MagicMaggot

Oh, ok, I agree with that. I was thinking more of... well Diagram-style stuff.

Just curious, do you know what gave you that impression? I personally got more of a wily nature spirit vibe that does what feels right in the moment... while what feels right is informed by a good grasp of the future and fortune. It might come down to the same thing, and I'll certainly agree that there'll be a lot of the things she left on Roshar that will make a difference, and which in hindsight might seem like parts of a plan, if they work. But character-wise I don't really see her going through all the computations and deliberately creating extensive plans and contingencies to a larger degree, though I couldn't really argue for it, considering we haven't had her pov. Considering leftover projects I kind of want there to be more between her and Sja-anat, considering Sja and her children were essential parts in getting both Taravangian and Dalinar to godhood, while shielding these plans from Odium's predictions. And since Sja-anat should have been out there all these millenia, and is definitely willing to play all angles, there really should be some form of cooperation here. Or maybe even a direct alliance, since they do seem suited to each other.

Well, even Adolin's Cultivationspren is a military type, and with historical Dustbringers being all about self-mastery I don't think the "Sir!" is much of a hint here. The "swarm of embers" as flamespren seems more convincing to me, now that we know the spren of each armor.

Taravangian is no more forced to make the deal than Rayse was forced to reject it. The power doesn't like it, but it is by no means a dealbreaker. Todium probably wouldn't have much of a problem focussing it on all the passion there was to be had in the divine cagematch, instead of what it couldn't do outside for now. And given some strategic cruelty Dalinar would only have gotten more desperate over time, not less, so the deals on offer certainly wouldn't have gotten worse. We don't know all the rules, yet, but we do know that the more they interfere, the easier they are to get hold of, and the more their limited attention is bound. Connection and all that. That's enough for now and it is the reason why the last chapters have a timeskip of a few months before Retribution even has the breathing room to focus on Roshar at all. What Odium could do while no one cared is totally irrelevant, this is a new situation that will be explored in new novels. And with Sanderson and his rules of magic you can be quite sure that the mechanics of divine confrontations will be explained more in depth the more they are relevant to solving plot issues.

I agree that that is a problem. I do think it follows directy from the setup, though. We couldn't have Dalinar actually thinking through all of the relevant possible futures on the page, because that would be full of spoilers for the rest of the story. If we are told that a divine intellect above Taravangian's best days with divine foresight sees something as the best solution, we kind of have to take it at face value, because it can't go on the page. What will go on the page is book 6-10 proving Dalinar right. I understand why one might not like being shut out from the reasoning, or rather, Sanderson just deciding that a certain conclusion is what would come out of it, without having Dalinar's capacities himself. But that problem has been built in with shards from the start. I don't really think you have to understand and agree with Dalinar's decision to enjoy the series, though it might help. But trusting the author to make the result entertaining should be enough. So we would be back at Tanavast's untenable situation. Constant war and constant escalation. And from what we have seen Todium wouldn't have been any nicer than Rayse. The status quo was one that sent humanity back into the stone age every few years, and it could still have become worse. Yeah, oppression until the other shards can deal with it sounds like a much better option to me. Time might have ground down the Fused, and they might be kind of mortal now, but there is nothing stopping Todium from creating new ones. Or new Unmade, for that matter. We'll still have to see if Heralds can actually be made functional again, but we know That they can be killed just the same as any fused now. And well, if amateur therapy actually works on heralds, why wouldn't it work on fused? Todium is perfectly able to steal a good idea, if he sees it. Or just to kill the therapists, I guess. That's question for RoW Dalinar, not WaT Dalinar. He probably should have, if he valued Roshar over the rest of the cosmere, but he didn't have divine foresight then, and his cosmere advisor wasn't exactly neutral. In WaT the rules of the contest had been set. Of course Dalinar could have freed Todium independent of the contest, but the contest would still have happened, and Todium would have had no reason whatsoever to leave Roshar after being freed. He'd just have better access to ressources from outside. Of course he could have trained forces in the cosmere now, but whyever would he want to just take his whole attention away from the two shards that are on his prime recruitment ground, if he wants to kill them all? We actually don't know how Retribution's rule will look like, yet, and how much he can actually personally interfere without leaving him open to the other shards that are now all looking at and for him.

I personally couldn't really imagine how that would be written into a story. Maybe stories like that are out there, but I'm trying to imagine how you would write something like this, if you aren't starting from your own human way of thinking and abstracting from there, and I'm just coming up blank. I can't really think of any examples. Do you have anything specific in mind?

If you understood their motives, you have related enough to them to understand my argument.

Nothing odd about it. If we can't relate to alien characters, we can't understand their motives, and if we can't understand their motives, everything they do in the plot will just feel randomly assigned by the author, which usually isn't satisfying to the reader. That's why if we don't just want the aliens to be a force of nature, we, being humans, have to start with the human default, and introduce just enough differences that they feel suitably different, but not enough that they go beyond our understanding. That's not an easy balance to strike, and the same thing won't work for every reader.

Is this really supposed to be a "how f...mateable are warforms to you"-discussion? You know they don't have to stay in warform all the time?

I don't actually think Adolin is supposed to be offering any solutions here. As I understood it, he mostly points out the problems with oaths that are part of what made him personally reluctant to swear some of them. Some of them, not all of them, mind you, considering he recently married. The one time Adolin throws his ideas out as a criticism at a system of strict rules, is when Gezamal is demoted for doing "the right thing". He is thoroughly rebuffed: He has no reply to that. Adolin tries to make a distinction between two kinds of oaths, but hasn't really managed to clearly define it to himself, yet, much less convinced anyone of it. Me as a reader included. I am curious to see where this goes, and I like it as a direction for Adolin, but I never saw Adolin as giving us a new "series philosophy" here. Just a vibe. Could you elaborate on where you think Adolin's ideas are supposed to be taken up as true by other characters or at least the reader in this book? The ones that aren't just the critiques of misplaced oath-keeping that you seemed to have granted as reasonable, I mean.

Sure, and physically it would probably make a lot of difference what form we are talking about. Would I like to get physical with an armored warform? Unlikely, that sounds uncomfortable in all kinds of ways. The envoyform fashion spreads looked fine enough though, if it came to that, and I'd expect a lot less sharp edges and more pronounced fun parts on mate forms... And that's assuming that it is about physicality, which it doesn't necessarily have to be to start something.

Singers are very, very human for an alien species. We had multiple singer pov's and while the writing tried to establish some differences in thinking... they really weren't much, and if they had instead been written as some human tribe, I probably wouldn't have noticed anything strange. They even physically very much resemble humans, though they can bond spren to change their bodies some. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly grew up with half-elves, -vulcans, -klingons and others as a pretty standard part of fantasy and sci-fi, and if that was made an issue, then usually to show how unnecessary and destructive the biases against them and their parents were. The singers fit neatly into the "humans with prostetics on their faces"-club I always knew. Wax's case certainly isn't the same, but while I won't discount the possibility of me personally having some hangups about dating a Kandra, it didn't bother me at all, when Wayne did it consensually. The age- and power-differences in dating actually gave me more of a pause than the racial differences. Wit, the ancient Dawnshard, dating a 30-year-old? I guess I wouldn't forbid them if I could, but well, I can't say I expected or cheered for their long-term success. Or the idea of Dalinar as Honor, with his changed capacities trying to keep up a relationship with his wife, that was considered this book... That sounds too imbalanced.

You're talking about wasted pages that would have needed an editor. But that isn't necessarily about Stormlight itself, it is about making the time spent on research pay off. So: 1. The research isn't only applicable to Stormlight, so even if it is gone forever, it still isn't moot. Especially the anti-Light-research might easily be transferred to anti-Warlight. 2. The research might actually be able to create Stormlight from Warlight/Towerlight, so Stormlight could still be relevant through that. 3. Highstorms actually coming back in some form in the later half isn't impossible, either, though less likely. We still have as much SA before us as we have behind us, and a lot can happen in that time, and splinters of Honor are still around.

Another idea how the same effects might have been created with a similar debate setup: Jasnah also has her own kingdom. Todium could have had a debate with her about Alethkar's treatment (or even its freedom) instead of Thaylenah's, in exchange for some minor treason, and pretty much hit all the same beats in there, and got the same kinds of admissions out of her. And it could still have convinced Fen to hand over Thaylenah, if Todium either made Fen a hidden witness somehow, or played a recreation of the debate for her. The offer could and should have been so good that Jasnah should have really struggled with accepting it, with all her rational arguments against it failing, and in the end she could either have rejected it out of pure sentiment, or even tried to accept it with Taravangian mockingly withdrawing the offer after his point was made. And with Fen being convinced by Jasnah arguing for her own interests to do the same, Jasnah could easily have had her crisis of faith. Without expecting Fen in the audience, the showmanship could have been cut out, and with a fellow philosopher, talking about treason in a wholly utilitarian fashion would have been totally in character for Jasnah. I haven't thought about it too much, yet, but I feel that might have worked?

That's a pretty bold prediction for books that haven't been written yet. I would certainly bet on the light-related research still being relevant, even crucial, later, even if it it takes some more time to pay off. And it takes an amount of distrust in the author I find baffling to think otherwise.

Well, as a Windrunner adhesion is already one of his surges, would the idea be that Syl leveling up somehow allowed for him to do spiritual adhesion stuff? Or is it that Syl somehow gets three surges now, with new fun, potentially world-ending, interactions, that his new therapy group could coach him on?

The Blackthorn is the spren reflecting the biggest, baddest warrior, of the biggest, baddest warrior nation of the biggest baddest cosmere warrior world, or something like that. How powerful he is will largely depend on how much Retribution decides to power him up, but certainly enough to cause a stir. And he never had to be the best choice of possible field commanders for Taravangian, because the petty little god was all about glorying in the subversion of his "former friend" to his cause. Since he isn't really meant to dominate Roshar, but the cosmere, we have quite a range of different leagues out there, he can work his way through. And going by Dalinar's assessment, a logical move to level up the capabilities of his armies would be for Mr T to harden his troops by raiding softer cosmere targets first, before moving on to harder ones. The Blackthorn doesn't have to compete with worlds on the level of Scadrial or something, yet, we can see him lead troops to take magics from smaller worlds by force first, making him a general menace. We might actually see that earlier than SA6, considering Retribution doesn't really have a reason to hold him back for 10 Roshar years, so Ghostbloods or Elantris might have first confrontations with him or his bloody work already. And at that point I honestly wouldn't care much if he was the best, or even a really reasonable choice to be the one to be there, I'd just love to see what happens if you filter a deliberately wild version of Dalinar, through more civilized, "modern" perspectives, and just let him get some momentum going.

And while he set it up, he actually didn't have much of a role in leading that group, as far as I remember. He took them out of the dark, and put them together to talk, and he was interested in exploring what worked and what didn't. When the occupation of Urithiru came that instantly ended. And when the occupation ended, the 10-day-countdown began. So how much time did he have for his mental health project from his demotion to the occupation? 2 weeks? A month? It was a nice direction for him to go. And with a time gap of as little as a year or so it would make enough sense for Wit or Dalinar to think of him when thinking about dealing with broken heralds. But the timeline just doesn't work.

You can say that the meta-plot of the cosmere is about the problem of having some 10-16 random guys as unbalanced gods, and finding a solution for it. And yeah, the planet that had 3 of those gods was always gonna be a driving force in that plot. But like @Leuthie said, that hardly makes mortals irrelevant. Whatever the solution for the god-problem will be, it is basically guaranteed to be decided by mortals, and with stuff like Scandial's explosives and Roshar's anti-light I'd be surprised if mortals wouldn't have very deadly leverage over shards, before all this is done. That's why there is such a focus on new techs and magics. And yeah, Stormlight arc 2 will likely have a lot of that as well. It will get harder to enjoy the regional plot without enjoying the parts of the meta-plot it touches on. Probably better to be clear about that, when making the decision to continue reading, rather than being surprised and unhappy.

Just going by the language here, but wouldn't "dead" shards already qualify for a yes, since they aren't held by anyone, much less their original holder? Else I'd be very interested to learn how the shards would have passed. Odium as a divine serial murderer left an obvious trail, with his least spectacular kill being Honor in the 3-way-cagematch they had going there. And Wit didn't seem to know about any vessel willingly giving up power before Vin. So if there was some transition it would have been less violent than Odium's actions, and not voluntary by a vessel Wit kept tabs on. I guess especially with someone like Whimsy it might have been hard to even notice the change of vessel? So that would still be my best bet, if it happened. Or was there already such a thing as deicide by mortals, or death by "accident"? I guess if I had to bet on a shard accidentally killing themselves I'd have to go with Invention, by concept alone. Though I'd still expect that to be a somewhat "loud" ending, so I'm still not convinced it would have gone under the radar.

I'm not sure if Sanderson's perspective on oaths changed noticably in this book, but in general I don't think noticing an ideological shift would be a viable criticism for the quality of the book. I guess the idea is that especially Szeth being asked to question even directly divinely approved law hit a bit too close to home, even with the knowledge that the Shards most definitely aren't supposed to be capital g God in the cosmere? And considering that is isn't exactly a new criticism to be leveled at religion, and a religious person might like to get away from that in their escapist literature, I do think I can understand why that would affect one's enjoyment here. There certainly were scenes in the book where I felt it touched too blatantly on discussions I don't particularly like to see transfered to Roshar. That very much falls under "tough luck", though, as far as I'm concerned. We're reading thousands of pages of Sanderson's thoughts, it's neither reasonable to expect him to be able to keep all of his believes out, nor to expect them to be unchanging over time, nor to expect him to fake them to align with our own. There is certainly room for criticism where it gets preachy, but I don't think we can say that about the oath-situation. If it's a dealbreaker, it's a dealbreaker. But as a criticism it goes nowhere.

As opposed to reading about fake places, fake politics, fake battles, fake people, fake relationships and fake magics? I mean, not everything will work for everyone, especially emotionally, and the science certainly was a departure from the rest, but with fantasy entertainment throwing "pointlessness" of certain elements around is... well, just missing the point, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm still not sure I understand the criticism at all. Is it that Brandon created a world with its own moral universe, where oaths are always good, and putting that into question is destroying the pleasant illusion? Or is it that oaths are actually always morally good outside of the books, and Brandon is undermining objective morality by questioning that now, after drawing in the righteous by pretending he understood them? I mean, both sounds kinda strange to me, to be honest but... different kinds of strange, I guess?

On the mythology issue I do have some hope that we might get back into that again in the later half, at least for a time. Compared to the magic city of Urithiru sending out superhero knights to Roshar's grand coalition of nations and fighting armies led by magic demons from hell, fighting some natives on the Shattered Plains and princedom politics are kind of small scale. That left more room for cultural details within the first books than the later ones, where we had cultures mixing in an emergency situation. Well, for book 6 the emergency is kind of gone. Yes, there is still oppression to deal with, and long-term goals to work on, but the borders are fixed until further notice, and without portals and magic knights, and with no ticking clock for the moment, local cultures, religions and politics might have more relevance again. If there ever is a time within the series to slow down and marvel at the strange world of Roshar and its history again, maybe with some characters that haven't gone all cosmeropolitan in Urithiru, I think that would be it. That said, a lot of it will of course be irreclaimable. I mean... we're dealing with pov gods and heralds now, and discussing enlightenment philosophy. That's some progress that can't really be stopped. It can be more or less destructive, depending on how it is done, though.

I feel that would really undermine the WaT finale. If other Shards were already working to help, creating Retribution to bait them certainly sounds like a misfire. So I don't believe she herself is involved. And well, Vasher took Nightblood, and Vivenna came hunting for it, so there isn't really much of a mystery why all three were there. There certainly are some mysteries about Vasher, also known as Gavilar's scholar, who brought anti-voidlight to Roshar, and who for some reason took Nightblood to that world, just to abandon it. But I don't think that implies shardic intent. Endowment's gifts are usually no-strings-attached, aren't they?