Heralds in WoK

[masaru]

I'm extremely interested in this bit from the "Questions for Brandon" topic in General Theories:

So on the questions for Stormlight, it asks how many Heralds we see in WoK. I asked Brandon this in Portland last year, and he said 5.

5 Heralds have been seen in WoK?

1. Kalak (prelude)

2. Jezrien (prelude)

3. Taln (epilogue)

4. Shalash (Baxil's mistress)

5. ???

The first 3 are for sure, #4 is fairly sure, so who is the 5th Herald we see in WoK?

I can't imagine Brandon counts Nalan from the illustration, so there must be a Herald in WoK masquerading as someone else?

[Cuaiir]

Or we see a Herald in one of Dalinar's visions. I'm unsure which vision it would be, but this is another possibility.

[Sunblesser]

unfortunately i am at work and so proper quotation will have to wait until i'm back at home, but i would like to propose that Ishi is the fifth herald that we meet in WoK. and we do so in the prologue. as szeth goes to leave the ballroom that the treaty signing party is being held in, he's accosted by a drunkard who asks him "Have you seen me?"

some have speculated that this could possibly be hoid, though for variuos reasons i don't think this to be the case. drunkeness seems very out of character for hoid. he's a busy man, and wouldn't likely take time out to get sloppy at an alethi party (even though he goes on to be the life of every alethi party). what's more, the question "Have you seen me?" would be a strange one to ask szeth. obviously szeth hasn't. hoid is very careful about what he reveals of himself.

the drunk, iirc (and i will add quotes later), is described as a bald man with a long unkempt beard. Ishi is bald and has a long beard. Ishi being drunk and asking Szeth "Have you seeen me?" makes sense, as the Heralds have each gone insane, and their likenesses are everywhere in the Vorin world. there's a good chance that most everyone has seen him. but of course, Szeth would never expect to find a Herald stinking drunk at a party, and so he dismisses the man.

if this holds up to scrutiny, i think we can add the question "Is Ishi in the WoK prologue?" to the ultimate list.

[PeterAhlstrom]

Um. I think Brandon miscounted.

[Zas678]

Can you give us a better number Peter?

[Sunblesser]

wha? i hope not. i was really excited about my first theory!

i'm posting quotes anyway

Prologue, pg 11 & 12

A man with a long grey and black beard slumped in the doorway, smiling foolishly - though whether from wine or a weak mind, Szeth could not tell.

so it isn't mentioned if the man is bald or not, but Ishi/Ishar is the only Herald with a long beard (Jezrien's is close cropped).

"Have you seen me?" the man asked with slurred speech. He laughed, then began to speak in gibberish, reaching for a wineskin.

Recall that Dalinar's ravings are also called gibberish by those around him, until Navani recognizes them as Dawnchant.

a final quote that i believe is particularly telling comes right after the encounter. Szeth is listing Heralds:

Jezerezeh, Ishi, Kelek, Talenelat. He counted off each one, and realized there were only nine here. One was conspicuously missing. Why had Shalash's statue been removed?

I don't think it's a coincidence that Szeth lists all four of the Heralds that we are reasonably certain have appeared in WoK, and then adds one that doesn't show up. of course, i'll accept peter's word that brandon might have miscounted... if brandon confirms it

Till then, it was Ishar in the Beggar's Feast with a wineskin!

[Link Von Kelsier Harvey]

It's usually a safe bet to just take Peter's word for it.

[Zas678]

I have always thought (even when we had just the prologue), and I still do think that the drunken old man is Hoid/Wit.

As for the perhaps-fifth Herald? I don't know. I always thought there was more to that merchant who trades in Shin lands than meets the eye. And he does seem really worried about people finding him unexpectedly....

[CrazyRioter]

It's usually a safe bet to just take Peter's word for it.

where's the fun in that when we can theorize wildly, I LIKE Sunblesser's idea. And I can't picture Hoid getting drunk.

[Sunblesser]

it just seems to me that putting the drunk in there and having him speak so cryptically would be a weird thing to do if there wasn't more to it. of course, maybe i'm the weird one here. just cuz i don't think hoid would be - or even just act - drunk, doesn't mean he wouldn't do it, if he had a good reason.

[Zas678]

I don't think he would be drunk either. But I do think that he would act drunk. After all, he was willing to be a beggar in Elantris, and a "blind" informant in Mistborn. It's not too much of a stretch to see him acting as a drunk. Especially with who else may have been there....

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Ah, but the drunk guy is sitting on the floor, just drinking. If Hoid was acting drunk for a purpose, would he just be sitting there?

[Zas678]

Yeah, but while sitting there, he gets to see the person about to assassinate the king. Who says that he stayed there?

[PeterAhlstrom]

I'm just going to say that five is not the answer. Could be more, could be fewer.

[Truthless]

I'm just going to say that five is not the answer. Could be more, could be fewer.

You're mean and I love you.

Back on topic: where is it said that all the Heralds are crazy? That's not something I've heard before, although it does feel like it makes sense. But: Shalash seems angry, not crazy, and we haven't met any other (to my knowledge) in the present-day of the story for long enough to really judge their mental state.

[Asha'man Logain]

You're mean and I love you.

Back on topic: where is it said that all the Heralds are crazy? That's not something I've heard before, although it does feel like it makes sense. But: Shalash seems angry, not crazy, and we haven't met any other (to my knowledge) in the present-day of the story for long enough to really judge their mental state.

Also it would seem to make more sense if Taln were the crazy one. Abandoned by all others, taking the torture meant for all ten of them. The unending torture seems like it would be more likely to drive someone insane than not being tortured for that same amount of time. Not to mention they've had food, wine, money and the inate power that comes from being effectively immortal.

As a tangent I think that the Boon and Curse lady is likely a Herald. I know that her powers seem far outside the bounds of what Stormlight or surgebinding can do, but with thousands of years to practice and study i think you'd be able to find new and interesting ways to use it. Especially being a Sanderson magic system, there's always another secret.

[CrazyRioter]

The Heralds were already kind of messed up by the torture they'd already suffered when they walked out I think. Also, being alone for thousands of years with nobody they could really talk to can't have been good for their sanity.

As for the Nightwatcher being a Herald, my gut feeling is no, but then Brandon did say the Heralds are very powerful, and we don't know how powerful that might make them. So we don't really have enough information.

Edited September 21, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[Sunblesser]

i take the idea that the heralds have gone insane from brandon's pitch for the series. it was either in the brandonothology or on his website. though he could have changed his mind since then, it seems to me that the Heralds would have been headed toward madness already, as CrazyRioter says, and the thousands of years spent walking roshar couldn't have helped.

[Zas678]

i take the idea that the heralds have gone insane from brandon's pitch for the series. it was either in the brandonothology or on his website. though he could have changed his mind since then, it seems to me that the Heralds would have been headed toward madness already, as CrazyRioter says, and the thousands of years spent walking roshar couldn't have helped.

Here's the best pitch I've seen Brandon give for the series (from the Brandonothology)

Can you give us some hints as to what The Way of Kings will be about?

I've told Tor that I want to release KINGS on a schedule of two books, followed by one book in another setting, then two more KINGS. The series of KINGS has been named The Stormlight Archive. (The Way of Kings is the name of the first volume.)

So I should be doing plenty of shorter series in between. We'll see how busy this all keeps me. I think I'd go crazy if I weren't allowed to do new worlds every now and again.

But, then, KINGS turned out very, very well. (The first book is complete as of yesterday.) What is it about? Well...I'm struggling to find words to explain it. I could easily give a one or two line pitch on my previous books, but the scope of what I'm trying with this novel is such that it defies my attempts to pin it down.

It happens in a world where hurricane-like storms crash over the land every few days. All of plant life and animal life has had to evolve to deal with this. Plants, for instance, have shells they can withdraw into before a storm. Even trees pull in their leaves and branches. There is no soil, just endless fields of rock.

According to the mythology of the world, mankind used to live in The Tranquiline Halls. Heaven. Well, a group of evil spirits known as the Voidbringers assaulted and captured heaven, casting out God and men. Men took root on Roshar, the world of storms, but the Voidbringers chased them there, trying to push them off of Roshar and into Damnation.

The voidbringers came against man a hundred by a hundred times, trying to destroy them or push them away. To help them cope, the Almighty gave men powerful suits of armor and mystical weapons, known as Shardblades. Led by ten angelic Heralds and ten orders of knights known as Radiants, men resisted the Voidbringers ten thousand times, finally winning and finding peace.

Or so the legends say. Today, the only remnants of those supposed battles are the Shardblades, the possession of which makes a man nearly invincible on the battlefield. The entire world, essentially, is at war with itself--and has been for centuries since the Radiants turned against mankind. Kings strive to win more Shardblades, each secretly wishing to be the one who will finally unite all of mankind under a single throne.

That's the backstory. Probably too much of it. (Sorry.) The book follows a young spearman forced into the army of a Shardbearer, led to war against an enemy he doesn't understand and doesn't really want to fight. It will deal with the truth of what happened deep in mankind's past. Why did the Radiants turn against mankind, and what happened to the magic they used to wield?

I've been working on this book for ten years now. Rather than making it easier to describe and explain, that has made it more daunting. I'm sure I'll get better at it as I revise and as people ask me more often.

[Joe ST]

Requoting Zas with what I picked up on

According to the mythology of the world, mankind used to live in The Tranquiline Halls. Heaven. Well, a group of evil spirits known as the Voidbringers assaulted and captured heaven, casting out God and men. Men took root on Roshar, the world of storms, but the Voidbringers chased them there, trying to push them off of Roshar and into Damnation.

Is this god Honor? Could these events be as far back as the fall of Adonalsium? (I've kinda convinced myself out of this idea now lol.)

What would make one of the shards transport their planet's population somewhere else? Is it not more likely that the assaults of Odium degraded the planet to its current form? And that Damnation is only preached by the Heralds or the Radiants due to the Heralds going there between Desolations?

I see that I'm questioning words given by Brandon himself, but this stuff does sound like it might be what 'the legends say' as he puts it. *shrugs* I guess we'll have to wait XD

[Xavien]

I think the key phrase from the outline is definitely "Or so the legends say." We have plenty of creation myths in our own world and the Christian one specifically talks about a fall from a heaven like place (Eden). It's been 4500 years since the last Desolation in theirs and even longer since the very first one so they could easily have come up with a myth regarding them and why they occurred. As a whole I think the myth is close to reality, but I see Tranquiline Halls and Damnation as more of metaphors describing the state of things before the Oathpact and what they fear will happen if they lose.

Also the current state of religion (at least in Vorinism) is focused on one god while people during the period of Desolations seemed to be aware of all three ("Three gods Heb" from Dalinar's first vision). Who knows, maybe during the cycle of Desolations the people were more aware of the Oathpact then now.

[Zas678]

What would make one of the shards transport their planet's population somewhere else?

I don't know, but I know that it seems like it may have happened before...

From BS store (Aon Ehe)

The story tells of the first princess of Arelon. This was some years after the founding of Arelon following the migration of the Aonic people from other lands. Elantris, of course, had already existed as a city when that migration occurred, and had been discovered empty. While some people assumed it haunted, Proud King Rhashm (later renamed Raoshem) determined to conquer the fears of his people and set up a kingdom centered on Elantris.

Now this may just be a normal migration, or it could be a similar transportation as seems to be described with the Rosharian people.

[lordofsoup]

I like that zas, the other lands part really makes it seem like some off world experience, instead of just say Teod, or one of the other areas in Elantris.

[Chaos]

I disagree. Brandon may have just named every nation in the whole world. What's west of Arelon? Who knows. The planets are surely much bigger than the segment we see.

The Tranquiline Halls might not even be a physical place, after all. I always thought that was metaphorically referring to the Spiritual Realm.

But ultimately, that Vorin backstory is probably far off from what is really happening.