vikorr

So you are saying that : 1. if they are not gifted, they crumble to dust 2. if they gift them, they won't crumble to dust 3. but when gifted to the new owner, the rules in 1. don't apply Or in other words, the (giving) gifting of a blade causes them to no longer have to be (given away) gifted (in order for the blade to not crumble to dust)? That's so problematic that I can't buy it. Basically, the evidence (what happens when Kaladin kills a shardbearer) is contrary to your theory.

From Chapter 47 'Stormblessings' Kaladin kills a shardbearer : 'The Sharbearer creaked, then fell backward, crashing to the ground. His Blade dropped from him fingers, hitting the ground at an anagle and digging into the stone.' Amaram says 'If he were still alive his blade would have vanished. His armor is falling off him...'

I don't think that the return of the Parshendi gods was tied to the return of the Knights Radiant, as the Parshendi Gods appear to have already returned. The Parshendi knew that by killing the Alethi King they may face destruction, but they considered that a better proposition than their 'terrible gods' returning. So their gods look like they've returned, but the Knights Radiant haven't yet.

I always thought the thunder was just the horse the Shardbearer was riding. Shardplate is incredibly heavy - you can't stand in it without it being powered - so the horse would have to be bigger than & stronger than even a normal horse...so a galloping one could sound like thunder.

Yes...who will lead the Heralds when when the desolation comes, and : - they realise they couldn't prevent the desolation from coming? - they realise they are only half alive? (some of them at least) - they realise they are broken worse inside than when they abandoned their duty? - they realise they have been killing off the one major ability that is able to help fight against the desolations? Well, it's only a suspicion, but I'm guessing that we'll find that : - Kaladin will lead the Knights Radiant - Dalinar will lead the 'dead' Heralds I think Kaladin will lead the Knights Radiant for the simple fact that there appeared to be a bit of foreshadowing in two spots in tWOK, where Dalinar said 'All of Roshar needs you' and in Dalinars vision where Honor said 'You might be able to choose a champion' I think Dalinar will end up leading the Heralds (not saying he will necessarily become one of them - I'm guessing only Cultivation could grant that), because there are hints in WOR readings that Jezrien may no longer be mentally fit...and given Dalinar's dedication to Honor, to Justice (Nalan & the other 'dead' Heralds qualities), and his natural leadership qualities/status..he'd likely be one of the few choices acceptable to the Heralds that wish to participate against the desolation / everstorm. Again, it's really not even a theory - just a guess.

Hi Gloom, how did the world fight prior to the Knights Radiant? That question brings me to one of the most intriguing quotes in tWoK - found in the Prelude to Book One, Part One "The stone ridges and mounds bore numerous scars. Some were shattered, blasted out sections where surgebinders had fought. Less frequently, he passed cracked, oddly shaped hollows where thunderclasts had ripped themselves free..."

Aren't they trying to prevent the return of their gods? The spren inside the Chasmfiends already exist. And in the Eshonai Reading, they Parshendi fled their gods - coming to where the Chasmfiends were : That said - I think what we are looking at here is something quite remarkable. The Parshendi have separated themselves from their gods just as 'the final desolation has arrived'. And Honor seems to worry that the Humans won't be able to stand against the Everstorm -but it's obvious that the books have to go on, so... ...with the Parshendi separating themselves from their gods, and apparently related to bringing no voidbringers - who appear whenever a desolation occurs....could the Parshendi be necessary to their gods to bringing on the Everstorm? And Dalinar, in uniting the High Princes, may force them back to their gods. It could be the crux of WoR. With Kaladin (who appears to have the greatest empathy for the Parshendi, and who appears to be the object of their Prophecies, or some such) playing a central role in the survival of the Parshendi, and perhaps by extension, the Human race.

Hi Hoser, thanks for the wonderful arguments against. This is the only one I had a couple of small issues with - there was no claim that the Heralds were needed to rule the Radiants (just that they led them). And as the Heralds abandonded their duty, and Honor is Dead, I see no reason why Honor in the visions would focus on an almost impossibility - regrouping the Heralds & making them take up their duty a lot (being dead, he can't make a new lot)

I see a few problems with the Knights Radiant being their 'gods' 1. The Parshendi possess shardsets (armour & blade) - which the Knights Radians possessed 1a. Dalinar et al in Shardsets would look very similar to KR, but they try to kill them 2. The Parshendi are believed to be related to the voidbringers 3. The Shattered plains, from the air, appears to be almost an arcane pattern (seen in Kaladin's dream) 4. The back cover of WoR (which has been revealed) suggest other than the Knights Radiant. In relation to the Parshendi calling Kaladin 'Neshua Kadal' - I always figured that was a title from a prophecy or some such. I would have thought it was their name for 'Windrunner', but it doesn't really fit with their reaction vs a Windrunner's abilities - the fear is much more akin to a reaction to prophecy (which admittedly doesn't greatly with the prophecy limitations on Roshar). Edit : if their Gods were Odium related - they may well have tried to prevent Gavilar from returning the Knights Radiant to existance.

Hi Rybal, that theory would run into a different sort of problem – why were spren hanging around just Urithiru waiting to form a Nahel Bond with them? It’s not something that seems to happen in the present day world (although Shinovar may yet show otherwise) Hi Hoser You do have some valid points. I would however like to point out, in relation to the KR being led by the Heralds (which of course could only happen when the Heralds were present) - phrased in the negative - do you really think that the Heralds didn't lead the KR against the desolations (when the Heralds were present)? (not doing so would prove rather problematic to Roshar I would think) And would not the thrones (empty when the Heralds were not present), have a symbolic meaning that would allow the KR's to easily slip in to following the Heralds lead when they returned? In relation to the greater weight we should attribute Dalinar's visions - I agree. And there is also nothing in his visions that actually goes against what I theorised. In relation to the weight we should give Roshars history - I would point out that while things warp with history, Jasnah is both a cynic and a veristatilion (I hope I got that right) – a historian trained to sort myth and perspective from truth in histories, and the foremost scholar in the world. That lends some weight to her words. And as I mentioned previously, some explanation is needed for why being invited by the KR to Urithiru can apparently lead to the granting of the Nahel Bond (Rybals theory may be possible, but it seems to me the less likely of the two, for in his version - there should be a correlating place in the world today) And some explanation is needed for the intersecting ‘coincidences’ of 10 seats for kings, 10 heralds, and the ‘title’ of ‘King of the Heralds’…which coincidences combine with the ‘coincidental’ abandonment of Urithiru prior to the betrayal of the Knights Radiant - which looks suspiciously like it fits in with the timing of the Heralds abandoning their duty – for why else would such a central city (and a city central to the KR) be abandonded before the KR disbanded (they were still very strong right until the end). The Status, and then the fate of Urithiru is very important to this theory, just as is what could apparently happen there (the granting of the Nahel Bond) I think my theory can explain all of these ‘coincidences / events’…even if it still has concerns (like the ones you raised) – which aren’t insurmountable concerns. ............................ P.S. even if the KR were founded as an Order for surgebinders prior to the granting of the Shardsets - that's fine by me...I would only point out that in Dalinars visions, it's two things that define KR - surgebinding AND shardsets (and then from Histories, also the oaths)...so rather arguably, they didn't become KR until both Surgebinding & Shardsets existed...meaning there is a case, from Dalinars visions, for the KR to be founded by the Heralds.

Gah, delete the (this may damage the Szeth has an honorblade theory). I saw the hole in that as soon as I posted it..but the rest of the paragraph stands. Is there an edit feature?

The reason I doubted that anyone would argue that the Heralds/Honor formed the Knights Radiant is for no other reason than the Shardplate & blades. The ancients didn't have Fabrials that might have created them (from Dalinars visions), and even the 'halfshards' of Jah Keved are heavy and cumbersome compared to a shardblade. That pretty much left the Heralds/Honor. I do agree that the Nohadon vision appears to be prior to the formation of the Knights Radiant. It may be that prior to Nohadon, Honor believed that placing around a thousand or so shardsets into the hands of humans would lead to it's own kind of desolation in between desolations (remember in Dalinars last vision, Tanavast said 'he realised that you, given time, will become your own enemies')... ...but with the advent of Nohadon and 'The Way of Kings', they found a culture and philosophy they could use to create an Order (the KR) that would enable people of honour to take up the shardset to become protectors. If it appears in Dalinar's visions that all Knights Radiant are also Surgebinders (which it does), and it's held that Surgebinding is what the Knights Radiant did (Teft and Jasnahs beliefs), then the following quote is quite odd : From the Starfalls Vision : It raises the question : Can surgebinding be granted? (this may damage the Szeth has an honorblade theory) Or from another perspective, can certain beings communicate with Spren to request a Nahel Bond on behalf of a recruit? As far as I know, the only posibility of that appears to be, once again, the Heralds or Honor / Cultivation...but the only one a common KR would have access to is, a Herald. --------------------------- P.S. the 1000 shardsets number, I arrived at from the vision at Feverstone Keep (Chapter 52 A Highway to the Sun), where 200 Knights Radiant left their suit & weapons with only two orders present, being the Order of the Stonewards and Windrunners.

(1st post here) Hello, I think the knights radiant were around for quite some time, and many, many desolations : From the Starfalls chapter : The sort of setup they had takes decades....and maintaining the arts of war so the other kingdoms may have peace, then teaching those others when a desolation comes - that reeks of a multi-desolation setup. This again suggests a long time - enough time to form and become solidified and focused, and enough time to split into 10 orders. From Chapter 45 Shadesmar : Jasnah is speaking : Admittedly this is 'belief' - though with an organisation that plays such a huge role in the history of Roshar, it's hard to believe they would get this one wrong (that the 99 times fighting against the voidbringers was led by the Heralds and the Knights Radiant) In the same chapter we have the quotes : and 10 seats for kings, 10 kingdoms, and 10 Heralds...with the Heralds leading. It's not a long bow to draw that the Heralds were the Kings, and in between time they had stewards or such. Jezrien is also noted as the King of the Heralds - usually you are just a 'leader' of 10 men...but if those men were themselves kings...'High King' would easily fit (in Urithiru), as would 'King of the Heralds'. And Urithiru is the base for the KR (as well as the Silver Kingdoms)...who were formed and led by the Heralds (I think that's stated somewhere, but in any event, I doubt anyone would argue against the Heralds/Almighty forming the KR) Now we come back to the Starfalls vision - when Dalinar asks what year it is, he get's the reply 'Eighth Epoch Three Thirty-Seven'. And (somewhere I can't find), those days are referred as the 'Heraldic Epochs'. So 8th epoch, 3-37 suggests a long, long time for the Silver Kingdoms...and presumably also for the KR. The Silver Kingdoms and the KR are inextricably linked...Urithiru was abandoned long before the KR abandoned humanity...abandoned probably around the time the Heralds left...and now the Silver Kingdoms are no more.