Long Game 29: A Mote in Adonalsium's Eye

[Doc12]

7 hours ago, Elenion said:

Kas, I agree with you. If the kill roles want to come for me, they can. That's their prerogative. If you believe I'm 17th, that's your read. Really our back-and-forth isn't accomplishing anything, so let's just spend our times instead focusing on our logical deductions, because those are what are going to win us this game.

I disagree, good sir. I feel that your debate with Kas has been most enlightening, and has given me two very strong reads, so thank you for that!

Quote

Kas, you bring in a few more names to add to my suspect list. Alv I will agree on; he's now in the same bracket as you. I had forgotten about his tactics in LG24. I don't think Araris has even been active enough to keep a Shard, so he's out. I've played a few games with Aonar and Sart, but neither of them stood out as the kind of player who would sacrifice kill efficiency for subterfuge, although as I said I may be wrong about one or both of them. All things considered, I don't find either of them nearly as suspicious as <Lopen, Kas, Alv>, any of whom I wouldn't put an RNG kill past.

11 hours ago, Elenion said:

Alv, say what? Assuming that you're even telling the truth, you knew that Lopen was Odium, and you were going to let him live? I'd accuse you of being Lopen's convert, but if you were I doubt you'd announce your collaboration.

Although... @Kasimir if Alv is telling the truth, it appears my logic wasn't as flawed as you claimed. Why were you defending Lopen so strongly?

9 hours ago, Elenion said:

Kas, I know that you disagree with my reasoning patterns, but so far they have proved to be more accurate than yours.

So, if Lopen was Odium, then you would have pointed at Lopen correctly. However, as has been pointed out in the last cycle, your main argument against Lopen was the seeming use of a RNG to determine kills, and the fact that it would be a more experienced player who would use that tactic. I believe Kasimir or Alvron pointed out that Lopen was not the only experienced player in the game, at which point you came up with reasons why the other experienced players were not likely to be evil. To me, that sounds a little off. You state that your reasons are the kill patterns, and gut read.

So at this point, I'm wondering 'what logic?' I don't mean to cause offense, but frankly, your given reasons for voting on Lopen were basically gut read and the aforementioned kill distribution, which cannot really be used to pin down one specific player. 

What does this mean? Well, if Alv was right and you had successfully pointed a finger at Odium, with nothing more than gut read and a generalization, it makes me feel that you know a bit more than you're telling us. As a player in our World PM stated, you might very well be someone who started with knowledge of the Shardholders, and was hoping that being the first to accuse Odium and help the village lynch him would engender you into a position of trust. Kas has also pointed out how you have been seemingly keeping the focus on Odium instead of the 17th shard, and I am inclined to agree, for now. 

There is also the votes last cycle. When I went to bed, Len and Lopen were the main targets for the lynch, and as I went to bed Len was leading the lynch by two votes. When I checked the thread the next morning, Lopen was in the lead, with only two votes on Len. Reading over the last cycle, there was a fair bit of vote switching near the end of the cycle, and an un-subtle bandwagon, as Bard pointed out. It's just something which makes me feel more and more convinced that Len is a 17th Sharder. Possibly Hoid himself. 

So that's something I've noticed, my suspicions out in the open. If I die tonight, well, you'll know my final suspicions. If i get converted tonight, heh, it would be a little harder for me to switch stances, given that I've flat out stated my suspicion, and to change it would be immediately obvious. Goodnight, all!

[Elenion]

12 hours ago, Aonar Faileas said:

Autonomous (Thoughts? I like the term, and as of yet, I haven't seen an agreed upon one bandied about. )

Just noticed this. I prefer 'Autonomites'.

3 hours ago, Doc12 said:

So at this point, I'm wondering 'what logic?' I don't mean to cause offense, but frankly, your given reasons for voting on Lopen were basically gut read and the aforementioned kill distribution, which cannot really be used to pin down one specific player. 

No offense taken. The way my gut works, it makes sense. 

 

Okay, so I have two players who think that I'm 17th pretty solidly, and so just in case a friendly neighborhood vigilante decides to drop by tonight, I'll dump a list of my suspicions that will be cleared once my alignment gets revealed. Notable reads are italicized, and strong suspicions are in bold.

 

Assassin in Burgundy: I can't say anything about his alignment for certain, but I'm 90% sure that he's not Auto or Hoid. He's just not invested enough in the game.

Elodin: Seems a little lurky to me, but I find him hard to read. If I had to make one guess I'd say village.

DA: Inactive. Voidbringer/Ruin, fire at will.

Doc: My gut is actually leaning Autonomite due to his stance appearing neutral, much like Alv's, but I don't have any proof at this point and so I'm not going to act on it. I doubt he's 17th, though.

Kynedath: Inactive.

Straw: I don't personally believe his claim about there being a secret shard, just based on the way that the rules are written. Sounds like a good excuse to justify being scanned as Shardic investiture, though. I could see him as Auto himself or as a 17th regular.

Bard: I would bet that he holds a major shard, such as Auto or Cultivation, due to his activity levels. Would make a good convert for Hoid, but I'm not sure if Hoid has got to him yet.

Mage: Some things about Mage's story are not adding up. Like the fact that he says he's out of metals, but that he didn't find any killers (unless I'm misunderstanding him very badly indeed). The only option that I can see is that he false-claimed, and is really a big role like Hoid or Autonomy. Would advise lynching him next cycle unless we have a very good reason not to.

Alv: I would be paranoid of Alv as Lopen's replacement, but Alv outed their collaboration to the thread when he didn't need to. I agree with Sart that there's a good chance Alv is an Autonomite or Auto himself.

DK: No read. Probability says village.

Stick: Has been active enough to hold a Shard, and her longevity would make her a good convert for Auto or Hoid.

Rubiks: Eh, I'm not reading much. Slightly village.

Drought: Same as Rubiks.

Araris: 17th, 75% surety. His complete lack of a role--as outed by Kas--makes me extremely suspicious of him. The only no-role player that we've seen so far is Jondesu (17th), and there are enough minor roles for Seonid to have given the village enough to make there no village vanillas. Elim vanillas, on the other hand, are a good balancing tactic.

Arinian: I don't like his willingness to switch viewpoints and votes, but as far as I remember he's voted with me, so I'll overlook that. 

Zeph: Is he/she even in the game? Inactive.

Sart: Some things that Sart's said I agree with, like his suspicion that Alv is Auto. But some things, like Auto's death hurting the 17th, I don't agree with. I can't gut-read much either way, but the paranoid side of my mind has him as an Autonomite searching for credibility by suspecting their leader.

Aonar: Lurky but making an effort to contribute. Complete neutral read.

Len: No bias here at all. 

Kas: While I disagree with some of Kas' logic, the way that he suspects me actually makes me tend to think that he's village. I'd trust Kas' gut over most players here, except his read on me.

 

Questions? I'll be on periodically for the next hour, then I'll be off completely for the 5 after that.

[Stick.]

 

38 minutes ago, Elenion said:

Stick: Has been active enough to hold a Shard, and her longevity would make her a good convert for Auto or Hoid.

I don't hold no shard :-P Nothing important is happening to me but at least i didn't get a vanilla role 

[Arinian]

57 minutes ago, Elenion said:

Arinian: I don't like his willingness to switch viewpoints and votes, but as far as I remember he's voted with me, so I'll overlook that. 

Sorry, but just interesting where I changed my viewpoints ? And as I recall I didn't change my vote, twice voted against Lopen (voted on Lopen then retract my vote(cause was not sure if there was tie and i didn't want tie) and then again put my vote on Lopen).

[Seonid]

And the night is over!

[Seonid]

LG29: Day Five - Entropy

Ruin waited patiently for his prey. His power surged in his physical form, waiting to be unleashed. It had been far too long.

His target came into view, just over the horizon. The worldhopper called Magestar was traveling on the surface of this world, blissfully unaware of the Shardic avatar of entropy.

Although a tiny burst of power could easily age the worldhopper’s heart by a century, killing him, or perhaps reduce a few key blood vessels to dust, Ruin was eager and anxious to exercise the power of ending on a grand scale. Destroying the planet was, unforutnately, forbidden at the moment (though he thought he might be able to get away with it if he could convince the coalition that Hoid had been there - legitimate military targets and all that). So was rendering its surface uninhabitable. Both would have been very fun.

So he decided to do something simple. Converting all of the matter in a 2 cm radius around Magestar into antimatter would release more than enough energy to kill his target, would leave most of the planet still habitable, and would be the most fun he’d had in millennia.

So he did it.

The explosion was the most massive that world had ever seen. The shock wave flattened towns, incinerated farmsteads, and depopulated a mid-sized city. Earthquakes triggered by the explosion caused massive damage, and one diverted the course of a large river through the largest city on the continent. All told, it was a beautiful sight.

But something was missing. It didn’t quite have enough...flair. Frowning, Ruin watched the expanding destruction for a moment. Then he smiled. Under the place where Magestar had once stood was a geological hot spot. It hadn’t erupted in a thousand years, but the force of the explosion had awoken it to life again. With a touch more power, it burst into what would soon become a new mountain, rising from the surrounding plane. Volcanic, of course. Now that was style. Whistling merrily to himself, Ruin returned to his business.

Several hours later, the rapidly hardening lava cracked open, and Magestar stood. Slightly burned, and surrounded by a protective shield of power, he surveyed the apocalyptic landscape around him. Shaking his head, he vanished.



PUNisher (harambe) has passed to the Spiritual Realm. He was an Elantrian!

AliasSheep (AliasSheep) has been Returned!

Magestar (Magestar) was attacked, but survived!


Day 5 has begun, and will end in 48 hours.

Player List:
1. Assassin in Burgundy - First of the Game
2. Master Elodin - Second of the Signups
3. Jondesu - Quintus 17th Shard Worldhopper
4. AliasSheep - Kelen Taldar Returned
5. Darkness Ascendant - Kaldain Selblessed
6. A Joe in the Bush - Jack Tormander Returned Agent of Autonomy!
7. Doc12 - Silence
8. Kynedath - Desten Kyde
9. TheMightyLopen - Kaloo
10. Straw - Malum Farcimen
11. Young Bard - Serol
12. Magestar - Magestar
13. Alvron - Lorna
14. Dalinar Kholin - Sanya
15. Harambe - PUNisher Elantrian
16. I_am_a_Stick - Stic
17. RubiksCube - cubefright archive
18. DroughtBringer - Ralar
19. Araris Valerian - Aralis
20. Arinian - Arinian
21. Zephrer - Tardeick
22. Conquestor - Farallen Oniz Vessel of Preservation!
23. Sart - Sam Trudite
24. Aonar Faileas - Nilan Izenry
25. Elenion - emissary of Mandos
26. Kasimir - Tenth of the Dusk

Edited January 4, 2017 by Alvron

[Magestar]

In response to Len;  Why would false-claiming a Mistborn make me likely to be Autonomy or Hoid?  What?  How does that make any sense?

To be honest, I did misunderstand how Mistborn Charges work.  I'll admit I did fake-claim, and, seeing as my extra life is gone, I got Preservation after it was shattered.  I'm passing it this cycle, unless I get a really good reason not to, since its usefulness has passed.  I was trying to un-shatter it, but Cultivation declined to 'refill my Mistborn Charges'.

As far as targeting Alv with the Mistborn Ability, that did happen.  I was invested by Endowment while on Scadrial, for whatever reason.

Also, going off of what I said in the World PM, Len.  My reasons for lynching you last cycle have not changed, and I feel even more confidant that you are 17th Shard now.  I'll elaborate later.

Seonid, love the Writeup!  

[Arinian]

13 minutes ago, Magestar said:

In response to Len;  Why would false-claiming a Mistborn make me likely to be Autonomy or Hoid?  What?  How does that make any sense?

To be honest, I did misunderstand how Mistborn Charges work.  I'll admit I did fake-claim, and, seeing as my extra life is gone, I got Preservation after it was shattered.  I'm passing it this cycle, unless I get a really good reason not to, since its usefulness has passed.  I was trying to un-shatter it, but Cultivation declined to 'refill my Mistborn Charges'.

As far as targeting Alv with the Mistborn Ability, that did happen.  I was invested by Endowment while on Scadrial, for whatever reason.

Also, going off of what I said in the World PM, Len.  My reasons for lynching you last cycle have not changed, and I feel even more confidant that you are 17th Shard now.  I'll elaborate later.

Seonid, love the Writeup!  

Shattered Shard can use abilities? Also If Shard of Preservation was unshattered isn't it should be noted in writeup? Are the passive shard protection(extra life) works when shard shattered? I'm confused by what you were protected(by mistborn ability or by shard extra life?)? Also you was invested by Endowment(too many coincidences, isn't it?)? I have only three guesses what there happens: 1) Mage was bitten by harambe and now he have some kind of "erratic role claiming illness". 2) Somewhere hides shard of Unsurvival. 3)He is bad guy.(or just mad) Mage

[Seonid]

If a Shard is Unshattered, it will be noted in the writeup.

A player that holds a Shattered Shard gains the investment ability of that Shard.

[Arinian]

1 minute ago, Seonid said:

If a Shard is Unshattered, it will be noted in the writeup.

A player that holds a Shattered Shard gains the investment ability of that Shard.

Oh okay. Mage

[Dustbringer12]

@Seonid I was going through the rules, and I was wondering, since Autonomy cannot convert shards, is it possible for a shard to passed to a converted?

[Seonid]

12 minutes ago, RubiksCube said:

@Seonid I was going through the rules, and I was wondering, since Autonomy cannot convert shards, is it possible for a shard to passed to a converted?

It is. And it is possible for Autonomy to convert a Vessel that has passed their Shard.

[Dustbringer12]

1 hour ago, Seonid said:

1 hour ago, Seonid said:

It is. And it is possible for Autonomy to convert a Vessel that has passed their Shard.

Won't let me type outside of this. Thank you, though.

[Elenion]

Hey, I actually survived!

Anyone else notice that Odium didn't kill last night? I think that that means that either 1) Lopen didn't have a Champion and some inactive player now holds Odium, or 2) Odium's new holder is laying low for the moment, possibly because they feared being scanned.

[Arinian]

7 hours ago, Elenion said:

Hey, I actually survived!

Anyone else notice that Odium didn't kill last night? I think that that means that either 1) Lopen didn't have a Champion and some inactive player now holds Odium, or 2) Odium's new holder is laying low for the moment, possibly because they feared being scanned.

As I understand if there was no Champion and someone randomly get Odium he not gonna get his win condition.

[Doc12]

Firstly, welcome back, Sheep! 

Secondly, good on you for surviving the attack, Mage. Better pass the Shard quick, though. You have a large target painted on you currently. 

Thirdly, as per the suspicion I posted last night, I will be placing my vote on Elenion.

The charges I bring against him are

1. Seeming to want to keep the 17th Shard out of the spotlight

2. Seemingly knowing Lopen was Odium despite not being able to present convincing evidence.

Len, you have not responded to my suspicion, only posting a list of your own suspicions. I'm hoping everyone else will pitch in and judge the validity of my evidence for themselves.

Now to some other thoughts.

Mage, I have to admit I now have a suspicion of you. I understand your reasons for obfuscating the truth, of course, but still. I'll be waiting for that promised elaboration. 

 

Arinian, I'm a little confused as to why you retracted your vote on Mage. You gave three reasons for wanting to lynch Mage, them being

1. He is claiming roles erratically

2. He is the Shard of Survival

3. He is just a bad guy.

You asked Seonid a question about Shattered Shards and what happens to a holder, and after he answered, you retracted your vote, despite Seonid's answer not having any direct relevance to those three reasons you voted for Mage in the first place. So I'm curious, I guess.

Lastly, Rubik's question seemed a little curious, but I have nothing much to say about that. 

Oh, and Len posted a suspicion list last night, which I went over,

Quote

Assassin in Burgundy: I can't say anything about his alignment for certain, but I'm 90% sure that he's not Auto or Hoid. He's just not invested enough in the game.

Elodin: Seems a little lurky to me, but I find him hard to read. If I had to make one guess I'd say village.

DA: Inactive. Voidbringer/Ruin, fire at will.

Doc: My gut is actually leaning Autonomite due to his stance appearing neutral, much like Alv's, but I don't have any proof at this point and so I'm not going to act on it. I doubt he's 17th, though.

Kynedath: Inactive.

Straw: I don't personally believe his claim about there being a secret shard, just based on the way that the rules are written. Sounds like a good excuse to justify being scanned as Shardic investiture, though. I could see him as Auto himself or as a 17th regular.

Bard: I would bet that he holds a major shard, such as Auto or Cultivation, due to his activity levels. Would make a good convert for Hoid, but I'm not sure if Hoid has got to him yet.

Mage: Some things about Mage's story are not adding up. Like the fact that he says he's out of metals, but that he didn't find any killers (unless I'm misunderstanding him very badly indeed). The only option that I can see is that he false-claimed, and is really a big role like Hoid or Autonomy. Would advise lynching him next cycle unless we have a very good reason not to.

Alv: I would be paranoid of Alv as Lopen's replacement, but Alv outed their collaboration to the thread when he didn't need to. I agree with Sart that there's a good chance Alv is an Autonomite or Auto himself.

DK: No read. Probability says village.

Stick: Has been active enough to hold a Shard, and her longevity would make her a good convert for Auto or Hoid.

Rubiks: Eh, I'm not reading much. Slightly village.

Drought: Same as Rubiks.

Araris: 17th, 75% surety. His complete lack of a role--as outed by Kas--makes me extremely suspicious of him. The only no-role player that we've seen so far is Jondesu (17th), and there are enough minor roles for Seonid to have given the village enough to make there no village vanillas. Elim vanillas, on the other hand, are a good balancing tactic.

Arinian: I don't like his willingness to switch viewpoints and votes, but as far as I remember he's voted with me, so I'll overlook that. 

Zeph: Is he/she even in the game? Inactive.

Sart: Some things that Sart's said I agree with, like his suspicion that Alv is Auto. But some things, like Auto's death hurting the 17th, I don't agree with. I can't gut-read much either way, but the paranoid side of my mind has him as an Autonomite searching for credibility by suspecting their leader.

Aonar: Lurky but making an effort to contribute. Complete neutral read.

Len: No bias here at all. 

Kas: While I disagree with some of Kas' logic, the way that he suspects me actually makes me tend to think that he's village. I'd trust Kas' gut over most players here, except his read on me

And I might be biased because I think you're 17th, Len, but currently I'm going to watch Araris, Mage and Straw a little closer :P. Based on past games, you do tend to be a little audacious when posting your gut reads. 

@Kasimir, when you get on, I'm wondering if you could explain why you Forged Araris, and the results you got. Mage, I'm already watching, and I haven't really seen Straw around lately...

I realize that currently I'm currently holding a bias and might not be completely objective, so don't take this last section too seriously. Hope to see more discussion when I'm back.  

[Magestar]

44 minutes ago, Doc12 said:

Mage, I have to admit I now have a suspicion of you. I understand your reasons for obfuscating the truth, of course, but still. I'll be waiting for that promised elaboration. 

Yeah, I suppose that's what happens when you false-claim.  My intention was to get Cultivation to fix Preservation without anyone realizing what was going on.  At this point, I'm glad they didn't, as I would have died, but if someone had attacked me after cultivation had fixed Preservation, then I would no longer be 'Invested' by Preservation, and I could have been killed by Odium, or, in this case, Ruin.  Unfortunately, as I'm not a Mistborn, I have no idea if you lose a vial to being role blocked.  So I went with what I had, hoping to buy enough time to get Cultivation to fix Preservation, (Giving me a Shard.  That would have been nice) and simultaneously remaining anonymous.  After that, with a Shards Protection, plus Preservations investment ability, I would have been nearly unkillable, which would have been very nice.

50 minutes ago, Doc12 said:

Arinian, I'm a little confused as to why you retracted your vote on Mage. You gave three reasons for wanting to lynch Mage, them being

1. He is claiming roles erratically

2. He is the Shard of Survival

3. He is just a bad guy.

You asked Seonid a question about Shattered Shards and what happens to a holder, and after he answered, you retracted your vote, despite Seonid's answer not having any direct relevance to those three reasons you voted for Mage in the first place. So I'm curious, I guess.

If I understand Arinian correctly, his vote on me was largely because he didn't realize that holding a Shattered Preservation would give me it's investment ability (An Extra Life.)  After Seonid clarified, he retracted his vote.  Also, he said the shard of Unsurvival.  

My vote on Len stands for several reasons.  A;  The reasons for lynching him last cycle hold.  He was pushing a lynch against what seemed most logical, in my opinion. B;  This leads me to believe that he knew Lopen was Odium, because he was 17th Shard.  He assumed that, by lynching Odium, he could gain the trust of the village, and place himself on firm ground. This is why he pushed a Lopen lynch against other options.  C;  The last minute Bandwagon on Lopen.  I feel as though there was definitely something suspicious behind that.  D;  I have a general bad gut read on Len.  Then again, that's fairly normal.  However, normal Aggressive!Len hops around, violently accusing multiple people, from my experience.  It's not like him to drive one lynch on little data.

That's about al my reasons for distrusting Len, at the moment.  I'd like more people to get on and reply, but I don't have the time to ping everyone.  Someone start pinging.

[AliasSheep]

I'm still in the process of reading back of the game (I might have slightly stopped when I died >>) but I figure I'm going to explain my actions as Devotion because I saw some people reading stuff into them when really they didn't make a lot of sense.

Night one:  I made a PM with myself, Mage, Kas, Jondesu, Lopen and and Bard because I thought making a PM with active people in the thread would be a good idea.  I put too many people in it since I was trying to hide myself amongst the crowd.

Night two: I forgot to make any PMs due to sleep.  this is why sleep is bad

Night three: I made a PM between Lopen and Len because Len asked me to.  I then made a PM between myself and Kas because I wanted to give my shard away to someone, Kas seemed trustworthy and I figured that since I could pass during the day turn I would talk it over with him to see if he was okay with it and then if he wasn't, brainstorm some other possible vessels. Since I had 3 PMs I could make, I picked two people off the original PM, Mage and Bard, as I figured that even if I didn't know quite what it would be used for, they were both decent players and so could maybe make use of it better than I could.  I also happened to die this night.  The PMs I created were made, the players informed and then the PMs closed immediately.

[Alvron]

Welcome back @AliasSheep.  Did someone try to Invest in you D3?

I'm voting for Araris this round.  He's my best bet for being Hoid.  Kas said he Forged swapped roles with Araris and got nothing back.  Not even an empty vessel role.  To me that says that Araris either doesn't have a role or is Hoid as Hoid's role can't be forged away.  It's not much but it's all I have.

[AliasSheep]

Just now, Alvron said:

Welcome back @AliasSheep.  Did someone try to Invest in you D3?

I'm voting for Araris this round.  He's my best bet for being Hoid.  Kas said he Forged swapped roles with Araris and got nothing back.  Not even an empty vessel role.  To me that says that Araris either doesn't have a role or is Hoid as Hoid's role can't be forged away.  It's not much but it's all I have.

They did, aye.

[Alvron]

4 minutes ago, AliasSheep said:

They did, aye.

That was Odium.  Or so Lopen claimed.  He said he used his Invest ability to find Shards so he could Shatter them.

[AliasSheep]

Just now, Alvron said:

That was Odium.  Or so Lopen claimed.  He said he used his Invest ability to find Shards so he could Shatter them.

Interesting.  Definitely gives credit to your afore claims of Lopen being Odium.

[Alvron]

2 minutes ago, AliasSheep said:

Interesting.  Definitely gives credit to your afore claims of Lopen being Odium.

It also means that Lopen didn't have a Champ at the start of D4.  It's possible that he created one during that day but at least he didn't start the day with one.

[Aonar]

10 minutes ago, Alvron said:

Welcome back @AliasSheep.  Did someone try to Invest in you D3?

I'm voting for Araris this round.  He's my best bet for being Hoid.  Kas said he Forged swapped roles with Araris and got nothing back.  Not even an empty vessel role.  To me that says that Araris either doesn't have a role or is Hoid as Hoid's role can't be forged away.  It's not much but it's all I have.

You're putting words in Kas's mouth there, mate. He was distinctly ambiguous as to whether or not Araris had a role. Doesn't mean he's not 17th, but unless Kas shows up and definitely says whether or not Araris gave him a role, your reasoning's faulty. (Ditto for you Len.)

Okay. So as for my own thoughts... I'm not sure. Things have been so dead today it's hard for me to get a solid feeling on anyone in the wake of last cycle's events.Some things (like the fact that Alvron is either Autonomy/Autonomy's current Agent) are glaringly obvious, but none of them are terribly useful. I'm suspicious of Len, but it feels like I'm always suspicious of Len, evil or not.  I'm fairly certain Kas is either good, or was good up until last night, but that doesn't really get us anywhere. And as for everyone else... complete neutral. I was hoping to have stronger feelings by the end of the day, but it's half over and nothing has happened...

[Alvron]

3 minutes ago, Aonar Faileas said:

You're putting words in Kas's mouth there, mate. He was distinctly ambiguous as to whether or not Araris had a role. Doesn't mean he's not 17th, but unless Kas shows up and definitely says whether or not Araris gave him a role, your reasoning's faulty. (Ditto for you Len.)

You're right.  I thought that when Kas said:

Quote

I'm a Forger - or was, since I now have Araris's role (or lack thereof) and Araris is a Forger.

That it meant that Araris had no role.  I'll keep my vote where it is for now but @Kasimir, did Araris have a role when you swapped it with yours?