Elena

1) From the coppermind wikia "It is extremely rare for a darkeyed soldier to rise higher than the rank of squadleader" - using WoK chapter 47 as a reference. In that chapter Kaladin thinks that the only way for him to get any higher in rank would be going to the Plains, where he presumably would command a bigger/better trained force of darkeyes. Also from WoK we know that 'citizen officers' are squadleaders and sergeants, so darkeyes who have attained sufficient military rank to be considered first or second nahn. (I have no idea whether someone like Kaladin who started out second nahn would've bumped up a nahn after becoming squadleder. Most of what we know about the Alethi rank system comes from a WoB that focused on dahn rathern than nahn.) So from what we know in the book, sergeant/squadleaders are as high up as a darkeye can get, and Kaladin couldn't have gone any higher. 2) Given the above 'both sergeants and squadleader are citizens' (from WoK chapter 46) we're not exactly told if/which one is higher than the other. For all we know they could even be two ranks corresponding to different chains of commands but the new Oathbringer chapter changes things somewhat. From what Kaladin tells Syl in this chapter, about emplyoing an 'old sergeant trick' we could assume he has been a sergeant. This means he was promoted from sergeant to squadleader, and squadleader was as high up as he could go; this would make squadleader the higher rank. We know his being later promoted to captain is an exceptional event, and Jenet the stablemaster in WoR makes it clear she has never heard of a darkeyed captain before. Maybe there are other 'unofficial' ways for a darkeye to climb up in the ranks, maybe having some important, rare skills - like the darkeyed scout of Dalinar's that Shallan mention being well respected. But as a rule darkeyes can't be officers. EDIT: as @Fulminato pointed out, Dallet was Kal's sergeant. So squadleader is definitely higher 3) Again from WoK, we get this line "Elhokar had inherited the throne, and Dalinar, by right, had taken the Kholin Princedom as his own". This suggests Gavilar was King as well as Highprince, which makes sense considering that Gavilar was Highprince before being King. We also learn that "That left Elhokar without land that was specifically his own. He tended to act like a highprince of the Kholin Princedom", which could support the idea that Gavilar was both Highprince and King since if he hadn't been then he too would have done the same - nominally being King only, but administering the Kholin princedom as well - and Adolin would have been used to this dynamic and wouldn't have remarked on it like he does in this chapter. Also I can't imagine Gavilar settling himself for a cerimonial role only; I don't think he would've given up the princedom. What might have happened was that in the later years of his kingdom he'd become more and more interest in other things (exploring the Plains and so on) that he left the running of the Kholin lands to Dalinar and made him heir to the princedom. So Adolin would've grown up seeing his father as de facto Highprince and this is why he's annoyed now that Elhokar is taking back these powers, if not in name then in practice. However! We should remember that all this information is from the very first scenes we get on the Kholins, so it could be that Adolin's thoughts were only a way for Brandon to get some exposition in and shouldn't be taken as absolute truth. I don't think that what we learn here re: Kholin dynamics is ever mentioned again - if anything, we get told many times that Dalinar is the one usurpating Elhokar's authority more often than not. So I really would wait until we get all of Dalinar's flashbacks before thinking we know the answer to this question (Unless of course this is explained somewhere else and I missed it )

I saw his drunk moods more about feeling self-pitying after he heard his own guards call him a bad king/ implying nobody really cares about him than "wanting to be an object of worship". The last time we saw him before the assasination attempt he was asking Kaladin to teach him how to become a beloved leader, in a very sulky, very roundabout way. Kaladin, a darkeyed soldier, told him that yes, he is a bad king. Elhokar's answer? "Well, I did ask". When Kaladin rescues him from Graves and Moash and tells him he is doing it because Elhokar keeps trying even if he always screws up, Elhokar thaks him. That doesn't sound particularly arrogant to me; it sounds like he got knocked down a peg or two and may begin to learn from his mistakes. I'm not saying Elhokar is going to turn humble all of a sudden but acting like his only concern is being a hero and doesn't care about becoming an effective king is a disservice to his character. Maybe it's just me, but I am always a bit shocked when people go 'this character is obviously minor, they haven't any room for growth'. Guys. This is a ten-books saga. We're a fifth into it. We don't know anything about what is going to happen and where the characters are going, especially in terms of characterization and development. Remember how Mat Cauthon was a dick in early WOT? I couldn't have cared less about him and didn't get why other characters did. Or for ASOIAF readers: Jaime Lannister got a helluva lot of character development with his POV, and it was great. I really, really don't get the point of thinking a minor character will not evolve for no other reason that because he is a minor character. Minor characters are the backbone of sagas as much as the worldbulding is, they give flavour to the story and work best when they have a personality, not a set of characteristics set in stone. If Elhokar remains the exact same for the next 3 books, that'd be bad writing. Moash is also a minor character, and yet he got his own arc even as the focus was on Kaladin - it's not hard to do, and I am definitely expecting one for Elhokar as well. It doesn't have to necessarily make him a better person, but neither will be the monochromatic villainization some people seem to expect.

I'm about 95% sure they disappeared. All the isolated Parshmen who couldn't havr hoped to survive after taking on an entire town are probably hiding and regrouping somewhere, learning how to use lightning This is beautiful.

I don't think we know enough to guess on Mara's Radianthood one way or the other, but Tien being dead doesn't mean Syl couldn't have been referring to him, since she is aware of things that happened when Kal lived in Hearthstone, way before they bonded. She says that bit about the voice two paragraphs after saying she remembers Kaladin's parents, so Tien being dead is not necessarily a deal breaker. Still, I assume she'd just straight up said 'Tien' if she'd meant him, since Kaladin has thought of him often enough I am assuming Syl would be able to identify him in her memories. She likely means something/ someone else.

Ups for this, I totally agree. Seconded (well, thirded) so much. It's the most self-aware he's ever been

Sorry, got there first ....but in all seriousness, why aren't more people freaking out at Kaladin's fashionista side coming out to play? You just know he was curious to find out what the fuss was all about with Adolin's fashion booklets, so he read them all the while telling himself he was being a Good Bodyguard and protecting Adolin from... something. I just really want him and Adolin to start criticizing Amaram's style like they're in Mean Girls. I'm sorry, the more I think about it the more I snicker

As @scifan pointed out above, I think (hope?) he's going to get arrested and put someplace more private where he can have a conversation with Roshone, his parents, or both. That's mostly because of the social implication of carrying a Shadblade: it would immediately change him, even in the eyes of his parents. I think a moment like that shouldn't be a rushed/public spectacle, and from a writing standpoint it's easier to write (and read!) a 'big reveal' happening in front of four people rather than fifty, because it makes it easy to render more nuances. Then again it may go a completely different way, but I don't think we're at the point in the story arc where a 'big scene' is due.

It definitely sounds like a slavery-worthy offence considering how rigid the Vorin class system is, which makes Kal's subsequently flat delivery of 'Yes' and his punching Roshone HILARIOUS to picture because 1) you can bet he wasn't expcting that and 2) everyone around them is going to massively freak out. I don't expect any real consequences (though I'm hoping Kaladin won't pull a Shardblade out of thin air in one perfect moment of crowning glory because that feels... too easy, too fanfiction-y and kinda like a cop out) but the immediate aftermath is going to have a lot of screaming, definitely. I can't wait.

I adore this and I'd love to read it, but also... Roshone has a wooden foot, his skin looks like melted wax, and he doesn't know how to dress. Can't wait for him to drop dead and free Laral already!

See, I wish I could be this optimistic, but the Mistborn epigraphs gave me trust issues

I immediately thought the same thing, then decided that since Jasnah is sounding so obvious now ('heretic') then she's probably not it. The reminders that the book should not exist. It's addressed to the women reading this, which sounds odd to me. Sure, women read, but they read to men. Books are not intended for one gender only; men have dictated books and men have had books read to them. Both gender consume reading material albeit in different ways, and it is such an accepted fact of Voring culture that it seems so odd to remark on it in such a 'sharp' way, so early into the book. This remarks makes me think the writer is overly conscious of gender roles, wants to drive home the point that is women who read. We know most books in Voring countries aren't addressed to a general (male and female) audience; this is why scribes leave notes and commentary for each other. So I am almost certain that the writer must be a man. To make an example - I live in an overwhelmingly majority Catholic country. Priests are men and that is a fact. It's an universal thruth - much like Vorin women reading and writing, really. If you walk into a church it will be a man giving the sermon. I don't even think about it nor I comment on it because it is obvious to me. Someone from another country with different religious demographics may remark on it. Someone wishing to challenge this fundamental Church norm would probably remark on it as well. That particular turn of phrase, to me, sounds A LOT as if a man had wrote it. It's driving home the point that women are the custodians of the written word in a way a woman likely wouldn't, because it'd be superfluous otherwise. It's saying 'I'm here, I'm writing this book even though I should not, get used to it'. It's a challenge. It also explains the heretic bit, definitely. A man who learned how to write would immediately be branded an heretic, and you know Dalinar is well on his way to heresy already.

YES! Also his grand introduction - a man from the capital, haughty and refined. Now Kaladin sees him from what he is, a small fish and a petty bully. Speaking of, I'm curious about Laral - I'm assuming she'll show up in the next chapter. I've always liked her a lot, and I hope being married to Roshone and at such a young age didn't mess her up too much.

Also very random: I have not seen nearly enough reaction at Kal's remark about Roshone's coat. Adolin sure would be proud

This was, by far, the most satisfying thing I've ever read. What I'm taking from this passage is that there's hope for Moash yet. Kaladin mentions him twice (once in his thoughts, once out loud), thinks of what happened to Moash's family and not once of the fact that Moash tried to kill him. He thinks of him as his friend first and as a betrayer second - I'm guessing he sees him as someone who ended up way over his head and did stupid things because of hatred and thirst for revenge, something Kal definitely can relate to an extent, given his own storyline in WoR, both with Amaram and in the assasination plot. He sounds like he would forgive Moash if he showed himself worthy of forgiveness. I've never particularly cared much for Moash as a character beside thinking his story was rather tragic, but this reads to me like the narrative is setting up some possible redemption arc.

Agreed on this for the most part, but one bit of the "Gavilar was a martyr" theory I really like was that @Nicrosil suggested he could be bond to a spren. I don't personally believe that's the case, but I do think *someone* was probably orchestrating the whole thing behind the scenes - or else why did Szeth get into the hands of the Parshendi right as they needed him? Sounds like too big a coincidence to be one. Maybe it was the rogue Herald who made sure the assasination could happen exactly as it did, making sure Gavilar couldn't possibly have survived and giving a terrifying demonstration of Surgebinding all in one. Also I may have missed this from early in the thread but: has anyone considered that maybe the Weeper (Szeth's previous owner) may have been involved somehow? Maybe as an early Surgebinder, maybe as an other Herald?

Dont Judge me Elena but im guilty of saying this. I think i've written this exactly Haha. This sounds like something Kaladin would say tbh

This is more of a general comment than directed to anyone in particular, but here it goes: as someone who enjoys all characters involved in different ways, I really hate the amount of character bashing that goes on in most discussions of this nature. I'm not saying it's particularly blatant or anything, but there must be a different way to say "I don't find Adolin interesting" than building an entire character narrative on how he must certainly be going evil and can't be forgiven, not ever; and I am sure there's a way to say "I'm not into Kaladin as a character" that doesn't involve making arguments that can be miscostructed as "you can't have depression and be in a fulfilling romantic relationship at the same time". Again, this is not directed to anyone here or even referring specifically to the discussion that took place in this specific thread as opposite to all the other threads or websites where I've seen discussed this particular relationship. I just want to say that, personally, the reason why I'm perfectly fine with the idea of a love triangle is that I don't believe Brandom would let the ~romantic narrative~ cheapen one of the characters involved, reduce them to a monodimensional list of traits, or generally make one of the characters look worse than they are so that the other two can be together, which is sadly something that does tend to happen in fandom discussions. At risk of sounding terribly obnoxious: can't we focus the discussion on why we want some characters to be together rather than on why the other pairing would never work? *runs back and hides into own lurking cave, hoping no one's offended*

They're described as 'tan' during the scene in the Plans where Kaladin and Shallan end up falling in the chasms, and get progressively lighter. At one point Kaladin notices they're the same colour as Amaram's eyes, and pretty much calls him a lighteye to his face to upset him. I really don't see how you can be certain about something that's mostly speculation. Someone like Renarin or anyone else who gets their Shards from a family member hasn't earned them either, but they're not somehow lesser Shardbearers. Also, Alethi culture seems to be pretty practical when it comes to this kind of stuff - it doesn't matter how you got the huge, six-foot-long mystical killing weapon; all that matters is that you have it, and you're feared accordingly. Yes, we don't know what the popular reactions to the Radiants returning is going to be, but we do know that Dalinar is the most powerful of the Highprinces as things currently stand, and his side can offer immediate protection against the Parshmen-turned-Voidbringers and can boast of having killed the man who's been murdering world leaders by the dozen. Considering all of this, is highly likely Surgebinders will be seen as having a good standing among the Alethi elite, which is all that matters for the purposes of this discussion.

Not on Roshar though. We've seen how their genetics works differently (Adolin's anime hair being a prime exmple) and Moash's eyes did change after he bonded his Blade, to the point that he has to darken them with Graves's eye drops by the end of the book to pass for a darkeye.

I just saw someone speculating on reddit a way to revive a dead spren/Shardblade based on that scene in WOR where Kaladin touches Relis Ruthar's blade and they can both hear the screams of the spren trapped inside, Kal because he's a Radiant and Relis because Kaladin acted as a sort of 'channel'. I remember the OP of that particular post speculating whether that could be a method used to revive a spren/blade: a Radiant acting as a sort of 'bridge' for someone else to contact the spren and potentially bring it back. And if someone can be said to have a special connection to their Blade, that's definitely Adolin.

Ah, got it. Is there a recent topic on Helaran? Because I have Things to say about this, and we could move the conversation there. Anyway my stance on the post is that I really, really love Kaladin/Shallan because their interactions were gold, but I'd take them even as bickering friends if Brandon goes that way, because I just want to see them have scenes together. Shallan/Adolin is also good - not particularly entertaining, but cute - and I find the relationship between Adolin and Kaladin really well done in its development, so I just can't help seeing endless potential in this 'love triangle' thing whatever side I look at it from. My only issue with the trope is that often character development is sacrificed in favour of the romantic plot, but I have high hopes that in this case whatever romance happen will serve to enhance the characters instead.

Amaram's people talked about checking in the body in the last Kaladin flashback chapter, even in details (the face was ruined, etc.) which probably means his body was disposed of right after. I know there's a theory going around that Helaran was a surgebinder, but even if he was it seems overly difficult for him to fake a death while leaving behind a body. (In vaguely related topic I am really looking forward to the particular Shallan/Kaladin scene where she realizes it was him, not Amaram, who killed Helaran.)

Hi guys, this is kind of random, but I was lurking on an old thread about Kaladin's return to Heartstone (x) where I read that "Brandon has read another Kaladin's chapter or perhaps it was the same one but it lasted longer" all the way to Kal apparently reuniting with his parents. Anyone has a transcript/video of that reading? I haven't seen it linked on the main post, though I may have missed it.

It seems to me Mr T. came up with the 'Regrowth' lie because he's aware that actual Radiants can heal themselves from Shardblade wounds, even if they don't possess Regrowth and can't heal others. Honorblades don't let you do that unless your Blade gives you Regrowth. Also he probably guessed based on the surges Szeth said Kaladin displayed. As for Helaran, I found that line really interesting. I'm assuming Taravangian meant that he was aware of Helaran being the member of a secret society, not a Surgebinder (he was, after all a Shardbearer). But did he know that back during Way of Kings, when Shallan was around? Also, do we know to which secret society Helaran belonged to? I've seen people assuming he worked with Nalan, but is that ever spelled out in the books? The Sons of Honor are out, and IDK how likely it is that he was in the same society as his father, so another possibility might be him being a (maybe renegate) member of the Diagram. Maybe that's why Mr T. knows about him.

I like this a lot. Also what really makes Kaladin's imprisonment so bad for him is how powerless he feels trapped in the small cell especially after he's experienced flying - the ultimate freedom.