnah-Hoid meeting to be more important in OB, because it comprised the final pages of WoR. But the fact that their meeting is barely mentioned at all is even more telling, and prolongs the mystery of their interaction. What do you guys think about the situation with Jasnah and Hoid/Wit? What does she know about him, how could she have gained that information while in Shadesmar, and how will she work with him/deal with him in future books?
  2. Hi Sharders! Long time lurker here but this is my very first post. Forgive me if this has been discussed but I don't think I have seen it yet though with all the ideas thrown around on this forum it is hard to keep track sometimes. I am of the opinion that the Fused are in fact souls of dead Knight Radiants who have been broken or corrupted by Odium. As far as I have been able to tell no where in Oathbringer does it actually say that they are Parshendi (it does say "they" and "their" though). From memory it says they are ancient soul of leaders and kings who are valiant warriors from long ago. From what we know of the cultures on Roshar, that sounds a lot more like KR than parsh. I believe that this would explain their access to Voidbinding too, as well as their deteriorating minds. As quite a few people have speculated, due to the Nahel bond replicating Honorblades, perhaps an unexpected side effect was that they get sent to Braise, like the heralds, after death. With the link to their spren broken at death this would leave their cognitive shadow stuck on Braise without hope of resurrection, giving Odium an unlimited amount of time to break their minds. Also with the Nahel bond broken, Odium would be able to easily fill the cracks in their sDNA with the requirements for Voidbinding. I think the KR learned this from Honor when he was losing his mind which was the final straw that caused the Recreance. Lastly, to back to back up this theory is the fact that all of the Fused eyes are permanently Red, indicating corruption by another shard. My other theory, along the same lines is that the Fused are the souls of the original Voidbringers, the first humans to settle on Roshar. This would be a better explanation for Voidbinding as they would have arrived on Roshar with it after destroying Ashyn. I do enjoy reading theories that get shot down as much as the plausible ones so if I am completely off the mark please let me know!
  3. So just a crazy theory here. From Oathbringer we know that the Parsh were attempting to get to Feverstone Keep right before the Recreance, which is where many of the KR left their blade and plate. I think that the Parsh could have been trying to reach Honor's perpendicularity to complete the shattering that had started earlier and then they succeded. When honor was shattered that killed any spen who were currently in a nahel bond. The KR were then left with dead spren screaming at them and immediately left their blade and plate behind. The felt they had broken some sort of oath because they allowed Honor's shattering. But they did not break their nahel bond oaths. With regard to the skybreakers, it has been said that they maintained their oaths. I think it is possible however that the skybrakers who were KR at the time still abandoned their blades and plate but continued their culture and attempted to recruit new spren/acolytes with the guidance of Nale. Finally with regard to the spen who believe that the KR had broken their oaths, they would have only seen spren deaths from broken oaths prior so it is natural to assume that the spren that died were due to broken oaths. Also it is unlikely that any higher spren was present as the stay mainly in shadesmar unless part of a bond, in which case they would have died. I think this may be true as the "secret" behind the recreance seems rather underwhelming and already know among the KR and the shattering o Honor has already been linked to the recreance. So I think it is possible that instead of breaking the nahel bonds, those bonds were instead broken by Honor's shattering.
  4. Something that really hit me, as a law student in New Zealand, was the conflict about who are the legitimate rulers of the land. The Parshendi are native to Roshar. By their invitation, humans were allowed to arrive, being given Shinovar. Humans, ever seeking to expand, were not happy with the small boundaries they were given, and took more and more. Eventually, the Parshendi were being properly invaded, and had to fight back. Now the invaders are considered the de facto rulers, and the natives are a minority. For those unfamiliar, New Zealand was an English colony before it became an independent country. But before that, the Maori had settled. Through a series of events that involved the injustices that colonialism has become known for, Maori now represent a minority of the population, both statistically and politically. The country is now in a position where it can question whether or not its own rule is justified or not. And it is not a question with easy answers. We study the justification for following the Common Law system of Western countries, instead of the Tikanga Maori law system. We study how the Treaty created for the English to be granted title is unfair and unrecognised throughout its history. Without getting too far into the politics of New Zealand, I thought it was analogous to the issue of Parshendi or Human land title. This is why I felt that the conflict was a lot more powerful than I've seen other people reporting it to be, even though it is predictable. The Radiants are bound by their Oaths, in ways that require them to feel justified in what they do. But when only the descendents of perpetrators remain to bear the guilt, and the victims are still calling for justice, what really is the right thing to do? Cooperation, though the ideal solution, is extremely hard to achieve throughout a history of injustice. New Zealand attempts to address this with affirmative action, but then there are those who say there is too little or too much reverse discrimination, and that racial bias still is a factor. I'm aware other analogies exist, especially the Native Americans, but this was what I was most familiar with. One last thing, I've always felt that Nale and the Skybreakers seemed a bit silly, following the law as it is written instead of by what it means (what could be called a strict textual, positivist approach). A little of that was cleared up with Edgedancer and Oathbringer (though Nale does say that he only asked for permission to kill Surgebinders after confronting lift, meaning he was illegally executing people before that), I still feel that they need a more developed sense of jurisprudence (philosophy of law) to give meaning to anything they do. The law exists for a reason, namely to bring order to the chaos of human interaction. This was mentioned many times by various Skybreakers. Despite that, by joining the Parshendi, they encourage an escalation of chaos and disorder. I'll make a separate post about this later, after I've had more time to think on it. Sorry for the wall of text
  5. So, going through Oathbringer a 2nd time, I have noticed some things that lead to a new direction of speculation for the possible cause of the Recreance, and I think THIS MIGHT BE IT! There is another great thread on the cause of the recreance here, but I think that this is a different enough theory that it should have it's own thread. From the very edifying, yet not quite satisfying talk between Dalinar and the Stormfather in Chapter 38, Broken People (emphasis is mine): My feeling here is that the Stormfather is LYING. Specifically the part in BOLD RED from the above passage. From Vorinism we know that the highest calling is the Martial calling, and the reason this is the highest calling is because Soldiers will be needed to take back the Tranquiline halls in the afterlife. This always struck me as kind of a dumb basis for a religion, but whatever, I thought it also kind of a neat foundational precept for a warmongering people, which the Alethi most certainly are. Now the big reveal from OB was that Humans were the ones that came to Roshar and brought their God Odium with them. What if, and this is the big Duhn Duhn Duhn moment, the spren that are Voidbringers, the ones who come and Fuse with the Singers are really good Vorin super soldiers from the afterlife that have been corrupted by Odium. Vorinism seems like a great religion to train and shape a people that, unfortunately due to the bad luck of the draw on which shard got their planet, they happened to get tied great cosmic wheel of Rebirth to fight perpetually. Maybe, when people give themselves to Odium (like Amaram, like Moash) they create a bond that is similar to the Nahel bond, and after their body perishes their cognitive and spiritual beings can be recycled in the great Odium war machine. What if Vorinism is the first native religion of the people that brought Odium to roshar? Could this be the ancient ancestors of the Alethi? So Honor and Cultivation created a set of Deathless champions, likewise bound the cosmic wheel of perpetual death and rebirth to keep the Ghostly forces of Odium at bay. But, the native spren of Roshar saw the heralds (and probably, overtime the ideals symbolized by the heralds became Sapient spren) and these spren were able to bond with the humans. So here is the kicker, what if the Nahel bond makes one more susceptible to be corrupted by Odium? What if also, when a Radiant dies, due to the Nahel bond, Odium can claim them too for his legion of Deathless warriors? What if the true reason for the Recreance is really that the Voidbringers are composed largely of Fallen Radiants, and that radiants that realize that if they keep fighting they can end up as Odium's newest recruits? There is that part in the Epilogue where Hoid casually mentions how he had danced with one of the Fused before, would he likely have danced with one of the Ancient listeners? Another supporting detail is that some of the Fused are more awake than others ("EACH REBIRTH FURTHER INJURES THEIR MIND."). Why would this be if it was just the first and foremost leaders of the Singers that were the voidbringers? More likely, those that proved their skill in battle but fell, Odium claimed, and got fresh recruits each Desolation. He might have even claimed them from both sides (but I think it more likely that he is just able to claim HIS people). Love to hear what y'all think.
  6. I'd like to bring your attention to Maleshi, now mentione twice - in WoR and OB (emphasis mine): Melishi – the sole Bondsmith of the last Radiant generation during a False Desolation. He imprisoned Ba-Ado-Mishram, the highprincess of the Unmade and commander of Odium’s forces (according to Mythica), who was providing voidlight for the parsh in the absence of Odium - already imprisoned by Honor at that time I assume. These parsh are ‘the devils’ the KR were said to be fighting at Feverstone Keep in Dalinar’s vision of Recreance. Not only did Melishi and the coalition of Radiants manage to capture Ba-Ado-Mishram, but also caused the fighting parsh to lose their ability to form bonds with spren. Around this time the Last Legion escaped all and hid until their descendants were discovered by Kholin expedition. Somehow they managed to avoid losing the ability to bond spren, so the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram is not the main reason other parsh were stuck in dullform. So, matching False Desolation, cognitive destruction of most parsh and Recreanse, we get Windrunners and Stonewards abandoning their Shards for people to easily find and take. If the reasoning behind it was what was done to the parsh, surely this wasn’t the best way to do it. They deliberately left both Plates (that could have been dismissed for all we know and disappear as a footnote in history) and Blades out in the open for anyone to take at Feverstone Keep. The only threat I can think of that is worth fighting with Shards are Odium’s forces, so I suggest the Radiants were inclined to think they did not permanently defeat their enemy. In the light of all that, I do not believe the revelation humanity isn’t originally from Roshar played as big a role as the Stormfather claimed. They disbanded for whatever actual reason, yet left invaluable weapons to humanity for future war. It is interesting to point out previous books claimed Urithiru was abandoned before Recreanse, yet there doesn’t seem to be much of a time difference between the two. How whatever was happening with the Sibling, Urithiru becoming unsafe and uninhabitable (for more see Urithiru the corrupted city), along with the tensions between Windrunners and Skybreakers, the only ones who kept their Oaths to present day, is related to it all remains to be seen.
  7. Ok... Just had a crazy thought and I haven't seen any speculation on it. Please feel free to shoot me down. I seem to recall (sorry, can't provide a quote) an Eshonai interlude that suggested the Listeners intentionally severed themselves for their Gods. The Recreance, we have been told, Humans intentionally severed their bonds with their Spren. Causing a great deal of damage and essentially killing their associated Spren in the process. I am getting to a point, maybe. With the advent of the Everstorm and subsequent healing of the Parshmens Spirit Webs, I began thinking. Usually a bad idea for me. However... What if the Recreance and the Listeners Severing were the SAME Event. Something drastically nasty came to light (Spren bonds and Listener Forms both.) And it was decided mutually by both sides that is was necessary? The Skybreakers would have abstained for, insert clever idea here, reasons and a group of Listeners, **idea reasons** possibly abstained as well. Crackpot idea built of Crem and Wattle, but I thought I'd throw it up. Dissect accordingly.
  8. Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return. - WOR Chapter 84 epigraph (decoded) Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence -- WOR Chapter 38 epigraph These epigraphs strongly imply that the Recreance was precipitated by the KR discovering some terrible fact. It doesn't seem to have been tied to any corruption that may have crept in to the Orders (the taxes for travel through Urithiru, etc.) Now, here's something anomalous. The Desolations devastated Roshar, killing something like 90 percent of the human population and knocking technology back to the stone age, at least sometimes. Yet when Honor was Splintered (after the Recreance -- he remembers it in the visions) there seems to have been no such cataclysm. Aharietiam is still seen as "the Last Desolation", which it wouldn't be if another apocalyptic event had occurred since the Recreance. Similarly, Odium Splintered Devotion and Dominion on Sel. But humanity on that planet survived; he didn't destroy the planet, depopulate it, or warp it into some kind of a hellscape. So why the devastating, lethal Desolations on Roshar before the Recreance? Because humans were fighting on Honor's side. Odium doesn't really care about killing humans, except incidentally to getting at the Shards; nothing much below the power-level of a Herald registers on his "radar screen" Therefore, my proposal for the Secret That Broke The KR is: Honor's been feeding us into a meat grinder for thousands of years to protect Cultivation and a couple of alien gods we'll never see. If we let Odium win, nothing bad really happens to humanity. Honor betrayed us. Our spren have been in on it, all along - they're pieces of Honor. So let him die.
  9. From Dalinar's vision of the recreance, we learn there were a lot more shardblades in Roshar during the shadow days than in the time of the novels. Dalinar seemed to notice more shardblades being dropped in front of Feverstone Keep than there were in the whole world in his time. What happened to all of these shardblades? When I read this chapter in TWoKs I didn't think much about it. I figured the blades were destroyed from misuse or something. However, WoR gives us a lot more information on shardblades. They are the remains of spren. Spren bodies are not going to be worn away from misuse. I don't know that anything in the physically can hurt a spren. The only things that could are words. In this case, the pen is truly mightier than the sword. A sword can't cut a spren, but a pen can define and trap it. Still, spren bodies are not going to rust or decay. They can be caught in gemstones but that will not destroy them. As for shardblades, they can't be cut or damaged by anything. I know this sounds like my other point, but my other point was more of a focus on the spren themselves. Now, I am just referring to the blades. They remain sharp no matter what they cut. The only thing that can shape them are the blades themselves. So we can be sure no one can just gather up shardblades and melt them down or bash them into a pile of scrap metal. Even in battles with other shardbearers the shardplate is the only thing that can be damaged. The blades never are damaged. So it appears shardblades are indestructible. Then where are all the shardblades the Radiences discarded? Did Nale and his Skybreakers or perhaps the Shin gather them up and store them somewhere? Did the blades that didn't have a mind to connect to finally fade away? So what happened to all of these shardblades? What do you think?
  10. Okay, so I've been reading the free chapters of Oathbringer on Tor, and I got to Dalinar's conversation with the Stormfather about challenging Odium to a duel, and I wondered "what would the stakes have to be for Odium to accept?" I knew that Odium would only accept such a challenge if winning would put him significantly further ahead than he already was, and he was basically winning the war at that point. So what could put him so far ahead that it would be worth it? What could possibly stand in his way that he could remove more effectively by drinking a duel than his other methods? Radiants. They could pose a serious problem to his plans, and fighting then could be really annoying, even for a Shard. What if Odium could ensure that, if he won, all of the Radiants would go away? Say, break their oaths or something... So what if that's already happened before? What if that was the cause for the Day of Recreance? This actually makes sense, if you think about it. We know that one Order didn't break it's oaths, so maybe they had all agreed to break their oaths if their contestant lost, and one order broke that promise instead of those previously made to their Spren, or didn't agree at all. I'm not sure which order this would be, but what do you think? Could this be it?
  11. I've seen dozens of topics on 'when' the Recreance happened, 'what' the secret is that broke the KR, 'why' they abandoned their shards en masse, and 'who' may or may not have taken part in the Recreance. This is not one of those topics. Right now I want to discuss 'how'. @The One Who Connects recently reminded me that abandoning oaths leads to a slower spren death/regression, while breaking oaths can straight up kill them. It seems that the Recreance happened rather suddenly, and we're told that multiple orders took part all at once. That, to me, screams of purposefully breaking an oath. It's possible that each order chose a different ideal to break, but more likely... which oath could all the Radiants break at once? Only the first. Life before death. Obviously the Radiants betrayed this oath when they killed so many sprenblades, but how do you break this oath to bring that about in the first place? I don't think this is a likely candidate for the broken oath. It felt more like the Radiants had a collective (probably very convincing) reason to abandon their posts, and I doubt they just did it in order to give up and die... at least they wouldn't have chosen to do that all at once. Strength before weakness. Similarly, if their weaknesses caused them to perform the Recreance, I feel like it would be more gradual, with only a few Radiants falling at a time. Again, I feel that - if they had a good reason for the Recreance - seeing it through and betraying their spren would take massive strength. Journey before destination. This seems most likely to me. If the Radiants discovered a 'secret' that broke them, it could be any one of the things that numerous other threads have discussed (again, don't derail my thread!) Regardless, I think it's safe to say that if the Radiants decided the Recreance was the only way to save humanity (or really any other very convincing end goal), then they would heroically go through with it despite the cost. While noble in theory, that attitude is wilfully putting destination before journey. I think making that choice is what allowed the Radiants to leave their shards as they did. I obviously have a lot of assumptions here Anyone have another idea on 'how' the Radiants were able to perform the Recreance as they did?
  12. I think the KR abandoned their oaths in the Recreance because they discovered that Odium had the ability to control their Radiantspren. I believe Voidbringing is Odium’s form of Hemalurgy. I speculate Odium used Voidbringing to inject voidspren into Radiantspren. I believe this is the Diagram’s “secret” that destroyed the KR. Here’s my logic: 1. I think Hemalurgy is the ability to transfer innate Investiture from one entity to another. @Cowmanthethirdreminds me that, technically, “Hemalurgy” is Ruin’s magic system, since it relies on blood to effectuate the transfer. But I think the power to transfer innate Investiture (by whatever name) is available to every Shard, subject to their Mandate (intent). Even non-Awakening Breath transfers IMO are Endowment’s form of Hemalurgy, since Breaths are innate Investiture. This WoB states Spiritual Realm powers are "not themselves of [any] Shard. They are simply tools." That includes the power to transfer innate Investiture (by whatever name). 2. I think Voidbringing (not Voidbinding) is Odium’s “possession” magic. He gains control of a soul by changing the soul’s innate Investiture. I believe Roshar’s innate Investiture always manifests as spren. Rosharans call spren a “soul.” The Rider of Storms is the “soul” of the storm. When Fleet dies, his “soul” rises into the storm “forever to race the wind” – a windspren. A Tai-na’s spren is its “soul.” 3. Voidspren IMO are Odium’s Hemalurgical “spikes” – Odium Investiture (voidspren) injected into a soul’s innate Investiture (the host spren). I think this WoB confirms that (emphasis added): Listeners bond with pre-Shattering spren. I think the only listener forms that rely on “hole-less” spren are the Lost Legion’s five basic forms. IMO, stormspren are a pre-Shattering spren Odium controls through a voidspren. In Dalinar’s Purelake vision, a voidspren-injected “host” spren becomes a Thunderclast. 4. In this post, I theorize Radiantspren combine two pre-Shattering spren. Those are the spren that give Radiantspren their ability to Focus two powers. I believe it’s possible for Odium to control the Radiantspren by injecting a voidspren into one or both of those spren or the Radiantspren itself, perhaps through the “hole” created by the combination. 5. Odium might have corrupted earlier KR generations this way. The Surgebinder War that preceded Nohadon’s Desolation may be an example. Vorin contempt for the KR may stem from their Odium-corrupted behavior as much as the Recreance. I think the Recreance KR discovered their exposure to Odium. The KR had to abandon their oaths in unison. 6. I think Odium has gained control of other spren. I’ve long believed the Heralds are spren – each a Horatius guarding the bridge between Braize’s and Roshar’s subastrals. Here’s Kalak’s description of Jezrien in the SLA Prelude: Some posters believe Odium corrupted Ishar as well as Jezrien. IMO, Odium now controls the Stormfather. 7. I think Voidbringing is reversible. My Odium mantra: Hate corrodes and divides. It spoils relationships. I think Odium’s Mandate (intent) severs Connections. His Investiture cannot form its own bonds and instead “unmakes” souls. IMO, voidspren are like electrodes inserted into the host spren. They can be removed without damage to the host. The Nahel bond, in contrast, mingles souls. That’s my speculation, anyway. Enjoy yourselves!
  13. Understanding Epigraphs about the Recreance Hello readers, this is the first topic I created (besides an introduction) and it focuses on my favorite mystery from SA: What caused the Recreance? I've scoured the book for clues and read many interesting theories on the 17th shard. After all my searching the best description of the Recreance we have in my opinion is still the three epigraphs from the in-world Words of Radiance that deal with this event. However, these epigraphs are hard to understand because we only have small excerpts so it is not always clear who or what is being referred to. I did my best to fill in this information so it is more clear and could hopefully shed more light on the mystery. Every word I added to the epigraphs is in parentheses. Of course I do not know what every noun is referring to so in some instances I left several options. So my question for you is did I make any mistakes identifying what group of people different words refer to, or did I leap to any unjustified conclusions? Is there further information that could be added to make the epigraph more clear? How would you rewrite the epigraphs in your own words? Thank you for any feedback! Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged (Who are they fighting? Voidbringers, Parshendi, other humans?), arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants' adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest. (What caused the Recreance: KR had potential to form bridge for next desolation, spren betrayed KR, Honor betrayed KR, dead KR go to Braize?)—Chapter 38, page 6 That they (Windrunners) responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these (Windrunners) were primary among those (Windrunners and Stonewards) who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named. —Chapter 38, page 6 This act of great villainy (Whatever caused the Recreance) went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time (again who is fighting?), many (KR) attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they (KR) withdrew, about two thousand (voidbringers, Parshendi, humans?) made assault upon them (KR), destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one (order of KR) said they would not abandon their arms (shards/spren) and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine (KR orders).—Chapter 38, page 20
  14. After clarifying in another thread that Honor was (probably?) killed after the Recreance, I got to wondering exactly how long. Was that the final turning point so Odium could whittle Honor down and eventually killed him? Or maybe it was something else. I am working with the knowledge of how well discussed this has been so far without any definitive answer that I feel is satisfactory. Maybe the Radiants abandoned their Oaths because Honor told them to, or the spren knew Honor wanted them to and got the Knights to abandon them. The reason for Honor telling them to is that he was about to die. Honor wanted the spren and Knights to avoid some of the fallout of him being destroyed, so he saved them by detaching them from himself. With the Oaths abandoned, the spren were stuck partially in the physical realm, which may have protected them somewhat, at the cost of their sanity. The Knights would be less directly connected to Honor, and not be hurt as bad when he died. I'm just spouting out ideas here, but I think there may be some merit to the base premise of 'Honor died right after the Recreance.' It would certainly make understanding why the Recreance happened a lot easier and more complicated at the same time. I am making the assumption here that there would be some ripple effect in the cognitive realm when a Shard is killed, which I don't think is unreasonable. There were probably some physical disasters too. Earthquakes, and the like. I don't know how Honor being killed would affect Radiants, but there would have to be some repercussions, so maybe they abandoned their Oaths to avoid those. It makes me wonder what happened to the order that didn't abandon their Oaths... maybe their honor was corrupted entirely? Again, just spouting ideas. Do you guys have any other ideas about potential reasoning for the Recreance in context of the premise that Honor was killed (relatively) directly after?
  15. I suspect that when Radiants who have reached a certain degree of progress in the Nahel bond die, they go to Braize. Several points of evidence have led me to to suspect this: The Nahel bond was not designed by Honor, but was an attempt by the spren to imitate what Honor had given to the Heralds. In WoR chapter 87, Syl clarifies to Kaladin that the Nahel bond was specifically based on the Honorblades. The Prelude to the Stormlight Archive tells us that one of the conditions of the Oathpact is that the Heralds would return to Braize to be tortured if they died, and were expected to return willingly if they did not die during a Desolation. To abandon the Oathpact, they had to leave their Honorblades behind, willingly and intentionally giving them up. They did so by slamming the Blades into the stone ground. This suggests that the Honorblades was the basis of their connection to the Oathpact, and thereby to Braize. The coded passage from the Diagram found in the WoR Chapter 84 epigraph references "the secret that broke the Knights Radiant". Apparently there is such a secret, and obviously it would need to be a very significant one. When Dalinar observes the Recreance in his vision (WoK Chapter 52), he sees the Radiants slam their Blades into the stone ground, as the Heralds did, and as Dalinar does when he relinquishes Oathbringer to Sadeas. This is clearly how the Bond is broken, though why they needed to leave the Plate behind as well is unclear, mostly because we know so little about what Shardplate actually is and whether it has any connection at all to the Heralds (whom so far have never been shown wearing Plate of any kind). Nale believes, following Ishar, that when the proto-Radiants "naturally discover the greater power of the Oaths"..."without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds." (Edgedancer, Chapter 9) This suggests that the Radiants are connected in some way we do not yet understand to Braize, and could potentially (though by no means certainly) bring a Desolation the same way the Heralds do. Whether Ishar is correct in this belief or not is not yet known to us. To bring these points together, the Nahel bond is based on the Honorblades, and severed by the same means that the Heralds severed their ties to the Oathpact. Is it possible, then, that by copying the Honorblades, the Nahel spren inadvertently recreated the not-so-desirable aspect of the Honorblades that connects the Heralds to Braize? If so, it is possible that when Radiants die, their soul(?)/Cognitive shadow/non-material aspect goes to Braize, as the Heralds do, instead of going through the usual afterlife? This would be an extremely serious side-effect for the Nahel bond to have, and it's hard to imagine anyone, least of all the Radiants who were all broken people in some way, stoically accepting more-or-less-eternal torment after their death. As others have theorized, we already have reason to believe that the afterlife is messed up in some way on Roshar, but if the Radiants suddenly found out that they were more or less guaranteed to go to Damnation, that would go a long way toward explaining the Recreance.
  16. Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. The Knights Radiant adhere to the philosophy that the ends do not and never will justify the means. Unlike Taravangian who is committing atrocities in the name of "The Greater Good" the KnightsRadiant are forced to work the hard way by living by ideals and honorably. But the Radiants en masse (except perhaps the Skybreakers) broke their oaths on the same day. This was after the Desolations had ended and resulted in the Nahel bonds failing and the Spren abandoning mankind. We know that a war was going on right before the Recreance and that the Radiants were fighting in the war and after they abandoned their blades and plates and left from what we see in Dalinar's vision in WoK (At least the Windrunners and theStonewards). What is something that would break the oaths of all of the knights at once, something that the Knights could be convinced was worth doing that would be dishonorable, that was for the Greater Good, that took the easy path. An unethical action that all the knights would do. I see two possibilities and they're related. There are two events that have happened in the past that require great power and would seem to break the Knights first ideal. One is the shattering of the shattered plains. The other is the enslaving of the Listeners. I don't think it is a conincidence that the last free listeners live on the edge of the kingdom that was shattered by someone. I think Natanatan may have been figthing a war with the Listeners before the Listeners of Narak fled and abandoned civilzation, culture, and the forms and retreated into the wilderness in Dull Form. I think the Radiants were called in to stop the war of join the war and were somehow convinced that the Listeners would bring on another Desolation. I think the Radiants may have been convinced to make a preemptive strike to avoid the Desolation that may or may not be coming and destroy the Listeners entirely before they could summon a Desolation. So they shattered the Area around Stormseat by working together somehow and enslaved all the other Listeners. This stopped the threat, but was such an abhorent, deplorable, dishonorable act, such an egregious breach of the first Ideal that the Radiants agreed to do that it broke all their oaths beyond repair. I haven't put all the pieces together and I don't think we know enough. This is just a hypothesis. I think what broke the oaths was the result of either the breaking of Stormseat to stop the Listeners, or the enslavement of the Parshmen.
  17. I go for two months without making a new theory, and today I make three. Well, here we go, anyway. This one will be shorter and more straightforward than the other two. According to Words of Radiance, one of the ten orders did not participate in the recreance. According to Words of Radiance, the stonewards were very much like their patron, Talenel. In particular, they were steadfast and unrelenting. According to the prologue of the Way of Kings, Talenel was left bound in the oathpact when the other nine walked away. It makes sense that the order that is full of stubborn people who would fight to the bloody end would be the ones who don't participate in the recreance. There is also a certain elegant symmetry to the stonewards being the order that did not participate in the recreance, and Talenel being the herald that did not forsake the oathpact many years before the recreance. This is all just speculation of coarse... But in the absence of more information, I think that the stonewards are a pretty good candidate for being the order that didn't participate in the recreance.
  18. Cleaned up version: We know one order of KRs did not betray their oaths, concealing that with great subterfuge. We see two orders (Windrunners and Stonewards) in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance When trying to answer the question of which order is was, point 2 is used rule those two orders out. But is that valid? Or could the "great subterfuge" be that e.g. the Stonewards either faked their participation or they had most of their members participate to conceal that a small number did not? This has come up in a few threads now, but more as a comment/idea. I decided to start this thread to discuss how viable one or both are. Note that these could apply to the other orders as well, but the obvious interest is the Stonewards. Pros to faking participation in the Recreance: Still have the entire team together. Cons to faking participation in the Recreance: Requires some impressive illusions, which suggests the Lightweavers are most likely able to pull this off. But we have no reason to suspect them, and a lot of recent theories favor linking the Stormwards with the Shin. That's a big secret to keep, especially over time. And a lot of people to keep that secret. Shouldn't something have worked its way into the history books? Or should Honor have taken notice? It seems like they would need to go to ground or come up with a mass cover. How the heck do you keep the spren from blabbing? If every order participated with at least one other order: Would the "faking-their-death" spren really want to be anywhere near a bunch of their spren actually dying? And even if they thought they could tough it out, could they really? Pros to actually participating in the Recreance: In theory much easier to keep a secret. The Stonewards+Shin tie-in makes a lot of sense thematically, and this makes that possible. Moreso if only 8 remained as part of the order. It could explain certain views the Shin have (with such a high price to pay, they may abhor violence -- or that was part of the cover, that may have over time become a new adopted philosophy. ) and why they have the honorblades. Cons to actually participating in the Recreance: Wow, that's a major sacrifice if you don't actually agree with it. ??? Some random thoughts/questions: How likely would any non-bonded spren notice the subterfuge? Would Honor notice? And if so, why not mention the order in the visions? Because he could not predict what state they would be in? Still, why not even throw in a quick line about trying to contact the this order? Was he in on the subterfuge? The Stormfather hasn't had a chance to mention it yet? When was Vorin religoen and the Ardents formed? In the "faking participation" scenario, that could be one way to cover up what happened, but I thought both predated the Recreance? Though that may not stop a mass influx of ardents (and they may be able to wipe that from the history books). Is there any other group or city that they could have gone to or formed? How long have the Shin been around (or their leaders)? I am particularly interested in ways that the subterfuge may have been noticed. For example, would it be easier from Shadesmar? If Honor, Cultivation, or Odium noticed, would they leave us any hints (and what may those be)?
  19. Not sure if something similar has been proposed before. When reading this thread, I started thinking about some things we know about the Heralds, the Honorblades, and the Nahel bond. Unlike normal shardblades, Honorblades don't seem to disappear if you drop them. (Presumably, you have to consciously unsummon it.) This can be seen when Taln collapses in the WoK epilogue, and when Szeth drops through the highstorm at the end of WoR. Taln's Honorblade was with him when he returned from Damnation. The Shin never had his blade. The other Heralds left their blades behind when they abandoned the Oathpact. These things seem to suggest that the Honorblades themselves are very much connected to their specific Heralds, but also the Oathpact itself. Taln's blade seems to have gone with him to Damnation when he died, and the Heralds who did not want to go back left their blades behind. Why would they do that? Was the Honorblade the thing that facilitated the Pact? We also know that the Nahel bond was an attempt by spren to copy what the Honorblades did. We've assumed this means giving access to stormlight and surges, but what if it went further than that? What if all Knights Radiant, by virtue of having a Nahel bond, were accidentally partially included in the Oathpact, in some way? What if any Knight who dies while still connected to their spren is sent to Damnation, to be tortured indefinitely? What if that revelation is what led to the Recreance? Who would want to continue being a Knight, if it meant eternal Damnation? There are some problems with this. For example, it doesn't explain why the existence of Surgebinders could lead to a new Desolation, which is something that many people (including one Herald) think. I would be surprised if the Recreance wasn't connected to that issue. Also, in the case of the Heralds, the Blade goes with them (or they go with the Blade), as a part of the Oathpact, according to this theory. However, we can be fairly certain that this is not true for the spren who create the bonds - they can be traumatized by the death of their Knight, but they aren't sent to Braize, and can rebond with someone else. This could just be explained by the fact that spren and Honorblades are different. Spren are alive, for one. A bit of a cop-out answer, but hey! Lastly, the Heralds return at every desolation, and no dead Knights do. And we have heard that keeping the Desolation at bay has been Taln's burden alone. If my theory is right, I think this can be explained by the fact that the Knights were never included in the Oathpact to begin with. Their inclusion is just accidental. That means that Odium has no obligation to fulfill his part of the bargain (whatever that means) with them. They are sent to Braize (because of the bond that imitates the Honorblades), but other than that, they don't affect the Desolations, they don't get to be sent back to Roshar, or anything. Just endless pain. On that cheery note, what are your thoughts?
  20. I wanted to hear how you all would tear this theory I have up. Posted from a phone. Before the Recreance the Knights Radiant has had knights for a long time- All the orders were strong in the fight against the voidbringers. Or were they? To become a Radiant one must be broken for the spren to bond with. But what would happen if everyone or at least most of a population wanted or wished to become a Radiant? The Radiants wish to help others, so that they themselves don't have to be broken and that the world would be a better place. The people would then try to learn and imitate the Radiants. In the books we have a scene from the Ardents where if you were to measure a flame spren then it would freeze in that capacity. What would happen if through time the Radiants hit a point where they could not progress because everyone was doing what was right. It was the epic kingdoms all lands were united against the evils of the world. People wrote down the kindness and the epic stories of the Radiants, but at what point does that become common place, when the oaths they have sworn came down to take a general view to the point that if a Radiant isn't careful would break an oath in a otherwise acceptable time? Take the example from the alloy of law, Maraci she explains her fascination with lights. If everyone is the same pure white light then there is nothing different, it would be the darker lights that would be different. Kaladin even shared this view against Dalinar in the opposite light, as he rescued him. (Every bright eye was evil and hid behind a few good deeds). It was Dalinar who was a bright light which let him gain the trust of Shallan and Kaladin. Should the land of Roshar hit a point where everyone was this pure white light then there is no room to shine. Only way to let more Radiants to be free of this is to create a stain in everyones memories breaking the "leash" that bound what others thought that the Radiants had to do. I believe that the spren of the orders were getting to a point that they were freezing through the exact way they gain access to the Radiants. Note I believe the Radiants could still surgebind because they were still bonded and still upheld the oaths they had sworn. The Radiants tried everything to release the spren of the self image that others created. Sizgil mentioned that the most dishonorable weapon is the sword. Which is the reason that the shardblades took form in the shape of a sword. I think even Honor tried to leave room for interpretation when the honor blades were made by having them in a shape of a sword. Anything out there that tears theory apart? Sadly can't devote time like I would like to and made this post while riding a bus Short theory shorter: Radiant Spren got caught in a limitation of the minds and stories of men.
  21. Are the Shin Stone Shamans the descendants/remnants/legacy of an Order of Knights Radiant that did not fall at the Recreance? Is that why they have all the Honorblades? As a slightly separate but related point: Was the only Order of Radiants that didn't feel betrayed, and so renounce their oaths, the one Order whose Heraldic Patron didn't lie to them about the desolations, i.e. Taln and the Stonewards? In which case, does this tie back to the theory that the Stone Shamans (the organisation that teaches that Stone is sacred and ward against its being walked upon) are the legacy of the Stonewards? Or is that a bit too much of a stretch? :-P
  22. I searched and was not able to find anything in the forum in regards to this 'hidden order', but please point me to it if i missed it. In WoR it says that only nine of the ten orders as one would not abandon their arms and flee. Does this mean that there is an order of KR that has been roaming Roshar since the recreance? If yes my bet is the skybreakers, but I may be misinterpreting this quote. “This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. ” — Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 20
  23. There's a question to be asked: Why Nalan hunts Surgebinders? Or rather: Why does he believe that Surgebinders may cause Desolation? Let's get a timeline. I'll be puting quotes in spoiler tags. There were no Desolations before humans were on Roshar. At first, Heralds were the only Surgebinders. At one point, spren figured out what Honor did and started bonding humans which resulted in Surgebinders. Heralds became patrons of the Orders, at the same time imposing organisation on them. We know that between Desolations Radiants fighted with some monsters (Dalinar's vision with Midnight Essence). We know that Heralds are sent back to Roshar before Desolation. We know that if they stay too long after Desolation ended, another one will start. Aharietam and Recreance: The Last Desolation was 4500 years ago. There is a connection between Heralds tortured and Desolation. Kalak seems to believe that if Odium cannot torture them to break them, he can't cause a Desolation. After Heralds walked away from Oathpact, Knights Radiant did not leave their posts. Steel stores physical speed. When Recreance happened, one of the soldiers in Feverstone Keep mentioned that Radiants should be fighting devils on the front line. So even after Last Desolation monsters showed up. After Recreance there were probably no Surgebinders (or next to none, since spren turned away from humans). Honor was Shattered after Recreance (or maybe Tanavast survived Shattering long enough. It is nor clear or known.) since it is in one of the Dalinar's visions Modern times: Taravangian believes that Desolation happens when Heralds break under torture and that spren came back because it was to happen. Stormfather forbidden spren (or maybe only honorspren) bonding with humans in fear of Recreance happening again. He has to accept Words, though. Stormfather sent Dalinar visions as demanded by Tanavast. These visions request Dalinar to refind Knights Radiant Spren started bonding humans at least ten years ago (Shallan's childhood) Nalan hunts Surgebinders down because he believes that Surgebinding may cause Desolation. Voidspren started showing up en masse after "Taln" returned to Roshar. But Venli is suspected to bear stormform earlier. True Desolation seems to be triggered by chain reaction: stormspren start hijacking Listeners -> large number of stormform Parshendi exist -> Voidbringers summon Everstorm -> Everstorm circles Roshar carrying more voidspren, triggering more Voidbringers out of formless Parshmen But Radiants existed for a long time after the Last Desolation, until Recreance. When Heralds abandoned Oathpact Jezrien said "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." But that wasn't their intention, they wanted to get free of the torture. They seem to consider End of Desolations as a side effect, not the primary goal. They know that Odium is somehow bound by their torture and they're afraid he will find a way around them not returning to the Damnation. True Desolation seems to be different to the regular Desolations, but we do not know why. The question is, why would Nalan hunt Surgebinders since they existed before without triggering Desolation? Why is the True Desolation different from the previous Desolation? How is it different? What is the exact connection between Herald's torture and breaking under it, their return, release of voidspren and start of Desolation? Do spren sense Herald's coming near to point of breaking? Discuss, provide more quotes and WoBs you find relevant.
  24. Because of the formatting (I need footnotes for parts of it), I will have to resort to giving a Google Docs link. It's approaching lengthy, and it's not fully complete, but I got two of the major points out of the way. Secondly, I'm not fully finished with even those two points; I've got the main argument out of the way, but I feel like I'm lacking a few things, so expect the document to evolve over time, including parts III and IV. If you're really curious, part V (the notes) should be enough to explain what I'm getting at. Link to Rambling: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AZg-dlftdqdBy32egf23Ar5ugtrfFgUYEXk6ljCL1LM/edit?usp=sharing
  25. I was thinking on the Oathpact and the Recreance for a while and I came up with this speculation: I don't know if what follows was already pointed out but I would like to read what do you think about it (though it's very far-fetched in some points and has few gaps). --- On the Oathpact, I think we can assume it's a pact between Honor and the Heralds. Tanavast gave them Honorblades and (maybe) immortality while the Heralds had at least two duties: 1) leading humans during Desolations; 2) keeping Odium at bay (trough suffering a lot of pain) between Desolations. I think duty #2 is "possible" according to the following quotes: - In the Prelude, Kalak says: - In Talenel Interlude, Taln thinks: - In the Second Letter it's said: So I think the Heralds talk of "torture" in a figurative sense: they suffer trying to hold Odium captive. When the Heralds can no more bear the pain, they return to Roshar (preparing humanity for the Desolation) while Odium regains his strength. Perhaps it's very arguable how the Heralds could keep a Shardholder captive (though suffering Hell) but maybe Honor lends each of them a fraction of his power while they are in Damnation. I don't know but let's pretend it's possible. After Aharietiam, the Oathpact is still valid and Odium is kept captive by Talenel. But, with only one Herald holding him, Odium had much more freedom than before. Now, I don’t know if in this condition Odium could flee from Damnation or if simply Taln withdrew from his duty but I think that, during the time of Recreance, Rayse freed himself and used this opportunity to kill Honor (maybe weakened from lending too much power to Talenel, in order to help him in keeping Odium at bay alone). After killing Tanavast, I believe Rayse had no much strength for fighting a Desolation but he tried anyway to further weaken mankind defense. He confronted the Radiants on the treachery of the Heralds and the possibility of fighting without their lead (likely meaning being destroyed by the Voidbringers). But Odium offered a treat: there would be no Desolation if the Knights Radiant gave up their positions. So the Radiants accepted and broke their oaths wile Rayse returned to Damnation, waiting for his opportunity (striking when men weren’t defended by Heralds or Radiants and Surgebinding was forgotten). I don’t exclude that (in this speculation) the death of Honor, that perhaps weakened the Nahel Bonds of the Radiants, had a part in their decision of stepping back. Now, in WoR it's said that only nine Orders out of the ten broke their oaths: I think that the latters are the Skybreakers: probably they are trying (from the Recreance until now) to kill other Surgebinders in order to keep the 'treat' with Odium and avoiding a new Desolation. The Order that didn't break his oaths could also have been that of the Bondsmiths: they (and their squires, because there were very few members) could have become Ardents and tried to unite Roshar in Vorinism trough the Hierocracy (against the threat of Odium). But I like the idea of the Skybreakers better. Thanks for reading until the end XD Sorry if my English was bad: it's not my native language.