MagicMaggot

Nightblood accepting agency was pretty high up for me as well.

I certainly got the "with great power comes great responsibility"-aspect, and the oaths were a nice shorthand for taking up that responsibility, but you think we were meant to equate oath-taking with responsibility? I think you're just flat-out wrong on that one, sorry. Power-> Responsibility makes sense. Oaths -> Responsibility as well. Oaths -> Power is true on Roshar, but hardly a moral message. Responsibility -> Power doesn't strike me as true or moral, and it certainly was never central. Responsibility -> Oaths and Power->Oaths seem obviously wrong to me. So we certainly have more complex relations between these concepts than identity, even on Roshar. I also think you are reading more into Adolin's philosophy than the text actually gives us. His arguments are at best half-formed intuitions. But his actions very clearly show that he doesn't reject either responsibility, nor duty. His definition of a promise, as opposed to an oath, still requires one to earnestly do one's best to keep it. The whole book he is fighting for Asir beyond the call of duty, he is trying his best to keep his promise to Maya, even when he doubts the outcome, and he is taking on responsibility for Yanagawn, because he thinks the boy needs a friend. If you think Adolin's lived philosophy is all about denying responsibility, you have very likely misread him. And if there is a message in him getting power without oaths, it certainly isn't connected to shirking responsibility. As far as I am concerned he got powers because he storming well deserved them for quite some time. Well, yes. That's why I only quoted that one.

Yeah, I think I'll do just that. If the topic starter is still around and hasn't finished the book since tuesday, he can take this as my spoiler warning. Else I don't think we need to perpetuate a Wandersail-situation here, and the quotes in quotes in spoilers aren't exactly comfortable to follow. I didn't get anything of that before this book, to be honest. In Oathbringer he decided which law to follow blindly, and in RoW the closest he came to making an idependent decision was killing Taravangian, which wasn't exactly a moment of character progression for him, and deciding on cleansing Shinovar (if Dalinar agreed), which was kind of an obvious move for him. So I'm surprised somebody would be surprised that the decision issues of the guy who unquestioningly followed anyone who held his rock for years, would have been undone by that. I get the criticism of the magics involved here, Sanderson got kind of squishy with his supposedly hard magic in this book, and I don't enjoy that myself. And I get there is some speculation going on, how Adolin's view could somehow become prevalent, totally changing the message of the books in the later half. But that hasn't happened yet, so I find it to be too early for that criticism. If you don't trust the author to make the situation reasonably interesting that's fine, but it's not exactly a helpful argument for now. As far as I see it, Adolin's rejection of swearing oaths himself isn't really undermining much of anything. If he didn't think oaths were important, there'd be no harm in making them. And if one thinks that the correct solution to the story of the man who sat on the chair for 10 years was, that the man should just never have sworn that oath... well, that's actually exactly what Adolin is doing. Yeah, he is arguing that regretfully breaking a stupid oath is better than keeping it, but in practice he is just not making oaths he isn't sure about. And if one truly likes oaths to be a central building block of the series, I find it hard to understand why one would reject critical perspectives on the topic in the middle of the series. Looking towards the future... I find it very hard to imagine Adolin of all people starting some philosophical movement on Roshar. The Unoathed certainly weren't sworn in on Adolin's anti-oath philosophy (obviously), they just took up arms. And if it isn't Adolin, but the Azish that take up his ideas and expand upon them, I'd expect some serious reworking of the arguments here, to the point where we wouldn't really be talking about the same thing anymore. On Sadeas, I have no clue why people keep bringing that one up as if there was something left open. Killing Sadeas just wasn't the start of some character-changing arc for Adolin, it was a revelation of who he was, and a wedge between him and his father. If some god ever challenges Adolin to a silly debate, I am sure it will be brought up. But I'd expect the reader to have to survive without Brandon making it explicit that murdering traitorous warlords is a bad thing. Maybe because I'd not be so certain on that one myself. There is one in the text, though: She had been changing quickly, ever since their visit to the tower. A living Urithiru appeared to have invigorated her, and had also somehow strengthened whatever was happening between them. She said the Light of the tower made her feel refreshed, and he felt her in his mind stronger now. She could see into the Physical Realm through his eyes, including when he hadn’t summoned her as a Blade, and she’d been responding more and more, even volunteering comments. I'll agree that it is more vague than I'd appreciate, and would hope for that to be explored more in the future, but for now it is an explanation.

Considering Retribution's emergence that forced her to cut ties to Roshar as quickly as possible was basically the most destructive way of getting free? Probably, yes. If she wanted to be free, she only needed to manipulate Dalinar into granting her freedom. If he could grant it to Odium, he could grant it to her, and he wasn't exactly hard for her to lead around. Heck, going into the spiritual realm on her sayso was basically enough already, because it would have been his forfeit in the contest, if she arranged for him not to be back in time. Just getting free was never the plan here. And what she had left on Roshar was never in more danger than after Retributions emergence, so she certainly wasn't doing anything to safe them here. Which means that either Retribution is part of her 10D-chess masterplan, or she failed spectacularly. Either losing for a time was part of a long-term winning strategy, or she just lost.

As strange as I find it to put spoilers on WaT-spoilers in the WaT-spoiler board...

There certainly are some inversions on Oathbreaker's themes, with nuance being part of the exploration of more than one ethical concept, but rejecting responsibility? I'm not seeing that one at all. Indeed, I'd say the importance of accepting responsibility for one's actions is repeadedly reaffirmed in WaT. We're just also moving on to what happens after one did that.

The origin of the Unmade seems to be deliberately withheld for some reveal, and I find it hard to see why them being some original rosharan spren or people that we don't know anyway would be interesting enough for that. I guess there could be something interesting about the corruption process in general, but as close as we got to it with the Sibling that seems like a bit of a leap as well. So yeah, it would make more sense to me, if they were connectred to something from off-world, either from Ashyn or from Odium's wild days as a divine serial killer, ripping pieces off powers that he might well have corrupted.

She is still alive, and she still has cards on the table that can make a difference. But if everything that happened with Taravangian, Dalinar, and their shards was part of her masterplan, it better be a really, really, really good one, because as far as we can see right now she risked a lot and lost a lot. For me it makes the most sense that she just cultivated people because that is her power's thing, and had only vague plans of how they might be used in the future, which led to catastrophe, when she found people who actually would become viable vessels. But that would be kind of disappointing, since that does make her kind of a bumbling idiot that utterly destroyed Roshar's status quo by pure accident. Considering how much we were teased about her moving in the shadows, and how she had a better grasp of the future than most shards... well, it would be really nice, if there was anything behind that besides hot air. But looking at the figurative map right now I really have no idea where her plan could be going here. If there is one.

On Lifelight and Voidlight I'd note that we still potentially have Bondsmith+-level spren around for both. If the Sibling can really still get its Towerlight from the spiritual realm, I don't see why we would think it impossible for the Nightwatcher or BAM to get their own lights. Maybe with some help in finding their tones again, like the Sibling needed?

The one I'd find obvious considering the name of the shard, would be Mercy getting involved in the fight by trying to stop it or its deadly conclusion, and failing, and getting injured in the process. Or, considering the multi-system-nature of the conflict, she might just have been in the line of fire, when 2 fighting gods flew by some of her investments. Just at the top of my head. On Sazed's worry, I find we have too little information on her to narrow it down at all. That could really have been anything. Maybe she pleaded for Mercy for Odium. Maybe she made some worrying prophecies. Maybe she made remarks on him taking up 2 shards. And yeah, maybe she said that the death of the shards would be a mercy to the cosmere, why not. But we're just guessing wildly, aren't we? And I'm not really getting more out of it, if I try to guess what the author's intent in giving us these vague stuff might have been. I guess I can see it preparing us for Mercy being a strange egg, but that could go in many different directions as well... I'm not saying that she can't have actively helped Odium. I am saying that getting that from these 3 remarks is way too much of a stretch for me to take it as a premise.

Ah, so it is a fan theory based on that. Thanks for clearing that up! And no, I wouldn't say that it's a logical jump. A possible one, sure, but I can think of different explanations.

That's not what I was saying, though. Being involved in the fight in some undefined way, and being allied with Odium to kill Ambition, are very different claims. I only knew about the first one, and am curious about the second.

Could you elaborate on that? I knew from the Epigraphs that she was somehow involved (and wounded) in the fight that killed Ambition, and that she worried Sazed somehow, but I wasn't aware we knew her role in the event. I'm not so sure about that. "If Rayse becomes an issue, he will be dealt with. And so will you." and "I have plans to deal with Odium, as I told you before. I will not explain them to you." from the epigraphs don't really sound that passive to me. I think Endowment was perfectly happy with Odium in his cage, but Dalinar triggered the conditions for her to bring her plans into action. Also, she still has too way many pieces on Roshar, and she'd just look like a total incompetent idiot, if everything she did came down to nothing at all. Not impossible that it might come to that, but that would be very dissatisfying to read..

The book pretty much met my expectations, so... yeah, I'm quite happy with that. And I don't mean that in the "my theories were confirmed"-sense, and more that after rereading Oathbringer, RoW and some other minor stuff from the cosmere, this totally fit in the lineup. I still love the world. The characters mostly feel like themselves, and when they don't it's not too much of a problem. The characters that will be moving on to other things in the future mostly got nice sendoffs, and I quite like the hints I saw about the character arcs the second Stormlight arc will have in store for us, Some twists hit for me, some missed, as before. And I love much of the cosmere buildup. I noticed pretty early how this book would be a bit more heavy-handed in forcing everyone to be where they were supposed to be at the right time to get to the right ending, but once things got really going I could pretty easily forget that and enjoy the ride. The Adolin arc and the Tanavast stuff were my highlights, though I find something interesting to me in pretty much all of the storylines. Jasnah's adventures in T's classroom were my least favourite, and I also didn't particularly enjoy Sigzil's stuff, though not knowing the Sunlit Man might have made a difference. And I love how the ending so thoroughly flipped the table that we'll get to know the world as a wholly different place in book 6. What I found a bit disappointing was actually how soft the magic got in this book. Some stuff will be around for future explanations, and that's fine, I guess, but Seth going around and literally lifting the shadows off Shinovar, or Todium just whisking cities to the spirit realm or aging people up, Nightblood just picking up how to grant surgebinding or Ishar just patching up the oathpact while taking away its biggest flaw in 5 minutes, or the unoathed mechanics... A lot of it felt so "mystical", which I don't appreciate so much in a Sanderson book. I honestly missed the RoW-style science to actually work stuff out. I might be in the minority there, but I can't wait for Navani to come back and explain the new world to me in way too many years.

I think the logic behind Todium's motivation was alyso pretty clearly spelled out: Yes, he could have gotten the kingdom without her. But this wasn't about winning the prize, this was about people he respected granting him the victory of being right. I don't see a problem with the debate from his perspective.

I really don't see why we would expect alliances. Retribution is a powerful force, set on killing ALL of the shards. So everyone will be planning to stop, kill or neuter him in some way, even if that doesn't stop their ongoing plans of interfering with other shards, like Autonomy's actions after Retribution's emergence show. Some of these plans might include cooperating with other shards, but I don't expect they usually will. Banding together isn't really their thing, and they are mostly invested in very different places and projects, so they don't even necessarily have the capacity to work together helpfully.

I personally wouldn't tie something like that into his world-saving ambitions, and rather leave it as a humanizing thing. The guy is still just a guy, and there must be a plethora of friends, lovers and family-members he lost over the millenia, with new corpses in his wake wherever he goes. If he got a whiff that there might be mechanisms that could bring people back, and he thought he (maybe as the exist-Dawnshard) might be able to actually pull it off, why wouldn't he explore that. Even if he intellectually knows how such stories usually end, he is more than capable of rationalizing himself into stupid ideas as well. He is lonely.

Ah, thanks. I was specifically critiquing the reading of the posted source here, not claiming to know better. That clears it up.

Hm, so the idea is that if Hoid doesn't know it, one of the five scholars can't have already learned it? Hm, I'm not so sure about that.

Did I misread the answers you posted here, or did Brandon actually not include Vasher in his explanation of what Azure or Hoid could do here? Might not have been deliberate, and there might be other moments he was clearer, sure, but from that question and answer alone I couldn't really deduce that Vasher wouldn't be able to do it.

There is a lot about Ishar's plans and actions that makes no sense whatsoever, yet. I really hope we get some more explanations, when we get to see the heralds interacting in the safe space their minds go to when they don't want to think about being tortured. But yes, for basically everything "well, he is really, really delusional, why would you expect to understand?" is a possible explanation. I mean, the guy had control over a power source, an understanding of magic that shards found impressive and helpful, and command over all the honorblades (minus Jezrien's), with the needed mastery of all the surges. And we mostly know the modern him for letting himself be worshipped by some backwater nation and doing creepy experiments with spren and humans, while repeatedly stating that he had the solution for the war, if they'd just ask him. I'd like to hear what that was supposed to be for, On the quote in question, though... Yeah, that just sounds flat-out wrong. Though I guess with some confusion about timeframes there might be some sense in it? Maybe there was Unmade activity in Shinovar, until Ishar/Tezim took an interest? Maybe there was some (indirect) contact between him and Seth's father, before Seth was born? Delusion and lies are certainly the easiest explanation, but I wouldn't totally rule out some hints about what really was going on in Shinovar before being in there.

I kinda feel like that is the same problem we have had for quite some time now, where non-pov orders, radiants and powers are around, but we don't really get to see their powers and power progression like we did with our first radiants. I mean TaW was basically the first time we saw the division surge or some current stonewards in action, for example, although they were around for some time. If there is no special reason to go into it, the books are too crowded already to do so. Reaching the fifth ideal was similar this time, because while it was supposed to be an important character moment, it wasn't a situation that could be solved with radiant powers, since they were up against a herald here, so we didn't get to see much of the powers. I share the frustration, though. And in general I feel reaching the 5th ideal didn't live up to the difficulty I expected of it. Especially for Kaladin, it seemed more like a small addendum and not a new relevation, after his grueling way towards the 4th. Felt more like just finishing up that chapter than like the character progress I had come to expect. With Seth it was a bit better, but mostly because he was still so very broken that daring to decide for himself could actually be sold as an epiphany. They certainly didn't hype me like ideals often gave me before, even from less central characters.

Well, it obviously will have future relevance in as far as it will inform Adolin's character from now on. But as it is, the argument is barely half formed, because it wasn't supposed to be an argument. We only have a vague distinction between two kinds of promises that makes sense for Adolin. If that was explored and better defined, could it come down to some serious criticism of the concept of Honor as a moral force? I'd say that depends wholly on said explorations and definitions. Something like "The reflexively honorable person (or god) is likely to uphold and enforce oaths, even if with passing time and changing circumstances, the oath is directly working against the reason why it was sworn. To avoid that problem, a new definition of oath is needed, that always checks the validity of the oath against the intenion with which it was made. Let's call that a 'Promise'.", for example, doesn't sound particularly stupid to me, even if I can see obvious challenges from the "who judges that?"-camp. So I'd say it it too soon to judge the long-term impact of Adolin's personal revelation, either to confirm or deny it.

Adolin is not a philosopher. He isn't even supposed to be especially clever. And he himself isn't sure if his terminology makes sense. So of course he isn't giving us a well-formed argument here, he is expressing his emotions. He noticed that he doesn't respect oath-keeping for the oath's sake. He is now close to someone who was basically made a zombie for 1000s of years, because people broke oaths they probably had good reasons to break. He noticed that he was personally uncomfortable with making radiant oaths, though pretty much everyone around him did so without a second thought. And he was trying to define the difference between his approach and that nof his father, who was all about oaths and uncompromising rules being a necessary restriction to keep men from becoming animals (like he was). But he still believes in trying to do one's best, being honest in your intentions and trying to be a good person. This isn't about Honor the power. This isn't about the formation of the Unoathed. And this isn't about disliking the kinds of oaths the radiants make. This is about rationalizing his own feelings and decisions, and trying to find the right words for it. And what he came up with is a distinction between oaths and promises, with promises being a declaration of genuine intent, and oaths being a binding you impose on yourself. He approves of the intent, but not of having an enforcement mechanism that is ultimately unable to keep up with changing circumstances and personal growth. And he thinks that this helps him to understand himself a little better. And we, the readers, don't really have to agree with any of that to enjoy these thoughts as a relevant part the character's current understanding of the world. And as far as I'm concerened the whole thing was very Adolin, and I loved it for that alone.

Seeing how it played out in general, I kinda don't understand the contest and its meaning anyways, so I find it nard what champion would have made the scene more interesting. Maybe I forgot some important tidbits, but I can't really wrap my head around the whole thing. I mean, I kinda get why the Rosharans would find the idea of following the plan that THE ALLMIGHTY set out and that promised some kind of solution for the war problem attractive, but well... Wit was heavily involved in pushing for that contest, and he certainly wouldn't have any delusions about Tanavast's infallability, would he? Nor would he be likely to overlook that his good pal Rayse, holder of the shard of unlimited divine hatred, certainly wasn't planning for lasting peace, but at best for invading stuff in the Cosmere instead of the remaining rosharan nations, or more likely, betting on humans breaking the peace anyways at some point. And Dalinar going in there with some vague "well, I don't understand myself how the contest is actually supposed to work, and I am permanently giving up on half of Roshar even if I win, and my own soul if I lose, but for some reason I think that it is our best chance for lasting peace and Alethkar" felt to me like we were being given incomplete information, and that the characters surely would have to know more, or that would be some additional planning meeting or something... The reader didn't even have that much of a stake in it. So... If Dalinar wins whatever that thing is, two nations where no pov character currrently is, and that we haven't actually gotten to know that much as settings, will be controlled by the good guys, and if he loses... he'll be Odium's superpowered champion in a cosmere crusade? I mean, that doesn't really make me cheer for his triumph. Well, after TaW, it doesn't seem like our information was really incomplete. The contest was indeed a plan that a not particularly smart dead god set out 1000s of years ago... and the added context is only that it was supposed to be a casting for his successor. When the time came, said successor held the power of Honor for 5 minutes, looked at the situation with his enlarged intellectual capacity, and enhanced understanding of the cosmere, asked a dead mentor for his opinion and... more or less instantly judged the whole thing to be useless and stupid. Well, yes, of course I agree with him. I don't understand why I wouldn't have thought so before? If it wasn't supposed to be useless anyways, we wouldn't have send Dalinar on a divine sidequest into the realm of neverending exposition for basically all of his preparation time. Not that I mind the spiritual realm arc, but it certainly pushed the contest totally out of my mind while reading, since everyone, including Dalinar, was too busy with other stuff to care about the specifics. The contest wasn't treated as an event in itself, it was just a reason for the countdown. So when the contest came around I was genuinely a bit surprised that that was still a thing that was supposed to happen, and when it just came down to "here, just murder your brainwashed grandnephew or lose", I was kinda happy that I hadn't been expecting anything, because that would probably have been a letdown otherwise. I do think the "aging up" is kinda stupid, and sets a precedent for the cosmere that I'm not wholly comfortable with, but I don't really think any other innocent would have made it much better or worse. Because it was just so irrelevant. It was all about Dalinar's character moment.