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  1. So in the book Oathbringer, it is revealed that the Recreance happened in part due to finding out that this land was rightfully singer (Parsh), but more due to the fear that surgebinders would destroy Roshar, just as they destroyed the Tranquiline Halls - presumably Ashyn, or whatever planet they previously came from. However, why did the Radiants not think that they destroyed that planet due the influence Odium had on their surgebinding? - and I assume in that age they were doing voidbindings instead of surgebindings. They survived millennia on Roshar with their surgebindings as they were under the influence of Honor and Cultivation. Why would they think that they were still somehow going to destroy it? Now back to the 1st point - rightful parsh land. I think it is correctly assumed that this in whole wouldn't and didn't cause the Recreance. Humans generally don't feel remorse over the fact that they are defending invaded land - they do it all the time against other humans (and this is in real life, and on Roshar). Humans are greedy like that, even if they are 'noble' Radiants, as their spren themselves didn't view it in a bad light.
  2. So in combing through @Extesian's awesome collection of WOBs (link included below the WOB), I found one that I hadn't seen before that I think has some pretty serious potential ramifications. I for one, am very underwhelmed by the official explanation for the Recreance. Here is the official explanation, as reenacted in Bill and Ted's Recreant Adventure: KR Bill: Dude, look in the mirror bro, there's the true voidbringer. (KR Ted performs the patented Keanu Reeve's "whoa" head shake) KR Ted: I know, we're like human bombs. Guess it's time to start killin' our spren. I've speculated about this before, but given the additional fact that a recently deceased Vessel makes it easier for practitioner's of that Vessel's magic to become Cognitive Shadows, leads me to more firmly believe that there is a different and more compelling reason for the Recreance. Namely that the Nahel Bond allowed Odium to keep the KRs from transitioning to the Great Beyond, and more to the point, allowed him to torture their souls on Braize until they cracked and became his willing servants (and if they don't crack, then he gets to torture them in perpetuity, which if you're the shard of Odious Hatred that's a win win situation). Here are some general considerations (sources for some are in referenced spoiler tags below): We know that the afterlife on Roshar is weird, and that Ancient Singer Cognitive Shadows can come back as the Fuzed. We know that the Nahel Bond was patterned on the Honorblades. How much of the function of the Honorblade was copied? Was the linkage to the Oathpact, i.e. a torturous trip to Braize after death, included in the package deal? The Fuzed don't seem to be using Voidbinding, instead they seem to be using hacked surgebinding fueled by voidlight. The Fuzed seem largely ineffectual, and seem to be the advanced guard of the Desolation. The only real heavy hitters to come out for this battle on team Odium were the Thunderclasts. Puuli, who I would nominate as the Shard of Schadenfreude, in his interlude talks of the ones that will come with light in their pocket to destroy, and refers to them as "sailors lost on an infinite sea".* In Shadesmar, before the battle of Thaylenah Fields, some mysterious spren that aren't gold or red (so neither voidspren or corrupted spren, but described rather as dark) are massed before the oathgate and are waiting to bond with the disillusioned yet soon to be Thrilled troops of House Sadeas. I think this is significant.** So here is the speculative chain, fully assembled. Humans were starting to bond spren in imitation of the Nahel Bond before the KRs were established. Honor was splintering in slow motion (possibly even since the inception of the Oathpact). The Singer's played Let's make a deal with Odium, and the Royals were created (cognitive shadows of the Ancient Singers). Just like the spren got bored of hanging around the Singers, Odium too tired of them (not very passionate those Singers) and began to harvest KR souls as Tanavast's slow death advanced in terminality, causing their increasing formation as Cognitive Shadows. KRs at some point before the Recreance figure out that the Nahel bond allows Odium to trap their soul in Braize and torture them until they break (like the Heralds). The KRs realize that by continuing to fight they are opening themselves up to eternal damnation and unwittingly strengthening Odium's forces, so they decide to voluntarily kill their spren and sever their Nahel bonds. The Cataclysmic event, foreshadowed in the Puuli interlude, is coming, where the broken KRs will come from the Origin of Storms and unleash biblical devastation on the land. Possibly Thunderclasts are really broken KR Stonewards (the essence for their order is Rock and Stone), and the ability of Thunderclasts to form their body out of stone is the only true application of Voidbinding that we have seen on screen. If this is the case, we can expect 9 more orders of Eldritch monster level bad-asses to form from their respective Order's Essences. I would hate to see a broken Voidbinding Bondsmith (made out of Meat/Flesh) or a broken voidbinding Lightweaver (made out of Blood, ehh, gross). This theory also has the benefit of having humans be the original and the current voidbringers, which I think is pretty slick, and the additional benefit of being a satisfying explanation for the cause of the Recreance. Interested to hear what you all think about this. 5. *Full quote of Puuli's interlude: 6. **Text from the Battle of Thaylenah Field about the "dark spren" (really relevant bits highlighted):
  3. I believe that Cusicesh is the mysterious Sibling the Stormfather speaks of. This post will explain why I feel this is a plausible theory. First, we know that Spren are manifestations of the thoughts of sentient beings and in Roshar everything, no matter how large or small, gets manifested. Now, what's the largest concepts humanity tends to anthropromorsize? Land, Sky and Sea. Nightwatcher looks like living land. Stormfather manifests in the Physical Realm as a literal face in the sky. What does Cusicesh look like? Here's the quote: At precisely seven forty-six in the morning—the locals could use it to set their timepieces—an enormous, sea-blue spren surged from the waters of the bay. It was translucent, and though it appeared to throw out waves as it rose, that was illusory. The actual surface of the bay wasn’t disturbed. It takes the shape of a large jet of water, Axies thought, creating a tattoo along an open portion of his leg, scribing the words. The center is of the deepest blue, like the ocean depths, though the outer edges are a lighter shade. Judging by the masts of the nearby ships, I’d say that the spren has grown to a height of at least a hundred feet. One of the largest I’ve ever seen. To me, that seems like a perfect candidate for the Mega Spren personification of the Sea. That Cusicesh is important is obvious; Brandon would not waste an interlude describing it otherwise. However that isn't quite enough to come to any firm conclusion of its nature. For that, we turn to the Recreance. We know that at the time of the Recreance there was only one Bondsmith of the possible 3. We know that Bondsmith was not bonded to the Stormfather; Honor was Investing him before his Shattering. We can assume that the Nightwatcher wasn't the one who was bonded as she is still viable and operational. Also, Cultivation lives and seems to be holding her leash. We know that 9 of 10 Orders abandoned their Oaths. The Skybreakers stayed true; the Bondsmiths did not. So, one Bondsmith abandoned the Order. The Recreance damaged all the Spren who held a bond at the time. Stormfather and Nightwatcher may be crazy but they don't seem to be fundamentally damaged. That leaves Cusicesh, a Mega Spren, one of a kind, one who looks like the Ocean given form, and one who looks damaged as the Sibling bonded during the Recreance must be damaged. It is the perfect candidate for the third Sibling. Furthermore, I believe the faces displayed by the Spren are the faces of every Radient whose Oaths were abandoned during the Recreance, sort of a living memory of a forgotten time.
  4. There's a question to be asked: Why Nalan hunts Surgebinders? Or rather: Why does he believe that Surgebinders may cause Desolation? Let's get a timeline. I'll be puting quotes in spoiler tags. There were no Desolations before humans were on Roshar. At first, Heralds were the only Surgebinders. At one point, spren figured out what Honor did and started bonding humans which resulted in Surgebinders. Heralds became patrons of the Orders, at the same time imposing organisation on them. We know that between Desolations Radiants fighted with some monsters (Dalinar's vision with Midnight Essence). We know that Heralds are sent back to Roshar before Desolation. We know that if they stay too long after Desolation ended, another one will start. Aharietam and Recreance: The Last Desolation was 4500 years ago. There is a connection between Heralds tortured and Desolation. Kalak seems to believe that if Odium cannot torture them to break them, he can't cause a Desolation. After Heralds walked away from Oathpact, Knights Radiant did not leave their posts. Steel stores physical speed. When Recreance happened, one of the soldiers in Feverstone Keep mentioned that Radiants should be fighting devils on the front line. So even after Last Desolation monsters showed up. After Recreance there were probably no Surgebinders (or next to none, since spren turned away from humans). Honor was Shattered after Recreance (or maybe Tanavast survived Shattering long enough. It is nor clear or known.) since it is in one of the Dalinar's visions Modern times: Taravangian believes that Desolation happens when Heralds break under torture and that spren came back because it was to happen. Stormfather forbidden spren (or maybe only honorspren) bonding with humans in fear of Recreance happening again. He has to accept Words, though. Stormfather sent Dalinar visions as demanded by Tanavast. These visions request Dalinar to refind Knights Radiant Spren started bonding humans at least ten years ago (Shallan's childhood) Nalan hunts Surgebinders down because he believes that Surgebinding may cause Desolation. Voidspren started showing up en masse after "Taln" returned to Roshar. But Venli is suspected to bear stormform earlier. True Desolation seems to be triggered by chain reaction: stormspren start hijacking Listeners -> large number of stormform Parshendi exist -> Voidbringers summon Everstorm -> Everstorm circles Roshar carrying more voidspren, triggering more Voidbringers out of formless Parshmen But Radiants existed for a long time after the Last Desolation, until Recreance. When Heralds abandoned Oathpact Jezrien said "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." But that wasn't their intention, they wanted to get free of the torture. They seem to consider End of Desolations as a side effect, not the primary goal. They know that Odium is somehow bound by their torture and they're afraid he will find a way around them not returning to the Damnation. True Desolation seems to be different to the regular Desolations, but we do not know why. The question is, why would Nalan hunt Surgebinders since they existed before without triggering Desolation? Why is the True Desolation different from the previous Desolation? How is it different? What is the exact connection between Herald's torture and breaking under it, their return, release of voidspren and start of Desolation? Do spren sense Herald's coming near to point of breaking? Discuss, provide more quotes and WoBs you find relevant.
  5. Right, so the other day I was considering the use of spheres and gemstones as money on Roshar. Yeah they are super useful for holding stormlight and giving off light so it makes sense that they would be used for money. But (and this is where the theory starts) where do those gemstones actually come from? We know from a recent WOB that Roshar specifically does not have plate tectonics. I'm not a geologist or nothing, but it seems like this would make it rare or even impossible for gemstones to be created naturally by underground pressure. In addition to this, we have never heard of a single person having the profession of a miner who would get those gems in the first place. Considering all of this, where do we know we can find gems on Roshar? Inside the bodies of certain creatures that inhabit the planet. In the early days of Roshar, before the coming of humans, the Parshman were probably the largest population of organisms that had gemhearts. What if one of the reasons the humans who came to Roshar started to try and conquer the world was because they figured out that they could get very valuable gems by cutting them out of the bodies of the indigenous people? This may have inspired a full scale slaughter and war of greed against the natives of the planet. What if the monetary spheres used by Rosharans are the cut up gemhearts of generations of Parshman?
  6. In OB we learn the apparent reason for the Recreance: Humans had been the original Voidbringers and would eventually destroy Roshar by using surges, as we hear from the Stormfather himself: The thing is, it does not make a lot of sense. A: They could have chosen a way less dramatic exit. They could have broken their bonds and still retain the Shardplates and Blades. This way their order would have remained as a powerful political institution to prepare humankind for the next desolation. Or in general to keep order in Roshar. B: There has been one Knight Radiant order around for 4000 years, they did not destroy Roshar and possibly never will. Therefore, behold my grand theory! The Radiants abandoned their oaths because they realized, humans are Odium`s children. This needs a bit of explanation. So let`s back off a bit shall we? Rosharan came from Ashyn/ the Tranquiline Halls, which they destroyed by using Surges. They had access to these Surges but they were likewise under Odium`s influence. I think it is likely Odium created Rosharan humans on Ashyn Edit: This is definitly not true as seen by WoB below quoted by RShara. Anyways, it is apparent Odium has a deep bond to Rosharan humans as he speaks to Dalinar and Taravangian: It is made clear in Dalinar`s passage explicitly and in T.`s implicitly that old Rayse regards Rosharan humans as his children. Maybe this is a special trait he brings to the power of Odium. He does not want to destroy them, he wants to corrupt Honors influence and ethics and bring them to his side. We know for some time that the question of whether you are on Honors or Odium`s side is not as much about your ends, but about what means you are willing to employ to get there. Journey before destination is Honor`s path. Passion before anything else Odium`s. Now, if we look around Roshar at the beginning of SA, we see Odium`s influence everywhere, Honor`s almost nowhere. Alethi culture is all about game, the thrill, the glory, the victory. The codes of Honor are followed by exactly no one except House Kholin. The Way of Kings used to be a handbook for any ruler, almost nobody is reading it in our time. The Vorin church reveres the Almighty, but does not put ethical, “honorable” restraints on anyone. In fact in Kholinar we see that one Ardent paving the way for the arrival of the Unmade. The Shin follow the code of their tradition too much. So much so they miss the time, for which they were created in the first place. They make Szeth Truthless for this. In Azir it is almost the same. The protocol has become so elaborate, it makes responding to challenges almost impossible. Powerful groups in both countries only care about staying in power, not about how this power is exercised. And then there is the enslavement of an entire race, about which nobody cares about…. I can think of two explanations for this horrible state of affairs. 1) Humans on Roshar as Odium`s children are more drawn to Odium than they are to Honor. 2) It was Odium`s subtle influence on his children over 4000 years that created this; Or a combination of the two. This is the explanation for point A). If the Radiants had stayed as a powerful force on Roshar, their Order would have been corrupted by the shortcomings of human nature or Odium`s influence. They would have become like the Skybreakers or the Vorin church: Organizations corrupted beyond recognition. Odium would only need to ask the Bondsmiths to release him end they would have freed him. By terminating the Order they gave future Radiants the chance to stand up to Odium. It is likely that the enslavement of the Listeners gave the deciding impulse to make them realize they were becoming a tool of Odium. Regarding point B), I propose it is not exactly Surgebinders onto themselves that are destroying worlds. It is Surgbinders under Odiums influence doing it, as it happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar with corrupted KR orders. The Knights realized that they were the children of Odium/ Voidbringers. Therefore they had to accept that their order would be corrupted, even if they had just abandoned the spren and carried on without them. The Skybreakers realized they would be immune to Odium`s influence, if they`d be completely emotionless. This in turn perverted the intent of their order.
  7. Greetings everyone! I'm new here, and glad to be a member. I was wondering if it was known (mentioned in the books or in WoB) if the Recreance happened after or before the shattering of the plains. I'm fairly certain it's hinted multiple times that the plains seemed "intentionally shattered", though I'm unsure if this is verified for good. As to why this felt relevent to the recreance, it's purely my speculation. I just felt it contrived for whole orders of radiants to abandon their oaths as one due to a vague feeling that they may end the world. But in the face of concrete proof in the form of a demonstration, perhaps it's plausible. Molding and fracturing rock seems to be the within the portfolio of the tension and cohesion surges. If the shattering of the plains was a result of surgebinding, it could explain the sudden impetus they had to forswear as one. Again I could be wrong on multiple counts. Also I doubt I'm the first to this conclusion. So, if there's any discussion going on elsewhere that answers me, or if anyone has the answers here, I'd be greatly obliged! Thanks! I don't post often and visit kinda rarely, but really I look forward to being a part of the community!
  8. I suspect that when Radiants who have reached a certain degree of progress in the Nahel bond die, they go to Braize. Several points of evidence have led me to to suspect this: The Nahel bond was not designed by Honor, but was an attempt by the spren to imitate what Honor had given to the Heralds. In WoR chapter 87, Syl clarifies to Kaladin that the Nahel bond was specifically based on the Honorblades. The Prelude to the Stormlight Archive tells us that one of the conditions of the Oathpact is that the Heralds would return to Braize to be tortured if they died, and were expected to return willingly if they did not die during a Desolation. To abandon the Oathpact, they had to leave their Honorblades behind, willingly and intentionally giving them up. They did so by slamming the Blades into the stone ground. This suggests that the Honorblades was the basis of their connection to the Oathpact, and thereby to Braize. The coded passage from the Diagram found in the WoR Chapter 84 epigraph references "the secret that broke the Knights Radiant". Apparently there is such a secret, and obviously it would need to be a very significant one. When Dalinar observes the Recreance in his vision (WoK Chapter 52), he sees the Radiants slam their Blades into the stone ground, as the Heralds did, and as Dalinar does when he relinquishes Oathbringer to Sadeas. This is clearly how the Bond is broken, though why they needed to leave the Plate behind as well is unclear, mostly because we know so little about what Shardplate actually is and whether it has any connection at all to the Heralds (whom so far have never been shown wearing Plate of any kind). Nale believes, following Ishar, that when the proto-Radiants "naturally discover the greater power of the Oaths"..."without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds." (Edgedancer, Chapter 9) This suggests that the Radiants are connected in some way we do not yet understand to Braize, and could potentially (though by no means certainly) bring a Desolation the same way the Heralds do. Whether Ishar is correct in this belief or not is not yet known to us. To bring these points together, the Nahel bond is based on the Honorblades, and severed by the same means that the Heralds severed their ties to the Oathpact. Is it possible, then, that by copying the Honorblades, the Nahel spren inadvertently recreated the not-so-desirable aspect of the Honorblades that connects the Heralds to Braize? If so, it is possible that when Radiants die, their soul(?)/Cognitive shadow/non-material aspect goes to Braize, as the Heralds do, instead of going through the usual afterlife? This would be an extremely serious side-effect for the Nahel bond to have, and it's hard to imagine anyone, least of all the Radiants who were all broken people in some way, stoically accepting more-or-less-eternal torment after their death. As others have theorized, we already have reason to believe that the afterlife is messed up in some way on Roshar, but if the Radiants suddenly found out that they were more or less guaranteed to go to Damnation, that would go a long way toward explaining the Recreance.
  9. My theory is that the spren were in agreement with their bondmates to die and cause the Recreance. Both the Knights and their spren decided that Honor was correct and that they would end up destroying the world if they were allowed to continue to surgebind. Without Honor, Notum and Ishar say there are fewer checks on their power, and we know they actually did destroy their previous planet. They deliberately allowed their Knights to break their Oaths, knowing that it would kill them, and alienate the remaining spren, so that no spren would be willing to seek out a bond for the foreseeable future. In this way, they save all of their fellow spren, friends, family, loved ones, as well as the humans and the Singers. We know that Honor was going mad and dying. He swore that the Knights would destroy the world. Whether that's true or not, he convinced the Knights and their spren that they were too dangerous to exist. 1. The spren are everywhere. It's nearly impossible to hide things from your own spren, and very difficult to hide things from others' spren. Most of them seem able to change size and some can change shape. Honorspren, at least, seem to be constantly curious, investigating anything interesting going on. Only the Knight they're bonded to can see them by default, so they can snoop around quite easily without being seen. An obviously coordinated effort like we see in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance would be impossible to plan without the spren finding out. 2. The spren can read thoughts. Syl can sometimes read Kaladin's thoughts, and definitely knows it on an instinctual level when he's not following his Oaths. Glys seems able to meld with Renarin, and definitely talks to him in his mind. We know that perception is important for whether a Nahel Bond is being kept or not. That it depends on the perception of the person and the spren. If the spren weren't in agreement that the Recreance needed to happen, then the Radiants who were planning on breaking their Oaths should have been losing their powers. 3. Honorspren are willing to let their Knights break Oaths if it's important enough. (WoB truncated for length). Honorspren are are willing to put the cause ahead of their own well-being. It's the nature of protecting. Kaladin is willing to die to save others, or at least put himself in harm's way. I think that this trait is not unique to honorspren, but to many of the Radiant spren. They're willing to die if it means a greater good--such as not destroying the planet. 4. Some spren don't see death the same way as humans do. Pattern is very nonchalant about dying. He fully expects, even encourages, Shallan to kill him, simply to spare her pain. Syl bounces back from being dead and doesn't really even give Kaladin grief over it. Ico doesn't seem particularly upset over his father being a dead-eye. He even is very understanding about why humans break Oaths. Other spren are downright friendly with humans. Even Wyndle, who is quite a fussy little voidbringer, mentions that they don't exactly die, though he is admittedly nervous about it happening to him. 5. The Radiants didn't lose their powers before the Recreance. As I mentioned in 1 (felt like it bore repeating), in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance, the Windrunners had their powers up to the point where they broke their Oaths. They flew to Feverstone Keep, their Blades and Plate were still glowing. 6. The other spren don't seem to know the reason for the Recreance. Ico thinks the reason for the Recreance was that humans couldn't honor Oaths. Notum just thinks Radiants are dangerous. Niether of them seem to care or mention much about the possibility of surgebinders destroying the planet. I think that the bonded spren at the time deliberately did not tell their friends and relatives what they were going to do, in order to enhance the shock factor, as well as the sense of betrayal by the humans. This would discourage just about all the spren from ever seeking a Radiant again, unless they were desperate. The best way to prevent future bonds was to shock and horrify all the other spren so much that the idea would be unthinkable for millennia. 7. The spren didn't leave or choose to have their Oath broken. Notum mentions there are "other ways" than killing the Knight, at least until the 5th Oath is sworn. Bui;ding on 6, if the spren didn't agree with their Knights, shouldn't some of them have tried to break their bond? It doesn't appear as if any of them did. 8. The skybreakers and highspren didn't break their Oaths. Highspren and Skybreakers hold the Law and Oaths as the highest possible Ideal, so to speak. The highspren would never have agreed to breaking the Oaths, and the Radiants likely wouldn't either, or weren't willing to kill their spren without their consent. They must have agreed to some degree though, because they've never told the other spren why all the other Orders foreswore their Oaths. 9. The spren didn't break their Oaths on their own (controversial). I believe that the spren can break the bond to their humans on their own. That they didn't also implies that they were complicit in the Recreance. This is a point of contention between me and some of the proponents of this theory, though, so I've marked it controversal. So, thoughts, opinions? Oh and thanks to @Calderis . Like Wit mentions, timeliness is important, and Calderis thought of this before me, although I came to it independently I posted this with his blessings.
  10. Here me out. I was thinking on the reason for Recreance. In the book, the cause was said to be because the radiants found out that the original voidbringer were humans. This seemed strange to me, seeing that a nahel bond is an extremely intimate bond, that they would just kill off their spren for this fact. Also, it's strange to me that they seemed to be horrified about the epiphany, yet do nothing to remedy the situation, the Parshendi remained as mindless slaves, treated like chulls. You would think that they may start feeling pity for the natives. This is where the theory comes in. The reason for Recreance is not related to the reality of Parshendi, but it more of an insurance for the future. Just as Leras from mistborn made plans for after his death, honor may have made his own plan for after his death. It is known from Dalinar's vision that Honor was still alive during the Recreance, and in Oathbringer, we learn that Honor was starting to lose his mind around Recreance. Honor and the radiants of the time made a plan, an investment for the future, the Recreance may be an insurance for the future that both the humans and the bonded sprens agreed about. So where is this Going? In the world today we have maybe a couple of thousands of these heavily invested entity right under odiums nose, (preservation's mist anyone) which may turn out to become the turning point that tips the scale. We know that Odium is not all-knowing just from the fact that he thought Shallan was an Elsecaller, a lie that she told. So it is quite possible that Odium may be fooled into thinking that the radiants abandoned their oath because of the truth. All just a theory that was orbiting in my mind. I wanna know what you guys think.
  11. This may have been discussed already in another thread, but did anyone else think Jasnah's conversation with Hoid at the end of WoR was really strange, especially considering that it was barely mentioned during OB? When Jasnah Elsecalls into Shinovar, she seems pretty untroubled (or as Brandon would say, "nonplussed") to find Hoid sitting there, waiting for her. This whole conversation is very unusual, considering that everyone else in Roshar for the most part treats Wit like a foolish court jester - no one is aware of the fact that he is intelligent and important to the larger cosmere. Jasnah, however, instead of being surprised to find him there, immediately begins interrogating him, assuming that he knows important things. A couple questions arise from this. For one thing, when does Jasnah realize that Hoid/Wit is more than just a simple court jester? Does this happen before she enters Shadesmar, or does she somehow learn more about Hoid during her journey? In addition, why does she still call him Wit? I suppose it's possible that she learned more about him in Shadesmar without discovering his real name (or, well, his main alias), but this somehow seems unlikely. She apparently knows, when she exits Shadesmar, that Hoid is important and that he knows things, and yet she still doesn't know his name. We know from OB that Hoid tells Jasnah about the reason for the Recreance (or at least, he tells her a part of the story). Is this the information that Jasnah was specifically looking for from Hoid, or does she just know that he is full of cosmere knowledge in general? Her pointed question - "Tell me what you know" makes it seem like there is something in particular that she is looking for from him. In OB, Jasnah only refers to her conversation with Hoid once when speaking with Ivory, and besides that she doesn't say anything about him, or mention him to any other character. Even here, she refers to him by Wit, which suggests that she really doesn't know his name is Hoid (or Cephandrius, or something else). However, she doesn't talk about Wit at any other point in the book, or tell another character that she realizes he is important. This makes me wonder if Jasnah is possibly working with him (or else she is just her normal enigmatic self and is paranoid about telling people anything). So here is what we know: 1. Jasnah seems to realize Hoid is important when she exits Shadesmar. It is unclear if she knew this before she entered Shadesmar. 2. When she exits Shademsar, it is implied that Hoid has been looking for her, and that she has possibly been trying to evade him ("How did you find me?"). 3. There seems to be specific information she wants to get from Hoid ("Tell me what you know."). It is unclear if she realizes that he knows about the Recreance, or if he proffers that information freely. 3. Jasnah doesn't mention Hoid to anyone throughout all of OB, and her strange encounter with him in Shinovar is not brought up. I was expecting the Jasnah-Hoid meeting to be more important in OB, because it comprised the final pages of WoR. But the fact that their meeting is barely mentioned at all is even more telling, and prolongs the mystery of their interaction. What do you guys think about the situation with Jasnah and Hoid/Wit? What does she know about him, how could she have gained that information while in Shadesmar, and how will she work with him/deal with him in future books?
  12. Hi Sharders! Long time lurker here but this is my very first post. Forgive me if this has been discussed but I don't think I have seen it yet though with all the ideas thrown around on this forum it is hard to keep track sometimes. I am of the opinion that the Fused are in fact souls of dead Knight Radiants who have been broken or corrupted by Odium. As far as I have been able to tell no where in Oathbringer does it actually say that they are Parshendi (it does say "they" and "their" though). From memory it says they are ancient soul of leaders and kings who are valiant warriors from long ago. From what we know of the cultures on Roshar, that sounds a lot more like KR than parsh. I believe that this would explain their access to Voidbinding too, as well as their deteriorating minds. As quite a few people have speculated, due to the Nahel bond replicating Honorblades, perhaps an unexpected side effect was that they get sent to Braise, like the heralds, after death. With the link to their spren broken at death this would leave their cognitive shadow stuck on Braise without hope of resurrection, giving Odium an unlimited amount of time to break their minds. Also with the Nahel bond broken, Odium would be able to easily fill the cracks in their sDNA with the requirements for Voidbinding. I think the KR learned this from Honor when he was losing his mind which was the final straw that caused the Recreance. Lastly, to back to back up this theory is the fact that all of the Fused eyes are permanently Red, indicating corruption by another shard. My other theory, along the same lines is that the Fused are the souls of the original Voidbringers, the first humans to settle on Roshar. This would be a better explanation for Voidbinding as they would have arrived on Roshar with it after destroying Ashyn. I do enjoy reading theories that get shot down as much as the plausible ones so if I am completely off the mark please let me know!
  13. So just a crazy theory here. From Oathbringer we know that the Parsh were attempting to get to Feverstone Keep right before the Recreance, which is where many of the KR left their blade and plate. I think that the Parsh could have been trying to reach Honor's perpendicularity to complete the shattering that had started earlier and then they succeded. When honor was shattered that killed any spen who were currently in a nahel bond. The KR were then left with dead spren screaming at them and immediately left their blade and plate behind. The felt they had broken some sort of oath because they allowed Honor's shattering. But they did not break their nahel bond oaths. With regard to the skybreakers, it has been said that they maintained their oaths. I think it is possible however that the skybrakers who were KR at the time still abandoned their blades and plate but continued their culture and attempted to recruit new spren/acolytes with the guidance of Nale. Finally with regard to the spen who believe that the KR had broken their oaths, they would have only seen spren deaths from broken oaths prior so it is natural to assume that the spren that died were due to broken oaths. Also it is unlikely that any higher spren was present as the stay mainly in shadesmar unless part of a bond, in which case they would have died. I think this may be true as the "secret" behind the recreance seems rather underwhelming and already know among the KR and the shattering o Honor has already been linked to the recreance. So I think it is possible that instead of breaking the nahel bonds, those bonds were instead broken by Honor's shattering.
  14. Something that really hit me, as a law student in New Zealand, was the conflict about who are the legitimate rulers of the land. The Parshendi are native to Roshar. By their invitation, humans were allowed to arrive, being given Shinovar. Humans, ever seeking to expand, were not happy with the small boundaries they were given, and took more and more. Eventually, the Parshendi were being properly invaded, and had to fight back. Now the invaders are considered the de facto rulers, and the natives are a minority. For those unfamiliar, New Zealand was an English colony before it became an independent country. But before that, the Maori had settled. Through a series of events that involved the injustices that colonialism has become known for, Maori now represent a minority of the population, both statistically and politically. The country is now in a position where it can question whether or not its own rule is justified or not. And it is not a question with easy answers. We study the justification for following the Common Law system of Western countries, instead of the Tikanga Maori law system. We study how the Treaty created for the English to be granted title is unfair and unrecognised throughout its history. Without getting too far into the politics of New Zealand, I thought it was analogous to the issue of Parshendi or Human land title. This is why I felt that the conflict was a lot more powerful than I've seen other people reporting it to be, even though it is predictable. The Radiants are bound by their Oaths, in ways that require them to feel justified in what they do. But when only the descendents of perpetrators remain to bear the guilt, and the victims are still calling for justice, what really is the right thing to do? Cooperation, though the ideal solution, is extremely hard to achieve throughout a history of injustice. New Zealand attempts to address this with affirmative action, but then there are those who say there is too little or too much reverse discrimination, and that racial bias still is a factor. I'm aware other analogies exist, especially the Native Americans, but this was what I was most familiar with. One last thing, I've always felt that Nale and the Skybreakers seemed a bit silly, following the law as it is written instead of by what it means (what could be called a strict textual, positivist approach). A little of that was cleared up with Edgedancer and Oathbringer (though Nale does say that he only asked for permission to kill Surgebinders after confronting lift, meaning he was illegally executing people before that), I still feel that they need a more developed sense of jurisprudence (philosophy of law) to give meaning to anything they do. The law exists for a reason, namely to bring order to the chaos of human interaction. This was mentioned many times by various Skybreakers. Despite that, by joining the Parshendi, they encourage an escalation of chaos and disorder. I'll make a separate post about this later, after I've had more time to think on it. Sorry for the wall of text
  15. So, going through Oathbringer a 2nd time, I have noticed some things that lead to a new direction of speculation for the possible cause of the Recreance, and I think THIS MIGHT BE IT! There is another great thread on the cause of the recreance here, but I think that this is a different enough theory that it should have it's own thread. From the very edifying, yet not quite satisfying talk between Dalinar and the Stormfather in Chapter 38, Broken People (emphasis is mine): My feeling here is that the Stormfather is LYING. Specifically the part in BOLD RED from the above passage. From Vorinism we know that the highest calling is the Martial calling, and the reason this is the highest calling is because Soldiers will be needed to take back the Tranquiline halls in the afterlife. This always struck me as kind of a dumb basis for a religion, but whatever, I thought it also kind of a neat foundational precept for a warmongering people, which the Alethi most certainly are. Now the big reveal from OB was that Humans were the ones that came to Roshar and brought their God Odium with them. What if, and this is the big Duhn Duhn Duhn moment, the spren that are Voidbringers, the ones who come and Fuse with the Singers are really good Vorin super soldiers from the afterlife that have been corrupted by Odium. Vorinism seems like a great religion to train and shape a people that, unfortunately due to the bad luck of the draw on which shard got their planet, they happened to get tied great cosmic wheel of Rebirth to fight perpetually. Maybe, when people give themselves to Odium (like Amaram, like Moash) they create a bond that is similar to the Nahel bond, and after their body perishes their cognitive and spiritual beings can be recycled in the great Odium war machine. What if Vorinism is the first native religion of the people that brought Odium to roshar? Could this be the ancient ancestors of the Alethi? So Honor and Cultivation created a set of Deathless champions, likewise bound the cosmic wheel of perpetual death and rebirth to keep the Ghostly forces of Odium at bay. But, the native spren of Roshar saw the heralds (and probably, overtime the ideals symbolized by the heralds became Sapient spren) and these spren were able to bond with the humans. So here is the kicker, what if the Nahel bond makes one more susceptible to be corrupted by Odium? What if also, when a Radiant dies, due to the Nahel bond, Odium can claim them too for his legion of Deathless warriors? What if the true reason for the Recreance is really that the Voidbringers are composed largely of Fallen Radiants, and that radiants that realize that if they keep fighting they can end up as Odium's newest recruits? There is that part in the Epilogue where Hoid casually mentions how he had danced with one of the Fused before, would he likely have danced with one of the Ancient listeners? Another supporting detail is that some of the Fused are more awake than others ("EACH REBIRTH FURTHER INJURES THEIR MIND."). Why would this be if it was just the first and foremost leaders of the Singers that were the voidbringers? More likely, those that proved their skill in battle but fell, Odium claimed, and got fresh recruits each Desolation. He might have even claimed them from both sides (but I think it more likely that he is just able to claim HIS people). Love to hear what y'all think.
  16. I'd like to bring your attention to Maleshi, now mentione twice - in WoR and OB (emphasis mine): Melishi – the sole Bondsmith of the last Radiant generation during a False Desolation. He imprisoned Ba-Ado-Mishram, the highprincess of the Unmade and commander of Odium’s forces (according to Mythica), who was providing voidlight for the parsh in the absence of Odium - already imprisoned by Honor at that time I assume. These parsh are ‘the devils’ the KR were said to be fighting at Feverstone Keep in Dalinar’s vision of Recreance. Not only did Melishi and the coalition of Radiants manage to capture Ba-Ado-Mishram, but also caused the fighting parsh to lose their ability to form bonds with spren. Around this time the Last Legion escaped all and hid until their descendants were discovered by Kholin expedition. Somehow they managed to avoid losing the ability to bond spren, so the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram is not the main reason other parsh were stuck in dullform. So, matching False Desolation, cognitive destruction of most parsh and Recreanse, we get Windrunners and Stonewards abandoning their Shards for people to easily find and take. If the reasoning behind it was what was done to the parsh, surely this wasn’t the best way to do it. They deliberately left both Plates (that could have been dismissed for all we know and disappear as a footnote in history) and Blades out in the open for anyone to take at Feverstone Keep. The only threat I can think of that is worth fighting with Shards are Odium’s forces, so I suggest the Radiants were inclined to think they did not permanently defeat their enemy. In the light of all that, I do not believe the revelation humanity isn’t originally from Roshar played as big a role as the Stormfather claimed. They disbanded for whatever actual reason, yet left invaluable weapons to humanity for future war. It is interesting to point out previous books claimed Urithiru was abandoned before Recreanse, yet there doesn’t seem to be much of a time difference between the two. How whatever was happening with the Sibling, Urithiru becoming unsafe and uninhabitable (for more see Urithiru the corrupted city), along with the tensions between Windrunners and Skybreakers, the only ones who kept their Oaths to present day, is related to it all remains to be seen.
  17. Ok... Just had a crazy thought and I haven't seen any speculation on it. Please feel free to shoot me down. I seem to recall (sorry, can't provide a quote) an Eshonai interlude that suggested the Listeners intentionally severed themselves for their Gods. The Recreance, we have been told, Humans intentionally severed their bonds with their Spren. Causing a great deal of damage and essentially killing their associated Spren in the process. I am getting to a point, maybe. With the advent of the Everstorm and subsequent healing of the Parshmens Spirit Webs, I began thinking. Usually a bad idea for me. However... What if the Recreance and the Listeners Severing were the SAME Event. Something drastically nasty came to light (Spren bonds and Listener Forms both.) And it was decided mutually by both sides that is was necessary? The Skybreakers would have abstained for, insert clever idea here, reasons and a group of Listeners, **idea reasons** possibly abstained as well. Crackpot idea built of Crem and Wattle, but I thought I'd throw it up. Dissect accordingly.
  18. Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return. - WOR Chapter 84 epigraph (decoded) Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence -- WOR Chapter 38 epigraph These epigraphs strongly imply that the Recreance was precipitated by the KR discovering some terrible fact. It doesn't seem to have been tied to any corruption that may have crept in to the Orders (the taxes for travel through Urithiru, etc.) Now, here's something anomalous. The Desolations devastated Roshar, killing something like 90 percent of the human population and knocking technology back to the stone age, at least sometimes. Yet when Honor was Splintered (after the Recreance -- he remembers it in the visions) there seems to have been no such cataclysm. Aharietiam is still seen as "the Last Desolation", which it wouldn't be if another apocalyptic event had occurred since the Recreance. Similarly, Odium Splintered Devotion and Dominion on Sel. But humanity on that planet survived; he didn't destroy the planet, depopulate it, or warp it into some kind of a hellscape. So why the devastating, lethal Desolations on Roshar before the Recreance? Because humans were fighting on Honor's side. Odium doesn't really care about killing humans, except incidentally to getting at the Shards; nothing much below the power-level of a Herald registers on his "radar screen" Therefore, my proposal for the Secret That Broke The KR is: Honor's been feeding us into a meat grinder for thousands of years to protect Cultivation and a couple of alien gods we'll never see. If we let Odium win, nothing bad really happens to humanity. Honor betrayed us. Our spren have been in on it, all along - they're pieces of Honor. So let him die.
  19. From Dalinar's vision of the recreance, we learn there were a lot more shardblades in Roshar during the shadow days than in the time of the novels. Dalinar seemed to notice more shardblades being dropped in front of Feverstone Keep than there were in the whole world in his time. What happened to all of these shardblades? When I read this chapter in TWoKs I didn't think much about it. I figured the blades were destroyed from misuse or something. However, WoR gives us a lot more information on shardblades. They are the remains of spren. Spren bodies are not going to be worn away from misuse. I don't know that anything in the physically can hurt a spren. The only things that could are words. In this case, the pen is truly mightier than the sword. A sword can't cut a spren, but a pen can define and trap it. Still, spren bodies are not going to rust or decay. They can be caught in gemstones but that will not destroy them. As for shardblades, they can't be cut or damaged by anything. I know this sounds like my other point, but my other point was more of a focus on the spren themselves. Now, I am just referring to the blades. They remain sharp no matter what they cut. The only thing that can shape them are the blades themselves. So we can be sure no one can just gather up shardblades and melt them down or bash them into a pile of scrap metal. Even in battles with other shardbearers the shardplate is the only thing that can be damaged. The blades never are damaged. So it appears shardblades are indestructible. Then where are all the shardblades the Radiences discarded? Did Nale and his Skybreakers or perhaps the Shin gather them up and store them somewhere? Did the blades that didn't have a mind to connect to finally fade away? So what happened to all of these shardblades? What do you think?
  20. Okay, so I've been reading the free chapters of Oathbringer on Tor, and I got to Dalinar's conversation with the Stormfather about challenging Odium to a duel, and I wondered "what would the stakes have to be for Odium to accept?" I knew that Odium would only accept such a challenge if winning would put him significantly further ahead than he already was, and he was basically winning the war at that point. So what could put him so far ahead that it would be worth it? What could possibly stand in his way that he could remove more effectively by drinking a duel than his other methods? Radiants. They could pose a serious problem to his plans, and fighting then could be really annoying, even for a Shard. What if Odium could ensure that, if he won, all of the Radiants would go away? Say, break their oaths or something... So what if that's already happened before? What if that was the cause for the Day of Recreance? This actually makes sense, if you think about it. We know that one Order didn't break it's oaths, so maybe they had all agreed to break their oaths if their contestant lost, and one order broke that promise instead of those previously made to their Spren, or didn't agree at all. I'm not sure which order this would be, but what do you think? Could this be it?
  21. I've seen dozens of topics on 'when' the Recreance happened, 'what' the secret is that broke the KR, 'why' they abandoned their shards en masse, and 'who' may or may not have taken part in the Recreance. This is not one of those topics. Right now I want to discuss 'how'. @The One Who Connects recently reminded me that abandoning oaths leads to a slower spren death/regression, while breaking oaths can straight up kill them. It seems that the Recreance happened rather suddenly, and we're told that multiple orders took part all at once. That, to me, screams of purposefully breaking an oath. It's possible that each order chose a different ideal to break, but more likely... which oath could all the Radiants break at once? Only the first. Life before death. Obviously the Radiants betrayed this oath when they killed so many sprenblades, but how do you break this oath to bring that about in the first place? I don't think this is a likely candidate for the broken oath. It felt more like the Radiants had a collective (probably very convincing) reason to abandon their posts, and I doubt they just did it in order to give up and die... at least they wouldn't have chosen to do that all at once. Strength before weakness. Similarly, if their weaknesses caused them to perform the Recreance, I feel like it would be more gradual, with only a few Radiants falling at a time. Again, I feel that - if they had a good reason for the Recreance - seeing it through and betraying their spren would take massive strength. Journey before destination. This seems most likely to me. If the Radiants discovered a 'secret' that broke them, it could be any one of the things that numerous other threads have discussed (again, don't derail my thread!) Regardless, I think it's safe to say that if the Radiants decided the Recreance was the only way to save humanity (or really any other very convincing end goal), then they would heroically go through with it despite the cost. While noble in theory, that attitude is wilfully putting destination before journey. I think making that choice is what allowed the Radiants to leave their shards as they did. I obviously have a lot of assumptions here Anyone have another idea on 'how' the Radiants were able to perform the Recreance as they did?
  22. I think the KR abandoned their oaths in the Recreance because they discovered that Odium had the ability to control their Radiantspren. I believe Voidbringing is Odium’s form of Hemalurgy. I speculate Odium used Voidbringing to inject voidspren into Radiantspren. I believe this is the Diagram’s “secret” that destroyed the KR. Here’s my logic: 1. I think Hemalurgy is the ability to transfer innate Investiture from one entity to another. @Cowmanthethirdreminds me that, technically, “Hemalurgy” is Ruin’s magic system, since it relies on blood to effectuate the transfer. But I think the power to transfer innate Investiture (by whatever name) is available to every Shard, subject to their Mandate (intent). Even non-Awakening Breath transfers IMO are Endowment’s form of Hemalurgy, since Breaths are innate Investiture. This WoB states Spiritual Realm powers are "not themselves of [any] Shard. They are simply tools." That includes the power to transfer innate Investiture (by whatever name). 2. I think Voidbringing (not Voidbinding) is Odium’s “possession” magic. He gains control of a soul by changing the soul’s innate Investiture. I believe Roshar’s innate Investiture always manifests as spren. Rosharans call spren a “soul.” The Rider of Storms is the “soul” of the storm. When Fleet dies, his “soul” rises into the storm “forever to race the wind” – a windspren. A Tai-na’s spren is its “soul.” 3. Voidspren IMO are Odium’s Hemalurgical “spikes” – Odium Investiture (voidspren) injected into a soul’s innate Investiture (the host spren). I think this WoB confirms that (emphasis added): Listeners bond with pre-Shattering spren. I think the only listener forms that rely on “hole-less” spren are the Lost Legion’s five basic forms. IMO, stormspren are a pre-Shattering spren Odium controls through a voidspren. In Dalinar’s Purelake vision, a voidspren-injected “host” spren becomes a Thunderclast. 4. In this post, I theorize Radiantspren combine two pre-Shattering spren. Those are the spren that give Radiantspren their ability to Focus two powers. I believe it’s possible for Odium to control the Radiantspren by injecting a voidspren into one or both of those spren or the Radiantspren itself, perhaps through the “hole” created by the combination. 5. Odium might have corrupted earlier KR generations this way. The Surgebinder War that preceded Nohadon’s Desolation may be an example. Vorin contempt for the KR may stem from their Odium-corrupted behavior as much as the Recreance. I think the Recreance KR discovered their exposure to Odium. The KR had to abandon their oaths in unison. 6. I think Odium has gained control of other spren. I’ve long believed the Heralds are spren – each a Horatius guarding the bridge between Braize’s and Roshar’s subastrals. Here’s Kalak’s description of Jezrien in the SLA Prelude: Some posters believe Odium corrupted Ishar as well as Jezrien. IMO, Odium now controls the Stormfather. 7. I think Voidbringing is reversible. My Odium mantra: Hate corrodes and divides. It spoils relationships. I think Odium’s Mandate (intent) severs Connections. His Investiture cannot form its own bonds and instead “unmakes” souls. IMO, voidspren are like electrodes inserted into the host spren. They can be removed without damage to the host. The Nahel bond, in contrast, mingles souls. That’s my speculation, anyway. Enjoy yourselves!
  23. Understanding Epigraphs about the Recreance Hello readers, this is the first topic I created (besides an introduction) and it focuses on my favorite mystery from SA: What caused the Recreance? I've scoured the book for clues and read many interesting theories on the 17th shard. After all my searching the best description of the Recreance we have in my opinion is still the three epigraphs from the in-world Words of Radiance that deal with this event. However, these epigraphs are hard to understand because we only have small excerpts so it is not always clear who or what is being referred to. I did my best to fill in this information so it is more clear and could hopefully shed more light on the mystery. Every word I added to the epigraphs is in parentheses. Of course I do not know what every noun is referring to so in some instances I left several options. So my question for you is did I make any mistakes identifying what group of people different words refer to, or did I leap to any unjustified conclusions? Is there further information that could be added to make the epigraph more clear? How would you rewrite the epigraphs in your own words? Thank you for any feedback! Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged (Who are they fighting? Voidbringers, Parshendi, other humans?), arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants' adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest. (What caused the Recreance: KR had potential to form bridge for next desolation, spren betrayed KR, Honor betrayed KR, dead KR go to Braize?)—Chapter 38, page 6 That they (Windrunners) responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these (Windrunners) were primary among those (Windrunners and Stonewards) who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named. —Chapter 38, page 6 This act of great villainy (Whatever caused the Recreance) went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time (again who is fighting?), many (KR) attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they (KR) withdrew, about two thousand (voidbringers, Parshendi, humans?) made assault upon them (KR), destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one (order of KR) said they would not abandon their arms (shards/spren) and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine (KR orders).—Chapter 38, page 20
  24. After clarifying in another thread that Honor was (probably?) killed after the Recreance, I got to wondering exactly how long. Was that the final turning point so Odium could whittle Honor down and eventually killed him? Or maybe it was something else. I am working with the knowledge of how well discussed this has been so far without any definitive answer that I feel is satisfactory. Maybe the Radiants abandoned their Oaths because Honor told them to, or the spren knew Honor wanted them to and got the Knights to abandon them. The reason for Honor telling them to is that he was about to die. Honor wanted the spren and Knights to avoid some of the fallout of him being destroyed, so he saved them by detaching them from himself. With the Oaths abandoned, the spren were stuck partially in the physical realm, which may have protected them somewhat, at the cost of their sanity. The Knights would be less directly connected to Honor, and not be hurt as bad when he died. I'm just spouting out ideas here, but I think there may be some merit to the base premise of 'Honor died right after the Recreance.' It would certainly make understanding why the Recreance happened a lot easier and more complicated at the same time. I am making the assumption here that there would be some ripple effect in the cognitive realm when a Shard is killed, which I don't think is unreasonable. There were probably some physical disasters too. Earthquakes, and the like. I don't know how Honor being killed would affect Radiants, but there would have to be some repercussions, so maybe they abandoned their Oaths to avoid those. It makes me wonder what happened to the order that didn't abandon their Oaths... maybe their honor was corrupted entirely? Again, just spouting ideas. Do you guys have any other ideas about potential reasoning for the Recreance in context of the premise that Honor was killed (relatively) directly after?
  25. Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. The Knights Radiant adhere to the philosophy that the ends do not and never will justify the means. Unlike Taravangian who is committing atrocities in the name of "The Greater Good" the KnightsRadiant are forced to work the hard way by living by ideals and honorably. But the Radiants en masse (except perhaps the Skybreakers) broke their oaths on the same day. This was after the Desolations had ended and resulted in the Nahel bonds failing and the Spren abandoning mankind. We know that a war was going on right before the Recreance and that the Radiants were fighting in the war and after they abandoned their blades and plates and left from what we see in Dalinar's vision in WoK (At least the Windrunners and theStonewards). What is something that would break the oaths of all of the knights at once, something that the Knights could be convinced was worth doing that would be dishonorable, that was for the Greater Good, that took the easy path. An unethical action that all the knights would do. I see two possibilities and they're related. There are two events that have happened in the past that require great power and would seem to break the Knights first ideal. One is the shattering of the shattered plains. The other is the enslaving of the Listeners. I don't think it is a conincidence that the last free listeners live on the edge of the kingdom that was shattered by someone. I think Natanatan may have been figthing a war with the Listeners before the Listeners of Narak fled and abandoned civilzation, culture, and the forms and retreated into the wilderness in Dull Form. I think the Radiants were called in to stop the war of join the war and were somehow convinced that the Listeners would bring on another Desolation. I think the Radiants may have been convinced to make a preemptive strike to avoid the Desolation that may or may not be coming and destroy the Listeners entirely before they could summon a Desolation. So they shattered the Area around Stormseat by working together somehow and enslaved all the other Listeners. This stopped the threat, but was such an abhorent, deplorable, dishonorable act, such an egregious breach of the first Ideal that the Radiants agreed to do that it broke all their oaths beyond repair. I haven't put all the pieces together and I don't think we know enough. This is just a hypothesis. I think what broke the oaths was the result of either the breaking of Stormseat to stop the Listeners, or the enslavement of the Parshmen.