Duskshard

That's just semantics, if you're burning metals unconsciously, whether you're asleep or awake, it's the same thing as burning them instinctively, asleep or awake. When you're awake you're likely to burn more metals instinctively because more metals are of use to you, but as you said, pewter is about the only metal to give you benefits while you sleep so it stands to reason that those who can burn it do so instinctively in their sleep. While other metals that aren't of use while you sleep aren't burned. That doesn't mean that these other metals can't be burned instinctively while you sleep, just that there's no reason for you're body to burn them. For someone like Spook however who's body has become reliant on burning tin, it would be beneficial to him for his body to burn tin while he sleeps.

How is it different? Whether you're awake or asleep your not consciously burning metals.

Vin was burning pewter and tin unconsciously when marsh first detected her messing with his emotions.

We know that some shot is pushed out by healing, we don't know that it all is. It could be that just the shot at the surface is pushed out by the healing, and the shot deeper in stays embedded. If Miles' healing pushed out everything then he wouldn't of had to rip his mask free so that his eye could heal properly, his eye would of just healed and pushed the bits of fabric out. This is consistent with 1 and 2 of my original post.

This is how I see Feruchemical gold working in this regard. 1/ The faster you heal the more likely you are to heal over smaller objects leaving them in your body. If you heal a bit slower those smaller objects will be pushed out as you heal from the inside out. 2/ If you're stabbed with something, and you have enough health stored, it will be pushed out as long as part of the object is still sticking out from the body, if the object isn't sticking out of the body - see number 1 3/ If something pierces the skin and come back out (earring,spear, slivers of metal) then it won't be pushed out by healing because the healing can't apply force to either end of the object piercing the skin, so the skin will just heal around it. In this case objects need to be physically removed before full healing can occur.

So this is my little theory on Hoid, OK maybe not a theory but musings, and bare in mind that this is coming from someone who has only yet read Mistborn and Stormlight, and is only slowly learning about the cosmere from reading this forum, while at the same time trying to avoid blundering onto too many spoilers from the books I've yet to read. Here it goes: I think that when Adonalsium was whole Hoid was either created to be, or always was the conscious cognitive aspect of Adonalsium, and when it was shattered into 16 pieces and spread throughout the galaxy Hoid as we know him know is what was left. I think he's on a mission to reunite the shards for whatever Adonalsium's purpose was, maybe only Hoid knows. Maybe he's the one who shattered it in the first place because he couldn't fulfill it's purpose in the state it was in, and so is attempting to reforge Adonalsium into a form to achieve this. He could be collecting little pieces of the different shards essence, i.e. the lerasium bead, so that he can attune himself to the power of that shard as it is now, so that when the time comes he can wield the new Adonalsium that he creates. Like I said, these are just some idle musings from someone who doesn't know much about the cosmere yet.

Thanks for clearing that up guys, appreciate it.

I don't think that just because the bracers pierced the skin that makes them hemalurgic, or has Brandon said otherwise?

No, what I'm saying in a scenario like that is that because the coin is on the ground and you can't push the earth away, you instead push yourself away, so the lighter you are the faster you push yourself away. No, if both objects weight the same then both are thrown back equally, the distance thrown back would be dependent upon the allomantic strength of the push between the two objects. I see what you're saying here, at least I think I do, but what I was trying to describe was that when two allomancers push off an object much heavier than them then the one that weighs less will accelerate away faster. Didn't you say this was correct or am I confusing myself. My head hurts now, so I think I'll go watch the F1 grand prix and the tennis final.

If you braced yourself against the earth and pushed on a mountain, you wouldn't be assuming the weight of the earth to push that against the mountain. You would be pushing against two objects whose weight far exceeds your own and would be crushed between them. I agree there is an upper limit. A limit based of a persons allomantic strength and the difference in weight between the person doing the pushing and the object their pushing against. Well that's what I've been saying all along, that the lighter you are the faster you accelerate, and physics apparently backs me up. Phantom seemed to be arguing the opposite on that point, that being lighter would give you less acceleration.

When referring to force, I've been talking about the power of an allomantic push. When I refer to weight, I'm referring the weight being thrown around by the power of the allomantic push. So if you steel pushed a coin it would zip away, now if you went to push on a car and you increased your weight so that the difference in weight between you and the car was the same as the difference between you and the coin when you pushed that. Would the car not zip away at the same speed as the coin did? I haven't studied physics, and maybe I'm just stupid, but I would of thought that if you pushed against two different sized objects with the same allomantc strength and the same weight difference between you and both objects then they would both speed away at the same velocity. If my understanding is wrong, how would physics explain why Wax's pushes effect him more greatly when he's lighter?

We both agree that increasing weight enhances the ability to steel push, what we don't seem to agree upon is the way it's enhanced. You seem to think that increasing your weight by multiples increases the power of your push by the same, or there a bouts. While I think the force of the allomantic push is the same and what changes is the weight being thrown. Imagine throwing a stone and a building away from you with the same force, whoever gets hit by the stone would be badly hurt, possibly killed, but whatever got hit by the building would be devastated, Both of our viewpoints are valid explanations for the devastating effect of Wax's weight enhanced push on the hideout. Where our viewpoints disagree is how weight effects a push when you're pushing yourself away from an object. You maintain that being heavier gives you greater power to push off objects with greater force. I maintain that his pushes have a greater effect on him when he's lighter. I showed that this was true in the quote "Just as when he was lighter a push effected him greatly" and then he put this into practice by making himself lighter while holding Steris and pushing them up and out of the hideout some forty feet in the air. "He made himself incredibly light and pushed more strongly off the nails below. The two of them shot up through the hole he'd made propelled some forty feet in the air" Now if making himself heavier gave him more power to push himself, then that's what he would of done here. He not only had to lift himself, but Steris as well, so more pushing power would be ideal. What he does instead is make himself lighter. This seems to support my viewpoint that his allomancy is more effective at moving him around when he's lighter.

When you push the boulder while weighing 100x the normal, you're push isn't 100x stronger. It's the strength of the allomantic push plus the difference in weight between you and the boulder. So if at 100x you weigh a good bit more than the boulder then you'll throw the boulder with the force of your allomancy, the closer you are in weight to the boulder less you're able to push it and the more it pushes you back. In your example you're not pushing against the weight of the boulder, you're pushing against the weight of the world. Since that weighs quite a bit more than 10,000 kg you don't stand a chance of moving it, so you have to move instead. So the weight you have to lift of the ground is 10,000 kg against gravity. Now I think it's a lot easier to push 50 kg against gravity, rather than 10,000 kg.

No, because your weight does't effect your allomantic strength, and you're not pushing the object, you're being pushed away from the object, and the weight you're pushing away from the object is your own. So you'll be pushed away harder if you weigh less than if you were heavier. OK imagine it this way, you're Wax and you increase your weight to that of a building. You drop a coin on the ground and you push off it vertically. Now because the coin is on the ground the weight you're pushing against is the weight of the world. So the weight Wax has to lift of the ground is the weight of a building. Are you really saying that he would push off the ground easier and faster at that weight than if his weight was normal body weight?

Only when you're pushing on objects that weight less that you. No, see this is the point I've being arguing. When the object you're pushing off is heavier than you are then what you're pushing is your own weight. So the lighter you are the easier you're moved and the faster you are launched away from the object. What would accelerate away from you faster, a coin or bike?

Yes I agree with that, the difference in weight will be applied to the boulder and it would be thrown. I haven't been arguing otherwise. Would you agree that if Wax made himself half the weight of another coin shot and they both pushed off the boulder, Wax would accelerate twice as fast as the other coin shot, assuming they both had the same allomantic strength.

I don't see what you're arguing here, how did what I say not tie in with action and reaction?

He's just standing there to start with until he decreases his weight to a point that the weight of the boulder starts to force him back, and as he get lighter still he gets thrown back faster and faster without increasing the strength of his allomantic push. What's important is the weight difference between you and the object you're trying to move. If your weight is greater, then the difference between you and the object will be applied to the object. If your weight is less than the object then the difference will be applied against you.

Yes in the case of Vin and Kelsier, Vin would be able to hover higher because of her stronger allomancy. If both Vin and Kelsier had the same allomantic strength then Vin would still be higher but the height difference would be negligible. The advantage of weight difference only apply's when the object being pushed upon the lighter than the one doing the pushing. When the the object being pushed upon is greater in weight to you (say for example the object weights a ton) then the weight applied to the push isn't your own anymore but that of the object, and the lighter you are the faster you accelerate away. EDIT: Imagine you're Wax and in front of you is a huge boulder with a metal fasting embedded in it. You increase your weight to a good bit more than the boulder and start to push upon the boulder with an allomantic strength of 10. Now the huge boulder is grinding across the ground away from you, if you increased your weight more the boulder would speed up as you brought more weight to bare upon it. But if you were to go the other way and gradually decrease your weight the boulder would stop moving and you would start to stumble back as your weight approached that of the boulder. Once your weight fell under that of the boulder you would start to be pushed back faster and faster as your weight decreased until you reached the limit of your allomantic ability. All the while keeping the same allomantic force (10) against the boulder.

By weight behind a push I simple mean their weight, or more accurately the difference in weight between the one doing the pushing and the object being pushed upon. In you scenario Kelsier would embed the nail farther, but to take that scenario farther, if they were both applying the same allomantic force to their push then Vin would slow to a stop first, and if they continued to push with the same force she would accelerate back up faster than him.

No contradiction at all. Being 100 pounds heavier doesn't give a stronger allomantic push, what it does is put an extra 100 pounds behind that push. My example wasn't Kelsier and Vin, just two generic people. Let me try again to make myself clear. Say the allomancers have an allomantic max power of (10), one is 100 pounds and the other 200. Being heavier doesn't let you push with lets say an allomantic power of (15) it just adds an extra 100 pounds of weight behind a push. This gives both advantages and disadvantages in certain situations. Let me use cars as an example of what I'm trying to convey. If you have two cars with the same horse power, ones made of heavy materials the other with lightweight materials. In a drag race the lighter one will get of the line first with much faster acceleration and will generally be more maneuverable, but chain them together back to back and have them pull against each other the heavier one will pull the lighter one. So in summary: Your allomantic power isn't affected by your weight. The heavier you are the more weight you can put behind a push or pull. Being lighter will give you faster acceleration of a push or pull.

I haven't read all of this thread yet, but what I have read seem to be a back and forth between whether weight makes you allomantically stronger so I thought I'd weigh in. Weight doesn't make you allomantically stronger, you're allomantic strength is fixed regardless of weight. The strengh of a push doesn't change, just the weight applied to that push. Let me give some examples; Imagine two allomancers of equal allomantic strength, one weighs 100 pounds and the other 200 pounds. Now if they both dropped a coin on the ground and pushed of vertically as hard as they could at the exact same time then the one who only weighs 100 pounds would travel up faster. This happens because they are both pushing on an object heavier then themselves (the earth) and the lighter one has less weight to lift of the ground. Now imagine that same two allomancers got into a pushing match, they both push on a coin between them and they both get thrown back because they're both of similar weights, but the lighter one gets thrown with greater force because the heavier one is able to apply 100 pounds of extra weight behind his allomantic push. Now imagine they both hit an immovable object feet first and use that to brace themselves and continue the push, the lighter ones legs would buckle and they would be crushed against the object they were braced against. Because their allomancy is equal the deciding factor is the weight they can each put behind their push, in this example one has 100 pounds of extra force they're able to apply. So basically weight doesn't give you greater allomantic strength but rather lets you use your allomantic strength on things that are lighter than you. Conversely if you greatly increase your weight and push on an object that is still heavier than you, then you won't be thrown back with the same force as you would of if you hadn't greatly increased your weight.

TLR spoke into the minds of his companions while he still held the power of the well and made them that offer, they accepted and were made mistwraiths.

Thanks.