Elena

About Kaladin and Shards: he sees Blades, unchecked, as instruments of death. He sees Shardbearers as people who have no regard for human life, and kill men like flies. He also doesn't want to become a lighteyes, and he associates the worst characteristics of lighteyes with Blades - the arrogance, selfishness and uncaring in killing instead of protecting. But I would say his main hangup (leaving Syl aside) with the Shardblades is in what they DO and what that implies about people who carry them, not just that they make you lighteyed. In his opinion, Shardbearers as a category exemplify the worst of lighteyes.

I completely agree with you that poorly done, ~dramatic depictions of people with mental disorders are harmful and offensive. I think Brandon takes more care than that. One thing though: we don't know yet what Shallan has. Also, her situation ia different than it would be IRL, so i don't think we're going to see a perfect 1:1 depiction of an existing disorder. In real life, people don't have magic powers of illusion that help them construct different identities, further feeding the delusion. BS probably took that into account, but I bet he did extensive research and likely had a beta reader to consult. Also - if one of Shallan's soon to be many personas 'took over', I don't think it would be something as tacky and Hollywood as Brightness Radiant becoming an independent personality and ~turning on Shallan, or whatever. Not only that would have awful implications, as you yourself said, but it's just very cheesy. I don't know what exactly @OathKeeper meant, but I took that 'Take over and lock Shallan up' to mean that there is a reasonable possibility that she'll end up 'delegating' more and more unpleasant tasks/states of mind she doesn't want to deal with to one of the personas, leaving 'Shallan' nearly powerless and trapped by her own fears. I'm picturing this possibility as a sort of behavioural trap, with Shallan unable to break the reflex of slipping into another non-Shallan personality every time she's required to do something, so that the personas go from being a protection mechanism to being a prison. I personally believe the climax for her arc will include a crisis situation where Shallan will need to do something important without having the time/ the opportunity to call upon another persona (maybe because she's powerless, like Kaladin when he protected Elhokar), so I can see something like what I described above happening. Not a real 'takeover' of Shallan's mind, but a trap of her own making.

Adolin's revived Edgedancer spren is going to explain everything about it

That's actually a very interesting point. Dalinar immediately post-oath only hears his blade scream after he summons it, and Renarin too seems to hear the screams only when he's actually holding the Blade. Do we know where the dead Blade spren 'go' when they are dismissed?

I think Kaladin's next oath will have something to do with leadership, the other Windrunner attribute - we haven't seen any oaths about that yet

I'm sorry for being so nitpicky bit actually... I'm pretty sure most people will agree with me that the fandom was never particularly pro-Shalladin (it's even in the first post and nobody else felt the need to disagree with it so far). I signed up immdiately after WOR came out, and everything I said comes from threads I have read and not impressions I formed later. That's not even counting the boards at Tor and reddit, or the fact that just yesterday people felt the need to put the possibility of this relationship among the things that should never happen in OB. It's always been pretty close between people who actually 'shipped' each, but the amount of people who felt the need to go out of their way to repeat how awful love triangles are is really pretty big, and very vocal. Again, sorry to nitpick but this is exactly what I meant when I said that a sizeable portion of Adolin fans/Shadolin shippers feels the need to support the narrative that Adolin/Shadolin is an unpopular character/ship and doesn't have many fans. That's not the case.

I don't think it's going to be as overt as that. I definitely see Shallan killing hsr parents as something Adolin will be upset by, but I don't think it will be on a conscious level - he'll probably tell her he's sorry that happened to her, and they'll go on with their lives thinking it's solved. Then he'll start feeling uneasy about it, and Shallan may notice his changed attitude. I expect something similar will happen when (if?) Shallan finds out about Sadeas; she'll be fine on the surface, but feel annoyed that he didn't tell her sooner.

That is fabulous I actually love to hear people speaking Romanian (my best friend in high school spoke it at home) even though I don't understand a thing. Yay for very similar sayings! Pretty much all of this, really. I love Adolin, he should reimain a major point of view and have cool plots, he's not evil, but he's also not persecuted. Because it is, and remains, a huge issue. Kaladin killed Shallan's brother. That's not the same thing as Shallan and her parents, which is her own business, or Adolin and Sadeas which is his. When Shallan and Adolin learn about each other's deeds they will reconsider their opinion of each other to some extent. When Shallan learns that Kaladin killed Helaran she will be heartbroken, and take it personally. This is her business, and will shook her to the core beyond just influencing her opinion of Kaladin. I wrote above about how this won't necessarily be a deal-breaker, but it's still huge and very, very painful - and a bigger deal than denial and lack of communication. It doesn't mean the ship is dead on arrival but. It'll be very messy for a while.

Yes pretty much I used to be chill with it because I believe romance will be minor, but having read Mistborn Era 2 I think it will genuinely be great. He's improved a lot with the romantic (and comedy) stuff. Also absolutely not and I apologize too! I hope we'll all be satisfied with the book if we don't spontaneusly combust first

ETA: I messed up the quotes :/ @eveorjoy I did say 'I'm sure that was not the intention', but this is what you wrote Once again, I do get what you meant. But as you said yourself, the Shalladin relationship gets A LOT of truly unnecessary crap. I don't think I have ever seen a Shallan/Kaladin thread that did not immediately have someone barging in to say 'this is why it's a bad idea', with the people against always outnumbering those in favour. It gets routinely brought up with negative connotations pretty often - the recent 'what you don't want to see in OB' being an example, but there are dozens - by contrast, I've hardly ever seen someone bring up Shalladin in a positive way in a thread that was not specifically about shipping or the OB chaptes threads. Heck, it took until the OB chapters were released for the fandom at large to admit that yes, there might be something there - up to a few months ago the consensus was that shippers were reading too much into it and a love triangle would never happen becausd Shallan reminds Kaladin of Tien and whatnot. People who like Shalladin had to fight just to get acknowledgement of the fact that the relationship is a real possibility and not a collective delusion. All those 'Brandon would never do that' feel patronizing after a while. So in light of this, when someone names a thread 'Shalladin isn't that bad an idea' and begins with 'So, Shalladin shippers have it hard', but then goes on to explain that the reason why the dreaded Shalladin isn't really that bad is because it will make Shadolin stronger, there is no harm in a filtration that lasts a few chapter and Shalladin is doomed anyway... You can't fault people for getting a bit piqued and think Shalladin (and Kal especially) are being used as a prop. That's not what you meant, and rereading the post a couple of times there are phrases that make it clear that you're not dismissin Kaladin's progression, but t'she wording (especially the bolded bits) have an implication of 'the reason why this controversial ship is fne it because it can really help this other popular ship'. It's great to know you also want good character development all around and I hope my previous post didn't come across as annoying/ a personal attack, but I hope that now my reasons for writing what I did are clearer. Moving on! About Helaran. Now, I think it's clear that I want Shalladin to happen and that I don't really care which direction is going to go as long as it's satisfying, but I don't think the relationship is dead on arrival because of Helaran. It is a huge blow, more important than a lot of Shalladin shippers acknowledge, but not necessarily The End 1) Shallan has already acknowledged that Helaran's death was on Helaran. She heard the account of what he did in battle. Her first reaction was of hate for Amaram, but she grew to understand that he did die in battle - one where he didn't conduct himself honourably. When she and Kaladin will talk about it, he'll probably give her a more detailed account. As things stand, if Kal and Shallan talked about it she will probably be able to be civil, even friendly after some time, with Kaladin. But I can see why she wouldn't want a relationship with the killer of her beloved brother. But she will realize that 2) Helaran failed Shallan. He failed his family. Balat says it at some point; Helaran left and didn't look back. He was a Shardbearer, he could have put his Blade in the Highprince's service, gained lands of his own in exchange and taken care of his family. He didn't. He left them with their father, a man he believed to be a murderer, because whatever he was doing was more important. Shallan never acknowledged that because she is very attached to her memories/ idealized her brother, but she will at some point. There is also the fact of who exactly Helaran was working for and what he was trying to accomplish. It may have been the Skybreakers, or not. She might meet the Skybreakers and hate them. she might find out her brother's plan and disagree. Either ways, I think she is going to reconsider her opinion to Helaran to some extent - may be a little, may be a lot - and of Helaran's death in light of her killing her mother. I don't necessarily think this will lead to her forgiving Kaladin to the point that she's comfortable being in a relationship with him, and it would be difficult to write were that the case, but I think that Kaladin's actions don't automatically mean that they could never work out.

You know, I've had the same exact thought recently. As someone who joined up right after WOR (when everyone still hated the prospect of Shalladin but for 'we want no silly triangles' reasons), then posted/lurked for a bit and went away completely for a year and a half, this shift is really interesting to see. This has definitely been my impression, both on here and on the Tor.com comment section. That said I don't believe Adolin is more popular, it's just that has a more vehement fanbase. As someone suggested above, it's probably because Adolin fan (of which I am one) were getting tired of the 'Adoin is gonna go eeeeeevil' conspiracy. That said, one thing that really baffles me about the current conception of the character is the sense of... can I say victimism? (sorry can't find a better suited English word!) that I see in a lot of the discussions. The current fandom depiction of Adolin is as a character is of someone who has it bad both in-universe and among the fandom; most readers don't care about him, Brandon doesn't care about him, Dalinar prefers Elhokar to his own son, and so on. A lot of posts reference that, even when it's not related to the discussion going on. And as someone who really likes Adolin... is great that he's getting so much love but, as mentioned, I'm a bit puzzled. People act like he's both a very niche character who only 17 people like, instead of one of the main viewpoints, but also like he should be a main character and anything else is a disservice. That said, I love reading about Adolin so I'm happy he's getting all this space in discussions. But the tone is a bit odd. This so much. Can we keep this thread around and come back to it every Tuesday? I used to think I had what it takes to be a shipper (I'm on tumblr and everything) but apparently I know nothing. That said, I agree with @Starlathat the premise of the original post does a disservice to Kaladin's character. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the intention, but saying 'Shalladin is fine because it will make Shadolin better in the long run' throws Kaladin's character development under the bus for the sake of furthering Shallan and Adolin's relationship. Can't we just say 'this tangled romantic situation is good because it's going to lead to character growth for all involved'? Yes, Shallan is traumatized, but Kaladin is traumatized too, arguably just as much, and he deserves better than to be a prop for someone else's character development while not getting any support himself. So I hope they will not 'flirt for a few chapters' then stop, because for someone with the sort of issues Kaladin has the simple fact of acknowledging (lighteyed) Shallan in a romantic sense means making himself pretty vulnerable. If they do go there, it'd better be a real relationship, not a flirtation, no matter how long or short, and be a positive development for both characters involved. 'Shallan loved Adolin all along' is... something I don't believe either the story or the characters need. You can get a romantic Shallan/Adolin endgame in some other way. @mariapapadia PLEASE tell me you meant 'fra i due litiganti, il terzo gode'

Or Brandon could just take a leaf from RJ's book and have Shallan pull a Rand al'Thor and marry both. No more of this silly love triangle nonsense.

What a terrible shame this isn't that kind of novel

I can see this! I do think Shallan is going to get in deep with the Ghostbloods, get in trouble (much like Kaladin conspiring with Moash in WOR) do some more soul-searching, perhaps some more identity shattering, and finally leave the society. I mostly thought her conflict would be between being Veil of the Ghostbloods and her loyalty to Jasnah when she came back, but it could also be the case that she's forced to go against Adolin in some way.

Also how will Kaladin react? Assuming they actually make it there, of course. This plotline sounds almost too beatiful to be true.

Odium's champion Adolin. Or evil Adolin, period. Nah

Hiii! Welcome Have an upvote! I personally don't agree. Adolin was a wreck over Sadeas's death from his own point of view - Shallan may think he's perfectly alright, but she can be self absorbed. That said, I think killing Sadeas was the best thing Adolin could have done and his family is currently in a strong enough position they can weather the fallout should he be discovered. Which I hope he won't because I don't believe he should face punishment for Sadeas's death, especially not when most main characters have done worse. That said: I hope you'll stick around. And as a fellow ESL speaker, you're doing great

I do also think it sounds rather ominous, but in all fairness... they're young. They're inexperienced with relationships. They can't promise each other more than they know how to give, but they don't know that. I'm pretty sure most young couples at one point or another think they can take on the world together, and we can't fault them for having high hopes about their relationship.

I know it's been said already, but this Brightness Radiant thing is potentially scary as hell. The implications (for Shallan and her mental health) are... not nice. She basically created a whole new personality for herself to be her 'public' face, which means she's going to use it more and more. Brightnes Radiant is how the public sees her, so it's what she will be when she walks around the city. Brightness Radiant was inspired by Jasnah, so it's who will be in attendance when Shallan needs to fill Jasnah's place in meetings with Dalinar. Brightness Radian is not scared to handle her Blade, so it's who Shallan will become every time Adolin suggests they practice - which looks like it will happen quite a lot, as Adolin doesn't think anything is wrong and enjoys doing something he likes with Shallan. But the more I think about all the ways Shallan will find to use her new fearless Radiant persona, the scarier it sounds for the Shallan underneath.

I've always thought their all walking away meant they were all rejecting the Nahel bond and their role as Radiants. Maybe there are unintentional ways to break the bond that depend on the specific oaths, as well as a simpler 'I'm out of here' reaction where they breaking their oaths is a consequence of rejecting everything that makes them Radiants.

I actually meant that in like, a totally platonic way for once, but everything Shallan is better with Kaladin, even if just slightly better Also, I feel called out Much agreement. I'm reminded of Kaladin's line to Shallan in WOR 'Who will replace Parshmen? Darkeyes?' and I think that now that he's going through his own issues moving through the caste system, his looks actually changing to fit the system he raged so hard against for years... he's probably going to feel a lot for these Parshmen, and it can help him just as he can help them. Brandon has shown himself to be very aware of the real world implications of Roshar society, and I do trust him with this.

this reminded me: we still don't know if he's become Highprince or not.

i someone figures what is going on and gives her the support she needs

It's briefly mentioned in the first chapter we see her in - Shallan notices her fingernails and accent

Yep, this is why is ironic that she's so concerned with Adolin making an effort to overcome his bias. Shallan has a huge Shallan-shaped blindspot, but mostly when she's in Shallan mode and isn't busy being four other people