theory Ishar's Lab - Siah Aimians Were Honorspren [Discuss]

[+Child of Hodor]

TL;DR: Siah Aimians were Honorspren that came over to the physical realm like Ishar is trying to do. That's why they are all blue and that's why Aimia was where all the ancient Fabrial's, spren turned into objects came from in the Silver Kingdoms. Axies can change his skin at will is the physical realm, this is a remnant of Spren like Syl changing her appearance in the physical realm. Axies is documenting every possible spren in the physical realm, building a family tree of sorts. Axies has been alive for a loooooong time, spren live theoretically forever. 

Ishar is trying to convert or "translate" Spren cognitive realm humanoid bodies into physical realm bodies. It's not going well. The Radiant spren type that lasts the longest in the physical realm are the Honorspren. Ishar is insane, but he is not ignorant. He thinks this can be done and he's had some success with Honorspren. 

I was chatting with @HoidvsVoid about the origins of all the different varieties of humanoids. Some were native like the Singers others came from Ashyn others came from other systems in the cosmere (Iriali) and others are a result of interbreeding between these humanoids. 

The Siah Aimians (the blue guys like Axies) we don't know a lot about. The Dysian Aimians (Seepless) came from somewhere else, but we don't know much about the blue ones. The two types are both called Aimians because they lived in the same place, but they have little in common. Then I saw a picture of Axies.  It's fan art, but it jogged something in me. In my head Axies was a darker blue, but that's just in my head. This color is what I would call Syl Blue or Honorspren blue.  https://coppermind.net/wiki/Siah_Aimian

Axies fan art vs official Dragonsteel Syl artwork hidden for size:

Spoiler

 

 

What do we know about Aimian's? Well they were masters of ancient Fabrials, which we learned in RoW are spren transformed into physical realm objects. They were fabrial central of the Silver Kingdoms, in other words they were the "Spren turn into something in the physical realm other than a blade" central.  

What else do we know about Siah Aimians? Axies can change his skin at will to jot things down. We see Syl constantly change her physical realm appearance in the books. What if this is a remnant of that ability? They can't fully change shape, but they can change things within that shape at will. 

Axies himself has dedicated his life to seeing every spren in the physical realm and documenting them. Building a family tree kind of. Regardless, this reinforces the Siah Aimian - Spren connection. 

Axies has been alive a looooooooong time. Spren don't have a natural lifespan, although we do know they can be killed under certain circumstances. 

Axies wasn't wearing any clothes in his interlude. He comments that this happens a lot, he gets robbed or otherwise loses all his possessions. It's funny, but it could also link back to how spren don't have clothes in the cognitive or physical realm they just change part of their body to look like clothes. Wearing clothes doesn't come naturally to a spren, you'd think Axies would adjust after thousands of years, but maybe it feels unnatural to him.

EDIT: Credit to @some punny username on Discord. Axies shadow casts the wrong way which we know is a thing that being's close to Shadesmar do. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Child of Hodor

[Malim he/him]

I think this is an interesting theory.  It would also fit in with what Syl said about Honorspren hunting other spren in the Cognitive Realm.  Axies could be doing the same thing, but more of the Rosharan equivalent of a photo safari, rather than a hunt.

To take this farther, it makes me wonder about the Natans.  They are human, but they have blue skin.  Could they also have Spren blood at some point in their past?  Maybe the Siah Aimians were the Spren that became physical, and the Natans are the result of pairings between these physical Spren and humans.  Do we know if their shadows point the wrong way as well?

[HoidvsVoid]

This would definitely explain a lot and might be a way for Brandon to pull off the Kaladin and Syl ship.

Sound theory.

Now just need to figure out how the Curse of Kind and Fortune play into this. Maybe it's a side effect of the transfer.

[Honorless he/him]

Spren can also shape their essence into clothing, that's what Syl's dresses are, and Axies can shift his skin to form tattooes.

 

I saw the similarities too, especially because the Honorspren corpses were initially mistaken for Natan corpses, so I thought that was a Siah Aimian corpse at first. Afterwards, I kinda dismissed the Siah Aimians = Honorspren idea offhand. Seeing this theory lay it out is making me reconsider...

Edited May 28, 2021 by Honorless
word repetitions and redundancies

[Knight of Iron she/they]

Rust and Ruin its scary how much sense this makes.

Now, realmatics-wise, if Ishar can find a way or can successfully recreate what was done with Siah Aimians, according to this theory, it opens the door to all kinds of physical manifestations of spren (Cryptics were tried, clearly).

But why stop at spren? If this is something that could be done feasibly end-of-cosmere, we might end up with a whole host of new sorta-human races! Would seons work?

And would Cognitive Shadows? Assuming this theory is correct and such a thing has been done before, I don't see it too far-fetched to then assume that Cognitive Shadows (which can even enter Nahel bonds with humans, funnily enough) could re-enter the Physical Realm.

And, SH/BoM:

Spoiler

Of course me being be I jump to: Kelsier???????

 

[+Child of Hodor]

11 hours ago, Malim said:

I think this is an interesting theory.  It would also fit in with what Syl said about Honorspren hunting other spren in the Cognitive Realm.  Axies could be doing the same thing, but more of the Rosharan equivalent of a photo safari, rather than a hunt.

To take this farther, it makes me wonder about the Natans.  They are human, but they have blue skin.  Could they also have Spren blood at some point in their past?  Maybe the Siah Aimians were the Spren that became physical, and the Natans are the result of pairings between these physical Spren and humans.  Do we know if their shadows point the wrong way as well?

Yeah, I think they are likely descendants of human - Siah offspring.  I don't think we know much about them other than Sigzil couldn't resist touching strangers blue-patterned skin and got arrested then Hoid had to bail him out  

[LewsTherinTelescope]

10 hours ago, Knight of Iron said:

And would Cognitive Shadows? Assuming this theory is correct and such a thing has been done before, I don't see it too far-fetched to then assume that Cognitive Shadows (which can even enter Nahel bonds with humans, funnily enough) could re-enter the Physical Realm.

Personally, I suspect this is why Ishar's doing what he's doing. Trying to work out how transforming a Cognitive entity successfully into a Physical one works, so he can bring himself over. As for why, I'm not sure. Maybe he's in the back of his head sort of aware he's crazy or might be, and wants to avoid this. Maybe his crazy plans extend to Ascension. Maybe he wants to disconnect from the Oathpact fully. Few possible options. 

[Bejarden he/him]

Yeah I have seen this propose before

13 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

  10 hours ago, Knight of Iron said:

And would Cognitive Shadows? Assuming this theory is correct and such a thing has been done before, I don't see it too far-fetched to then assume that Cognitive Shadows (which can even enter Nahel bonds with humans, funnily enough) could re-enter the Physical Realm.

Kelsier 

is that the same thing 

I know it’s different with spikes but it does the same thing

[mathiau he/him]

On 24/02/2021 at 2:53 PM, Knight of Iron said:

Rust and Ruin its scary how much sense this makes.

Now, realmatics-wise, if Ishar can find a way or can successfully recreate what was done with Siah Aimians, according to this theory, it opens the door to all kinds of physical manifestations of spren (Cryptics were tried, clearly).

But why stop at spren? If this is something that could be done feasibly end-of-cosmere, we might end up with a whole host of new sorta-human races! Would seons work?

And would Cognitive Shadows? Assuming this theory is correct and such a thing has been done before, I don't see it too far-fetched to then assume that Cognitive Shadows (which can even enter Nahel bonds with humans, funnily enough) could re-enter the Physical Realm.

And, SH/BoM:

  Reveal hidden contents

Of course me being be I jump to: Kelsier???????

 

Spoiler

Didn't Brandon said what Ishar was doing could help Thaidakar with his problem?

On 24/02/2021 at 7:19 AM, HoidvsVoid said:

This would definitely explain a lot and might be a way for Brandon to pull off the Kaladin and Syl ship.

Sound theory.

Now just need to figure out how the Curse of Kind and Fortune play into this. Maybe it's a side effect of the transfer.

I'm not sure how I like the Syladin ship, didn't Kal say he saw her as an annoying little sister?

On 25/02/2021 at 1:13 AM, Bejardin1250 said:

Yeah I have seen this propose before

Kelsier 

is that the same thing 

I know it’s different with spikes but it does the same thing

Kelsier is more likely the same thing as a Fused than the same as what Ishar is doing

[Rushu42 she/her]

My main issue with this theory is about where Dysian Aimians (Sleepless) fit in. We know that they're not native to Roshar, and I'd been assuming that the Siah Aimians were similar. But Honorspren are native to Roshar, so in your theory the two types of Aimians would have to have completely different origins. Does this theory propose that it's just a coincidence that they have the same name and home?

Edited March 2, 2021 by Rushu42
Typo

[LewsTherinTelescope]

49 minutes ago, Rushu42 said:

in your theory the two types of Aimians would have to have completely different origins. Does this theory propose that it's just a coincidence that they have the same name and home?

That seems pretty reasonable with what we know.

Quote

Ecuadorable

I asked for a clue about Rysn or Axies, and I got this!

Brandon Sanderson

Axies is one of two races from Aimia, but they are not related.

Footnote: This refers to Dysian and Siah Aimians
Shadows of Self Boston signing (Oct. 14, 2015)

 

Quote

IneptProfessional

Since you mention languages on Roshar, are there any languages that are completely unrelated to any other on the planet?

Brandon Sanderson

Our basic language families are:

...

Aimian: These two are lumped together, but are very different. Probably what you were looking for.

That isn't counting spren languages, of course. I might have missed something. Typing on my phone without my wiki handy.

General Reddit 2016 (Nov. 29, 2016)

Honestly, might've just settled there together because there's not a lot of them (we know there's dozens of each, but that's it), and they wanted to hang out with other immortals because they were tired of everyone they knew dying on them, lol.

[teknopathetic he/him]

It would be interesting if that were actually a Spren fairytale about someone making it to the physical realm for a while and having children.

[CTA]

This theory is fascinating. What questions could we ask Brandon about this that wouldn't get RAFO'd?

Some ideas:

• Are Siah Aimians honorspren that have been pulled into the physical realm?
  • Pros: Very straightforward answer
  • Cons: Could get RAFO'd (related to Ishar's work, which is a plot point); could be too specific, allow Brandon to say "no" even if we're almost correct
• What did diplomatic relations between pre-scouring Aimia and different spren societies look like? Did such relations exist?
  • Pros: Not as likely to be RAFO'd (doesn't seem to be related to main plot)
  • Cons: Could be too vague, not move us closer to an answer

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, CTA said:

This theory is fascinating. What questions could we ask Brandon about this that wouldn't get RAFO'd?

Some ideas:

• Are Siah Aimians honorspren that have been pulled into the physical realm?
  • Pros: Very straightforward answer
  • Cons: Could get RAFO'd (related to Ishar's work, which is a plot point); could be too specific, allow Brandon to say "no" even if we're almost correct
• What did diplomatic relations between pre-scouring Aimia and different spren societies look like? Did such relations exist?
  • Pros: Not as likely to be RAFO'd (doesn't seem to be related to main plot)
  • Cons: Could be too vague, not move us closer to an answer

How about, Aside from a Bond, and whatever Ishar is doing is there a way for Spren to enter the Physical realm?

[apepi]

2 hours ago, CTA said:

This theory is fascinating. What questions could we ask Brandon about this that wouldn't get RAFO'd?

Some ideas:

• Are Siah Aimians honorspren that have been pulled into the physical realm?
  • Pros: Very straightforward answer
  • Cons: Could get RAFO'd (related to Ishar's work, which is a plot point); could be too specific, allow Brandon to say "no" even if we're almost correct
• What did diplomatic relations between pre-scouring Aimia and different spren societies look like? Did such relations exist?
  • Pros: Not as likely to be RAFO'd (doesn't seem to be related to main plot)
  • Cons: Could be too vague, not move us closer to an answer

You could ask if humans and spren could produce an offspring, make ti more a Syl Kaladin thing. >.<

As those aimians did have some relations with humans?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

35 minutes ago, apepi said:

As those aimians did have some relations with humans?

Yeah, there's Siah-human hybrids.

Quote

Chris Hansen

Are either the blue-skinned Natans or blue-veined Babatharnams human-Aimian hybrids?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

[Ajaxe]

Always vaguely thought they were some kind of Human - Honor Spren Hybrid? I think there is a WOB that indicates there may have been human/spren relationships in the past. I could be wrong about the WOB. Really like your theory though! 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Ajaxe