manaheim

I've probably had about 20 people read these chapters. None have reacted like this. A couple have said "Wow, that was a major change in tone from 1 to 2..." but none have had such a problem with it to either put the book down or react as folks here have. What's really odd to me is several folks here have read the previous iterations and not had this kind of response. I'm honestly at a loss.

Thanks for the comments. I don't get what you're saying with angels and saints and whatnot, but then... this is intended as a fantasy. This is by NO MEANS my take on what Heaven and Purgatory are like. Nor is it who I think Paul would be or how he would act. Nor St. Peter. Nor anyone. I don't understand the seemingly angry reactions. I don't recall people being nearly this put off in the last run through. Perhaps I should -not- post any further chapters. Again... Thanks for taking the time to read it.

Thanks guys. I completely understand what you're saying but I doubt I'll be able to change it. I've had a number of people (not everyone, but maybe 1/4) react similarly to how you are reacting. 3/4 of those people got another 2 chapters in and were like "Ok, I get it, don't change it." That may well be a fundamental problem as some may put the book down right at Ch2. My HOPE was it would be enough of a "Whoa... what the hell?!" kind of thing to keep them interested and reading along... but maybe not. *sigh* Anyway, I'll keep posting 'em up and we'll see where we get. Endurant... you're not the target audience, unfortunately. I don't say that to exclude you, but the simple fact is that anyone with strongly held beliefs is going to have a few issues with the book. I put quite a bit of effort into being respectful of Christianity, but I'm obviously and deliberately interpreting it differently to suit my needs. Though, actually, Paul may be the most extreme case of my interpretations. Still, I hope you'll stick with it. It's always interesting to hear the reactions of folks who have firmly held beliefs, since I most obviously do not fall in that camp myself. Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Much appreciated as always.

As always, thanks for reading.

OK! I put some real work into tuning up the later dialogue between Candace and Seth and I'm much happier with it. I also trimmed out a bit of Candace's internal monologue. Basically, I was just very critical about what added something, and what belabored a point already covered. There was just some residual stuff from my first draft. I really should get into the habit of a total rewrite of Ch1 for each book, but it's just SO discouraging to start over. lol Lots of other fine tunings based off some comments. Thanks again, all.

I'll have something to submit for 14th... and the 21st... and pretty much as many weeks as I can get away with before someone yells at me.

You're not the only one to comment on the onto me/into me thing, so something about it is clearly off... It's about 20%... probably enough that I need to look at it. I'll check the hitting on me thing. Maybe that's it. Watching AGOT is almost as brutal to my mind as reading the damned books. So harsh. So horrible. lol I usually have to stop after 2 episodes. Now I'm gonna go get me a donut.

Robinki... awesome feedback, thank you. And I like your donut idea far better than my biking one. And yes... I have the whole book written, actually. Though presently I'm re-tooling it to fit the changes in Seth and the changes in their relationship. I'm up to about Ch8 on this editing pass. The book is about 27 chapters. So yeah, sure, I'll definitely keep 'em coming. I had stopped last time because there were some deep fundamental issues that had to be fixed here in these early chapters before I bothered anyone with the later ones. You're not from the US, I believe, right? I think the onto/into thing may be a US phrase. "He's onto me!" (He knows I'm a bad person despite my attempt to hide it) "He's into me!" (He thinks I'm beautiful and wants me big time.) I like sketchy... much better. Thank you. That line always irked me. And glad you liked cloud of dysfunction. I was afraid that was too much. Very glad you get and like the humor in it. I want the book to have that throughout. Again, all great comments- thanks so much. I actually wound up (stupidly) watching AGOT last night instead of working on my edit, so this works out well as I can factor in your comments too. Thanks again!!!

Oh... and the good news is that it seems like a lot of the major issues have been addressed... like most of the Seth issues. A lot of the things you guys tagged were carry-overs from his old dialogue that I didn't rewrite. So... I'll go rewrite those.

Guys, I cannot thank you enough for this. I swear, I shave and I prune and I adjust and I think I've got it nailed, and then you guys call out areas where I was clearly blind to my own work. I have some ideas on how I can make some adjustments, though making it more clear that she's a bad girl may be challenging... I'm thinking of maybe having her check the expensive watch she stole from a museum or something... something like that. Not sure how that will come across. The problem is that all her being bad is behind her as of the start of this chapter. Someone suggested once that I have her start off the book doing a job, but the problem is I need to have the Seth tie-in here or the book won't work. Ugh. Anyway, seriously... thank you all. I'm gonna go for a bike ride and think about this some more and come back and work on it. I've also made a lot of changes to Ch2 and 3... would you all be interested in seeing those? If so, I'll see if I can post up 2 next week. Did I say thanks yet? lol Thanks so much.

Thanks for reading!

Silk, you're all good. I just posted that earlier this week assuming I'd be sending it out the following Monday. Thanks muchly!

hahahahahaha.... Well... you can see... my memory is pretty awful as well.

I'd like to submit if there's still room. I don't think I got anything this week. Is everyone out enjoying the summer?

bahahaha... btw, I'm incredibly impressed you can remember his name like that. I'm TERRIBLE with character names in stories, esp. when I get such a short view of them. Ok, I'll ask if I can submit this upcoming cycle. Thanks, guys! Very much appreciate the willingness, and I -think- you'll be pleased with the changes.

So... I ground my teeth over this for several weeks, spent a lot of time planning, and re-wrote significant portions of it. I've tossed it through a couple different writing groups, have polished the heck out of it, etc. I didn't cut it, because I couldn't figure out a way to setup all the things I needed to without it, but I do think I have a far better handle on Seth. SO... I'm curious... can you guys bear up under one more reading of it? I'd very much like to hear reactions (even though I cringe at what I may hear) lol

As far as the lead being reminiscent or whatever... I completely understand where you're going with that. The best advice I was ever given was you need to make your character obviously talented and obviously active in SOME way. Something as simple as him aggressively washing dishes and doing an astonishingly good job about it while showing pride in his work... sounds odd, but believe it or not, even that little bit gives us something. The other advice I've been given consistently is to avoid "navel gazing", which is just a lot of thinking about stuff. I completely understand the attraction and why folks do it, but I really would try to minimize it. Find other ways to give us that information through dialogue and plot, and ask yourself- for each thing you're telling us- do we REALLY need to know that? Do we really need to know it now? Can we find out later? Don't feel like the reader has to know everything in order to follow along. They don't. They just need to know the absolutely key bits.

This might just be me, but I found myself distracted by a fair number of "telling" sections, where you would try to fill the reader in on various bits of backstory that may or may not be immediately relevant. Each of these pretty much put the brakes on the story for me and totally threw me out, which was dissapointing because I really LOVE what's going on with the girls. Very interesting stuff, good conflict with the nasty girl, cool funky magic system, etc. A couple examples: "All blonds had their hair bleached as soon as they were born to mask any potential magic they might have. But Belili's mother had always told her she was special. She died when Kisa was born, and though Belili had been only five at the time, she still remembered her mother's words. Now she knew why. She must have a streak of brown in her hair, somewhere. Like Aricaba-Ata's new wife, brown hair would let her control earth while tasting the juice of an Apple." ^ This is another strong telling section that really breaks up the action of the story. "Despite the scuffle, the guards were still at their posts. Why? There had been noise, and usually the guards were quick to catch and beat any slave out of bounds." ^ Another. There were various other minor bits here and there, like I couldn't figure out how/why a blonde would be bleaching their hair (since they're already blonde?) but, for me, the biggest issue are the sections that were telling me rather than showing (or simply not bothering). It's best if you can show us what the characters think, do, and know from their speech and behavior and let the reader begin to develop an understanding about who they are from little bits that they pickup. Still, very interesting and an enjoyable read.

And my feedback... I'm definitely intrigued, but I think you're making a number of common mistakes in the narrative that are distracting me from fully getting into the piece. I tried to hit on the top items I think you could focus on. You have a lot of repeated words. "Flames licked the gates, bodies across the fields. Flames consumed everything, raging higher." You can fix things like this with a little variation in sentence structure. You should vary sentence length and structure. "His horse neighed in surprise. The young face was gaunt, brown eyes wide. Hair that had grown long unchecked was matted to his neck. He wiped his face with his hands. Several of the men that rode with him looked to him in concern." There is an awful lot of people looking here, then there, then here again, then there. We don't need to see every movement, and remember we're always looking where the players are, so be sure where they're looking is really important. Also, you can call out details without explicitly saying that the person looked there. In the narrative, saying something means the POV character is focused on that. You should try to simplify and cut wherever possible. It tightens the narrative and makes it easier to read. For example: "She looked up at him and managed a smile and wave from her little hand." There is no other way to wave than with the hand, so it's probably unnecessary. And we already know she is small. Another example: "Perrin nodded mutely." Cut the mutely. Unless he says something, he's being quiet. Another simplification example: "“Lord Bale wrote that he would do what he could in his letter that arrived this morning." You could cut all but "Lord Bale wrote that he would do what he could." The rest is probably you feeling like we need to know it was a letter from this morning... but write implies letter, and odds are it wasn't weeks ago, and even if it was, it's probably not important. Anything not important can, and should, be cut. Watch for adverbs and try to show rather than tell. "haggardly watching it climb." How does someone haggardly watch something? What you're doing here is trying to tell us the state of the character without having to show us. You could do something like "He rested his head in his hands and sighed. He paused, rubbed his sore legs, and stood to face the unwelcome newcomer he found in the sun." (That's actually terrible, but you see the point... I'm giving you plenty of what he is feeling (and why!) and experiencing without using an awkward word like "haggardly".) There's an awful lot of internal thought going on in here. It makes the character feel kind of whiny and inactive. In many cases, you can show us how he's thinking or feeling by his actions or dialogue. Try to trim out as much of the thought bubbles as you can. "Then the towering specks of the Triplets, lone stone peaks". How can triplets be lone? (minor, but it caught my attention) Hope this is helpful.

I know this sort of breaks convention, but I reviewed this thing and there's no thread so, durnit, I'm gonna make a thread. Not sure the forum name of this person so I just put the title. Note: I edited the thread title to include the username. - Silk

I'm going to try Robinski's trick of commenting and then reading other people's comments. Let's hope I don't embarrass myself too badly. First, this was very cool. The action was gripping, the violence was brutal without being indulgent, and Varus going into a bloodrage was awesome and disturbing. Just a few minor comments... 1. You have what appears to be a POV issue very eariy on... "His words trailed off, caught on some thought he could not quite express." This was when in Cadmia's POV. 2. There is no setting at all in the beginning, so I felt unsure of what where the characters were, and in fact what characters were present. This might be in part because we're deeper into the story, but I'd still expect at least a little setting. 3. In a couple cases you have a peculiar sentence structure that I'm not sure works, and jarred me out of the story... "Cadmia hated herself for the thought, but he looked quite ridiculous, stood speechless in the middle of his private chamber while Sepunia fussed around him, straightening his toga and tucking back imaginary strands of stray hair." standing speechless would work, though. 4. When the woman is yelling about status, you repeat the word status 5 times in the section. I understand she's speaking in frustrated tones and whatnot, but it stood out for me. 5. "'Ambush!’ Varus leapt forward, shoved Murena out of the open and wrapped himself around Cadmia as arrows rained down. One clanged off the breastplate Murena had given him". I envisioned him wrapping himself around her, which usually means she would be at his chest. I assume the breastplate is only the front piece of armor, would you want to say "backplate"? (I confess I did not go look this up to see what the proper term would be, or if it would actually be breastplate) 6. You use the word "span" instead of "spun" in two places. I dind't find any definition of "span" that worked in the context you were using it in. 7. Steel... I did go look this one up. From what I saw, the romans did have some steel, but only later in the period and even then it wasn't steel in the sense that we use it today. It also sounds like the romans were essentially unaware that what they were producing was anything other than "amazingly good iron". I didn't find anything conclusive in my ten minutes of researching, but the steel thing did catch my attention and I was like "whoa... they had steel????!" That's it. Very enjoyable read!

hahaha... well, it's not like you can ever be totally original. I have done plenty of things that I thought were pretty awesome and new, and then had someone go "Oh, it's just like XXX." Kills me. lol The best you can do is try to bring something new to the table with it.

I'm afraid my comments won't add much beyond what the illustrious folks before me have already stated, so I'll keep it brief. The "tell vs show" thing is pretty extensive, and it even shows up in the dialogue. This is distracting and really slows the story down. You can let the reader ease themselves into things. They don't need all the facts right away. It's an interesting world. I like the idea of the hair color/caste thing, though I've seen similar things done ("lighteyes"). The magic system seems pretty cool. Just overall a lot of interesting things going on, but you're going to need to clean up the show/tell stuff so we can see it. Keep at it!

Sorry I'm a little late on my feedback. Been a busy week of building VMware environments. Anyway... In summary, a lot of my comments will echo those earlier. I basically find that I am very interested in the story, but hindering my enjoyment is a number of mechanical and plot issues. The good news with that is that the story really does grab me, and I think once you fix some of these other issues that this will be really great stuff. First, I need to say something about repeated words. You're going to want to work on this. We all do it now and again, but this piece does it a lot. Example: The casket is easy to find, being the most cumbersome of the items on board. The casket 's door is mounted on hinges. I pull out my knife and slash at the wood affixed to the hinges until the hinges separate from the body of the casket, and I lift the lid off entirely. I remove a single item from my satchel and place it into the casket. It's a hefty item perhaps ten pounds in size and several hands in length, and it fits neatly into the compartment. This is what I've waited for. I can only hope that things go according to plan from here. I replace the lid on the casket and scan the area. I know this is first person present tense (which I still don't advise), but you have a repeated sentence structure that can get a little tiring. Try to vary lengths and break up how you deliver the information. Also, do you Don a satchel? That seemed odd. I check the contents of my satchel and don it before heading back to the window of the attendant's quarters. I grab ahold of the rope and scramble back onto the roof. I look out at the guest hall.[CR2] [CR1]Do you don a satchel? Watch for passive voice or non-active phrasing. I can surmise that the goods to be auctioned for tonight are ferried from deeper within the estate, through the cargo door. I wasn't sure if he was actually walking here or just looking... I follow the series of pathways that line the Bastielle estat e There are a lot of cases where you can strike a number of words to simplify the sentence. Always try to simplify sentences as it makes them easier to read. This is not to say "make them dumb" so much as it is to remove words that don't contribute anything important or new. By the way, sometimes your repeated words are cases of this. Sometimes your repeated words are lost opportunities to tell us something we didn't already know by using a different word for the same object that implies something else about the scene or character. Examples... . Some of the dirt paths sit scattered with debris. They're all dimly lit by lanterns at each point they turn or intersect [CR1] [CR1]“at each turn or intersection” Always try to simplify. The other bears a much plainer appearance[CR1] , with stone underneath, the kind of surface built for bearing heavy loads. [CR1]Too complicated. I reaffix my rope to the edge of the roof facing the carriage and lower myself to the ground. I sneak my way [CR1] to the carriage, avoiding the lanterns scattered about the estate. I can [CR1]Strike. Simplify. I lie on my back, shifting my satchel to my front [CR1] so that it rests above me on my chest. [CR1]Strike. Simplify. is damp enough for me to easily dig out, so I pull out my knife and carve myself several handholds, removing woody pulp and leaving neat grooves in the wooden beams[CR1] . [CR1]Strike. Simplify. You focus on the legs a lot when he's under the carriage. (another repeated word problem, btw). So it's legs legs legs... all as a part of the body, and then suddenly you use feet as a way of measurement, which is a little jarring. The legs [CR1] advance until they are feet away from my head [CR1]Using legs and then feet in a different way stands out. Replace feet with “short distance”. When he puts the item into the casket, he's not telling us what the item is. That's a problem in a first person perspective because you're inentionally not telling us something the POV character obviously would know all about. The whole bit with him being surprised that he's dirty struck me as off. He seems very competent and that was a pretty big oversight. Plus, I can't imagine him being THAT dirty unless the trip was long enough that it destroyed his clothes... at which point, I would think the axle would have destroyed his skin as well. Clothes are going to be tougher than skin. Also the part of him not knowing another way out seems poor planning, and the fact that he didn't instantly know he could get back out by hiding under the carriage seems silly. It was an obvious thing to me, so as a reader I was left saying "Is this guy an idiot? Come on." I would avoid having the narrator ask questions and then answer them... I scan the room, looking for an answer. Is there a window I can climb out of to get outside? [CR1] N [CR1]Don’t ask yourself questions. How am I to escape this room. [CR1] I stare up at the underside of the carriage, looking for an answer. And then, it hits me: the carriage. [CR1]Don’t ask questions. I stopped at Chapter 8 because I didn't want to keep beating on these points and make you ready to kill me. Again, I think you've got some interesting stuff here. You just need to unbury it a bit and you'll be good.

Yeah, I get that. He's pretty flat, pretty stiff. I think part of that is his actual personality. He's actually a transplant from my other book where he plays a supporting role and has time to develop and show who he is. Not so here. He needs work. Lots of it.