vikorr

Yes she's theorised to have one, yet Dalinar got a very good look at it, and says he's certain they didn't have Fabrials...that's a huge thing to overcome for that theory.

I just realised I should have formatted my last post as : - Kaladins had an aversion to shardplate (yet he doesn't really know why) - Syl disdains shardplate (her comment re Dalinar giving up his shardplate), despite the fact it's theorised that spren helped make shardplate, she said of Dalinar 'it makes him a better man' - Dalinar's has an aversion to fabrial fireplaces (similar to Kaladins reaction - he didn't know why) - the Knights Radiant didn't seem to have any Fabrials (Dalinars comments on his visions)

Problems I see with the original posts include wyndle's people being able to cross over, Jasnah doesn't remember her spren being particularly dumb - just quiet. The other issue (because this is related to the betrayal, and theories on why Darkness hunts surgebinders) is that the spren are binding with humans again in a fight for survival...why are sprens lives threatened? (their lives aren't threatened by human bonding, otherwise they wouldn't do it) It could be that, being living ideas, they realise all of humanity is about to be threatened - meaning if all the humans diedt, then many spren would die... ...but if the parshendi need (intelligent?) spren to become voidspren to initiate a desolation, then wouldn't the (intelligent?) spren just stay away and it could never happen...yet the everstorm is coming anyway. If it's coming anyway - how then are the intelligent spren bound to surgebinders the cause of desolations?

I just found this in one Dalinar's WoR vision : That, combined to Kaladins reaction to winning a shardset seem too similar. One we know has trapped spren, the other we strongly suspect has trapped (once/sentient) spren. The one we know contains spren (the fabrials) appear unlikely to contain sentient spren....but Dalinar appears to have an aversion to them.

Fabrials work by trapping spren in gems, and them placing the gems into devices - in WoK there is a drawing from 'Navani's Notebook'. It has notations of trapping spren in gems.

You can add to that post this quote from one of Kaladins scens in WoR

I think it's unlikely to almost impossible that the soldiers are radiants in training. Brandon wouldn't make so many mistakes with the scene. This was my post from another thread...disregard the part about my thought that it occurred through a bond (or that I thought the KR was a stoneward)- others have said the same thing could occur through division...but the rest of it relates directly to why they aren't KR in training. It's a bit long to repost. Explanation

I thought the reason the cryptics are called lie spren was very simple - Jasnah mentions it in pretty much the same breath as the Honorspren and Cryptics having a dispute. ...now, if you are an honorspren, and a cryptic tells you something...it's probably the full truth while being a complete and utter deception. Now to an honorspren, that's exactly the same thing as lying...hence Honorspren named the cryptics 'liespren'. To a cryptic, honorspren are probably odious and naive, who's opinions aren't worth a damnation. Hence the 'dispute' between them.

I agree with Macen, for the following reason : In Dalinars Vision, with the Almight talking about the Knights Radiant : The almight isn't talking about surgebinding (although that could be part of it), but the full blown Knights Radiant, and the Knights Radiant (rather than just surgebinders) were linked to the Spren. It appears that the shardset was invested by the spren, and if it was the bonded spren, then the Recreance was absolutely a betrayal of the spren. There's evidence that the shardset for a Knight Radiant comes from the bonded spren : - Brandon says its much more difficult to affect an already invested item...in this case a shardset - Szeth says his lashings won't work on Shardset - in the Starfalls Vision the Windrunner is flying while in shardsuit, and how did edgedancers use friction on themselves etc...but if the suit is attuned individually because of their bonded spren, it is then easy enough to imagine that the invested suit would not interfere with surgebinding abilities granted by the bond with the same spren. - the suits glowed prior to the Recreance, and immediately not - directly after And evidence from the vision : - "I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren..." (ie allowing the formation of the Knights Radiant...not just surgebinders, but KR) - wishing to immitate what I had given men... So what was this last they he had given men? The most obvious answer is 'The Heralds'. And what did Heralds have? Honorblades (and there has been argument for immortality being granted the KR as well, but that's not so important to this). Hence it appears that the Spren are responsible for the Shardsets (more specifically, bonded spren). So I have to agree with Macen on the betrayal. edit : corrected name

Yep, thanks for the WoB quote.

Good pickup Stoneward on the Highway to the Sun vision. And nice theory on division.

Well, I'll bring my other post back to the final surge forum where it belongs. In Dalinars WoR vision, there is the following sequence. Others have theorised that they are all KR in training - meaning they are all surgebinders....but this makes absolutely no sense, with way too many reasons against it for Brandon to have made such a mistake :. - First and foremost : in a whole squad, not a single one of them shows any sign of surgebinding (other than being dimly glowy)...and they are fighting a... . ...You would think they'd be pulling every trick they could out...but not one single trick. This goes so far as to be unbelievable on this point alone if they are all surgebinders. Dalinar is obviously watching when they start glowing - all unexpectedly, and it appears all together. From a normal human nature combined with surgebinding abilities perspective, this presents a LOT of problems : - every human has different reaction times, meaning their decision to suck in stormlight would occur at slightly different times, but Dalinar sees them all 'unexpectedly glowing', apparently altogether at once. - surgebinders can choose to absorb different amounts of stormlight (this is obvious).. and in an emergency each surgebinder would suck in the amount they felt they needed without consultation with other team members (its an emergency after all)...which would result in each of them absorb different amounts of stormlight...but they all appear to be glowing evenly. - as surgebinders, some would have glowed brightly...but this is not the case. The KR, only had a 'calm white light' about her, and the soldiers glowed 'far more faintly' Prior to Kaladin speaking the 2nd oath (ie base level surgebinder), Chapter 67 also makes it clear that the amount used effects the amount of glowy light generated, where he throws all of his stormlight into his shield, and you get the following commentary : Yet we see not one sign of this different usage, not one sign of stormlight exertion...with them facing one of the most dangerous beasts ever known. ------------------ PS. I think the knight was a stoneward. -The armour glowed red because of a red Heliodor (some raised the issue of the chart not being red - but the chart would just show the most common colour of gem. The armour glows after the colour of gem, not the colour of the chart). - running through water with ease can be caused by reducing the water tension (ie the bond between water molecules that attracts them together) of the water in front of you - which you have to push out of your way - something friction doesn't help with. Friction only helps with the water leaving your skin AFTER you have pushed it out of your way. So water tension manipulation is better than friction manipulation for this. - the case was made that the knight would run on top of the water...which she could, but how does she get up there in an emergency (not too hard I would think), and how does she get her squad up on top of it (incredibly hard I would think, and would drain her stormlight very quickly) ----------------------------------------- But if you come back to my final surge is a bonding surge theory...this whole passage makes perfect sense, and I predicted it Link to prediction of this scene As for why it makes sense, if you think about bonding a squad and then supplying a squad with stormlight through that bond(to provide energy, speed, endurance and healing - the base effects of stormlight), then the order, timing, magnitude and behaviour (of stormlight) in every aspect of the scenario make sense : - They only start glowing after the Knight Radiant starts glowing (which makes sense if she has bonded to them), - they don't show any surgebinding powers in a life & death fight (which makes sense if she has bonded to them) - they don't appear to be using varying amounts of stormlight in a life & death fight (ie varying glow depending on useage) (which makes sense if she bonded to them) - they appear to glow all at once, together (which would also make sense if she has bonded to them), - their glow is 'far more faintly' than the 'calm light' that the KR has (which again makes sense if she has bonded to them)

I found this article while searching for it : http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Navani%27s_Notebook I hope it's not wrong to post a different website. It actually shows that the fabrial has to do with the gemstone - or more precisely, the trapping of a spren in a gemstone (and then it's put in a functional setting)...it doesn't quite make sense with a soulcaster, though it makes sense with all the other fabrial we know of. Poor spren.

What then is the difference between a normal gemstone & a fabrial? If you place two gemstones in a pouch, do you suddenly get a fabrial? Of course not. What if you put two gemstones on a table touching each other - are they now a fabrial? Of course not. There has to be more to it than just something holding two gemstones together. On that basis - I'll go back to the setting needing to be functional. I doubt Brandon made Fabrial science willy nilly.

On another re-read...I can't actually find a description of a soulcaster (other than gemstones being set into it). Anyone able to help?

Drat, soulcasters do break that . Nice pick up. Edit : even so, with the soulcaster, the gems are inset (if I recall the description correctly), whereas the Starfalls vision one is just held with metal (which is easily explained as necessity to keep the two gems together on a battlefield)

All I can say is that you have not one iota of evidence that it is a Fabrial...whereas, every piece of evidence in the books says otherwise : this is a cut and paste from my other post : http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5137-final-surge/#entry84728 -------------------- In terms of the Knight Radiant carrying a 'Fabrial' - Dalinar tells Navani that he is certain the ancients possessed no Fabrials (sorry, I can't find that quote), and Dalinar gets a very good long look at the artefact that the Knight Radiant was carrying Quote If you look at the Fabrial Picture at the start of Chapter 55, and the description of the spanreeds, halfshards, and Navani's painrial (Chapter 60) it becomes clear that Fabrials are gemstones set into functional/mechanical devices. The descriptions we have agree with Dalinar's assessment that it wasn't a Fabrial. ----------------------------- Back to commentary : That's as much in the books as we have...and each piece that the book provides points to what the Knight Radiant carried as simply being gemstones. Edit : it's pretty difficult to predict a scene like the glowing soldiers without the bond theory being right

Hi Moogle Heliodors can be red (or yellow). The ease of movement through water may also be explained through the ‘Surface Tension’ surge, rather than friction – by reducing the surface tension of the water. My own theory is that the Knight is Dalinar’s vision is a Bondsmith, because I predicted the very scenario of a squad of soldiers glowing, just a couple of days before the chapter was published. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5137-final-surge/ I hope the link worked properly. This would place this Knight Radiant as a Stoneward. So here we have the armour glowing red...but : Here we have her stormlight glowing a calm white. This by the way, isn't a blazing light, but a calm light - which is important in comparison to her soldiers. This only happens after the Knight Radiant starts glowing (which makes sense if she is bonded to them), and appears to occur all at once (which would also make sense if she is bonded to them), and it is dimmer than the 'calm light' that the KR has (which again makes sense if she is bonded to them) If they were KR in training, as suggested elsewhere - they would still be surgebinders, and : - some would surely have absorbed stormlight prior to the KR (which none did); and - they would have started glowing at different times (which we have no evidence of, and surely it would have been obvious); and - they would each have absorbed different amounts, meaning they would have glowed at different brightnesses (which doesn't happen); and - some would have been slightly brighter than the KR, who only had a 'calm white light' about her (but this is not the case) - they would have displayed their own individual surgebinding abilities (which they don't) A Bonding surge explains this behaviour (which I predicted, yay!), AND the STARFALLS vision regarding the 'ability to communicate over distance', and the ability to heal with a gem (which doesn't appear to be a fabrial)...although Shardlet won't like that last. removed edit

By the way Stoneward, Dalinar's vision in the released chapters may explain 'Stoneward' for you.

Woo Hoo, it appears I guessed the final Surge correctly. With the release of chapters 3 to 5, I found this Quote - which is from the complete version of Dalinar's vision.

Dalinar would actually make sense (especially rather than introducing a new major character), and as he shows signs of surgebinding, 'Bondsmith' would likely then be an Order of the Knights Radiant. Edit : I initially thought Elohkar, then ruled that out on him seeing Cryptics, and not particularly trying to rebuild anything...hence I didn't immediately think of Dalinar.

Well, I'm not sure of it's relevance, but (as it mentioned the word 'bond') I thought I'd post an excerpt from the back cover of Words of Radiance : Now admittedly 'The Explorer' appears to refer to either Eshonai or Jasnah. If Jasnah, it misses her title of Elsecaller and throws into doubt the meaning of Bondsmith. But if refers to Eshonai (who desperately wants to Explore), then Bondsmith may be one of the KR orders. And the name may give a clue to the final Surge. Edit : I have no idea who the Bondsmith is.

Good point Shardlet

Hi Shardlet - I didn't end up proposing that the surge was 'regrowth' (though when I started writing, that's what it appeared to be). I was proposing that the unknown surge is 'Bonding' (or some fancy name for it). Through a surgebinding 'bonding' with a non-surgebinder, it would grant the 'bonded non-surgebinder' access to stormlights healing properties. Through 'bonding' the KR would be able to communicate with others. If you look at regrowth, this is how it is described in the Lift Interlude : Now if you look at how it occurred in Dalinar's vision, you get this in relation to Dalinar's wounds : and for Taffa's wounds So we can already see that this Knight Radiant did healing in a different way to what is known about Regrowth. But if you look at Kaladin's healing, from Chapter 62 you get this : And when we compare the Starfalls vision to Kaladins healing, what we find is that : 1. Dalinar's reaction to the healing is very similar to Kaladins reaction : pain vanishing, and a feeling of cold 2. Taffa's healing has similarities : the skin healing without a scar, and non-matches in the flesh just growing...but then, we haven't seen Kaladin or Szeth get chunks ripped out of him for comparison, so no conclusion can be drawn from that particular information. Basically, what we are able to compare matches what Kaladin experiences. ..................................... In terms of the Knight Radiant carrying a 'Fabrial' - Dalinar tells Navani that he is certain the ancients possessed no Fabrials (sorry, I can't find that quote), and Dalinar gets a very good long look at the artefact that the Knight Radiant was carrying If you look at the Fabrial Picture at the start of Chapter 55, and the description of the spanreeds, halfshards, and Navani's painrial (Chapter 60) it becomes clear that Fabrials are gemstones set into functional/mechanical devices. The descriptions we have agree with Dalinar's assessment that it wasn't a Fabrial. Now if you look at Jasnah's healing Shallan, and the Ars Arcanum at the rear of Part 2, it becomes clear that different gemstones achieve different things (eg a Heliodors Soulcasting attributes relate to 'Meat/Flesh', while a Topaz's relates to 'Rock/Stone'), and two gemstones each the size of your hand would require a setting to keep them together, especially in the heat of battle (without a setting, you could almost imagine in the heat of battle an 'oops, I dropped one' scenario). So what the KR appears to be carrying, is just two very large gemstones in a setting. What then explains: 1. The healing outside of regrowth and a Fabrial; AND 2. Appears to match Kaladins healing (but experienced by a non surgebinder when a surgebinder touches them); AND 3. the ability to communicate over great distances? I would say it's caused by a surge that is a 'bonding' surge (combined of course with that dual gemstone setting the KR was carrying)

Isn't she the one that performs regrowth on Dalinar/Heb? Admittedly, from memory, she had some sort of 'gem', but even if it was the source of the healing - I doubt they'd entrust that sort of artefact to an order not dedicated to healing. That said - the 'call me and I will hear you' statement is rather intriguing. What if...what if the last surge allowed the KR to form (and manipulate) a bond with others? That, in conjunction with the gem could explain both the healing and the 'call me and I will hear'. ...and if you don't quite follow the healing through a bond - stormlight heals, so if you form a bond with another person, and have a large gem full of stormlight... That might sound like a rather weak ability, until you consider you may well be able to form multiple bonds, and if you have a large enough gem - you'd end up with quite a squad.