Dros

Brandon's readings on SA2 made me start thinking about why Gavilar's intended actions that he related to the Parshendi would be so disasterous. And why did the Parshendi think his actions would open the door for the return of their "gods"? First, who would their gods be and, if they are Parshendi gods, why would their return be bad? So, first assumption/speculation, the Parshendi gods are Heralds. (Remember they have items with the images of Heralds on them) If the Heralds show up, so does a Desolation and that's bad, I think for obvious reasons. Second, what does the release of a Herald signify? The coming of a Desolation. Third, what actually makes the Desolation come? The release of the Heralds. Fourth, what was Gavilar planning? I think he was planning on making the ideals well known among the populace. Maybe he got the Parshendi together beforehand and they discussed next steps, and Gavilar announced he was going to teach his people about the ideals. At some point, the Parshendi knew there was probably at least one honorable guy out there who would figure out how to access power through speaking the ideals. Fifth, Kaladin speaks the ideals, accesses power through Stormlight and shortly thereafter...Taln shows up. Perhaps the KR figured out that speaking the ideals sparks a Desolation, so they gave up Shardplate and Blade to break the cycle. So, speaking the ideals triggers the Desolation. Kaladin, unwittingly, just opened the door for the final Desolation. Now for the myraid of holes in this. 1. The KR had not always existed, at least we know they hadn't existed during Nohadon's life up to the point of Dalinar's vision, so how could Heralds be released if there was no one speaking the ideals? Perhaps it was done another way? Perhaps just because the KR weren't around during Nohadon's life, that doesn't mean there wasn't some organization before the last Desolation that he didn't know about that knew how to access Honor's power. Desolations wipe out people, but they also wipe out knowledge and history. 2. Also, we know the KR existed for quite some time after the Last Desolation and I would assume they had continuewd to recruit folks into their ranks, thereby repeating the ideals quite a few times, so why weren't they triggering a new Desolation everytime the ideals were spoken then?.....I really have no idea, and this might be the reason this theory doesn't work. 3. If speaking the words releases the Heralds and thus brings a Desolation, why would anyone write them down? Why wouldn't they just wipe such words from the lexicon of language...you know, just do something to make sure the words were never spoken? Maybe Honor was bound by the Oathpact, as well. He is bound by the Oathpact to fight the Desolations, but at least he can give his guys a chance by binding their enemy, as well. The Enemy can't bring on a Desolation until the Heralds are released. Honor makes sure only taking certian actions will give access to his power and binds the release of the Heralds to that....maybe. By leaving Taln to suffer, maybe Ishar is right, perhaps only one Herald needs to be returned to "that place" and what really would break the cycle of Desolations is making sure he was never released. Although, Jezrien did say they would have the KR so humans would be alright...so not sure what to think of that kink in the theory. Well, I just wanted to get that out there to see if anyone has along those same lines.

I haven't seen one, sorry.

Not sure how many have listened to the audio, so I'll try to use spoiler tags:

That's actually how a lot of scholars treat ancient writings about many cities. Troy? They thought it was just a figment of Homer's imagination for quite some time. There have been others treated as such...until they were found. Plato describes Atlantis, do you know any scholars who would say there's no reason to think it's a myth? I think Brandon gets it right on this type of stuff. As civilization moves along, fact and fiction, legend and myth, names and places really get jumbled up over time. We're still not really sure what happened to the Mayans and we don't know much about the Incans, and these guys were around only 500 years ago. And their descendants are still around too...they don't really know what those cultures were all about either. They have an idea, sure, but the details are sketchy. Random pyramids and majestic cities have been found in the middle of South and Central American forests just in this century. I think Brandon is pointing out how easily history can be forgotten...or turned around to fit one's own beliefs. If the KR are seen as one of the most vile organizations throughout history, it would probably benefit the Vorins to say they never liked 'em anyway...they would probably go this route: "Urithiru? Right smack in the middle of a Vorin kingdom? Didn't exist, okay!? So, we weren't involved in this whole Recreance thing, okay!? Besides, we hate the KR, okay!? So don't be pissed off at us...not our fault...didn't really know 'em anyway. So, KRs? Punks. No way they could build something like Urithiru. We're better than them. By the way, we're taking over." Also, Meg, didn't one of the quotes say that Urithiru couldn't be in Alethkar, so they decided to put in the West, near Honor? I think that would mean Alethkar should be your starting point.

Wow, Satsuoni, I hope I never get on your bad side.

Very good points. And just to add a little to that. They might not be sure that if they die they won't be sent back to whatever hell they had been sent to before. If they had really been broken, I would bet most of them would try to find a way to avoid being killed, assassinated, etc. Best way to do that would probably be to stay out of sight, out of mind. Little human contact as possible. Stay away from any situation that might get you killed. But if they did feel so much remorse that they felt they had to do something, I imagine Cheese Ninja would probably be correct. Operate from secret or as a beggar or something similar, still trying to keep your head down.

Lan. I mean...Lan. I really did see a lot things coming, at least in a general way. Knew Perrin would kill Slayer, somehow. Knew Mat would lead the forces of Light at the LB, somehow. Knew Rand would beat the DO, somehow. Knew Egwene would do something cool, somehow. Knew the Heroes of the Horn would turn the tide, somehow. But Lan. MFing Lan, baby. Did not see him sticking his sword into Demandred's throat. I thought, yeah, he'll kill a lot of 'em and do some badass things, but really didn't see that coming. Actually, during the book, I really thought it was going to be Mat who whooped up on him with the Ashanderei, especially after Gawyn AND Galad went down, and we had a little foreshadowing of Mat besting them both the qaurterstaff way back in the day. Lan. Could be one of my favorite parts of the whole thing. * And this is weird because I never thought Lan was that cool of a character. He was alright and did some cool stuff, but nothing really, really epic. He served Aes Sedai, period. Until now. Skip if you don't like the Sun discussion. Oh, and the Sun thing...wouldn't that kinda set off a thermonuclear explosion on Earth's surface, since the Sun is one big thermonulclear fusion reaction going absolutely out of control? Sorry, couldn't resist.

I think happyman has it right. The choice, of course, is important, but the resistance and defense of the Pattern itself must be effective. I've never read the books you're referring to either, so it would be difficult to say how that might effect my opinion of it all. However, I think, all in all, the struggle is about choice, insofar as it allows one to resist even when hope seems lost, which seems to be somewhat different than what you're describing. The Turned wish to quit when they realize they have lost. Seems like such a simple concept for such a large epic, eh? I will say I wasn't very surprised by the ending, but I was...very satisfied. Which is good enough for me. Morsk, what you describe is actually what I like about the series. It's also what I like about George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire...the folks you pull for aren't always the nicest guys around, and they're never, ever perfect. RJ was a bit nicer to his characters, of course, but they weren't boy scouts or girl scouts either. It's almost like pulling for you're favorite football team.

But to access the power, one still has to speak certian words aloud for whatever reason. Kaladin was goaded by Syl and an unknown voice to speak the words that sparked in his mind. Perhaps the way one intends to act, or has acted in the past, allows the words to spark. HOWEVER he must speak an oath to continue to act on those noble, or honorable, intentions to actually gain access to one of the Shard's magic systems. I believe it's more complicated than just what one has done in the past.

I'm not sure the Thrill is shard-linked. I think it might be just something all Rosharians are in danger of falling prey to on a world where a Shard named Odium is/was present. The KR in the visions told Dalinar that killing, even killing Voidbringers and their minions, does something to a man and the KR could teach him how to protect himself from those ill effects. I think the Thrill might be maginified by using a Shardblade, but the Thrill itself is probably native to Rosharians based on the presence of Odium, just my opinion.

I don't know if that's actually the case, though. The Heralds aren't like the Forsaken from WOT. The Heralds have been around for the 4500 years. Such a long life might really damage a person's psyche rather than give them vasts amounts of wisdom. IIRC Brandon has said they are all dealing with insanity in one way or another. It has been theorized that the beggar in the beginning is a Herald...if that's truly the case, it seems that one Herald at least doesn't have it together. One is supposedly scratching her face off of statues, I'm no psychologist, but that doesn't seem like normal, healthy behavior. I would think the Heralds will not be the leaders of this world, but just individuals sliding through the lower depths of civilization, just trying to make it through existence.

I think it was discussed at some point on here that there was a time on Roshar that it was known that there were three godlike Shards on Roshar. One of the epigraphs said "Shard of my soul..." and another stated "Three of sixteen ruled...", which actually goes far beyond just knowledge of the three on Roshar, but includes knowledge of ALL the Shards. (I actually hadn't really thought of what that means. That's actually a big deal...that's a huge amount of knowledge about other worlds and the nature of Shards and even of Andolasium for someone or something to have on Roshar, a world where there is very little knowledge of the past.) Plus BS has gone through a lot of trouble to show how ancient wisdom and knowledge has been changed, warped and forgotten over thousands of years. I think for whatever reason, the existence of Shards became legends, which became myths, which were soon forgotten, etc. etc. WoT stuff etc.

Everyone in-world who knows about the Shards and Odium has been saying Odium is coming. Implying he's not on Roshar yet. I know the storm face guy said Odium reigns, but if he's not yet on Roshar how could that be? It just seems too easy for Odium to be the only antagonist in all this. I'm thinking we're looking at multiple fronts of a continuing war. Odium might not be fighting on behalf of Roshar, but I'm not convinced he's the Broken One. I agree with the earlier comment, Odium is doing what he's supposed to do, hate things. BS has been very careful about what certian adjectives mean, i.e. splintered, shattered, etc. "Broken" probably means something we haven't beenprivy to yet.

If Syl is a splinter of Cultivation it could explain why she doesn't like Shardblades. They don't create or cultivate anything. I know, I know, she's an Honorspren so she should be a splinter of Honor--but ya never know, right?

Wow. You know what, I have resisted this theory in the past, but now that I think about it, Brandon has said that Odium is not interested in picking up multiple Shards like Sazed because he likes being what he is, Intent on hating, and picking up another Shard would change that. Being reunited with all the Shards to reform Andolasium would definitely change his Intent. Perhaps Hoid is trying to put Andolasium back together and Odium is reisting him and going around splintering Shards to slow Hoid down even more.

Didn't TLR move his planet and screw it up? Although the minds controlling the Shards have the power to do just about anything, it doesn't mean they know how to do it safely or correctly. Perhaps that holds them back as much as anything.

There is definitely something important about these maps. I think combining the information from each map, that might be hidden or perhaps it's hiding in plain sight, will eventually tell us something very important. I just have no idea what that is. There are many theories though. Maybe you'll find a connection.

I think if the Radiants suspected Odium was gaining strength from the improper use of Shardblades, they wouldn't have just given them up to random people in the world. They would have probably tried to get rid of them in some way or created a system to stash them away and guard against anyone using them again. However, I really do think you're on to something about the black smoke and the afytereffect of killing with Shardblades. It may be that you're completely right about killing non-voidish folk with a Shardblade strenghtens Odium in some way, I just don't think anyone has caught on to that yet. Also, I think the Heralds abandoned the Honorblades for a very simple reason as explained by Kalak in the beginning of tWOK...they couldn't take it anymore, Odium finally broken them.

I've thought about that as well. However, it's possible there's something wrong with Odium beyond just hating everything. Is it possible for the mind controlling a Shard to go mad?

Not positive. However, the voice that halts Kaladin's joy ride on the highstorm at one point says, "Odium is coming." Maybe he means he's on Roshar and coming after the populace, but it was my understanding that meant he had not yet returned/or arrived on Roshar.

None of this is canonical though, right? This guy is definitely a lot different than Szeth. He's kind of a d!ck actually.

Hoid's quote could be referring to someone we haven't seen yet. I wouldn't think he's referring to Odium, who isn't on Roshar yet. And it was my understanding from what was said in the letter, that Hoid was on Roshar as a result of Honor's shattering. After thinking about it, we know Hoid was present when Andolasium was shattered, but that doesn't mean there weren't others present as well. Perhaps there are other folks like Hoid around the Cosmere and it's one of those he is "chasing" and then hiding from.

So that means Hoid knows Honor is dead in TWoK, but at the time he wrote the letter he didn't include that--seems strange. Why wouldn't he have included it to strengthen his argument? Maybe the death of Honor was a lot more recent than we have theorized? Maybe Hoid's war has already begun and Honor was the first big casualty.

Does anyone know if Brandon is a Freemason?

Ah, the eels, you're are correct, sir. There's even a picture of the little buggers in the book. However, I was thinking more along the lines of much larger creatures that fly. The eels fly yes, but I wouldn't think they inspire fear or legends or even myths. It could be the creatures illustrated are much smaller than I'm thinking, but I would think people would remember or remark more often about a creature that looked like that and was larger than a man. I see a hawk in flight and I say, wow, that's big dang bird, although I see smaller flying animals all the time. Even condors inspire legends. I just think it's strange that there might exist, or might have existed, such large flying animals and no one has mentioned them at all in the books, besides that drawing. I don't think they're dragons. But I don't think they're just your normal run of the mill animal who are common in-world either.