Who Has Taln's Blade?

[Moogle]

He seems as likely as anyone at this point. It's like there are gaps for each group. Some have motive, but probably not opportunity (Shin, Sons of Honor, Ghostbloods). Few have opportunity, but do they have motive (like Borodin, Hoid)?

 

Yeah, I get the feeling the person who did it is unknown to us so far. That said, I'd actually guess that the Diagramists are behind it - they are the ones with knowledge and possible means, though we don't know for sure. They're the only candidates with a strong possibility behind them imo.

[kari-no-sugata]

I agree, it would be a letdown if he were not Taln. But I think he could be Jezrien or one of the other Heralds suffering from multiple personality disorder, and it would still be okay with me.

 

I'm okay with "Taln" not being Taln so long as it's one of the other Heralds. My current pet theory is that the real Taln appeared some time ago (maybe 5-7 years ago) and was found by one of the other Heralds, who was then plagued with guilt over what had happened to Taln and took him to the Nightwatcher to get "cured" - but the curse was that the Herald who brought him became insane instead (or got swapped with Taln or whatever).

 

Doesn't explain what happened to the Blades though... or what has happened to the real Taln.

 

I wonder how long it'll be until Shallan finds some old records in Urithru that mention Taln's original name not his modern one...

[soulcastJam]

Hmmm...  You could have something with the Nightwatcher.  But it doesn't have to be another herald.  Anyone could have asked to become a herald and swapped places with Taln.  Maybe.

[Lumen]

In the Way of Kings epilogue

 

 

A gigantic man with dark skin and dark eyes, dressed in ragged cloth, stands outside.

 

It is mentioned he has dark eyes while holding his blade.  When do the eyes change?  Is it when having an Honorblade summoned, or having the Honorblade summoned, and using stormlight?  Szeth's eyes are blue, but get lightened when he is in the fighting sequences, but he is always holding stormlight then.  Are there instances of Szeth having light blue eyes, with blade out and not holding stormlight?

[Moogle]

In the Way of Kings epilogue

 

 

It is mentioned he has dark eyes while holding his blade.  When do the eyes change?  Is it when having an Honorblade summoned, or having the Honorblade summoned, and using stormlight?  Szeth's eyes are blue, but get lightened when he is in the fighting sequences, but he is always holding stormlight then.  Are there instances of Szeth having light blue eyes, with blade out and not holding stormlight?

 

In Kaladin's fight with Szeth, Szeth unsummons his Honorblade, but is still holding Stormlight (and then Lashes himself away from Kaladin). His eyes become dark.

 

Relevant quote:

Got to move, Kaladin thought. Before he summons that Blade again. Unfortunately, he failed to shove down the horror at having lost the hand. No more spear fighting. No more surgery. Both men he had learned to be were now lost to him.

Except . . . he could almost feel . . .

“Did I Lash you?” the assassin asked in accented Alethi. His eyes had darkened, losing their sapphire blue quality. “To the ground? But why did you not die falling? No. I must have Lashed you upward. Impossible.” He stepped back.

A moment of surprise. A moment to live. Perhaps . . . Kaladin felt the Light working, the tempest within straining and pushing. He gritted his teeth and heaved somehow. The color returned to his hand, and feeling— cold pain— suddenly flooded his arm, hand, fingers. Light began to stream from his hand.

“No . . .” the assassin said. “No!”

Whatever Kaladin had done to his hand had consumed much of his Light and his overall glow faded, leaving him barely alight. Still on his knees, gritting his teeth, Kaladin grabbed the knife from his belt, but found his grip weak. He almost fumbled the weapon as he got it free.

He swapped the knife to his off hand. It would have to do.

He threw himself to his feet and charged the assassin. Have to hit him quickly to have a chance. The assassin jumped backward, soaring a good ten feet, his white clothing rippling in the night air. He landed with a lithe grace, Shardblade appearing in his hand. “What are you?” he demanded.

 

He is holding Stormlight throughout.

 

I can think of no instances where Szeth has his Honorblade out without holding Stormlight, but he says merely holding his Honorblade is sufficient in WoK:

Szeth tried to play the part, tried to make himself act less refined. It was very difficult for him. Perhaps impossible. What would these men say if they knew that the man who emptied their chamber pot was a Shardbearer and a Surgebinder? A Windrunner, like the Radiants of old? The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Moogle

[Lumen]

Thanks for that.  I have listened to the audio book a couple times, and was remembering Szeth's eyes as a darker shade of blue when they were not lightened.  But they are green!  

 

 

 

The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.

 

That pretty much says something is up with the "Taln" that is banging on the gates with his blade in hand, as he is described as "dark-eyed" while holding the blade.   This implies he was holding an un-bonded blade (of either kind).  Unless it was a mistake in the writing...  or... it is Hoid/Wit's POV.  He may consider darkeyed having a different meaning than people of this world.  

[Moogle]

That pretty much says something is up with the "Taln" that is banging on the gates with his blade in hand, as he is described as "dark-eyed" while holding the blade.   This implies he was holding an un-bonded blade (of either kind).  Unless it was a mistake in the writing...  or... it is Hoid/Wit's POV.  He may consider darkeyed having a different meaning than people of this world.  

 

Or Heralds might not have their eye color changed by their Blades, or their eyes might darken after holding their Blades for a long time, or a billion other things.

 

Eye colors are weird on Roshar.

 

I definitely agree with you that the most likely option is that the one calling himself Taln was not holding a bonded Honorblade, though.

[Marmota]

In the epilogue of WoK, Taln blade didnt dismiss when he drop it. Wouldn't it be a confirmation that it was an honorblade? I would be very disapointed with BS if Taln ordered his blade to remain on the ground, even though he was stuned in a a pos-teleportation process, semi mad condition. 

 

And for me it really feels weird this WoB stating that the madman and the guy at the gate were the same man. They didnt feel like the same man. The Taln at Kholinar's gate didnt repeat the same words as the madman did....But well, if he said so....

 

The WoB didnt say whether Taln is or isnt a fake one. Why would he give us such a clue for free? (that taln isnt really taln)

 

I dont know, something is really off here. It is obvious by the books that the switch of blades did happen, and whether Taln is or not the madman is a issue that Brandon himself planted in our minds....

 

After reading this tread i conclud that BS didnt actually leave solid clues for us hehe....We are gona have to wait

 

 

But for now i hope that Taln is really Taln, otherwise BS is gona be throwing the aewsome epilogue of WoK right in the trash,

Edited August 17, 2014 by Marmota

[Moogle]

In the epilogue of WoK, Taln blade didnt dismiss when he drop it. Wouldn't it be a confirmation that it was an honorblade? I would be very disapointed with BS if Taln ordered his blade to remain on the ground, even though he was stuned in a a pos-teleportation process, semi mad condition.

 

If "Taln" was holding an unbonded Shardblade, it wouldn't disappear. Only if the Blade is bonded will it disappear when dropped. His eye color was also unaffected, which means it wasn't a bonded Shardblade. Although, he's a Herald, so maybe their eye color doesn't change when holding an Honorblade/bonding a Shardblade.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Moogle

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 It is said that some spren were killed, and that some that were killed could be healed. I am wondering if the honor blades could be used to restore the fallen spren. It is believed some orders were wiped out by the breaking of the oath, so what if this blade could restore their spren, they are the least understood surges used so good chance.

 I am hoping that the wind runner honor blade can heal the honor spren blades

[Bort]

Perhaps the sword Dalinar had at the end of WoR was the same sword that Taln had at the end of WoK. We already ahve suggestions that the Honour Blades can change - Szeth's was plain when he wielded it, but all the Honour Blades were ornamented and fancy during the last desolation.

 

The shape of the blade could be more related to the person wielding it, and their personality. We know almost nothing about Taln's (as in, the Herald, not the madman, if indeed they are different people) personality, nor do we know about the personality of the Herald that previously owned Szeth's blade.

 

We do know, however, that a short, practical blade suits Szeth's personality as a Truthless - outcast, with nothing to live for but his honour and his punishment. No-one with Szeth's personality in this position would decorate his sword to make himself look more important.

 

Also, the Blade that Dalinar bonded, with the large, cleaver like blade fits Dalinar's personality too. Large, blunt, more like a hammer than a stiletto.

[Moogle]

Perhaps the sword Dalinar had at the end of WoR was the same sword that Taln had at the end of WoK. We already ahve suggestions that the Honour Blades can change - Szeth's was plain when he wielded it, but all the Honour Blades were ornamented and fancy during the last desolation.

 

Unfortunately, we have confirmation that they were switched (because Dalinar did not have an Honorblade - only deadsprenblades will scream at you when touched), and that Shardblades only change minorly over long periods of time:

Question

At the very end of Words of Radiance, Dalinar touches a Shardblade and it screams at him.  Should that particular Blade have been safe?

Brandon Sanderson

No it should not have. It's a clue that something has happened. There are other clues that something is wrong with what the story you've been told is.

Question

Because Option 2 is that it's unsafe to touch an honorblade, but there's no evidence of that.

Brandon Sanderson

There is no evidence of that. There's much stronger evidence that something else is going on.

Question

Did Hoid switch out the blades?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

(source)

 

RIT

Alright, glowing Shardplate and retractable helmets. Is that a similar origin of the Shardblades—

Brandon Sanderson

There's a similarity, but they are also very different.

RIT

Yeah, I noticed they do seem like advanced fabrials, because Adolin just keeps going on and on about how they're all interchangeable and how they all feel comfortable after a while, and it doesn't have the same kind of thing with the Shardblades.

Brandon Sanderson

No, it doesn't. Though a Shardblade, used for a long time, will change shape slightly.

(source)

[Bort]

Ah well, there's another theory out the window. I didn't really believe it anyways, but it was an interesting thought. I remember reading that WoB that you mention there Moogle, but I guess I had forgotten it.

[AerionBFII]

 

[32:14]

Q: The Shardblade that Dalinar had at the end of Words of Radiance, was that the Honorblade?

A: The Shardblade that Dalinar had at the end of Words of Radiance that he gave up?

Q: Yeah, that he gave up.

A: No it was not.

Q: It was not? So what happened to the Honorblade that the Herald had?

A: Nobody kno- Well, somebody knows, but it is not known to the main characters.

Q: Can I ask if uh, Hoid-

A: If Hoid knows?

Q: Yeah.

A: Hoid did not take it, but I’m not answering whether he knows.

 

From this i gleamed that it didn't just vanish or cease to exist, somebody who is not a main character has knowledge of where it is but somebody does Know. Probably a bad guy... Hoid didn't steal it but Brandon is being coy on whether he knows its whereabouts or not. 

I can only conclude that it was taken by somebody in Kholinar, one of the Heralds or a Stoneshaman.

[sanderfuss]

Perhaps the sword Dalinar had at the end of WoR was the same sword that Taln had at the end of WoK. We already ahve suggestions that the Honour Blades can change - Szeth's was plain when he wielded it, but all the Honour Blades were ornamented and fancy during the last desolation.

 

The shape of the blade could be more related to the person wielding it, and their personality. We know almost nothing about Taln's (as in, the Herald, not the madman, if indeed they are different people) personality, nor do we know about the personality of the Herald that previously owned Szeth's blade.

 

We do know, however, that a short, practical blade suits Szeth's personality as a Truthless - outcast, with nothing to live for but his honour and his punishment. No-one with Szeth's personality in this position would decorate his sword to make himself look more important.

 

Also, the Blade that Dalinar bonded, with the large, cleaver like blade fits Dalinar's personality too. Large, blunt, more like a hammer than a stiletto.

All the way through reading this thread I was thinking the exact same thing. Everyone assuming the blade Taln had at the end of WoK was an honour blade when it didn't fit the description of the rest of them at the beginning. Although Dalinar is asked to be rid of his blade to become a radiant and I presume it's because his particular blade is no different from the rest of the normal shard blades.

[Moogle]

All the way through reading this thread I was thinking the exact same thing. Everyone assuming the blade Taln had at the end of WoK was an honour blade when it didn't fit the description of the rest of them at the beginning. Although Dalinar is asked to be rid of his blade to become a radiant and I presume it's because his particular blade is no different from the rest of the normal shard blades.

 

Szeth's Honorblade changed to no longer match the description of Honorblades given at the start of TWoK. Dalinar's blade was obviously not the same one Taln had, but Taln's Blade's description does not preclude it from being an Honorblade.

[hoser]

Szeth's Honorblade was not one of the ones described at the beginning of tWoK (the ones planted in the ground do not include Jezrien's).  I am not aware of any evidence that Szeth's Honorblade changed.   Have I missed something?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Szeth's Honorblade was not one of the ones described at the beginning of tWoK (the ones planted in the ground do not include Jezrien's).  I am not aware of any evidence that Szeth's Honorblade changed.   Have I missed something?

 

i think the assumption is that both Jezrien and Kalak's blades match the other 7 described as "works of art". it could be the case that either of them were more plain by design of their wielders. 

 

One thought I had, sparked by this renewed discussion... Shardblades were "made in imitation of honorblades", as we have learned from Syl. The WoB that Moogle noted above talks about a dead sprenblade changing form over a long time. But we have seen Syl and Pattern (to a lesser degree) changing form very freely with the thoughts of their bonded KR. If Honorblades are the pattern for Shardblades, then it is possible, that like a living Shardblade, an Honorblade can freely shift form to conform to the wielder's thoughts and needs. Szeth may not even have realzied that it was possible and he always expected it to be a sword, therefore it always retained its sword like shape. If someone else were bonded and wielding it, it might lengthen or change based on their thoughts and needs. 

 

Just another possibility in this giant guessing game...

Edited February 13, 2015 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Moogle]

Szeth's Honorblade was not one of the ones described at the beginning of tWoK (the ones planted in the ground do not include Jezrien's).  I am not aware of any evidence that Szeth's Honorblade changed.   Have I missed something?

 

As Green Hoodie Mistborn said, sanderfuss was saying Taln's Blade didn't match the description of the Honorblades at the start, which were all described as super ostentatious and works of art. I was just adding that Jezrien's in the hands of Szeth didn't as well. We know through WoB that Shardblades change shape slightly over time, and it has been a long, long time since the Honorblades were given up. I could definitely see Jezrien's Blade having changed shape, as I doubt a king would have gone for a short, plain Blade. Not confirmed by any means, but I definitely phrased things poorly.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Moogle

[hoser]

We know that dead sprenblades can change, as they adapted to gems.  It makes some sense, as the spren revive somewhat when recalled. Live sprenblades can take a variety of forms.  Do we have any support for Honorblades changing?  It is an interesting question.  The Honorblades presumably have more investiture, but they don't seem to have the same "life" that spren do.  Are Honorblades sentient?

 

There are different ways to read these tea leaves.  If the other Heralds have fancy blades, I could totally see their leader having a simple elegant blade.  I could see the Herald of war known for his stubbornness having a spike.  I could also see that the blades became simpler over time away from their Heralds.  If they did become simpler, would they become ornate again in the hands of their Heralds?  There are so many possibilities. 

 

As far as I know, there is no evidence supporting the idea that Jezrien's blade changed.  If I'm missing something, I apologize and would love to see it, as I am often wrong.  This is not to say that it didn't change.  It just seems like an unsupported theory at this point. 

 

I have no problem with unsupported theories and arguing for them.  I do think that we should be clear that that is what we are doing when we do it. 

 

I also expect more from someone with your knowledge in your position.  When you say:

"Szeth's Honorblade changed to no longer match the description of Honorblades given at the start of TWoK."

It looks like you are stating the Honorblade changing as fact.  Given that you are a moderator and a "Tarachin Superstar," I fear people will think that it is more than an unsupported theory. 

 

Likewise when you say (emphasis added):

... the description of the Honorblades at the start, which were all described as super ostentatious and works of art.

The use of "all" seems misleading to me, as the description is of only seven blades, excluding Taln's and Jezrien's. 

 

Please don't be offended by my nitpicking.  I totally respect the enormous contributions you have made, and I want to emphasize that I do not consider this a big deal. 

[Moogle]

There are different ways to read these tea leaves.  If the other Heralds have fancy blades, I could totally see their leader having a simple elegant blade.

 

This is certainly possible, but why would his Blade be shorter than the average Shardblade? This is not something I'd expect a priori. A longer Blade means you're better at killing thunderclasts and the like. Jezrien was supposed to be about protecting, so I doubt he'd cripple himself on purpose. This of course assumes the Heralds had some input on what their Blades were to look like - but if they didn't have that kind of input, they should all look similar, no?

 

I also note the Windrunner Honorblade's hilt has a clear illustration in WoK and also on the Surgebinding chart. This is strong evidence to me that the Windrunner Honorblade was originally much more ostentatious. Vorinism may have gotten the illustration wrong or misleading, it's true, except that Kaladin starts putting out a symbol that matches that description out on his own at the end of WoR. (I completely forgot to mention this as well. My bad.)

 

II also expect more from someone with your knowledge in your position.

 

I stated things poorly in general, as I acknowledged in my last post in this thread. Not declaring it was merely speculation was a mistake on my part. I am normally better than that. I am convinced that what I said is very likely true, but I recognize that the arguments that convinced me may not convince others. I should have stated it was speculation on my part and backed it up more thoroughly. I apologize.

 

The use of "all" seems misleading to me, as the description is of only seven blades, excluding Taln's and Jezrien's. 

 

I disagree here. Green Hoodie Mistborn's post before me clearly talks about only seven Honorblades being described, and I had referred to his post when I was talking about it. You'd have to somehow ignore his post (right above mine) and only read mine (and then ignore the part where I refer to his post being correct for clarifying what I meant) for my phrasing there to be misleading. I could have done better here however and mentioned the number seven myself, however. I'll be sure to be more careful in the future.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Moogle

[hoser]

Thanks for your thoughtful addressing of my concerns!

This is certainly possible, but why would his Blade be shorter than the average Shardblade? This is not something I'd expect a priori. A longer Blade means you're better at killing thunderclasts and the like. Jezrien was supposed to be about protecting, so I doubt he'd cripple himself on purpose. ...

As far as I can tell, this is another oft-repeated canard that it bothers me to see from experienced Sharders.

I believe the notion that it is shorter is a misinterpretation of the following (Prologue of tWoK):

His Shardblade was long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others.

The blade is specifically described as long, suggesting it may even be longer than some.  Apparently, it is not as thick, not as wide or both.  Having seen the blade illustrations in WoR, I can imagine a two-sided blade being less ornate, as the fanciful shapes of the Sprenblades often seem to be single-edged forms (although since they can change shape, they can take two sided forms, or maybe they have edges on the weird shapes). 

Please let me know if I have erred in this, as I have so often in other matters. 

[Blaze1616]

There is WoB that Jezrien's is smaller. I read it earlier today. I will edit with the link and quote when I find it again.

 

Edit: source

Question

Is Szeth's sword noticeably smaller than other shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

I would also like to note that this WoB is the reason I personally believe the honorblades change appearance like Shardblades do, for the reasons Moogle pointed out. It is obviously not specifically stated, but as Moogle said, it is simply illogical to have a short blade and handicap one's self.

 

Edit 2: I misread your post. I guess the "small" aspect could be in reference to width, but I've always been under the impression it meant length, as huge swords were Brandon's inspiration for Shardblades.

 

Edit 3: For completion's sake, there is this WoB about the blade's size as well.

 

source

astalduath

After reading The Way of Kings, I couldn't help but to wonder this: hypothetically if there were two equally skilled combatants in every way, one armed with a Shardblade and the other with a Lightsaber, and take magic and the Force out of the equation (except for the weapons themselves), who would win? And yes, the Shardblade would have already been summoned and the two are just squaring off in a dual. Have fun with it.

Brandon Sanderson

A lightsaber is actually a little more easy to wield than a Shardblade, I would guess. Shardblades were designed to fight something larger than another person; you don't actually need all of that size when fighting someone. So that gives a slight edge to you average Jedi. If it's someone like Szeth, who has a more modestly sized Blade, then I don't honestly know.

Emphasis mine.

 

Personally, I don't see how having a wider blade would make fighting something larger than you easier. Only extra length would do that.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Blaze1616

[hoser]

No offense, but ...

Executive summary:

Smaller: yes, supported by text and WoB

Shorter: contradicted by text (it is "long"), unsupported speculation, reasons

[Curiosity]

I'm guessing that the Honorblades, while they may be able to change form, don't do it quickly, given that

WoR

Szeth reacts so strongly to Syl changing into a spear instantaneously during the fight above the Oathgate. 

 

Oh. That’s right. You probably want me to be a spear, don’t you?

The weapon fuzzed to mist, then elongated and grew into the shape of a silvery spear, with glowing, swirling glyphs along the sharpened sides of the spearhead.

Szeth twisted in the air, Lashing himself back into a hovering position. He looked at the spear, then seemed to tremble. “No. Truthless. I am Truthless. No questions.

 

Before this, he was insisting that Kaladin must have another one of the Honorblades, but... that obviously wasn't true.