Robinski

Excellent! As a general aside to anyone listening. The lounge, as you may or may not have gathered, is for discussing any old thing at all; it doesn't have to be writing related, as you would quickly realise if you'd seen any of the many, many... many posts about Lego a few months back.

The critiquing gods smile, and the faint sounds of typewriters clacking can be heard on the wind........

Comments. Aiming to avoid grammering all over the place. (page 2) - "She could control the voices, with the P’s help. They would not take her over again. Except they were lessened when her boyfriend and her brother were close" - Confusing, there are like four different positions here. Not sure which it is. (page 3) - "In the silence, she missed the usual babble" - Contradiction. The maj cause the babble, therefore their absence causes the silence, surely? - Her going straight into that change without thinking about it beforehand is a good change (I feel it was premeditated last draft). (page 15) - "They would converge on her if she was not" - They seemed to converge on her anyway, in this form. (page 22) - She thinks whether she has had a thought before and I must admit I thought at that point 'Good question.' This chapter does feel fairly repetitive in places. There are lots of questions thrown out. There are 61 question marks in this chapter. That is a lot of pondering and inquiring. I found it quite tiring after a bit, because there are no answers, only question after question. (page 23) - "They were looking for something" - the diadem, I'm thinking. (page 28) - I enjoy the big Ar trying to take over, and it forcing En to attack the other El. In then like the transformation to make the arms, and how that works as a weapon, and then ultimately how she cows it. Very good. This is the kind of clear exercise of personality that I was missing in a big chunk of the paragraph earlier, when she is running around. I can see it was necessary, but wonder if it might be shorter, and flow a bit better. (page 29) - "every street she passed had more El" - This is the kind of concentration of the creatures that we have not seen before, I feel, which is what I was 'cringing' (lol), earlier when people were talking about the Imp being full, when clearly it was nothing like full. This is much more what I expect full to sound like, in description. (page 33) - "That was how she saw the tiny speck spit out of the N wall and begin to fall" - the timing here is just too crazily coincidental, IMO. Okay, turns out she has not been away for days, but only minutes, I think, but be in the right place at PRECISELY the right moment... Its so unlikely. I'd prefer her to see him already falling, or to be in the air for a little while before he emerges, to make this convincing. (page 34) - "talons the length of his legs" - Eh? Seems way longer the necessary. The talons are not the important park, surely, Birds do have toes, and are those not what would wrap around, and then the talon (a foot or two long), stop him from falling out? This sounded wrong to me. - Oh, of course, it was days for S in the wall. I remember. - "Can you pass back through the wall?" - Oh, no, please deity, don't go back through, please. We finally got here, finally!!! (page 35) - Really nice closing image. I finally feel that S has now has mastery, or good ability, in crossing through the wall. I must say though that is about the only thing that seems to have come from this chapter. Overall Lots of good movement in this chapter, but the initial part was frustrating when En was just running around as she did not seem to learn anything for some time, until the big Ar tried to take over. I enjoyed it much more from that point, and think that cutting the earlier part of the chapter would pay dividends in terms of pacing. I was dismayed when they went back into the wall, because they have been striving for all that time to get here. Okay, En has seen a lot and they have a lot to talk about, but it feels like going back again. I really, really need to see these three make some concrete progress in something in the next chapter. I will be super frustrated if they go back to sitting around moping about the hard choices they have. Just achieve something already! I liked a lot about this chapter, and actually read through it pretty quickly for me. In no small part due to (yes) not obsessing overly about word choice, etc. Still, small amount of LBLs sent just for the form, don't you know. Thanks for sharing

well, that twisted my head for one... I'm sure there's a reason for the restaurant to burn down, but this is a fun idea This is a good point: not something I considered as a I read. I get that most would be depressed and defeated, and that Car would be in that number, but it would play more realistically, and give Car and may Ir someone to play off in that scene, if at least one person was angry. 'How could this happen, someone must have done something?' - 'Let it go, X. It's hopeless. Getting everyone riled up won't change anything.' - 'Aren't you even gonna fight, Car?'... something, whatever, and all the time Ir is fighting that horrible feeling of guilt, knowing the was involved. It would put a lot more tension in that scene, which would give the chapter more of a kick. Good point.

Comments. I will also send an LBLs file, but it won't have a bunch of minute stuff in it, just some tracked comments they are minor enough they're not worth putting on the thread here. (page 1) - It seems a bit repetitive that she is again lost at the beginning of the chapter. Once is fair enough, twice is just careless. - "so hungry she was getting dizzy" - Meh. I don't believe this. I'm presuming she had a proper breakfast, and it's still late lunchtime? - But "hung over from healing someone" - I keep forgetting about this, so, special circumstances, I guess but is that not all the more reason for her to know to pay closer attention to where the food is? (page 2) - "why her presence made him suspicious" - Maybe WRS for me, but wasn't she scared last time that he would recognise her? In that case, she knows why he's suspicious, surely. - "She had a cut on her cheek" - The reading of thoughts is a nice counterpoint in the discussion, and it's worked well in the chatting up with the girl in class too. - "I’d like that" - she agrees very quickly. I thought she was trying to get away from him. If she's more comfortable because she's 'read' that he has dismissed her as the woman last night, then I think we need her to knowledge that slightly more strongly, maybe? Okay, she kind of does that. (page 3) - "he seemed to have decided they hadn’t met last night" - Okay, I'm back on this. So, she quickly accepted his invitation even thought she was still uncertain whether he might recognise her? This seems to totally contradict her previous position in the scene. - "making sure Demons didn’t eat any tourists" - LOL, awesome. - "trying to glean any information she could about his background" - But she just asked him this question? Seems a little pointless, unless she feels he's not forthcoming. (page 4) - All the spy talk seemed melodramatic to me. Are there a lot of spies around these parts? - "a t-shirt, no matter how hot it was" - I having fleshy exposed to the bright sun a good option for cooling down? I wouldn't have thought so. Loose clothing, I thought, is supposed to be better for keeping cool (not necessarily good, just better). (page 5) - "like you pulled it out of a manual" - nice line. - "sunk his front teeth into his lower lip" - This happened once in the chapter already, and I wasn't mad keen on it then. It sound like they are puncturing their (respective) lips, and there should be blood everywhere. - "regretting the words as soon as they were out of her mouth" - she just made a slip in the second last thing she said, seconds before. I can't believe she goes almost straight into a second mistake just having mispoke. - "tripped over a corgi" - the thing is, it's kind of too randomly ridiculous--I feel--since there is not indication that there is anyone near them. - "burst out into a fit of laughter" - When did C come back? This episode isn't working for me, because it's farcical, but also not blocked out. - Nice detail on the feel of the wound. (page 6) - "the wound became more like" - nice metaphor. - The narrative around here is kind of awkward, I think. Their conversation about the paranormal too. It's not nearly as slick or tense as it needs to be. It feels stumbling, but not in the right way, I think. And it's not just the typos, IMO. (page 7) - "things he wanted to know..." - good line, like it. - "that didn’t have flame" - Huh? (page 9) - "but the small of it made her feel like she couldn’t breathe" - Same! I can't go anywhere near a spray zone for ages. (page 10) - I'm largely skimming this stuff about preparing for the mixer. It doesn't tell me anything I don't know, really, nothing significant anyway. It's fine, pretty vanilla party preparation schtick. Nothing to make it pop, IMO. - "perfect type of night to go to the beach and swim in the moonlight" - mildly diverting thought that could so easily end in a disastrous, demonic encounter? - I guess there's no point in me asking 'What do you think is wrong with the paragraph. I couldn't see anything wrong with it. It tells me a lot about M, not in a specific way, but it gives me practical information in terms of how she considers herself, but also maybe her attitude to how people might perceive here. And it tells me about A, which is also likely to be useful. It's not over-complicated. It's simple, and it's direct. I like that about a scene!! If you keep putting it back, and can't put your finger on what you don't like about it, that suggests to me that your subconscious maybe is saying that it's actually fine. - "I know I’m a queer but I have no clue what kind of queer" - This is a very helpful line (as is the next one from T), for someone like me, who--thanks to the patience and experience of all my friends on here--has learned so much over the last seven years. The more I learn, and seek out, and attempt to write in areas of varying gender and sexuality, the more awareness I have, it seems that the number of groups, and orientations and--in a non-pejorative sense--labels there seem to be. It gets pretty bewildering sometimes. The most recent 'expansion' of my horizons was in listening to the WE episode two or three weeks back on ACE, and the various variations of ACE that there are. I DO NOT MEAN, that it's nice to hear someone not put a label on themselves, but it's useful, I think, to read a character not being assertive / prescriptive about a particular label or space on the spectrum, but reflecting the existence of fluidity or uncertainty, or just the actual choice to not to step into a particular bracket, in a particular moment. I hope that makes some kind of sense. I hope it doesn't come off as a rant, it's no meant to. (page 11) - "her knee was just touching M's" - THE SCANDAL! Nice moment. - "at least eight slices" - What proportion of the pizza is that? What size? This is important information in scene setting. Our local DMNOS does 10 slices for a 12". I need a reference point here. - I really did wonder who Charles was for a moment. (page 12) - "You were barely indoors long enough" - That seems to support M's point. Is A supposed to be arguing? - 'tried not to laugh', surely? - Aw, really nice, warm emotions at the end of the chapter here. I like that. We can hang off cliffs another time. OVERALL I really quite enjoyed this chapter. All my issues are up above. It was the discussion with Mi that caused most of my problems, I think, due to flow and awkwardness (not the good kind) and a loss of clarity in the through line (for me). It felt overlong, and I think there was a degree of repetition in the emotions and the dialogue. The endings scenes were really quite sweet and I enjoyed that around this point. Nice set up of a group friendship. Now we can get down to things going wrong!!

I'd be happy to get the ball rolling here “She was too late” – Of course they knew already, and this is my single biggest issue with this chapter. Ir has worked at the restaurant for many years(?), she would know that someone opened up early to start the ovens, or whatever. She would know that the shopkeeper next door would know Car well and would get news to her. “need to throw out every bottle of booze” – I don’t buy that they would have any booze in the house. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. “specie” – I see this is used throughout, and it’s been bugging me from the beginning. I see no reference online to specie being used in the singular (as it were) to apply to the ‘family’ of an animal, all the references I can find are to ‘species’. ‘Specie’ does have a meaning though, but it is in relation to a financial transaction, or ‘provision’ (I haven’t researched extensively). I stand to be corrected, of course OVERALL A good chapter, with lots of emotion, which I thought was sensitively handled. I enjoy being in Ir's company, she's determined and loyal, and cares for her family. She's driven to succeed, but what will happen when she comes under real stress, or choices become harder? We've had a sample of the former, but I'm keen to read more to see if the story goes in the direction I hope it's going. This chapter is a logical progression from the previous chapter obvs. Not much in the way of action, of course, but I do not mind that. Bit wordy in places, and I think a good, tough edit could take 10% out of the length and make it flow better. My expectations now are that she will receive some sort of ‘sign’ in the next chapter that will guide her into the murky regions of intrigue into which I’m sure the story is headed. We do, I think I need a pacier chapter in the next one. It feels like in these first three you have got Ir where you need her to be, and now we will see things start to gather pace.

The Elg seem to be able to choose what they dissolve, so I was thinking this one was trying to pull her in closer. I guess they do, although I hadn't really thought of it till now. Seems a little convenient in this moment. I do like to see them teaming up. I was trying to get at the fact that we know those events, so I think it would read better if we concentrate on, and there was more, emotion reaction to the news of the death of the Councillors, and of the Eff. Is there a circumstance here where Man could be named defacto Eff? Maybe not, but certainly head of the Council, and to name a new Council in absentia? I love all the political stuff. Always a pleasure. Not a cringe amongst them

Agree. That was a fabulous performance. But as you say, all the casting was superb.

Lol, I'm never right when it comes to Harry Potter. I was thinking of the films. Ralph Fiennes is my Voldemort.

Nah. Pretty sure Voldemort's eyes are not red. I mean...a little around the edges, like he has conjunctivitis, or stayed up too late the night before. Stormbringer. Spoiler! Love that sketch.

Hey, ho. I'm going to send you LBLs. I have a lot of little things, but only a handful of large points, which I'll paste in here. (page 20) So, I've been chuntering through the chapter quite happily at a reasonable pace, and the only 'major' point I have is that the two conversations are quite similar, both concentrated on how to catch an El. `the first one with Man has a decent amount of setting and preparation for the encounter, and springing the trap, but I think it's a bit slow, and could be judiciously edit to remove a page (probable) from language tweaks alone, which would make it more urgent too. The second scene, there is good dialogue, but there is no setting, so I don't know quite there they are and what they're doing. Are they walking somewhere? I think they are, but it's quickly lost in the conversation. (page 21) - "the street they were on" - Yeah, it's not like there were any markers really of where Man et al were, but I wonder if there might be one clue. A tree building (whatever), the one the others climbed up, and not R's crew are approaching it. - "Fading Hands" - Ah, it's been too long since we got a mention. Nice. (page 22) - "nearly as tense as the string on her repeating crossbow" - Hmm, would she keep it under tension when there's no knowing how long it might before she needs to use it? I thought good practice for bows was to keep the string loose, but I'm no expert. (page 23) - "Go! Go!” she shouted to the ones in front of her" - I feel they would not all be standing around wondering what to do. These are intelligent maj. (page 24) - "ran through the opposite side of the portal" - Ooh, did not remember you could do that (if I even knew before). (page 25) - "front end of an El grasping her boot" - why doesn't her foot disappear immediately on contact? (page 29) - "The diplomat looked shaken" - I don't really follow this paragraph. One group heard the words and one didn't? But no, because R did, but MF's group did too. - I had no notion that the Eta was not a maj. Basically, I think I just assume everyone in the story is s maj, because it seems to me that a substantial majority of the characters are. - "translated the communication of the L" - why a Lo? I still have trouble keeping straight the characteristics of each species. I do not remember them. (page 32) - "In front of her was a plain" - This feels repetitive. The plain was raised before, but then glossed over as we went on to something else. (page 35) - "We were there for that" - the last half dozen pages in the chapter are really slow, for me. We know all this stuff. It's all very well seeing their shocked reactions, but it rings hollow, I think, because of that pre-knowledge. Also, their reactions are not emotional enough, IMO. "The entire Council was dissolved," Ori asked. (page 36) - "remembered from council meetings" - repetitive. This must be the third or fourth time that R has remembered something from a Council meeting. - "Not with those knees" - LOL. She makes an excellent point, though. It was why Startrek Original Series was such bunkum in may respects. No way the captain of the shop goes an all those landing parties. (Wonderful, enjoyable, life-changing bunkum, though ). - "for some reason" - Harsh. It's clear for anyone to see that he was acting from the best of intentions, and did not know, in fact was not at the time, the only surviving Cuncillor. (page 37) - "It seems we have similar aims with respect to these creatures" - . Why on earth wouldn't they? This does not bear voicing out loud, IMO. Man is smarter than this. - "They fill the streets" - They don't really though. The 'goodies' wouldn't be able to walk around in the Imp like they did, and take up positions, like at the top of the building. The El would be everywhere, unavoidable, if they 'filled' the streets. (page 38) - That does not sound like an ending line for a chapter. There's no drama in it, IMO. Overall It's a long old chapter, in which not a great deal actually happens. A group go up a building then come back down. Another group meet them, make a portal and they all escape. They kill and El, then, they talk a bunch, saying a lot of things the reader knows already. I can see why you would want to have the emotional payoffs, but the payoffs are lost, I think, because we've already seen the drama ourselves, in person. I know there's a good chapter in here, and many of these passages are satisfying, but I really don't think it needs to be 7,000 words. I feel that it could be 5,000/5,500 without too much heartache. There's quite a bit go repetition and wordiness that I feel can be cut. The ending has the scope to be a nice reveal. Brandon would give us the reveal, and have us anticipate the fallout from that, but this ending sounds very much like the middle of a paragraph, IMO.

Cool. Thanks Yeah, I'm contemplating some fairly significant changes now, so I'll let them mature for a few weeks and see how I feel when I come back to it.

Yay. And, oh, I seem to be going backwards... I'm sure there is a line somewhere where they do ask the question about N. Yes - that's fair. Cool. Yeah, I cut it already. Check. Edited. Mission accomplished! Yup. The one ahead. Clarified. Check. There's a reference somewhere way back to breeding more, or rather, readying more for release. It's not that they have an unlimited supply, but they have spare and can run the process to produce more. Hmm. Good point. I figured they would pick it up from the others, but I'll think about that. Lol. Yes, thanks. Hmm. I'll consider that. Check. Why indeed? Yeah, maybe, it's one of the few delaying tactics they have, so worth a try. I've tweaked the wording. I think it's clearer. Great comments, as always, Silk. Thank you so much!

I know! I had to 'make' my own!

Hmmmmmmm, having read Journey... I'm not entirely convinced about this.

Hey, Silk, thanks so much for reading, and I am sorry it has taken me so horribly long to get back to your kind response. This is good! I like your suggestions and have a neat idea for another N intervention that isn't there at present. I think it will up the tension at the end of the previous chapter into this one. Check on hearing Q's feeling going into the following chapter. That's an area that is under-severed, I think, maybe even more so in the earlier chapters, but needs attention throughout. Maybe he should. In a way, he was just buying some time. If there wasn't they could have gone back up to 5. I'll think on it. Check. Thanks. Check. Done earlier, but thanks. This is a blocking thing. The raptors can fit up the chute and along the long side of the passageway, which runs parallel with the corridor between the habitats, but the passageway is at the back, of course. However, at the end, the passageway turns onto the short site of the building, and that is where the access hatch is, which the raptors to not fit into. Humans only. Continuity error. Should read four. Although, every indication now is that, in the next edit, Q and Mor will be cooperating at this point. Good point. Probably moot in light of my response above this one. Yes, but...look over here, a puppy!! They are out of sight back at the door into the viewing corridor, waiting for Q to tell them which habitat TT and MR are in. Edited previously. I gather someone else mentioned this, I find it changed when I got back to look to TOM's hand at work. Good point. At that moment, he does not know where to look for N, and so it really just backing away from the androids. When I rewrite this scene with Q and M cooperating, and most like to no D, but with WK in D's place, it will look somewhat different, but this is still a good point. I've noted it for further consideration. Ooooh. Why did I not think of that? Right, I'll note it. Good points all. I've got many notes about retooling all of N's scenes throughout the story. And the end of DM's arc will look very different here if he's cooperating with Q, and maybe filling in for D (who I'm thinking of cutting) unless WK is filling in for D at this point. Noted and noted. Noted and good Yeah, okay. Both true. Yeah, so what I did here was have M's mother be English. As luck would have it, I was editing the first four chapter of TMM for submission to an agent, so I was able to slip that into the current draft of Book 1 without much difficulty. It's the whole basis for her nickname, and I've been waiting to spill it for two books, so I'm keeping it!!! Great comments, as ever. Thanks for much, Silk, and so sorry about how long it's taken me to respond. I'm only my new WIP now, and coming back to TCC is actually quite hard.

I know, right? I felt that chill too.

I would not speak for Snakenaps, but I wasn't actually suggesting writing a novel, just that the arc, the structure of the story doesn't really develop any scene as deeply as I would like, and that each scene as set up deserves more time and consideration...not even that, maybe just needs to feel that it has. I'm trying to think how to explain myself better than this! Take the example of him observing the assassin as she plays with / talks to the children (if I remember the details correctly). I never really felt that he had spent any time pursuing her, I think at the time of reading I felt that we jumped right into that scene without feeling like any time had passed. I didn't mean to imply that it sounded like a novel plot (although it could be), so much as it read more like a summary, an outline of something larger, due to the way the scene were structured, the transitions, etc.

Oops, my bad. Right, I didn't really get that. I will defer to your superiors knowledge and experience <cough> Not they weren't there...I was being super disciplined. Roger, wilco.

Right. I'm going to not mention any grammar. No LBLs coming your way! I like this idea. I think you're right in that alleys are big old cliché for fight scenes. Construction is a decent substitute although, if you're a fan of 70s/80s cop shows like me, there was a time when construction site was the cliché (along with alleys too: alleys have always been there). I'm in the middle of an excellent Rockford Files two-parter ATM. No building sites in last night's instalment, there was a racetrack though. Sorry, digress. Deal. (page 1) - Decent first line. Slightly noir-y feel. I like it. - I like the crunch punctuation. And I read right past a massive typo and only flinched once - It's line level, but jogging and sprinting are not the same thing. Also, a doubt very much she has to leap over heaves and potholes. I'd think that it was more of case of having to time or alter stride pattern, unless the potholes are like two feet wide, which seems very unlikely. Urban authorities close off footways with those sizes of hole to avoid getting sued when folks fall in them. - "in case a Demon tried to eat her" - I don't mind a bald and simplistic statement, which can have a kind of comic timing to narrative, but this one struck me as not achieving that. I know, style comment, but... - The third paragraph with all the exposition and story catch-up material reads like a paragraph with a lot of exposition and story catch-up material. I think that needs to be way smoother, and spread out. (I don't like saying spread out, because I've had that crit--spread it out through the story. I mean... I don't want to spread it out, I want it here!) Anyway, I think it reads clunky at present. - Heart thundering in chest: I score one in cliché bingo But, I do like her realising she doesn't know where she is, being drawn into trouble. Nice. She's disoriented: I am too, but in a good way where I know that excrement is about to descend. - Wait, what? If she's wearing shorts, but she has to reach through the picket to get the knife, won't the knife be protruding below the shorts? This seems over complicated. I know nothing about this world, so Im guessing the deal is that having a knife strapped to your thigh is frowned upon. (page 2) - Nooooo!!! Call for backup!! Why do they never call for backup?!! - I love cheese, so this dialogue is just fine with me. Sometimes, a direct, smack-in-the-face line just works. I'm happy with this as a general tone for the whole story. This is NOT intended as a negative feedback node, but someones you don't want Joss Whedon mega-dialogue fireworks. Let's just get on with the story - "stared at each other like wolves about to fight over prey" - Yes: love it. - The thing that strikes me is indeed that I want a little more description. I've got a nice clear picture of the mechanics, but I want more description of the demon. What do they look like in this world. It was described as white/pale. Is it a skeleton, a ghost, a zombie? What is its physical appearance? - "had comic book panels instead" - fabulous. Keep going, keep going! (page 3) - "or people like M and her family rescued them" - I wanted more attitude here, like 'M and her family picked up the pieces' or 'saved them from the frying pan'. Something colourful. - "but the bones called to her" - I feel like I'm supposed to know what this means (if I've read PS), but I don't. - "as the bones fused" - why was she telling herself she should not have done this? I don't follow. (page 4) - "Next time she couldn’t sleep" - Confused. I thought it was lunchtime? - "and that it was an elective" - Don't believe you then need to go on and explain what an elective is. - "Her eyes struggled to adjust" - But has she not being seeing the world as a human all her life? - "dress made out of..." - Awesome! (page 5) - "Chocolate makes you feel better" - true dat. - "They flew away" - ROFL. - "life was too damned short" - What age is she, real or otherwise? In my experience, young people don't think in these terms at all. - I like her reading the minds. That's a neat demonstration, and a good example of show don't tell. Conversely, the stuff about her sight on the previous page, I felt was pretty clunky and telling, and therefore hard to absorb. - "images of code faded to the people walking by and the songbirds perched on a branch" - I don't know what this means. What's happening here? (page 6) - "It was the guy she’d saved last night" - I don't buy that she does recognise him straight away on seeing him. She spent long enough with him, and healed him too. I'm not convinced by this. - "as he returned to the building" - Why did he come outside? Confused? - "tangled around the pins on the girl’s messenger bag" - LOL, funny awkward moment... meet-cute? - "She/her pronouns" - No problem at all with this conversation but, would people be more casual about this? The dialogue is very formal and correct here. I'm thinking something like 'Hey, I'm M. She/her.' 'Oh, hey. T----. She/her too.' - Hmm. The mind reading... So, does she go around reading everyone's mind? It must lead to more potentially awkward situations like this. It must be a hindrance in many social situations. Can she not turn it off so she can just meet someone in a normal way, such as here? (page 7) - We've heard about the thick curls already. Repetition. (Oh, I know. LBL ). - "It was the guy" - Yeah, really no surprise at all. I thought he'd be here when she got into the room. - "he had the same name as her father" - I find the narrative around the TA thing a bit confusing. It didn't follow it that well first read. Also, if the guy has the same name as her father, doesn't she know him? I have no idea what her relationship with her father is, so I don't understand this point (yet). - "he probably wasn’t as stupid as M thought" - When did she think he was stupid? I didn't get that. (page 8) - "A collective mental “no”" - This seems unlikely to me, if only statistically speaking. Theres always at least one who wants to get out in front go the rest, or get it over with, or just hear the sound of their own voice. - "who were blissfully ignorant of the paranormal" - Hmm. Okay, I get where she is coming from, but that's not really innocence, and, even in her world, another more traditional sense of the word must exist. (page 9) - First couple of paragraphs on this page were a little bit quick fire. Could be smoother, for what it's worth (and no doubt will be after your next edit). - "Had I said that outloud" - Oooh. I laughed when she said 'I'm not' out loud, but then the punchline only comes after she has said 'Straight' out loud, so the beat is missed. I strongly recommend you cut 'Straight' or rather move it, because it's spoiling the joke here. "I'm not." "Not what?" Sh1t, did I say that out loud?' I really think M needs to react straight after T comes back to her. - "T thought" - Oh, wait, sorry. I read that wrong! But, I think it's the wrong way around. M is the one who spoke out loud and revealed she could read minds. M is the one who is tired, and likely to slip up. I think its way funnier if M is the one on the back foot, realising she his misspoken. - "If she was struggling to parse out what T said out loud or thought" - No, there's a disconnect here. M does not respond as if she is struggling. This section is confused, IMO, and I think there is a much funnier version of it where T is in the right (which she is, because she didn't say it out loud), and M is the one who makes the mistake and is on the defensive. - "Um, well, the GSA" - I don't know what GSA is, and I don't know who's line this is. I can work out it's T's, but I didn't really want to work it out by waiting till I had read the following line. - "I’m already planning to" - Kind of cold response. I'd prefer if it was tagged the M didn't mean to be cold, but she was distracted. - I like the mental folders thing. Yes, there is something weird about him. I like it. I like the balance of stuff coming from Mi in terms of being enough to get my interest, but not work out straight away what his deal is. Oooh. Is he a big, big demon? That would be cool. I think there are enough hints here that his more than even he thinks he is. - "She pulled her mind back to herself" - Clunky. - "a mental wall of rocks" - could it not just be a mental wall? A wall of rocks is weird, and will have lots of little goes between the rocks, so not secure. - Yeah, last line is clunky, for me. It has similar thoughts in it to the previous paragraph, so it doesn't zing, IMO. I think the closing lines could be much sharper. Overall I enjoyed this a good deal. I managed to read through and not even get drawn into typos, etc., which was great. I think it read nice and quickly, I learned a bunch and--although there were a couple of clunky exposition sections--most of it came over pretty smooth. The fight was good, and I like where it came in the scene. For me, that's spot on. I do want some more description around it. Not necessarily the construction site (you could through in a couple more construction terms - happy to help with that), but with the demon itself. I suspect there are descriptions of demons in Book 1 that set out what these things look like, but I haven't read it (yet), so I need something more in that scene. I mean, white walker? Am I close yet? I like M's voice, and I'm looking forward to spending so more time with her. Good start

Oh, man, I meant to write this in my crit, and I'm pretty sure I forgot #iagreewithsnakenaps

Ooh, ooh, I know this one!! You've already got my comments on the dynamic between Chapter 1 and 2. Still a fan of Chapter 1 setting the scene then everything kicking off in Chapter 2 once I know that Ir has a comfortable life, love in her family and a job she adores, and also once I have a feeling for the setting and recent history.

Hey, Cherish, thanks for your response. I'm really interested in what you say, and I'm reassured by your reaction to take on the issues. That's good Yeah, I forgot to mention your comment in the covering message about expanding the story to get over 5,000 words. Also, I see you mention the original version was... SF?! The thing is, I feel a story has its own geometry, its own topography, kind of sets its own parameters. The number of characters you have, the number off settings, the number of scenes, these are the things that determine the length of the story. I really don't think you can just squeeze or expand a story to fit a particular market. A writer has to accept that the story will--for the most part--be the story that it wants to be, and just adding or taking out words to hit a certain submission target, or changing genres to suit a market, is a kind of dangerous idea, and would tend to be bound to failure. Write the story for the story, and for yourself, not to hit a word count. Don't constrain yourself to a market. I think a lot of experience of writing and publishing is required to decide. I'm going to write a 3,000 word short story (say), and a decent amount of awareness of how story works is required to plan that: I can only have one main character and maybe two or three side characters, probably only and handful of scenes at most, and one main theme, and one arc to illustrate it. I don't know, I only use that as an example. I've been there certainly, but my thought process would be, do I have a story that fits the guidelines? Or that is close enough that I could prune it to the guidelines? I don't think expanding ever goes well, because one would be 'throwing in' things that one didn't want or think to put in the story the first time, so straight away they are going to tend to feel unnatural, I think. I would always tend to write a new story for a market or call for submissions, if I had time. If it's unsuccessful, you've still got a story in the bank that could be edited for the next time that type of submission comes up. I hear what you say, but I would urge to you look at the MS formatting guideline in Shunn (the link I pasted). Markets and publishers receive hundreds, maybe thousands of submission when they go to 'open door', for novels anyway. They are looking for any reason to trim the slush pile, so if they open up a doc and it does not fit their guidelines, but also accepted industry standard formatting, they will absolutely bin it without reading it. External references, like chivalry and the names of historical figures--sorry, I'm going to sound preachy here (so what's new! ). When a writer references something that is real, be it chivalry, or the name Borgia, or even uses a particular word, we absolutely have to understand what it means, its significance and the impact it will have on the story, and the reader, because one has to assume that there will be reader who know more about that than we do. The chainmail armour, for example, which is referenced. We have to assume that people will read our stories who know a lot more about period armour and fighting than we do, so we have to do our homework, and do enough research to convince a reader that we know enough to use the word, term, or make the reference. Take the names for example. I think using the names of historical figures just creates a world of pain, because it creates the impression that this is some kind of parallel universe where all these historical figures exist together with elves and trolls, etc. In fact, the names were only there because they were associated with a bunch of bad people, but if you are drawing on the reader knowing that those people were bad in our culture, you are absolutely implying a real world reference point that can't exist within the story. Bottom line, there needs to be a good, compelling story reason for everything that is there, the settings, the character, the references, the names, etc., all have to serve the story. Ironically, there is no room for filler in storytelling. IMO, it always looks like filler.

So, like a big cheating cheater, I'm going to skip to the latest version... if that's okay. Sorry I never quite got to this one

[EDIT: post script at the front. So, I got a bit frustrated while reading. I really wanted to like this, but there were various issues that pushed various buttons. When I get frustrated while critiquing it's usually because I can see the potential in a story, but I'm being prevented from getting that potential as a reader because of... issues. I mean to be helpful and to point at things that I think will hamper the story in finding a market or an audience. I really don't mean to cause offence!! ] Hi, Cherish, It's always a pleasure to critique a new member of the group, and excited to read a short story, as we have not had one of those in quite some time I've taken the liberty of pasting the text into a Word doc, which I will email back to you tracked comments. I hope that will be helpful. It throws the line returns out of whack, but hopefully the comments will still be clear enough. Oh, and I'll try and keep the page numbers the same as the PDF. I tend towards line level stuff (line-by-lines, or LBLs), because, well, these are often the things that I notice, but you will get a good rounded critique on the forum as there are others that are better than me at themes and arc issues, etc. So, off we go! (PDF page 1) - Format of the submission: this is really, really important if you are submitting for publication. This is a good source, but publishers and markets will tend to automatically 'bin' submissions that do not use standard formatting. I find this a good source as a starting point: https://www.shunn.net/format/story/ - "galloped into the cheers" - Bit disorienting as a first line. Misdirection is okay if it makes some sense, but I was trying to figure out what this meant, and had a read on to get it. (Slight) Confusion at the first line is not necessarily a good emotion to be going into a story with. - "He rode his stallion into the crowd" - He's going to kill a lot of people that way. We're told he's galloping: a horse hitting people at that speed is highly likely to injure someone severely. Big things horses. - "And he is good at it" - Tense fluctuation. Watch out for slipping into the wrong tense. - Ah, the tense is kind of jumping around quite a bit. - I presume the centring of some lines of text is a quirk of the PDF? That's not a thing in the doc, right? - "When they noticed M they cheered" - It all seems very cosy and quite stereotyped, BUT I do sense the undercurrent of irony and sarcasm. I do sense that he is heading for a fall, and that you are going to circumvent all this white knight set up. - "chugged the entire gauntlet" - er, goblet, I presume. - "grabbed a serving maid" - At this point, I'm going with the lighthearted tone, and that undercurrent of 'too good to be true' in relation to stereotyping of gender politics vs. serving maids. (PDF page 2) - "as he counted coins" - Why would he conduct banking business in the Council hall? Quite odd this, but the style of the narrative is that of a fable, so I'm going with another detail that, practically speaking, seems really unlikely to happen (IMO). - "filthy g--s" - Eh, even in a light fable style like this, I'm not sure about this line. Okay, it is in character voice, but be careful not to align the narrative with his homophobic viewpoint. HOWEVER, practical point. If M was employed by the villagers, this implies to me they are holders of property in the village. So, are they not in fact gypsies at all, and this is a pejorative term used by the speaker? I took it literally. - "not until the next harvest" - Yes, okay, these are not in fact gypsies, but the residents of the village, who do not move around, but have farms, shops, etc. - "It’s a weakness we can’t afford" - Hmm, so they are hiring out their champion, this Council. - "spoke after she played with her son, the LC’s hair" - Eh? Confused. This makes the LC sound like he is ten, or something. Also, slightly odd grammar/construction. Why does she only speak after playing with his hair? Pretty sure she could managed both at the same time. - "What would the villagers think of our chivalrous and honorable knight" - Well, clearly he is not chivalrous or honourable, because he is taking payment for a task that, if he was chivalrous, he would have done for the honour of it, not for payment. I'd suggest you need to be a bit careful about using terms like these. Chivalry has a very specific meaning and code in fantasy, originating (or certainly well defined) in the tales of King Arthur, specifically Le Morte d'Arthur by Sit Thomas Mallory. The wiki page on chivalry looks pretty comprehensive. Here is an extract of the definition of the chivalric code: Gautier's Ten Commandments of chivalry, set out in 1891, are: Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches and thou shalt observe all its directions. Thou shalt defend the Church. Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them. Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born. Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy. Thou shalt make war against the infidel without cessation and without mercy. Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God. Thou shalt never lie, and shalt remain faithful to thy pledged word. Thou shalt be generous, and give largesse to everyone. Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil. This issue with M's behaviour and the queen's reference to it as chivalrous starts to give me concern that perhaps the twist / subversion of the stereotype might not be forthcoming. - Character names: I'm not going to go an G--gle them, but I was thinking they were beginning to sound familiar as real historical figures. Maybe I will go search for them. It was the pope's name that triggered this comment, because I think there was a Borg who was pope, wasn't there? <goes to search> Ah, okay, at least two Borg popes; El of Acquitaine, I thought that might be her. I'm a bit thrown off by this now, looking for a pattern in the names. (PDF page 3) - "I must head out soon" - I'm a big fan of using language that fits closer to the period of the a story, even if that story is a fantasy. Here, 'head out' is a modern expression, I think. If it was me (which it is not), I'd say 'I must depart soon', which is more like the sort of language a knight would use. Fitting the language to the apparent period helps to keep the reader's head in the story, and not think about 'heading out' for a burger (for example). - "ring of the f" - Now, every time a detail like this comes up, I have to go to the internet a check it, and how it fits into my reality. I had not heard of this, but now I know it's a real thing. So, I'm learning something, apart from anything else, but it's messing with my reading of the story. - "do the paperwork for you" - Ha. I'm stuck in this limbo of not knowing whether this is a total Westworld scenario, and these are modern people roleplaying or inhabiting some sort of charade, or whether it's a kind of deception in the narrative. - "Assist him in all his needs" - Meh. Okay, it's the character of DP being a tasteless bounder. I see that Min refuses the suggestion. - "Waiting for a loving wife?” QE inaccurately concluded" - I see he gets it from his tactless mother: fair enough, but 'inaccurately concluded' is a problem for me. This is the author just flat out telling the reader something. It's not done through character internal voice, because there is almost no internal monologue from M at all. - "taking the two women" - Gah. For me, this is the narrative supporting the stance of the obnoxious gentry in treating the woman as objects. I don't get the sense it means taking them in a carnal sense, but it does sound like taking them in the sense of them being objects / possessions. - "How Romantic" - I'm just sceptical all over now. Chivalric romance is a whole other world of behaviour, code and rules. I'm just not connived that is the setting we are in, from M's earlier behaviour. I can't imagine a chivalric night would cheer himself, for example. - "as he sat between the queen and the pope" - I think you need a scene break here, and forgive me if you already have one formatted in your original Word doc. There is a break, isn't there, where he goes away and gets changed? - "his battle clothes" - I've never heard this term. Isn't it just his armour? - "up straighter and improve his posture" - Odd. Seems to me this is a modern concept. I'm back to expecting Jeffery Wright or Anthony Hopkins to appear (PDF page 4) - the Pope's ring being mentioned a second time is too much, IMO. Theres no explanation of the significance of this so it come over as a unnecessary detail to me. - "We truly thank you for your service" - This feels repetitive to me. He's been thanked already. I'm four pages into the story and I don't know what the stakes are, I don't know what the character motivations are, and I'm confused about the setting. To be honest, if I was reading this story in an anthology, I would have stopped by now for these reasons. There's no inciting incident, no sense of a plot or a story arc. I'm sorry to come down on this so hard, but it's missing a lot of the major components of story structure. - Wait what? Who is Hu? Where did he come from? This is the first mention of him, and there's no explanation of who he is. Why does he have a shield with him at the dining table? That seems strange. - Whose comrades? - Why is Min sitting on the floor below Hu? It was said before that Min was sitting between the Queen and the Pope. I have not idea what is going on. - Field? Water? - It's really not a gauntlet, is it? It can't be. It's a goblet, right? - John? Walter? - Okay. I sense that there is some kind of illusion being perpetrated on Min, and he is in fact on a battlefield, and he is being deceived by the Council, but it's just not clear. There is not clue, no hint, no clarity that the allows the reader to form a suspicion that as to what happens at the scene change. - "I am not a knight" - So, he's dreaming? Ah, he's dreaming. But, the problem is, in this whole scene with the soldiers, there is nothing to say that the setting has changed. Are they in fact sitting out in a field somewhere, or in a tent? The character, Min, will be able to see these things with his own eyes, see the change in the setting, but that is withheld from the reader, and it kind of a dirty trick, I've got to say. I like the idea of the story, but withholding big glaring details from the reader like what the character can see, is not going to find favour, I don't think. Because we get to see what he sees in the dream, but not in reality. I kind of struggle with that. - "before yer 25 fer sure" - No numerals, not in fantasy. Maybe in SF if it's a serial number, but this should be 'twenty-five'. When I trot this line out, I'm always inclined to second guess myself, but if you take down any fantasy book from your shelf, I can pretty much guarantee, if its any kind of established author or experienced press, you will not see numerals in text. (PDF page 5) - "My father is dead, I have an ailing mother and sister to care for. Regardless if we are right or wrong for invading the Elves forests means nothing to me" - Ah, so, here are the stakes, and the character motivation, but I'm almost half way through the story. I need these much earlier in the story. I get that there is an illusion, a trick played on the reader in the beginning, but I still need to know why I'm following this character much earlier on, so that I can invest in his story, or not, as the case may be. Also, the plot itself... comments at the end. - "Begged an E woman" - this was a massive jump in setting again. There's no transition from the last viewpoint, and there's not sense of setting, of the world. Are they in a forest? - "The war on the elves turned into the war" - this is a nice line, and I like the notion of one war becoming another and another, BUT... "Especially if the villagers paid" - In economic terms, there is no way that villagers can p[ay directly to support an army, that's just not how armies for in 'pseudo historical times', so I'm left unconvinced and confused by this detail. Subjects in a kingdom would pay taxes. tithes, whatever to the king, and it would be the king's responsibility to defend them (since they grow his food, mend his shoes, etc., this is in his best interests, not to mention losing territory to his enemies). This premise, it doesn't make sense to me. - "Never put in a word to defend themselves" - Why would they? Surely, there is no precedent for a monster to defend itself in court. Honestly, that would be an interesting and quite different premise for a story. (PDF Page 6) - "but as their soft and smooth disappeared with age" - soft and smooth what? - "mental illness" - This is a modern concept, I really struggle with it here. I feel it mixes the messages and themes of the story. You have a supposedly chivalrous knight, and he's having thoughts about mental illness. - "kappa" - What is this in terms of a monster? - "brought M back to the table" - What? Huh? Oh, was the battlefield scene the dream? - "the obscene dancing" - I get that things are supposed to be turned around, and the monsters are the good guys, etc., but this is laying it on very thick that the Council are a bunch of amoral louts. It's heavy-handed, IMO. - "can take a sabbath" - But the sabbath is a particular day, surely? This makes it sound like a day of annual leave. (PDF page 7) - "we have a special mission for you" - This comes very late again for me. This is the plot really, everything before has been set-up, it seems to me. This is more like the structure of a novel chapter, setting put the story proper as the disillusioned hero goes on a hopeless mission, but this is coming alway through the short story. (PDF page 8) - "raised his hand with the Ring of the Fisherman" - I'd recommend abbreviating this phrase after it's used first. It sounds odd now with each repetition. All you really need to say after the first time, I think, is 'his ringed finger'. The reader will remember its full title. This takes me back to me point about real historical figures. Clearly this is a fantasy world, although there is very little detail on the world itself. Why are there names of real historical figures? It doesn't seem to have any actual significance. - "We fear that we will be attacked next, or worse, our families" - But I thought they had already been attacked. Did someone not say that? Also, this is a hard change of mood and tone from the queen. It catches me quite unawares, but there is no outward sign of her struggling with it, emotionally. (PDF page 9) - "His body just hung there" - I don't believe an arrow from a bow can carry a person off their horse and pin them to a tree. Not physically possible. While something might make a nice image, it had to be plausible if there are no magical forces involved. I might believe that a harpoon could do this (if he was close to the tree), but not a wee wooden arrow. Nope. - "tied to it" - Again, how big is this arrow? Did the note pass through his head? - "They offered a good dowry" - A dowry is offered by the bride's family to the groom's for him to take her, to make her an attractive match. I don't know what the other way around is. I've never heard of that, but it sound like her being bought as a chattel. See earlier comment. Ah, that's interesting. Just looked this up. Apparently, the opposite is something called 'bride price' or 'dower'. I did not know that. That's my learning for today - General comment: I feel there is quite a bit of inconsistency in capitalisation of various terms (church, queen, king, etc.). (PDF page 11) - "Monster Killer" - Is this the signatory of the letter, or is this a reference to M? (PDF page 12) - "confirmed list of kills and their identity" - This sounds more like Jason Bourne than a fantasy story. I suggested before using language that suits the tone of the story. Here, for example, this can easily all be replaced by the word 'victims' and be clearer and flow better, IMO. - "Yes, triple your battle numbers and quadruple the deaths confirmed" - I don't believe this. The numbers dying in battle are thousands, and we're to believe that this thing has undertaken assassinations in ones and twos, over a period of four years, that have amounted to many more thousands? Just not plausible. - "Women are known for being corrupted" - I know it's the character saying this, so I bite my tongue and like him even less. (PDF page 13) - "If she is beautiful too, I can’t go after her" - Excuse me, what?! So if she's ugly he can? This is really too much. I'm this close to stopping reading. - "It’s bad business" - I don't understand. Actually bad for business? Why? Also, chivalry has nothing to do with business. - "Many villagers support the king and the church’s mission of massacring the Elves, trolls, and other creatures because they are ugly" - What?! I don't understand. I thought this was to do with killing women and children? This makes no sense. Isn't this completely contra to the earlier motivation? - "To go after an unmarried beautiful woman will cause chaos and revolts" - I don't understand this line of reason. She's a proven killer. (PDF page 14) - "She might be" - Now he's afraid? - "How could M kill someone who didn’t look like a monster?" - Shallow. I think less of him now. - "He had money, he was rich" - Not a chivalrous thing, as far as I'm aware. Also, "he could retire tomorrow and never work another day" - I thought I understood his motivations before, but I think that was just in the flashback when he was a boy. So, what it his motivation now? Is it the fame? I'm confused. - "wore as little chainmail as he dared to help his stealth" - No. Not stealthy at all. chainmail. Not stealthy. - How does he find her? I'm confused. They know who she is, but no one else can do anything about it? I don't understand. - "the Trojan war" - No, wait. How can the Trojan war have taken place? This is a fantasy world, but I hasn't been set up as an alternative Earth. This comes out of nowhere. I made a comment about the names sounding like they were taken from Earth, but how does this fit with the fantasy wars that are mentioned. Does this mean that all the Greek and Trojan characters are real. So does this mean there are Greek gods? How does this fit into the world? - All this talk of business, I can't reconcile it with the setting. (PDF page 15) - "M froze as he saw L’s eyes lock with his" - You don't see someone's eyes lock with yours. Their eyes lock with yours. I moan about this in everyone's work and I'm trying to weed it out of mine, but when you put another layer of serration between the character's reaction and the reader, it's very distancing. - "the falling net" - The tone of the story... This, to me, is like a cartoon moment. (PDF page 16) - "They sold intelligence" - Modern phrase, very disorienting, IMO. - "to have been framed" - Another one. - "sawed at the net behind him" - With what? (PDF page 18) - "Then you’re lucky I only kill monsters" - I like the mirroring of his line. That's neat. - "celebrating their success" - before the deed was done? There's a danger in making the villain's stupid, careless, too actually villainous to be realistic of convincing. It's something I suffer from. Making the bag guys too bad. (Convincing) Villains think they are the hero of their own story (Writing Excuses quote). They think they are in the right. Villains that just act evilly turn out to be less convincing, I think. - The ending really beats the readers head with the explanation. I'd recommend giving the reader credit for being able to work out what the message of the story is about, which has been really clear for many pages. I just find it really heavy-handed at the end, rather preachy. Bad people do bad things. I get it. It like the message is all rich people are bad, and all poor people are good, which is just not the case. OVERALL I was going to break this own into various elements, but it's maybe more helpful if I just look at it as a whole. I'm going to be completely honest, I think this is a long way from being ready for publication, or even submission. At Worldcon in Dublin, I went to a lot of publisher / editor panels and one thing that John Berlyne of the Zeno Agency said really stayed with me. He said that you need to edit, edit, edit and edit; edit until you cannot make your story a single bit better, and then submit it, and we will tear it apart. My point being, I think this is quite a few edits away from being ready for submission to a publisher or a market. I don't think the structure is right, and I don't know anything about character motive or plot or inciting incident until over half way through the story. I don't feel any empathy for the main character--that is not essential--but I need to at least find them compelling so that I read on anyway, because I have to find out what happens, but I never really felt engaged with the character, or the story. Why should I care what happens to a bunch of privileged and superior arses when someone is trying to bump them off? I don't care: good luck to the assassins. So, if I don't care for the targets, I need to care about the main character, but I don't know what he wants. I know he wanted to become a knight, but what does he want now? Something that I am bad for in my drafts (and probably my final drafts ) is lack of clarity in terms of motivations, but also what is going on in the story, and why certain things happen. I will say that I felt that here, in terms of what was a dream or a flashback and what was not. I'm not sure how to conclude here, other than to underline I think this needs a number of rewrites before it's ready for submission. I guess this is not what you want to hear, and I'm sorry not to be more positive. I do thank you for submitting, and I believe you are in a good place here to get lots of good advice on how to tackle this. There is a good idea here, but the message of the story is very clear from an early stage, and yet the ending really pounds it so heavily that I found it quite off-putting by the time I got to the end.