vikorr

I think our original poster is confusing words with Shardic intent. Honour will always try and cultivate honor. It's in the shards nature. The word 'cultivate' is just another word for "bring about", "increase", "imbue" etc. It's impossible for him to help his subjects become more honourable, without 'cultivating' such. Cultivation, with Dalinar, was following her shardic intent of growth. She specifically says something along the lines of "Sometimes you have to prune, in order to grow". That's a very cultivation thing to do. She didn't specifically look for honour, but growth.

I'm surprised that Kaladin isn't included in the list of who Odium's champion could be. Odium said he wanted someone who could dominate a battlefield. Currently we are only looking at: - Dalinar - Kaladin - Szeth - Adolin - a Herald Non combat-skill oriented KR don't count as they won't dominate a battlefield - because as soon as they come up against a combat-skill KR, they are likely to lose, as they can't invest the combat-skilled KR. Heralds aside, of all the characters we've seen, only Dalinar and Kaladin have shown they can dominate a battlefield with little to no Plate/Surgebinding help (Bridge 4 rescuing Dalinar's army, where Kaladin only had access to small amounts of stormlight, and no abilities). But Dalinar has shown he is not going to be turned. And on the list above, Szeth too has shown he's not going to be turned. Kaladin & Adolin are both contenders. Of Adolin & Kaladin, it is Kaladin who appears to have the most wriggle room for Odium to come in and take over. It is Kaladin who has the most doubts. It is Kaladin who appears to have the most potential darkness in him. Of the two, it is Kaladin who appears would more dominate the battlefield. The clues are there for Kaladin to become the Champion of the Dark. Not saying that I want to see him become that champion, just that it really wouldn't surprise me if he did.

I see several people mentioning using emotional allomancy. I'm not sure why people think Vin could use emotional allomancy on an invested person? I see an argument over Vin's ability in the air: - Kaladin is far superior in that regard - Vin can push off coins/metals - that need to secured to the ground, otherwise the coins etc just fly away from her. And for her to stay in the air, the metal definitely needs purchase to the ground.... but if Kaladin lashes her in any direction other than the ground, well, coins have no purchase in the air. Sylshield is important in this dicussion. I would have said, Kaladin lashes her to the air, approaches behind sylshield, then skewers her. I'm not sure how Vin would beat that... ...mind you, I stopped reading that series half way through the second book.

Wouldn't this refer to Taln, or Shallash's view of Taln and Jezrien? It doesn't say 'my strength becomes my weakness', nor 'my death is my life', nor even 'death is my life'. It says THE death, and THE strength. That means something specifically understood to be THE death, and THE strength. If it is from Shallash's perspective, then THE death is likely Jezrien's, and THE strength is likely Taln's.

Yep, Shallan is growing, and learning how to handle danger. She is no longer 90% frightened / timid. And there is definitely a part of her capable of great focus. That aside, unfortunately, she is creating 'personas' to help overcome what she sees as her limitations. Pattern is actually worried about this behaviour. I don't think we're all that far apart on viewpoints. Mostly, I don't think 'Shallan' is an act. And defining her as 90% scared is creating some confusion, because I see her as evolving throughout the story arc in relation to this. Maybe 90% at the start, but I would have put in closer to 40-50% now (possibly less).

I disagree that the killer is the 'real shallan', nor that she acts helpless and scared 90 percent of the time. All conflict situations trigger fight, flight, or freeze. For the sake of a picture (not calling anyone an animal here), there are two types of dogs that will bite you if you walk into their territory: aggressive dogs, and frightened dogs (as opposed to timid dogs). Many frightened dogs will avoid conflict unless cornered, That is, there are two distinct sides to their personality - being frightened (majority of time), but fighting when cornered...then being frightened again Shallan was willing to kill to save her life, but otherwise did not like violence. She became 'helpless' because part of that was already in her personality, and she hid the other side. Hiding wasn't an act, and nor were the consequences of it. Hiding is the reason she struggled so much with her truths that pattern required.It's how she dealt with her mothers death, with how and why her father went downhill, and even with how she killed him - she hides it away.Hiding is a way for 'real shallan' to deal with things she does not want to deal with. In relation to her violent defense of her life - she may be quite afraid of such, and she may hate people who trigger it (hence the yelling and screaming), because at heart she doesn't want to be violent. That does make the violent side 'the real Shallan', it makes violence a genuine part of who she is in life threatening situations...so a side of her that may only come out under life threatening stress. In terms of 'real Shallan' there are also her alter egos, where she feels she becomes them, and to her they seem to have their own thoughts, their own feelings, their own attraction to different men etc. Put another way, each of them thinks differently to 'Shallan', and would react differently than 'Shallan' to the same situation. And we have her being afraid she'll get lost in them...so distinct personalities. --------------- Primal Fear by the way, was a truly great movie. Edward Norton was such a convincing actor - I think it's the best piece of acting he's done (as a movie outcome). I can see the attraction to comparing Shallan to Roy.

I'm not sure how you can ask 'who is the most dangerous' and then insist on only counting 'named person' deaths. As an aside - and although this is nit picky, the word 'dangerous' leaves room for interpretation. 'Who is the most dangerous?' mean anything from 'who is the best killer' to 'who can cause the most havoc' - danger is situational. Kaladin is the best open field fighter (of the three), Adolin is the best duelist, and Shallan (in a warzone) can cause the most havoc. Politically, though both of the other two have their distinct advantages, Shallan would be the most dangerous.

I'm with Red Ferring. Brandon said it would be extremely difficult...and what Dalinar did, has not only never been done before / without precedent, but was enormous. That surely qualifies as extremely difficult. And while sentience was ripped from deadeyes, it was ripped from them because their sentience was tied to their spiritual aspect. Tearing out is essentially severing - so the loss of sentience is a result of a severing from the spiritual realm. Dalinar reunited the cognitive, physical, and spiritual realms in Maya's location. And as we see with the stormlight renewal, only proximity was needed, in order to be affected by that reuniting. In other words, there is no reason to think that Maya hasn't been affected by what Dalinar did. There may still be a question on how much she was affected - ie. if it was enough to restore her? In terms of the Nahel Bond: - Adolin has throughout the series showed he felt a bond with Maya (talking to her before duels, being respectful etc). And I recall Maya as a deadeye, showing a bond (small but there) with Adolin, and that bond increased towards the end, with signs of some sentience when she defended Adolin. It may be a weak bond, but that does not rule out its value, as even the Nahel Bond is weak near the beginning, and near the beginning the spren can just be starting to gain sentience in the physical realm. The spren has to choose their KR. It does appear that Maya has chosen Adolin (when she defended him) In other words, the conditions may have been met for Maya's ressurection. Then again, maybe not. It's really guesswork at the moment.

From memory, Lift speaking to Gawx about Dalinar 'You can't trust him. He's got a tight butt' The explanation was just as entertaining.

Isn't terminal velocity of a falling person mostly related to wind resistance, rather than gravity? This is of course, assuming that Roshar's gravity, even if somewhat different to Earths, is still at a point where it is air resistance, and not gravity that determines terminal velocity. That's from a search 'Terminal velocity person falling'

Being a squire doesn't involve attracting a spren, so I don't see why Rlain needs a new form unless he becomes a Surgebinder, then KR. Having said that, has anyone thought of the differences between Rlain and other WR if he became a KR? He changes form by having the spren reside in his gemheart: - What would the new form look like (I'm betting something really cool, and blue) - How then does the spren become a shardblade? Is this why the fused have to carry spears, rather than shardblades? - Does it mean more efficient power, like how the Fused don't seem to run out of power when flying? - What new rhythms would Rlain discover? Would other Wind Runners (or their spren) be able to understand them? If so, it would mean seeing Rlain in a completely new light.

While true - not having previously seen such strong cognitive effects in other orders does not hold much meaning because: - Shallans use of the cognitive realm is tied to transformation, not cohesion. They should not have the same effects or abilities, at all. - Kaladins touches the cognitive realm only indirectly. Not only should he not have the same abilities at all, but anything he does with the cognitive realm should be much, much weaker. - no other order has a discussion of 'cognitive cohesion'; and (in support of this last) - the Stormfather told Dalinar that his abilities with stone would be different to that of Stonewards, which sets a precedent that surges aren't quite the same for the two orders that share any given surge Most KR orders names reflect their abilities to some degree (elsecallers are a vague term). Willshapers, being a very straightforward name, must have either some ability to shape wills, or use their will to shape. But we've already seen that the transformation surge uses the KR's will to shape things, so why would another KR order be able to do the exact same thing with a different surge? It seems at least feasible that they actually influence/shape wills. The one thing that doesn't fit with the above is the Oathbringer quote on Willshapers That's cut & paste from the coppermind. The problem is, I can't see why an order called willshapers would be this way at all.

So cognitive cohesion as in: - telepathic communication (think battlefield coordination, scouting, spying) - use the force luke "you won't remember this!" (mind suppression) - emotional suppression or enhancement (make others calmer or angrier, etc) - inception (if you've seen the movie, you'll know what I mean) That would make for a really interesting order...and ethically interesting oaths.

Kaladin and Jasnah are worlds apart in relation to how best to deal with the world. This disagreement isn't just be about their personalities, but their spren also. - Can anyone really see Kaladin and Jasnah agreeing to have someone assassinated just because they are a threat to Jasnah's family? - Can anyone really see Kaladin and Jasnah agreeing to summary execution of thieves? - Can anyone really see Kaladin and Jasnah agreeing to collateral damage in order to win? How can you get past that and have a romantic relationship?

I am a fire I am hot I am a fire I am hot I am a fire I am hot I am a fire I am hot Where are all the women... Why are they all stick thin ! Wait...

I think the fourth ideal will be along the lines of “I will honour the living and the dead”. I base this on a number of parts: 1. The 4th ideal is a progression of ‘the type of person the spren want their KR to be’, protecting people without honouring their lives, and deaths, will be shown to be a hollow thing. 2. Both our Windrunners, Teft and Kaladin, seem to have an issue with honouring the dead. 3. Kaladin has previously had problems honouring the living 4. Kaladin just prior to attracting windspren to save captured humans from a highstorm, had been talking with syl about right & wrong, honour, and perception…then getting parshmen to protect humans, and getting people to help each other out of danger. 5. Kaladin, in attracting the windspren aboard Honors Path, was finally thinking about what it means to honour the living. 6. Kaladin attracts windspren near Thaylenah in Shadesmar. This time, he know the words, but cannot say them, thinking of all the dead. So we know that the 4th ideal must relate to his perspective of the dead. 7. Kaladin, then thinks of Dalinar, and the oath he must say, thinking ‘could he really mean them?” In this section we’ll see how the 4th ideal also relates to the living 1. BS said that the ideals were about the type of person the spren wanted them to be. The 2nd & 3rd oaths were about protecting…but: - You cannot protect everyone - You cannot force your protection on such a person who does not want your protection . - You must honour others right to make their own choices - You must honour even their choice to put themselves in danger (eg the Squires, who themselves swear to protect) - If they die, you must honour their choices, their sacrifices, and their lives The fourth ideal must progress the type of person honourspren wish their KR to be, and swearing to protect seems hollow without honouring the lives (values, decisions, journeys, camaraderies) and deaths (willing sacrifices, and other deaths) of those you swear to protect. It is almost akin to saying 'your life and death is about me, not you'. Should they die, then you must honour their lives and deaths. It's why we have funeral services. 2. Both our Windrunners (Teft and Kaladin) seems to have an issue with honouring their dead. For both Teft and Kaladin, if you think about it, it has always been about their failures, their pain. We see that Kaladin, despite his very good intentions, has never: - paid honour to his friends or brother’s deaths - paid honour to their journey (that lead to their deaths), nor the improvement in their lives, nor the camaraderie, nor the meaning when they died doing their best / what they thought was right etc - celebrated the good things in their lives. Teft too, hasn’t done such for his family. 3. Kal has a problem with honouring the living, but he is getting better at it. A year back, in his conversation with Tarah, she says “"Oh, Kal," she whispered, then squeezed his arm. "Maybe someday you'll learn how to be there for the living, not just for the dead.". For him getting better at honouring the living, see the next sections. 4. In the scene were Kaladin saves people from a highstorm by parting the winds with windspren. Kaladin attracts windspren prior to this scene, and he had been talking with syl about right and wrong, honour, and perception. He then has a conversation with a parshman about honour / them protecting humans, “Do Better,” he said to her”These people are your charge now. You’ve seized the city, taken what you want. If you wish to claim any kind of moral superiority, treat your captives better than they did you.” He was talking to people about helping each other reach shelter, then letting them move on as he went to save others. He eventually attracted a hundred windspren, though from the description, this may actually be a windrunner ability, as at the end of it we get this sequence “Kaladin sighed and released the winds, and the spren behind him scattered”. In later scenes, as he nears the 4th Ideal, he doesn’t exercise any control over the windspren. 5. In this section, we’ll see how, as Kaladin almost reaches the 4th ideal, he is thinking about honouring the living, and helping them. He is also thinking that the 2nd ideal must have limitations on it. Kaladin argues with Notom about honouring the living. - He talks about what honour there is in keeping Syl locked up - He talks about what honour there is in Notom killing him - He talks about helping Dalinar (rather than protecting, in this particular passage) Kaladin goes on to think of the 2nd Ideal “The Second Ideal made more direct sense. I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. Straightforward, yes…but overwhelming. The world was a place of suffering. Was he really supposed to try to prevent it all?” Kaladin then thinks of the 3rd ideal, but with no resolution “Who decided what was “right”? Which side was he supposed to protect? “The Fourth Ideal was unknown to him, but the closer he drew to it, the more frightened he became. What would it demand of him?” Windspren then start crystallising around him. “Syl. What is the Fourth Ideal?” You know you have to figure that out on your own, silly…you’re close. Here, Syl alludes that the 4th ideal is closely related to what he has been thinking about, as he’s just about reached it. His directly previous conversation had 2 references to honouring the living, another to helping the living, and almost admitting even if indirectly, that he wasn’t personally meant to “protect them all”. Kaladin and Notom move on to talking about the Bondsmith, and Kaladins need to protect the Bondsmith. He does this with great consideration for Notom. 6. In this section – we see that Kaladin now knows the 4th ideal, but can’t bring himself to say it. He had a single slim hope. Each Ideal he’d spoken had resulted in an outpouring of power and strength. He licked his lips and tried whispering it “I…I will…” He thought of the friends he’d lost (lists names) Say it, storm you! “I…” (more names of the dead) A windspren appeared near him, like a line of light. Then another. The words, say the words ! But Kaladin is not yet ready to let go of 'his responsibility for those deaths'. His saying the 4th ideal must involve in some way, him changing his perception regarding his responsibility to the dead / his view of the lives of the dead (which is currently only 'I failed them'). 7. This section is a continuation of 6, but focused on the living: Kaladin thought, finally, of Dalinar. Could Kaladin do it? Could he really say these words? Could he really mean them? “I …can’t” Kaladin finally whispered, tears streaming down his cheeks. “I can’t lose him, but …oh, Almight…I can’t save him.” He couldn’t say those Words. He wasn’t strong enough. Here, if Kaladin means what he says when he swears to honour the living and the dead: - he must let Dalinar fight the battles that Dalinar chooses to fight – which is honouring the living. The realisation that he must let other people choose to put themselves in harms way is why Kaladin says “I can’t save him” (he still believed that saying the ideal would grant him access to power that may help him get home, then the thoughts that followed “He had a single slim hope.”) - he must let Dalinar do this, despite the danger. Kaladin’s fear of losing people (in his view ‘letting them die’) leads him to say “I can’t lose him”, for if he lost Dalinar, it would mean honouring the dead, and he’s not ready to do that / absolve himself of such a death. So Kaladin, though he is getting there, isn’t quite ready to give up on trying to protect everyone, or to absolve himself of all those deaths that he couldn’t prevent. Hence the lines ‘He couldn’t say those words. He wasn’t strong enough” As the KR who left the gemstone said “Am I not meant to want to help people?” ------------------------ Sanderson has given us a lot of clues, from how progression works, to Kaladins character (in detail), especially Kaladins fears (which relate directly to why he can’t say the 4th ideal), to what Kaladin is thinking each time he attracted windspren, to what Kaladin was thinking as approached the fourth ideal, to what Kaladin was thinking when he knew the 4th ideal but couldn't say it. I think there's enough consistency among the clues to say that the 4th ideal will be something close to “I will honour the living and the dead”

Just a comment on a number of posts early in the thread – that assumed that the shame Rock felt was from Rock, as a shardbearer, avoiding his responsibility as a king. This is wrong – Rock did not (possibly) obtain shards until almost the end of Oathbringer. This conversation happened before the halfway mark. So that conversation cannot be about Rock being ashamed of not assuming leadership after / because of having acquired a shardblade. What we know, is that the shame must be directly related to the conversation he is having with Song. Here it is in it’s entirety (minus irrelevant general conversation). “Your note was so terse. Kef’ha is dead, but what happneded to you? Why so long without word?” He bowed his head. How could he explain this? The bridge runs, the cracks in his soul. How could he explain that the man she’d always said was so strong had wished to die? Had been a coward, had given up, near the end? What of Tifi and Sinaku'a?" She asked him. "Dead." he whispered. "They raised their weapons in vengeance." She put her hand to her lips. She wore a glove on her safe-hand, in deference to silly Vorin traditions. "Then you__" "I am a chef now," Lunamor said, firm. "But--" "I cook, Tuaka." …general conversation… “You are wise to usher us forward. Wise as ever.” “No, my love,” he whispered. “I am a fool. I would blame the air, but I was a foold above too. A fool to ever lef Kef’ha leave on this errand of stupidity.” …(he was) Glad the other mind did not speak it. For if they did, they might have picked out the lies that he had told them. That’s the entirety of the of the conversation that may: - Reveal what he was a shamed of; and - give away lies that Rock told. The lies must at least be able to be implied from the conversation, because that is what Rock is worried about. That specific conversation giving away lies that he has told. ------ We should first rule out the lie(s) as being Rocks statements about the birth order of Sons determining occupation, as it is entirely unbelievable that he would make ‘that’ the lie. Other horneaters are uncommon, but not unknown, so such a lie would always come to be known. And there also seems no point to making up such a lie. What does it benefit him, at all? However, there slight lie, where despite your occupation, you are allowed to fight, if necessary (more on this later). ----- The lies he told to Bridge 4 don’t appear to be related to leadership, as this does not explain the degree of shame he feels. Such a ‘lie’ would only be a lie of omission at worst – nothing particularly problematic to Bridge 4, and would be rather understandable to them, given the severe trauma involved in surviving as a bridgeman, and how they used to hide their pasts. Seriously, who here would hold such against a person who went through a nightmare like bridgerunning. And as a reminder, his possible acquisition of shards occurs after this conversation, so any leadership controversy must have already occurred before this conversation with his wife. ----- We also know that Rock thought of himself as a soldier, rather than a leader. Kaladin was wrong; Lunamor hadn't become a cook. He'd always been one, since he could toddle up the step-stool to the counter and stick his fingers in the sticky dough. Yes, he'd once trained with a bow. But soldiers needed to eat, and nuatoma guards each did several jobs, even guards with his particular heritage and blessings. So Rock thinks of himself as a soldier – as a guard to the nuatoma (presumably the leader), who could cook. This was because guards needed to be multiskilled, not because his occupation was as a cook. So when Rock tells himself he was always a cook, he is playing word games (ie Lying). His always being a cook is true only as a technicality, rather than being culturally or occupationally true. So none of this shouts at leadership. However, we know that Rock thought he could prevent his Nuatoma from coming down ‘on this fools errand’. Some say this is because Rock, as a Soldier / guard of the Nuatoma, had more authority than the Nuatoma…which makes no apparent sense whatsoever. Would it not make more sense that Rock was good would words and felt he could prevent this ‘fools errand’ that way? So again we have no strong argument for leadership. However, we know that some of Rocks family who resisted, died in the attempt to duel Sadeas, and we know that two important people died seeking vengeance against Sadeas: “Lunamor had known what might happen when he chose to come down from the Peaks with Kef’ha. No nuatoma from the Peaks had ever yet won a Shardblade or Shardplate from the Alethi or Vedens they challenged. Still, Kaf’ha had determined the cost was wroth the risk. At worst he had thought he would end up dead, and his family would become servants to a wealthy lowlander. They hadn’t anticipated the cruelty of Torol Sadeas, who had murdered Kef’ha without a proper duel, killed many of Lunamor’s family who resisted, and seized his property. Lunamor roared, charging forward, and his skin started to glow…” (note: from Rock roaring at this precise point, we can assume Rock feels great anger at this event, as he should) ---- What of Tifi and Sinaku'a?" She asked him. "Dead." he whispered. "They raised their weapons in vengeance." And we know that Rock told Kaladin that his two brothers were alive: Kaladin chuckled, handing Lunamor his cup. Then he leaned in. “What happened to your brother, Rock?” “My two brothers are well, so far as I know.” “And the third brother?” Kaladin said. “The one who died, moving you from fourth to third, and making you a cook instead of a solider? Don't deny it.” Perhaps the Nuatoma was Rocks eldest brother, and the two others were his two elder brothers. The shame Rock felt would not be at not taking leadership. He had already known he may become property. And as mentioned previously, bridge 4 would certainly understand any lies he told about that, especially as it was so explainable (his nuatoma came down knowing he may lose and Rock become a slave). So again, we run up against the issue, that the shame Rock feels can hardly be related to leadership. However, things becomes very understandable if the shame Rock feels is viewed from the point of view of his actions or (more particularly) his in-actions during the slaying of his Nuatoma. - Why would Rock, as a guard of his Nuatoma, tolerate the murder of his Nuatoma? - Then, If Tifi and Sinaku'a were guards or important people, who themselves sought to avenge their Nuatoma’s murder - The question would have to be raised ‘why did Rock not follow their example?’ - And yet, If Tifi and Sinaku’a were Rocks brothers, and sought vengeance, even though they weren’t solders, then the question would have to be asked ‘why would Rock, as the Soldier, not defend them?’ and after they were slaughters, why did Rock not avenge them? Them being brothers brings other problems. If it were his brothers, why were they seeking vengeance through fighting, if they weren’t allowed? (perhaps a lie of omission – eg. All are allowed to fight, but their occupation is ####) No matter which way you look at it, questions arise from Rocks lack of action, and just about everything he says about him being a cook (obviously a lie), and not allowed to fight (appears to be a lie), appears to ease his shame over not acting, and these are the lies that he does not wish Bridge 4 to find out about. Rocks great shame, is that he was a coward. P.S. I really like Rocks character. I just don't think that Brandon is trying to write a perfect world. I think that all characters are allowed to have flaws, and this is one of them - one that I'm not even particularly critical of - few of us would know, if we grew up in such a society, which way we would jump until the moment we faced such. I'm simply pointing out what seems obvious to me

Just prior to that conversation, Rock moroses over being broken, and wanting to die (when he was a bridgeman). Very shortly after that conversation, Rock thinks he is glad that the other bridgemen can't speak horneater, because then they would know of the lies he told them. The context for that entire passage is that he is very clearly ashamed.

Alright, slightly controversial heading, but I was doing a reread of Oathbringer, and I came across this passage, where Rock's wife is speaking with him: "What of Tifi and Sinaku'a?" She asked him. "Dead." he whispered. "They raised their weapons in vengeance." She put her hand to her lips. She wore a glove on her safe-hand, in deference to silly Vorin traditions. "Then you__" "I am a chef now," Lunamor said, firm. "But--" "I cook, Tuaka." This conversation is in relation to Rock descending from the peaks with his master (whatever he was called) who challenged Sadeas in order to try and obtain shardplate. Of course in Rock's culture, only 4th Son's fight. And earlier in Oathbringer, Kaladin is talking to Rock about how his third brother died, saying words along the lines of "I know you had a third brother Rock. You were a soldier once, don't deny it", and Rock did not wish to speak any more of that. And of course we have previously seen Rock's skill with a bow. The very strong inference from Rock's conversation with his wife though, is that she expected him to fight, and did not expect him to be 'just a cook' now. P.S. I did a search of Rock (plus a few variables), and came up with 165 pages, so please excuse me if this has previously been posted.

The only source we have of the 5th ideal originates in Nale/Nin - with talk of the higher power of the 5th ideal. So that certainly suggests special powers. He does not mention the 5th ideal only in relation to skybreakers - he attaches no order name to the discussion (that I remember). Other than his mentioning the 5th ideal, I'm pretty sure all other mentions of the KR throughout the books speak of only 4 ideals. That makes the 5th rare. Besides, I thought it obvious my post was speculation - as likely is every answer to the OP endgame question - as we're still in the early stages of the books.

Probably the 5th ideal. Knights Radiant commonly swore only 4, but there is a fifth, though we don't know exactly what swearing a 5th achieves. My guess is that it could enable the destruction of the world, but it may also be the salvation of the world...so long as the wielder quickly achieves what he has to achieve, then dies. Likley it would take a windrunner to achieve that - to protect, but that protection requiring your life (sort of reminds me of Shainarians in WoT)

Progression can go two ways - you could grow into a better you, or you could also go down the path of growing into the evil you. Possibilities for this path (they certainly havent gown down the 'perfection path' include Moash, Eshonai and Taravangian. All of those characters are fairly interesting.

I wonder why anyone would think that 'each book focuses on a different character'? Because Sanderson said so? It's almost impossible to have a coherent storyline if: - THE major character (of each book) keeps falling off the face of the earth to become a bit player for the rest of the series; and - We only get the story from the new major players perspective I guess Sanderson could have used Dalinar/Jasnah/Taravangian/Hoid etc to tie the story thread together, and keep Dal/Jas/Tar etc bit players...but...he planned on some of them having their own flashback sequences.. Shallans character does to me seem rather less substantial than Kaladin's. I don't think that Sanderson could have done huge amounts with her flashbacks. Being broken by your family is quite different (to write about) to being broken by your own principles / your brothers death / slavery / bridge running. Same with character development - Shallan dealt with being broken by burying it and putting on a face - it is so much harder to relate that to character development than Kaladin's open/honest/truthful perspective (you see the difference right?). But even Shallan's scenes for 'advancing' are much less dire/imminent/impactful than Kaladins. To me WoR makes Shallan a little properly interesting, but it is only OB where Shallans character becomes more interesting. I think Sanderson did an alright job, but painted himself into a corner with Shallan's character type. In many ways, during the first two books, she reminded me of the girls in Wheel of Time (that's not a good thing in my view). In comparison, Jasnah is currently much more interesting, even though she gets so much less screen time.

Has anyone considered that the easiest way for Mt T to become 'King of Everything' is to Ally with Dalinar, unite the world, then Knife Dalinar in the Back (so to speak)? Even though he tried to do so through assassination, the point of that (in Jah Kaved) was to create a situation so that other people would do his work for him...and he'd then come in and take over...

Ah for some reason I thought they were hunting sja-anat. Wasn't Sja-anat the only one able to raise Thunderclasts?