eveorjoy

I think Dalinar will run Urithru under Alethi law until he learns what KR law would be. Alethi law is so crazy. Had Adolin killed Sadeas coldly in an arena no one would have batted an eye at it. On the other hand it is clear why Bridge Four didn't try offing Sadeas. Look what happened to Kaladin for just insulting a Lighteyes and the only reason he wasn't punished more harshly was Dalinar intervening.

I never thought of Adolin killing Sadeas as cold-blooded. A cold-blooded murder is committed without emotion in a business like manner. The only cold-blooded killer we have seen in the books so far is Jasnah. She killed four men and then chatted about philosophy calmly with Shallan afterward, using the event as an object lesson. Even if you agree with her putting herself in harm's way so she could kill in defense is was still a cold-blooded act. Adolin, on the other hand, was emotionally wrung out when he killed Sadeas and in shock when it was over. I also don't see Shallan's act as any worse than Adolin's. Everytime she killed she was protecting herself or her brothers in that moment. In fact, each time she killed she or her brothers were in more immediate danger than Adolin and Dalinar were of Sadeas when Adolin killed him.

I got both the audiobook and the Kindle edition of WoR on release. The audiobook edition was available two or three hours after I downloaded my Kindle edition, IIRC. So I assume the same will be the case this time.

Why were the friends of the Herdazian who regrew his arm scared of him now? Because he was arm-full.

Dalinar may be harsh at first, but I don't think he will stay angry for long. He will be sad and maybe hurt that Adolin wasn't what he thought he was, but Dalinar is a very loving father. I think after one possible blow up, he will try to work it out with Adolin. He might need to talk it over with Navani first and I do think Kaladin and Shallan would try to talk Dalinar down as well. The biggest problem is a faction led by Ialai and others will demand justice. So Dalinar will need to let Adolin get away to keep everyone united. it is possible Kaladin will get Adolin out and Adolin won't realize his father is behind the escape. He may go into hiding thinking his father is a lot angrier than he is, but if Dalinar held a grudge he would be a massive hypocrite. No, he would not take the blame. Roshar needs Dalinar too much. I agree with your two phases, but phase one will be very brief.

If the Roshar wasn't falling apart, I think they would get enough evidence to show Adolin felt threatened by Sadeas. This meeting in the hall is not the first time Sadeas approached and provoked Adolin. he did so before in front of witnesses. However, with things as crazy as they are and so many forces either distrusting or outright working against the Kholin house, evidence will be harder to find. However, if Adolin could get off that easily there would be no conflict. I think if Adolin's crime is discovered in this book, he will need to leave Urithru for one reason or another. I don't think Dalinar will be as harsh on Adolin as everyone thinks he will be. At the most, he will worry his son is going down the same path he did. However, I think after talking it over with Kaladin, Shallan, and Navani he will come around. Still, until Adolin's act is discovered, Dalinar will be looking doggily for the killer and speaking ill of who ever did this. That will put even more pressure on Adolin. I just hope Kaladin won't be blamed for this in some way. People might assume he claimed to be going to rescue his parents when he really was fleeing from his crime. Though Kaladin being accused might be what prompts Adolin to come clean. At the moment, Kaladin is far more important to Roshar than Adolin and Adolin knows this. I just hope Kaladin left early enough to have an alibi.

Sigh... I didn't see the edit before I replied. I agree that the law would protect Adolin and he would at worst spend some time in a hospital being evaluated nothing more. I think this argument isn't leading anywhere and I think we agree for the most part where Adolin is concerned. So I am just going to drop it now.

Sorry, not vigilante justice. Instead, you should be judge and jury if someone is out to get you and yours in your mind. I hope you are always right.

Oh yes, he would hospitalize and should be. I think both he and Kaladin suffer from PSTD at the very least. However, most heroes from fantasy stories likely need some mental health care.

I guess you didn't read my latest post yet where mention that I spoke to a lawyer who told me that Adolin would be found innocent of murder in our legal system, so much of what I said is based on wrong assumptions anyway. It seems your argument is that when the system fails us vigilante justice is the only recourse. Maybe... I just think to kill to remove problem people can lead to other issues. At this point, even in the modern world, Adolin would be found innocent so it is hard to argue against his actions. Thus I admit I was wrong.

As you are going to see in coming flashbacks, Dalinar was worse than you think. He has changed quite a bit. I think Dalinar hoped that if he could change so could Sadeas. I think Dalinar did not consider everything it took to change him. As the book goes on and Dalinar thinks through his life, he might realize Sadeas was never going to change. That way when he realizes Adolin killed Sadeas he will not be angry with his son and allow him to escape.

Okay those who feel Adolin did the right thing you are going to love this. I spoke with a lawyer friend about Adolin's situation. He agreed with you. Even in our modern world, if someone were in Adolin's situation he would likely be found innocent for reasons of temporary insanity caused by extreme duress. So there you go. I can admit when I am wrong. However, I still think the event will break him so he can invest. I also think Alethi law is not as compassionate as American law. I think when the truth comes out, Dalinar won't blame him, but he might need to exile him. I guess we will see.

Random comment. Even though I stand by my comment that Adolin did something wrong in killing Sadeas, I think Kaladin will buy Adolin a drink when he finds out. He will be storming happy about it. Kaladin's best friends and squires include murderers, remember? So, he won't be upset with Adolin for killing Sadeas. He, however, might be worried for him and have to help him escape Alethi justice.

I hope so.

Part One may be shorter than the rest of the book. Part one is normally set up and there is less to set up here. This may be why Tor allowed the whole of part one to be released. It's all good. I will take what I can get.

This I agree with.

You really want Amaram to be an elsecaller don't you. I get it. Odium is not evil and good and bad have nothing to do with it. Okay, so when Jasnah gets to Urithru I will so enjoy the chapters where she kills everyone who might threaten her family and the Knight's Radiant even a slight problem because her order is okay with that. There has to be some standard otherwise why not allow Odium to destroy Roshar? I think we will just need to agree to disagree.

You just don't like calling it murder, do you. Sigh. That is a modern legal definition. You need to judge Adolin by Alethi law not our laws. Maybe the Alethikar has a law that would call it voluntary manslaughter. In that case then yes, I would agree. It is still a crime. Less wrong, maybe, but still a wrong. I'm not saying Sadeas's murder isn't a gray area. It is, but that does not make the act a good thing either. I love Dalinar. I hope he is able to unite Roshar. I love him even after I reading his flashback chapter. Dalinar is a murderer who is trying to change and has succeeded quite a bit. Saying Adolin did the wrong thing in killing Sadeas does not make him a bad person. There are reasons for his actions that are understandable. He still did something wrong. If it was the right thing to do they should have sent an assassin on Sadeas as soon as they got all the Bridgeman out of his camp.

You don't know much about the legal system in America at least. Someone shoots a bullet into your house, you call the police. They will look for someone causing a public nuisance. They may not find them, but the crime will still be investigated. They come back and shoot fifty bullets into your house and you recognize who it was, the police will be arresting them for manslaughter at the very least. So the next scenario would not happen. If you shoot a man at your door is that legal, well that depends on the laws of the state you are in. However, if you think you aren't going to need a lawyer after you shoot someone at your front door you are very naive. However, the argument doesn't fit with Adolin's situation at all. It is completely an emotional defense. It is the same argument of a mob boss. If the enemy threatens one of yours you kill one of theirs. Would Sadeas have succeeded in causing Dalinar trouble? Maybe, maybe not. Was it legal for Adolin to kill Sadeas? Not by Alethkar's laws. Was it moral to kill Sadeas? Now that is the question? If it was moral to kill someone who was causing you trouble then Sadeas trying to kill Dalinar would also be a moral act. Why is Dalinar's life more precious than Sadeas? Because he is the good guy and Sadeas is the bad guy? Okay, one more example from our time. Should Jack Ruby have been put on trial for killing Lee Harvey Oswald, the man who killed President Kennedy? By your standard, Ruby should have been given a metal. Well, then it is shame Moash said anything to Kaladin at all. Killing Elhokar would have been fine. Accept it would have been against the law and therefore murder by a legal definition. Further Kaladin promised no one that he would not kill Amaram. Why was Syl against him doing that? Why did she want him to follow the legal path and tell Dalinar? How was Sadeas anymore dishonorable than Amaram? Why is it honorable to kill a man for saying a threat in a dark hall when he is not acting on said threat at that moment? Why are people so bothered by calling what Adolin did murder? There is such a thing as crimes of passion or murder without premeditation. By America laws this is called 2nd degree murder. By Alethi law, Adolin committed murder. And thank you for giving Adolin yet another way he could have handled the situation. He could have called for a duel. Actually what Adolin should have done is kept his cool and told his father what Sadeas said. They then could have decided what to do at that point. But Adolin lost his cool and killed a man. The only reason everyone avoids calling the act murder is that Adolin, a character we like, killed Sadeas, a character he hate. Had Adolin told Sadeas, we have you on such and such charges and will soon bring you down, and then Sadeas killed him would you still say it was not murder?

Elhokar is criminally incompetent and he did order the death of someone we know for a petty reason. WoR chapter 58 "Never Again," page 676. Elhokar is talking about what Kaladin's punishment should be for insulting Amaram and ruining their chance at Sadeas. Kaladin wasn't put on the chopping block or in the noose because Dalinar intervened. You think that was the only time Elhokar sentenced someone to death because he was bitter? I'm glad we agree about the rest. However, how did Dalinar deal with Amaram? He intends to put him on trial if the world ever calms down enough. Sadeas could have been put on trial. It would have been hard, but Elhokar was in his rights to do so. They didn't because they had no Highprinces on their side. Well in Urithru they likely would have had more Highprinces. If Sadeas had tried to pull anything, time for trial. Or maybe just charge him for abandoning Dalinar at the tower. That is treason. They had enough Highprinces to support such an action now. That would have legally solved the problem. It would have been harder, but then Sadeas death would not have been murder. Most murderers are not psychopaths. Murder is often done because a person is in the way somehow in the murderer's mind. Here is the biggest test. Both Kaladin and Adolin killed have killed many times in the first two books. In the situations where Kaladin killed, if you replace the person who died at Kaladin's hand in those circumstances would it change the act into murder? Kaladin is on the battlefield rushing to rescue Dalinar from an army of Herdasians or Horneaters instead of Parshendi. Does this change make Kaladin's actions no longer killing to save someone but in fact murder? In fact, we will need to consider this question as soon as Shallan realizes Kalladin killed her brother, but I digress. Now let's look at the scene in the hall with Adolin and Sadeas. Adolin killed Sadeas because he did not like what he heard Sadeas say. It pushed him over the edge. Okay, change Sadeas to Renarin. Same event. Renarin says something that pushes Adolin over the edge and Adolin kills him. With just that one change does that make Adolin's actions murder? It is not who died that matters. It is the action and the motivations behind the action that is important. Yay! Sadeas is gone. Be happy, but be aware he was still murdered.

Alright, then why was it wrong to kill Elhokar, an awful king who has led to the death of many? Or Amaram who killed and stole for the power of a Shardblade? In fact, Dalinar you will soon see was often as bad as Sadeas. Maybe Sadeas was right to remove him thinking he would save the kingdom and Elhokar by getting Dalinar out of the way. He wasn’t lying. In TWoKs his goals were the preservation of Alethkar. That changed in WoR because he thought Elhokar was a lost cause and Alethkar would be better off with a strong man at its head, just as Galivar had been before the visions. I think it funny how people on here say calling Adolin act a gray area that we should ignore good and evil and yet are quick to think of Sadeas as an evil snake. Sadeas was no more evil than Amaram, young Dalinar, or young Galivar. Calling Adolin's act for what it is does not make him evil. But we can't just think of it as something like killing Parshendi on the battlefield. The act will break Adolin and that will lead him to become an KR eventually. If it was just another killing then it would not affect him anymore than those Adolin killed on the battlefield.

Kaladin was killing to protect at that moment. Had the Parshendi or the Lighteyes not been attacking his men then Kaladin would not have killed them. Had Sadeas attacked first then it would not have been murder. But Adolin attacked first with the intent to kill. The person being murdered does not make the act anyless murder. I love Adolin and I don't think he is a cold-blooded killer. This is a crime of passion or Adolin went temporarily crazy. It is still murder. And if that murder is justified, Syl should have had no problem with Kaladin marching up to Amaram and stabbing him in the gut. There were other ways to deal with Sadeas.

You can have sympathy for someone but still call their act for what it is. Temporary insanity fine, Adolin can have that. That does not make his act less wrong, it just makes him less culpable.

I didn't say Nale was moral. My point was Amaram would not be accepted as a Skybreaker because he broke the law. Nale doesn't care about morality, but he does care about legality. If Amaram were to change and be willing to follow Dalinar and the oaths of a spren he would more likely be an Elsecaller. I still think he has a long way to go. Also Jasnah doesn't like him very much so she might be annoyed they are in the same order.

Nothing wrong with that.