vikorr

In one of Dalinar's visions, a Knight Radiant and her squires were hunting one of the unmade. How were they intending to deal with the Unmade? Perhaps your theory on Dawnshards utilisation is correct/

Going back to the original post - Since the end of Words of Radiance, I always thought it obvious that Gavilar wanted to bring on a desolation for religious reasons.

I have a guess regarding the difference: There are stages to death: 1. Dying 2. Dead 3. Soul in the holding world (for want of a better word) 4. Soul gets sucked to the beyond 2 & 3 could happen instantaneously after each other, but they are distinct stages. What occurs between 3 & 4 is that the call to the beyond grows. With these stages in mind - there is a difference in time before the resurrections of Gawx and Szeth. Gawx was either dying (brain function but essentially dead), or only just dead. Lift was there on site to apply regrowth. As a secondary part -, she used an innate ability. Szeth was dead for some time - having his soul severed by the shardblade, then falling away into the storm, before Nale could get to him. As a secondary part - Nale used a fabrial (which may not perfectly match innate abilities) From here...the basis for the difference becomes a bit more sketchy - but the important thing is there was a difference in timeline between the two ressurections, which places the soul at different stages during the resurrections.

This theory is confusing: It's presupposes that the Heralds swords are the link to Braize, - Heralds are themselves heavily invested. The guess that the sword is the link to Braize is just a guess. - it supposes that the sword takes the Heralds to Braize dead or alive (when they survive a desolation) - but the swords didn't do this. Unless they do some mystical nonsense with the sword...but there no evidence of this. - But what we already know / is evidenced, is that dying takes the Heralds to Braize. So wouldn't it make more sense if it was simply the Heralds death that triggered their going to Braize? . - so if they survived, they needed to kill themselves to fulfill their oath - it doesn't have to be the Honorblade to kill them, because being killed by desolationspawn also took them to Braize. So it appears simply dying is the the answer. The Heralds going to Braize is part of the oathpact: - the Heralds made an oath to do so, with Honor and Odium (and possibly Cultivation) - the Knights Radiant did not make such an oath. It also presupposes that spren: -, tied to Roshar, created a link to Braize by bonding humans. - are able to invoke part of the Oathpact between Odium, themselves, and Humans - who would know where the KR who advanced far enough went (dang, my silly KR said one oath too many) - and were still happily bonding humans...right up until the time the KR killed a lot of them Then there's the theory that if the KR advanced far enough, they went to Braize as part of the Oathpact. The KR went on for centuries after the last desolation, and before the Recreance. Perhaps they live a long time, or perhaps they died of old age, and kept getting replaced by new Radiants. Let's say the advancing far enough triggers going to Braize: - Surely in those centuries, some of them advanced far enough? - where's the desolation linked to such events occurring? - Such advancements would have happened sporadically over the centuries, rather than all at once. Surely the KR would have noted if their very highest members kept disappearing to Braize? (some can walk the Cognitive Realm. Surely they would have some idea) Now on the for side: Honor made a binding agreement at the oathpact. Spren are parts of Honor and so parts of them must be bound by the oathpact. Spren, in bonding to humans, and trying to imitate something honor did in relation to the Heralds....may carry that agreement into the Nahel Bond. Personally, think this is what Nale came to believe, but it also seems to be wrong.

I'm betting Taln will recover around the time he first meets Nale...and punches him in the face.

I think people take for granted that cities would always function as cities...but cities die off if: - the farms that support them die - they lose water - their sewerage system breaks (this one is not terminal, but it can mean a moderate to severe loss of population, which then leads to skills loss, which then leads to other problems) A city is a place where people can specialise, instead of: - growing / hunting their own food - building their own house - making their own clothes - making their own tools etc Many tools require tools to make tools. Sometimes you need a tool, to make a tool, to make a tool (On earth, a computer may require this path hundreds of times). And each time takes specialised knowledge. The loss of that knowledge leads to the loss of the tools, leads to the loss of ability to make many things. If you stopped and asked yourself, what tools do I need to build #### (and you arrived at A, B, C & D), then asked yourself what do I need to make A, B, & C (and you arrived at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8), then asked yourself 'what do I need to make 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8...then asked yourself... (you get the pattern) - I think you'd be surprised how many tools can be involved in making tools to build one single thing . Then move on to the next building project, and repeat. It's an enormous amount of tools. And that's not even mentioning what is needed for the mining, to make metals that make the tools. When people no longer have access to necessary tools. When they have to grow food just to survive, or fight for it. When they have to fight for or build shelter. When their clothes are falling off their back...what time do they have left to teach much of anything, let alone reading & writing?

Ahh, so, you roughly agree with me. (had a problem with formatting, hence the twin post) I do think though, that the latest desolation has followed a very different path that previously trod for Odium's influence.

Why should there be much difference at all between how the voidbringers arrived the first time, and how they arrived at each subsequent desolation? They still have to transfer from Braize (barring any that get left behind, if that at all happens). One would think it would happen in the roughly the same way each time. So, in describing the time it takes voidbringers to transfer / establish themselves on Roshar, the stanza explains why the Heralds had time to train humanity before the desolation fully arrives. Put another way - as the arrival of the Heralds 'heralds' the start of a desolation - can you offer any other explanation for why the Heralds have time to train humanity (rather than facing a full on, immediate desolation)?

I should also add that Shardplate and Shardblade cannot both be of the KR's bonded spren. Shardplate and Shardblade are separate entities because they can be separated. Said in different ways : one person can use shardplate, while another person can use the blade. And you can use the chestplate (of shardplate) to regrow the rest of shardplate - but you can't use it to regrow a blade you've lost, nor can you use the blade to regrow the plate. This means they are different entities (referencing the cognitive realm). So I'd say there's a 99.9% chance that plate is indeed from other spren, and that those spren are the 'cousin spren' (so for windrunners, windspren)

That verse apparently explains why, when the Heralds returned, they had a year or more (probably somewhat more) to prepare the human race for the desolation to come (if you go by Taln's rambling about preparing humanity). The question then, is how did the Everstorm occur? An even bigger question has always been, 'why couldn't Odium unleash the Everstorm during a prior desolation?' My guess is that, while Taln was in the place of torture....with the oathpact still intact, but mostly broken, there has been a slow buildup towards this desolation, and Odium has put in a lot more planning as to how it would occur.

Well, there's several things we know about shardplate: - the KR version glowed (previously stated) - it moulds itself to the wearer - it will regrow - if you lose the helmet, but keep the breastplate, you can regrow the helmet, and the 'lost helmet' disintegrates - the KR's helmet in Dalinar's vision just disappeared All of this is explainable if Shardplate exists somewhat in the Cognitive Realm, because the cognitive realm relies on an objects (or persons) view of itself. And if it has some simple sentience, then the above becomes even more explainable. In other words, that Shardplate may consist of spren, is a pretty good guess. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That it may consist of Windspren is also a pretty decent guess, because: - shardplate doesn't interfere with KR abilities but does with Szeths - while we see Syl getting upset at shardblades, we don't see her getting upset at shardplate - is the amount of windspren Kaladin seems to be attracting (though there are other explanations for this) - Syl only became a shardblade. There seems no reason for her to become plate as well, nor any indication that she will (whereas most of us saw her becoming a shardblade coming) Overall, like the idea.

The Stormlight Archive is really about Knights Radiant, Voidbringers / Desolations, and the story arcs that surround & impact on that. The problem writing Adolin is that he doesn't truly fit in anywhere: - he's not a Knight Radiant (a central ability, and a purpose)...and he better well not be. Being a KR requires one to be broken, and it would be ridiculous in the extreme for Dalinar, Jasnah, Renarin AND Adolin to all be so severely broken, and requires one to reflect an ideal (repeat, riduculous for all Kholin family to reflect ideals), and requires one to be chosen by spren (repeat, ridiculous). There are many who think it's already ridiculous that so many Kholin are KR> - He's not Taravangian & the Diagram (a purpose) - He's not a Son of Honour, trying to bring a desolation to return the Heralds (a purpose) - His place in the story so far has been largely reliant on him being Dalinar's son. What is it that Adolin brings to the table to enable him to be a major character? Don't get me wrong, I found Adolin chapters strangely readable (as in I still can't quite figure out why, as a whole, they were good reads). But within the arc of the SA, I just don't see how or why he would develop into a major character. It would be much easier to let him slip into obscurity by the end of Oathbringer, or the book after.

Has anyone considered that there are no witnesses to Adolin's murder of Sadeas, but that the consequences may still be dire anyway? A High Prince of Alethkar has been murdered ... not in battle, not in a political manouver, not in a duel, not over honour, but outright murdered! If you wanted to make the consequences of the murder interesting, you wouldn't have a murder trial at the start of a desolation...you'd have consequences that Adolin would have to deal with from a moral perspective: - Ialai laying the blame at Shallan's feet, and trying to kill her... - Ialai blames Dalinar, and so has Navani killed... - an almost Civil War in Uruthiru because of Sadeas death, with Dalinar trying to stop it... etc So if it's Ialai, does Adolin now have to tell someone the truth? Does he have to kill Ialai too? Does he feel responsibility for the fallout? Does he try to fix it and make it worse?

Yep. Thanks. Change molecular to cellular just there.

I see Cohesion as the ability of related objects to interact in concert. Hence an army unit, even with each individual separated by space, could be cohesive, or not...but a person and a rock, with the person walking on a rock field, can't be said to be cohesive, and if you separate them by distance...even less so (if it were possible to make impossible less possible) At a molecular level, that means Cohesion would affect the ability of a persons cells to act in concert...so if KR empowered those cells to no longer work in concert, the KR would (effectively) stun the person, or knock them out, or cause them to faint (but as the KR doesn't affect the cells adherent qualities - they can't dissolve a person) To clarify the comparison to Adhesion...When I think of two molecules sticking / being attracted to each other, I think of that as Adhering to one another (ie. Adhesion) rather than Cohering (ie Cohesion)...but how they move / interact together, is how they Cohere together. When I think of Tension, as how it would be used in SA, I think of water surface tension - which is a tension that like molecules / cells / interlinked objects create together. Hence a cloth could become armour (cloth being interlinked cells), water could be walked on, and air...air could become a shield bubble (used in reverse, this is a prison bubble), or a wall, or a bridge (etc). Given the above, an argument could be made for the abilities allowing for electrical discharge in certain circumstances. Adhesion on the other hand,doesn't have the requirement of objects being related, or alike, in order to bind those two objects together.

Favourite Characters (in order): - Kaladin: I always like the Kaladin scenes, I like his sense of honour, and his competence, yet complicated by his doubts. Too many favourite scenes: Saving Dalinars army, Saving Adolin in the 4v1 duel, Shallan & Kaladin taking on the Chasmfiend, Least favourite scene...oddly, much of the battle at the end of WoR with Szeth (although I rather liked Syl's weapon switcheroo's) because it became quite overpowered and left me wondering where the book could go from here (with the remaining oaths) - Lopen. He seems to embody that Monty Python song 'Always look on the bright side of life" (Favourite scene: where the stub of his lost arm starts growing. Next fav: where he says he likes being a bridge runner) - Szeth. Such conflict within one person. Such drama. Favourite scene (A): opening scene to WoK. Absolutely fantastic way to open a story. Other random favourite scenes: Hoid telling Kaladin stories, Taln scenes, Syl trying to part the winds while Kaladin is strung up in a highstorm, Giant turtle islands, Gaz - in Shallan's entourage - being spotted by Kaladin. Absolute favourite scene: Really tough one. I'd probably go with Szeth's assassination of the Jah Kaved king...but only just, over the Kaladin saves Dalinar / Adolin scenes. Szeth's use of lashings in that scene was incredible.

Don't forget that in the Shallan arc, where Jasnah tries soulcasting the strawberry jam into something else (edible), she couldn't do that well, so a human (from rock) in all their organic complexity (spirit attached or not), would be quite impossible. If it were possible to soulcast a human,and attach spirit from the spiritual realm to the soulcast 'human' - then the question would arise 'What else can we do?'.... and where would that question stop? New people with no past? New animals? Clones? Trollocs? New forms of higher intelligence?

If the stick falls in a forest... is the stick still a stick if there is nobody to call him a stick?

That reminded me. There is evidence for this. The epilogue of Way of Kings, Taln says "The desolation has come.Oh God...it has come. And I have failed." Taln may know by his mere return that the desolation has come, but why would he think he's failed? You cannot fail at something you have not one iota of control over. So the only possible inference being that he (or the heralds) had some ability to stop desolations from arriving. Further, Taln knows that it is him that has failed, not one of the other Heralds (it's quite believable that the Heralds would be tortured separately, never seeing any of the others in damnation). And that his failure directly lead to his return to Roshar...

This is the best, and simplest answer to the cause of the desolations that I have seen. To me, answers must answer each and every problem...and simple ones do this best. The only objection being that Nale believes KR bring on desolations, but that is also as simple as 'he's cracked in the head' I don't think 'the KR's cause it' can get past: - desolations occurring before their existence. - hundreds of years of KR existence after the Heralds left, without another desolation. - the desolation didn't occur until Taln broke Evidence that Nale is cracked in the head - taken together as a whole (because individual points are always able to be argued, and it's the whole that shows who a person is), include: - his utter dedication to Law of the Land (several aspects seen in the Lift interlude), including something like 'it is the only beauty in life'. It's quite cracked by itself. - ignoring Sezth's muliple multitude of murders (which are breaches of Law of the Land that Sezth is in), justifying it by essentially saying it's the inner law that matters, not the outer law in direct and utter contradiction to the first point. The ability to hold two such polar opposites as values, using them willy nilly to justify his (Nales) agenda, shows a cracked mind. - his hunting surgebinders for minor infringements of the Law of the Land (no matter how the surgebinders actions gelds with their inner law - which directly contradicts the 2nd point), with Nales intention to kill them, but still getting warrants of execution from the Nations government...is cracked. Btw, I'm not saying that a perverse logic can't be found in it - just that it's cracked. - claiming that KR cause the desolations, hunting and killing them while training his own Skybreakers (who, as is seen in the Lift interlude, where one virtually murders thingamajig, don't necessarily follow Nale's values) is cracked.

I was just about to post on another thread (related to the cause of the Recreance), when I thought I'd better go look, and see if someone else thinks the same thing. I have always thought it most likely that Nale convinced the KR that they needed to abandon their oaths, in order to destroy the Nahel Bond, to prevent a further desolation. What other possible reason could ever get everyone to act in concert? - Not war (because if they thought it wasn't right, they wouldn't participate) - Not politics (because they would deal with the problematic politician/s...and they were already somewhat divided anyway, so all agreeing is very problematic) - Not a cataclysm (which is what they are there for) ...so what other possible reason could result in ALL of them agreeing to break the Nahel Bond at the same time? Not just all amongst an order, but all amongst all the orders? (which seems likely, or an order would have survived to this day, you would think) Whether or not someone else convinced Nale of that 'truth' seems irrelevant to me. It's not the KR that cause it: - Desolations occurred before the KR, so it's not the KR that cause it. -It's not using investiture either (which is what Nale directly when talking about Lifts use of stormlight), because the Heralds went to 'another place' in between desolations, and the use of Investiture like the KR only came about when spren discovered the Nahel Bond...some time after the Heralds were founded, but before Nohadon wrote Way of Kings. So my bet has always been that Nale was looking for some explanation, no matter how tenuous, to justify his betrayal of: - Tanavast - the Oathpact; and perhaps worst of all (as it would likely play on his mind constantly) - Taln Such a massive betrayal must have profound / severe psychological consequences. So in order to deal with it, he gripped onto 'it's not my fault, it must be the Knights' Radiant', and 'my betrayal is okay, because I can work to stop another desolation' and has been hunting fledgling KR ever since.

Who was the interlude fellow with all the Tattoo's trying to discover if 'intoxication spren' actually existed?

I believe the poll was 'who would win a KR civil war?' As you can't affect someone who is invested, soulcasting would be almost useless in direct combat. In fact, any ability that directly affected other beings would be almost useless in direct combat...just indirectly. Then there's the questions of - 'how much stormlight does each orders abilities take'? (endurance) - how much damage can they do in a short period of time (damage output) - how much damage can they take (healers would shine here) It's almost like a MMORPG.

I think it virtually impossible that Amaram won't recognise him. - what Cayden said - Kaladin staring daggers (ie meaning he knows Amaram) - this man saved Amarams life from a shardbearer ...does anyone really think Amaram could forget such a man? - it hasn't been all that long - he's the 'miracle' (re surviving the highstorm)...everyone in Sadeas warcamp knew of him (and Amaram is a subject of Sadeas) - his freedom was purchased with a shardblade...every single warcamp would be talking about that. - he's a darkeyed Captain...what the? - he's marked a slave...and is a dark eyed captain...what the? Seriously, how is it possible that Amaram won't know who Kaladin is?