How did the Recreance Happen?

[kaellok]

My personal theory is that surgebinding somehow speeds up or allows the next Desolation to take place.  One of the more outstanding differences between the timeline of the current desolations and that of the previous ones is that there has been a far longer period of peace - likely purchased through the deaths of most spren that can form Nahel bonds.

 

The KR collectively renouncing their vows - how could this happen unless they all believed it was for the greater good?  There had to be a reason why they destroyed their spren.  They probably discovered how the Odium cage worked and that surgebinding weakened the chains, or something like that.  That would explain Darkness' intent on killing any surgebinder he can lay his hands on - the fewer who can surgebind the slower the next Desolation is.

The problem with your theory is that Desolations probably occurred pre-Surgebinders, as spren bonded to humans was something unexpected and unplanned by Honor.  There's also a WoB that Desolations start because of Heraldic presence on Roshar (but that they later learned that as long as one of them 'goes back' then they can prevent a new Desolation from starting even while they are still on Roshar).  So it seems very unlikely that Surgebinding itself causes Desolations.  Speeding them up?  Still very much an option (example: while in Damnation/Braize, the Herald(s) use Stormlight to form a prison keeping Odium chained.  The more Surgebinders there are, the more Stormlight gets used rather than returned, and so the Heralds are eventually unable to keep Odium chained and they return to Roshar to fight him.  I don't think this is the case, but it's a possibility that still fits what we know, and so I'm sure there are others as well).

 

The thing about KR renouncing their vows for the greater good is that the First Ideal is against that thought.  Those who become KR shouldn't be thinking along those kinds of lines.  It is, very much, "I will do what is right because it is right, and suffer the consequences."  They would not kill one innocent in order to save 10, or 100, or 100,000.  Because the thought process of what you are suggesting is diametrically opposed to what they believe in, I find it impossible to think that 90% of them would agree to it, in a relatively short period of time.  There has to be something more, different, going on--like, Odium is the true source of Stormlight (which I actually half believe, but isn't the point of this post or thread).

[kari-no-sugata]

So couple of thoughts. First, maybe the bondsmiths are the order that didn't sacrifice their spren. Then that might be why the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Cuceh (whatever the rest of it is lol) is still around. They were the spren to the three bondsmen. The bondsmiths didn't break the oath, so when the bondsmiths died of natural causes, Stormfather and the rest were free without "dying". Secondly, do we have a time line? I think some has been thrown around here and there, but I am not sure if we have a clear picture. The best guess (which was partly already suggested) I have which could be wrong is this:

 

-Heralds break their oath and abandon Taln

-World celebrates that the Desolations are over

-Radiants originally a multinational and autonomous police force now no longer has common enemy

-Radiants begun separating to their countries of origin

-Due to lack of common enemy, countries begin to fight each other

-Radiants start being used as a "nuclear action"

-countless lives are lost, leaving radiants bitter about ideals, and have either broken their oaths by fighting, or sick of it, break their oaths so as not to be used as such

 

-bonus option, while countries are fighting each other, radiants find out what the heralds really did, feel betrayed and say screw it all and break their oaths. Why should they hold to it, if the heralds they aspire to and follow won't?

 

This feels almost identical to my own theory, except I didn't sketch out the background so much:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8022-how-did-the-recreance-happen/#entry136072

 

I'm still trying to figure out when the Recreance was. It's at least several generations (ie 75+ years) since the "Last Desolation" - in tWoK when Jasnah has Shallan send the picture via spanreed she says it's from a source written several generations after the "Last Desolation" and before the Recreance. I wonder if the whole period from the "Last Desolation" to the Recreance is the Silver Kingdoms Epoch but I'm not that sure. Anyway, it might be several hundred years else the "Last Desolation" and Recreance would be most closely tied together, historically.

 

I was re-reading part of tWoK last night and there's a point where Jasnah says that Urithru was abandoned before the Recreance. This certainly fits in with the theme of the Radiants slowly decaying. Also suggests that we won't find any records there on the Recreance.

 

Brandon also tends to like mysteries that are simple and "obvious" in retrospect (and also doesn't like repeating himself). The idea that the Radiants themselves are fallible also follows the general theme of the series of "the enemy within".

 

I also have another idea about our friend Darkness/Nalan/etc when he says that the Radiants returning would bring another Desolation. We know this guy would have been around during the Recreance and if Radiants started fighting one another it would basically be like a Desolation. Given that he's not really sane anymore, I don't think we should take what he says too literally - but if he means that the Radiants themselves would be like a Desolation by fighting each other then we don't need any convoluted theories about how Radiants can somehow cause the Voidbringers to return.

 

I do agree we need to come up with a solid enough reason for all Radiants to kill their spren and take part. I'm pretty sure if Radiants were fighting each other, most would hate it and want it to end but be struggling to come up with a solution. If 95%+ can agree then the remaining ones can be forced (or killed). I also suspect a Herald or two might have had a hand in this - might have "officially" shown up and told the Radiant leaders what to do.

[Dun Sphere]

I'm going to offer another suggestion here, and after some careful thought it may be the only answer that makes sense. What if the spren eventually convince the radiants that they must kill them because of some sickness or mental issue that will eventually cause the radiants to turn on the humans? This thought makes a lot of sense when you consider how the recreance occurs in Davinar's vision. 

 

Maybe the bond has some taint to it that slowly causes mental corruption. 

[Moogle]

The thing about KR renouncing their vows for the greater good is that the First Ideal is against that thought.  Those who become KR shouldn't be thinking along those kinds of lines.  It is, very much, "I will do what is right because it is right, and suffer the consequences."  They would not kill one innocent in order to save 10, or 100, or 100,000.  Because the thought process of what you are suggesting is diametrically opposed to what they believe in, I find it impossible to think that 90% of them would agree to it, in a relatively short period of time.  There has to be something more, different, going on--like, Odium is the true source of Stormlight (which I actually half believe, but isn't the point of this post or thread).

 

I think it would be well within the First Ideal for the spren and Radiants to sacrifice themselves to prevent Desolations or Odium breaking free or whatever. And I doubt any of the Radiants would have been comfortable with the fact that their mere existence is what caused the death of 90% of the population every hundred years. The First Ideal only goes so far.

 

Ridiculous hypothetical: You have to steal candy from a child or else a hundred thousand people will die. I suspect the First Ideal is weak enough and not binding enough that every Radiant ever could steal that candy. And even if it did break the spren bond, I suspect quite a lot of Radiants would do it anyways.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder]

I'm going to offer another suggestion here, and after some careful thought it may be the only answer that makes sense. What if the spren eventually convince the radiants that they must kill them because of some sickness or mental issue that will eventually cause the radiants to turn on the humans? This thought makes a lot of sense when you consider how the recreance occurs in Davinar's vision. 

 

Maybe the bond has some taint to it that slowly causes mental corruption. 

I like the idea, but then why would all the other spren remember it as a betrayal rather than a sacrifice. 

[Dun Sphere]

I like the idea, but then why would all the other spren remember it as a betrayal rather than a sacrifice. 

 

 

This is what I was able to find, and it kind of still leaves the theory open in my opinion. 

 

WoR Pg. 887-888  - "It is Inevitable," Pattern said. "You will eventually betray your oaths, breaking my mind, leaving me dead-but opportunity is worth the cost."

 

WoR Pg. 255 - "The knights killed their spren."

"How? Why?"

"Their oaths," Pattern said. "It is all I know."

 

WoR Pg. 368 - The spren betrayed us, it's often felt.

Our minds are too close to their realm

That gives us our forms, but more is then

Demanded by the smartest spren,

We can't provide what the humans lend,

though broth are we, their meat is men.

 

Argument against theory:

 

WoR Pg. 241 - "The knights," Syl said, growing quiet. "The knights changed."

"So it's not that the weapons are abominations specifically."

Kaladin said. "It's that the wrong people are carrying them."

"There are no right people anymore," Syl whispered. "Maybe there never were...."

 

WoR Pg. 370 - YOU WILL KILL HER. the voice, so deep, so powerful, sounded regretful. Mournful. YOU WILL MURDER MY CHILD AND LEAVE HER CORPSE TO WICKED MEN.

"I will not!" Kaladin shouted.

"YOU BEGIN IT ALREADY."

 

What I find interesting is how Syl often closes up when Kaladin prompts her to talk about it, but pattern is more than willing. Being a cryptic I have to wonder if he tries to mislead Shallan.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Dun Sphere

[Awesomeness Summoned]

What I find interesting is how Syl often closes up when Kaladin prompts her to talk about it, but pattern is more than willing. Being a cryptic I have to wonder if he tries to mislead Shallan.

Or its just that, being an honorspren, Syl has a harder time discussing men who break their oaths, a very dishonorable thing to do. The idea of the recreance probably doesn't pose any real discrepancies with a cryptic's basic nature so Pattern would have an easier time discussing the issue.

[Pathfinder]

This is what I was able to find, and it kind of still leaves the theory open in my opinion. 

 

WoR Pg. 887-888  - "It is Inevitable," Pattern said. "You will eventually betray your oaths, breaking my mind, leaving me dead-but opportunity is worth the cost."

 

WoR Pg. 255 - "The knights killed their spren."

"How? Why?"

"Their oaths," Pattern said. "It is all I know."

 

WoR Pg. 368 - The spren betrayed us, it's often felt.

Our minds are too close to their realm

That gives us our forms, but more is then

Demanded by the smartest spren,

We can't provide what the humans lend,

though broth are we, their meat is men.

 

Argument against theory:

 

WoR Pg. 241 - "The knights," Syl said, growing quiet. "The knights changed."

"So it's not that the weapons are abominations specifically."

Kaladin said. "It's that the wrong people are carrying them."

"There are no right people anymore," Syl whispered. "Maybe there never were...."

 

WoR Pg. 370 - YOU WILL KILL HER. the voice, so deep, so powerful, sounded regretful. Mournful. YOU WILL MURDER MY CHILD AND LEAVE HER CORPSE TO WICKED MEN.

"I will not!" Kaladin shouted.

"YOU BEGIN IT ALREADY."

 

What I find interesting is how Syl often closes up when Kaladin prompts her to talk about it, but pattern is more than willing. Being a cryptic I have to wonder if he tries to mislead Shallan.

 

Pattern is saying Shallan is going to kill him because it was his first manifestation that resulted in her mother trying to kill her. Shallan then in self defense used Pattern as a shardblade to kill her mother. He realizes that she blames him for her mother's death and will kill him as result. This all occurs at the end of WoR hence why I am putting all of this in a spoiler tag just in case. The part about the spren betraying us, I believe is either insinuated or well established to be the parshendi talking, feeling betrayed that the spren abandoned them for humans because humans "offer something more". The voice of the stormfather regarding that kal will kill Syl is in reference to Dalinar's vision where the radiants toss away their swords(corpses) leaving it to the men who grabbed them up and used them improperly, hence wicked men. Conversely I will need to look it up, but there are quite a few quotes from the stormfather referring to it as betrayal. In addition if it was a noble sacrifice of the spren, why would the stormfather be so pissed at the radiants for killing his children?

Edited May 14, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Dun Sphere]

In addition if it was a noble sacrifice of the spren, why would the stormfather be so pissed at the radiants for killing his children?

 

Perhaps it is not so much the spren that will convince them that they need to, but instead the KR will have to because of the "taint" of the bond that will eventually lead them to killing humans. When the stormfather tells Kaladin he "begins it aready" may be in reference to either the "taint", or the fact that he is breaking the oaths of the windrunners. You are also correct regarding the spren breaking the oaths being mentioned by parshendi. That was actually a listener quote at the beginning of a chapter.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Dun Sphere

[kari-no-sugata]

Poor spren, seems they're first to be fingered if anything goes wrong

 

More seriously, if the spren were the problem then I don't see why the Radiants would keep quiet about it. Ditto for any other external problem.

[Pathfinder]

Maybe the trick the bondsmiths pulled (someone suggested this slightly already in another post) involved separating the voidspren from the parshendi. But in order to do so and balance things, the same had to be done to the radiants, thus "killing" their spren? So either kill your closest friend (spren) or have countless more people die.......

[kari-no-sugata]

It's universally agreed that the Voidbringers were not seen after the "Last Desolation" - it would certainly be noticed if the Heralds had lied. There was a big time gap between the "Last Desolation" and the Recreance so seems rather unlikely that few hundred years later they suddenly find out that things need to be "balanced" and then not explain anything either.

 

I also think it's worth bearing in mind what would work well from a storytelling point of view. For a lot of suggested ideas there's going to be no real way to confirm them (to the main characters) unless the Stormfather decides to suddenly become useful and spends a few pages info-dumping. Rather boring.

[TamM]

What about an agreement from the soldiers on both sides to end the war, a truce. The Parshendi choose to become husks of their former selves and become parshmen forcing out the voidbringers and losing the forms of power meanwhile the KR discard their ideals and their spren losing all of their powers and a close friend.

 

Brokered by the Bondsmiths behind the Heralds backs?

 

The Last Legion stay whole because one of the KR will not give up their spren. Balance is maintained, the Skybreakers hunt down rogue KR and the Parshendi stay low tech living as subsistence farmers. If so it has led to many years of peace?

[kaellok]

I think it would be well within the First Ideal for the spren and Radiants to sacrifice themselves to prevent Desolations or Odium breaking free or whatever. And I doubt any of the Radiants would have been comfortable with the fact that their mere existence is what caused the death of 90% of the population every hundred years. The First Ideal only goes so far.

 

Ridiculous hypothetical: You have to steal candy from a child or else a hundred thousand people will die. I suspect the First Ideal is weak enough and not binding enough that every Radiant ever could steal that candy. And even if it did break the spren bond, I suspect quite a lot of Radiants would do it anyways.

If it were a mutual agreement between the Radiants and the Spren, then sure.  That's the difference between murder and sacrifice.  But, it really doesn't seem like the spren were in on this.  Entire types of spren (or close to it) were wiped out due to the Recreance.  I'm not a spren, and so I don't think like they do, but I'm pretty sure I would try "not binding humans anymore" before "extinction" as an alternative.

 

I agree that the First Ideal has a great deal of wiggle room within it.  I was trying to argue that the very mindset of the KR would be opposed to thinking in the way of 'greatest good' because of it, though.  They're substantially less likely to think of that as an idea, let alone approve of it as an option.  I just can't see the KR knowingly murdering spren wholesale (close, intimate friends of theirs as well), without searching for alternative methods (ie working with the spren) to slow down (not even stop, just slow down) the Desolations.  If the bond really does accelerate the pace of Desolations (incredibly unlikely, given the time after the Heralds left, with KR around and no Desolation) then a far more effective means of dealing with that is: convince the spren to not bond with humans anymore.  While mass murder can do the trick, for some reason, I'm positive that a less insanely homicidal approach could also work.

 

Whyever the Recreance was, I really think it has to be fundamentally different than just slowing or stopping the Desolations.  And it presumably would also have to be something that the spren would find mostly insignificant, or not worth caring about, but of huge import to humans.  At a guess, this would deal with the very nature of things--spren seem largely unconcerned with natural Laws, and only slightly more care that Honor is dead.

 

As far as how it all occurred, I just re-read the section where Dalinar sees it happen.  Adding spoiler tags to shorten my rapidly expanding post.

 

 

Dalinar reached the Shardblades.  They sprouted form the rock like glittering silver trees, a forest of weapons.  They glowed softly in a way his own Shardblade never had, but as he dashed among them, their light started to fade.

 

A terrible feeling struck him.  A sense of immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal.  Stopping where he stood, he gasped, hand to his chest.  What was happening?  What was that dreadful feeling, that screaming he swore he cold almost hear?

The Way of Kings, A Highway to the Sun, p.732, hardcover

The Radiants literally walked away from their oaths, killing the spren that they were bound to in much the same way that Kaladin killed Syl.  The difference is that Kal came back to his Oaths, and thus restored her, but these Radiants never did.  We know that proto-Radiants can hear Shardblades screaming, we can assume that Dalinar is well on his way to becoming one by this point in WoK, and we can infer that what he is almost hearing is the screams of hundreds of spren dying all at once.  It's also possible that, during the visions, when he is closest to the afterimage of the Almighty, that he is also more in tune with Cognitive Realm and so better able to sense things going on that he may miss in the waking world.  This connection is almost definitely the 'sickness' he refers to that overwhelms the Thrill when he is fighting from time to time, and so I think it fair assumptions to make.

Edited May 17, 2014 by kaellok

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

It could be linked to the scourging of the Aimians. Do we know when that event occurred? 

[Seloun]

It could be linked to the scourging of the Aimians. Do we know when that event occurred? 

 

Not in exact terms, no. But it's probably after the Recreance.

 

WoK:

 

 

Likely they’d heard of his kind. It hadn’t been that long since the scouring of his homeland. Just long ago enough for stories and legends to have crept into the general knowledge of most peoples.

 

However, Axies considers a few centuries to be a reasonable length of time, so this alone only helps a bit.

 

Jasnah says:

 

“Perhaps,” Jasnah said. “The Parshendi seemed amused at our interest in the gemstones woven into their beards.” She smiled. “You should have seen our shock when we discovered where they’d gotten them. When the lanceryn died off during the scouring of Aimia, we thought we’d seen the last gemhearts of large size. And yet here was another great-shelled beast with them, living in a land not too distant from Kholinar itself."

 

 

which makes it sound like the scouring of Aimia is relatively well-documented, while we know that events as far back as the Recreance are practically legendary.

 

Vstim also seems reasonably familiar with the scouring:

 

 

“Why we came here,” Vstim said. “The thing we trade for, a treasure that very few know still exists. They were supposed to have died with Aimia, you see. I came here with all of these goods in tow because Talik sent to me to say they had the corpse of one to trade. Kings pay fortunes for them.”

 

Note Vstim's word choice - 'a treasure that very few know still exists' rather than 'a treasure very few still know about' or something similar. The word choice implies that it's something more than 'very few' know about, but only a 'very few' know that it's still around.

 

He also says in present-tense that 'kings pay fortunes for them' (presumably the corpses - i.e. the frozen one Elhokar has) which also seems to imply the scouring must be relatively recent (it's possible it's referring to only preserved ones, but even so it seems unlikely to last millenia).

 

So while not conclusive, it's probably reasonable to think the scouring of Aimia was some time after the Recreance, and in relatively recent history (probably no more than a few centuries, and possibly less).

[LuzdeTormenta]

... if it was a noble sacrifice of the spren, why would the stormfather be so pissed at the radiants for killing his children?

Could it be both? Maybe it *was* a noble sacrifice of the spren involved, from their point of view, but the other spren believed they were forced/coerced/brainwashed?

It would be hard for a human parent to not place blame in a similar situation. Think of parents of fallen soldiers who become disillusioned with or blame the government/military for their child's death.

[Pathfinder]

Could it be both? Maybe it *was* a noble sacrifice of the spren involved, from their point of view, but the other spren believed they were forced/coerced/brainwashed?

It would be hard for a human parent to not place blame in a similar situation. Think of parents of fallen soldiers who become disillusioned with or blame the government/military for their child's death.

All good points, but I don't know, still feels like a bit of a stretch. For instance when a radiant touches the blade, one of the things the dead spren scream (if I recall correctly, i need to check, because as i type this, now I am not completely sure) is "why did you kill me!?!?" or the guy holding the sword when Kal grabs it says something like "I didn't kill you! I don't know why you are dead!?!?" then again I had a very busy (but fun) weekend, so my brain could be fried from lack of sleep. Point is, IF what I remember is correct, then if the spren sacrificed themselves, they would already know why they were killed. Though it could be said that they are in never ending pain, so they get delirious and don't remember since they are "dead". Kinda like an elantian. 

[metaldragon]

"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

 

 

This brings up a very important questions that we havent spent much time really digging into....

 

Which KR order never forswore their oath?

 

1. we know its not honor spren, kriptics, or where ever Lift has since all 3 claim to be the only spren of their kind around.

 

2. Who makes up the last order? I thought for a second maybe its the ghostbloods but they dont all seem to share a similar ideal

 

3. The "sons of honor" are my lading choice for the final group of KR. Amarams actions show that they don't mind lying, stealing or killing if they believe its the right thing to do. 

 

There is a ENTIRE Group of radiants hiding in plain sight!

[Moogle]

There is a ENTIRE Group of radiants hiding in plain sight!

 

Er, yes, they're called the Skybreakers. They're big on upholding oaths, even if the cost is enormous. Look at what Szeth does based on the laws of his people, and then ask yourself whether you think he'll ever forswear his oaths if he bonds a spren.

 

And, of course, Jasnah visits the highspren (big on laws) for information about the previous Desolations. It's almost like the highspren didn't suffer a mass die-off after the Recreance like the other spren did...

Edited May 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder]

I thought the implication was the skybreakers were "normal" but were given shardblades by Nale? So they aren't radiants. Prime example being they don't exhibit any skybreaker powers while trying to stop Lift. (To clarify I mean "present day" skybreakers, not the ones before the final desolation) I believe there are other reasons as well, and if I remember them (hopefully lol) I will follow up on this thread. 

 

edit: ah here's one, Wyndle never comments on the presence of other spren, like how Syl commented about seeing Pattern. So we know spren can see spren of other orders. 

Edited May 22, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Moogle]

I thought the implication was the skybreakers were "normal" but were given shardblades by Nale? So they aren't radiants. Prime example being they don't exhibit any skybreaker powers while trying to stop Lift. (To clarify I mean "present day" skybreakers, not the ones before the final desolation) I believe there are other reasons as well, and if I remember them (hopefully lol) I will follow up on this thread. 

 

I'd agree that most (if not all) Skybreakers currently don't have spren, but the quote in question talks about how 1/10 Knights didn't give up their oaths after the Recreance. I'm guessing it was the Skybreakers.

 

The fact that the Skybreakers as an organization are still around is evidence that the Surgebinding Skybreakers were still organized post-Recreance, even if modern Skybreakers are not Surgebinders.

 

Possible explanation for the modern Skybreakers: spren bonding is actively harmful/brings Desolations, so the highspren refused to bond more people after this was discovered. The Skybreakers kept to their oaths post-Recreance until they died (since the Skybreakers are very big on keeping oaths, at least relative to the other Orders), despite the heavy cost. Nalan is keeping the Order alive and recruiting people he thinks make good Skybreakers. When the highspren decide to start bonding again, they will choose almost all of Nalan's Skybreakers to be actual Surgebinders.

 

Minor WoB evidence for the above:

Q: Does Szeth have any Surgebinding powers . . . losing the honorblade?

A: He would not have any after losing the honorblade. However, he has been approached by a member of one of the orders. And so, it's entirely possible that you would see him going somewhere with that. He also has a very special sword, that does very special things.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Cortez]

It could also be that there is more than one organisation calling itself the Skybreakers. Nalan's non-surgebinding group and the true Skybreakers who are still bonded to spren, can surgebind etc.

[A Joe in the Bush]

It could also be that there is more than one organisation calling itself the Skybreakers. Nalan's non-surgebinding group and the true Skybreakers who are still bonded to spren, can surgebind etc.

 

I recomend Looking at this Thread Here. Nalans motivation for using Szeth (spoilers)

[EvilNuff]

I still maintain that the recreance was a joint decision between KR and spren.  It is my theory/opinion that they realized that the Voidbringers came from parshendi bonding to spren and the Bondsmiths came up with a plan to remove their ability to bond entirely.  This required the breaking of the KR oaths.  If one order "betrayed" the rest by NOT breaking their oaths that explains how the parshendi retained the ability to bond with spren.

 

So the Bondsmiths intentionally broke the ability of human/parshendi to bond, this removes KR as well as voidbringers.

Because 1 order kept their oaths this failed.  There are more parshmen than parshendi and if this ratio turns out to be 9:1 relative to the 9 orders who broke oaths vs the 1 who did not I would not be surprised.