Dros

I would love to know if anyone knows or has a theory about who or what spoke to Kaladin right before he spoke the first part of the KR Oath. Syl pleads with him to say the words and then a voice, written in all caps, told him to speak the words, as well. I have my own thoughts, but I was wondering if there were others who have thought on this. I remember seeing something on it a while ago, but I've been unable to locate where I saw it. So was it a Shard of Andolasium? Jezrien? A figment of Kaladin's imagination?

I always thought Chuck Norris held the "Roundhouse Kicks to the Face Shard of Andolasium." In order to access his power, you must have an intent to roundhouse kick someone in the face. Allomancy is child's play compared to that!

I honestly believe Plate sets were created for the reasons Telcontar describes above. I believe the Plate is supercharged by someone wearing it who has spoken the Oaths. The Blades are probably similar. He's looking for some way to increase their chances of surviving and winning future Desolations, so having weapons at hand would make sense. Just because they do horrible things when used against humans doesn't make them of Odium. A cheese grater could do quite a bit of damage to flesh, but that doesn't mean cheese graters are made with evil intent. The problem for me is the technology to create such things was non-existent on Roshar at the time. Kalak describes the people walking alongside the KR as pretty primitive. I'm making the assumption this was after Nohadan, since KRs didn't exist during his time. If the people then could create such items, Roshar would look a lot different. I think an outside entity had to have either provided the items themselves or just a controlled amount of knowledge to someone with the capacity to create them. There's only a finite amount of Plate, so there were internal controls built into their creation as well, which denotes a controlling force or authority. Although, they're called Desolations for a reason. There was probably quite a loss of technology after one of those bad boys.

I haven't heard that one. Is there somewhere I can read about that?

I think a lot of folks have hypothesized just that, but no concensus seems to have come from it.

I don't know, man. I live near the NC coast and I've never seen a storm wall that well defined. Maybe it's because I'm a little inland, but Highstorms seem a lot more devastating than hurricanes...they literally strip the soil from the land. Never seen a hurricane do that--especially inland. Windrunner--- I've thought that too. Oaths seem like something Honor would use. That's the wrinkle. I mean, there could be a number of reasons that Cultivation might use an Oath. For example, maybe she wanted to help Honor with constructing the KRs, but didn't feel comfortable giving so much power to one group of folks. Honor comes up with a compromise---they say these Oaths, Honor binds them somehow and then Cultivation can give access to her power without feeling it might be misused. However, there's no way to know for sure, but it just seems right to me. Cultivation is in the mix somehow, her influence is evident to me, but it's difficult to pin it down with so little information.

I had the impression that the comment about the element being protected like his own skin was related to his comment to Kaladin that he had stolen himself. I can't remember his exact quote, but it was something like "I'm a thief, my name was the first thing I stole...the other was myself." That statement just seemed important for some reason. So I thought perhaps his statement in the letter that the addressee was probably still angry, was referring to his theft of this "element". And I'm sure his wit allows him to make a play on words with both the addressee and Kaladin. Except he's rubbing it in the face of the addressee and just kind of playing with Kaladin. I'm thinking by keeping the element in his possession the addressee could control Hoid or it wasn' ever really Hoid's in the first place, but something he had been using for quite some time (perhaps a possession of the original Hoid?). So Hoid stole it from the addressee, restored himself to whatever he was and has been avoiding the 17th Shard who has been sent to find the element and nuetralize Hoid. As to what it is? I have no clue, but I just get the feeling it's something we haven't seen yet.

Windrunner and Telcontar, that part about Szeth hearing that Voidbringers hold Stormlight perfectly is what I was referring to before. I just made an assumption they hold Stormlight for their own magic system. That, of course, might not be the case. My theory was that Stormlight just makes you better. What is made better is of no consequence...of course that raises the question of what exactly is the definition of "better". For example, is making Voidbringers more capable at causing desolation and mayhem still considered making them better? However...after thinkling on this for a little bit, I think you're right on this. Stormlight is just the fuel. Quite frankly, I'm thinking that I completely agree that Surgebinding is Honor's magic system. Szeth is doing it and he seems to be acting as honorable as possible, considering the circumstances. Kaladin is doing it before he says the Oaths and has attracted an Honorspren. I agree it's called an Honorspren, how obvious does it need to be? And I really do like the reference to the mists. I like the idea that maybe the Highstorms were similar. Just a consequence of the Shard's influence on Roshar. And as far as Intent goes, I look at this way: (let me know if this is a mistaken view of what it implies) Users of Cultivation's power need to have an intent to make themselves "better" through their actions because that meshes with the Shard's intent. The definition of "better" would need to be clarified, though. Users of Honor's power would need to act with honor, because that meshes with Honor's intent. The definition of "honorable" would need to be clarified, though. Brandon has gone out of his way to show the Parshedi appearing to act honorable, amid several instances of dishonrable actions(assasinations and killing defenseless bridgemen). So would they be considered honorable? User's of Odium's power need to really hate someone or something, because that meshes with Odium's Intent. I wouldn't think we need clarification on hate. Now moving back to the magic systems: What helped me clarify what I think is going on in all this is: 1) Nohadan saying Surgebinders had a Nahel Bond, but it didn't make them wiser and there was a need to make people "better". I presume the KR developed for that reason and they discovered the Oaths would open up vast amounts of power. I'm making the assumption they didn't need to say the Oaths to have access to the power that allows Surgebinding. 2) Kaladin was Surgebinding before he said the Oaths and after he said them he didn't go ballistic with lashings, but with his spear and agility, things he already knew. 3) Szeth doesn't seem to have an Honorspren, but has Surgebinding abilities presumably due to his honorable Intent. Now the meat: What Kaladin does after he says the Oaths isn't Surgebinding is it? It just made him better...perhaps what we saw was Cultivation's magic system. Something similar to ChayShan (sp??). The Oaths made preexisting abilities better. The Oaths allow KRs to use Surgebinding better. They can "fly", etc. I know Honor told Dalinar to raise the KRs again, but maybe the Oaths are Cultivation's contribution to Honor's effort against Odium. The Oaths are what Cultivation needs to hear to grant power to the right people, i.e. KRs. Surgebinders can be KRs, but it doesn't necessarily follow that all Surgebinders must be KRs. But only KR Surgebinders reach the level of the KRs we saw in Dalinar's Midnight Essence vision. Think about it. We all agree Szeth is Surgbinding. Can he do what the KRs did in the visions? Even with Shardplate...could he do those things? There might not be combined magic systems, but the KRs, I believe, are a combined effort between Cultivation and Honor. I was getting mixed up because I was thinking of the KRs as only a creation of Honor and Stormlight apparently making Kaladin better. But the Oaths made him better...but not just at Surgebinding--it made him better at everything.

The pattern of gems attracting certain spren brings up another question for me, as well. There are cities that are laid out in different geometric shapes, right. Could that possibly be a way to attract a certain kind of spren to each location? Is that why the giant spren (can't remember its name or the city's name) located there and still remains?

It seems so doesn't it.

Windrunner could be right on this. I associate Stormlight with Cultivation because of Kaladin's use of it. It makes him better, it doesn't grant skill. Stormlight is used to power Surgebinding, but Surgebinding really doesn't fit what I see as Cultivation's Intent. Edit: One thing though, wasn't Kaladin surgebinding before he said the words? He pulled the arrows into his shield before he went Super Kal on the Parshendi. And it doesn't seem that Szeth has an Honorspren, but he's Surgebinding. Things to think on still. However, all magic systems use Stormlight, even Voidbringers apparently. So, it's quite possible Surgebinding is Honor's magic system only and we haven't seen the other two systems at all yet. It's also quite possible that High Storms that produce Stormlight are a naturally occurring event on Roshar and that's why the Shards chose the planet in the first place. It's also possible that Stormlight is Cultivation's contribution to Roshar's people. Possibilities are quite numerous and there's not a lot of info out there to say anything definitively. A lot more info is needed, I agree.

Yeah, I think I might have jumped pretty far out there on that one.

Another broken god machine. It's possible. Honor was splintered in a violent confrontation with Odium, so his magic system might have been effected in some way. Maybe that armor growing on Parshendi warriors is the beginning of Shardplate that isn't able to finish?

I think I agree with Cheese Ninja on this. This might explain why when the measurements of a spren are written down, the spren is bound to those written down measurements.

Here's my thoughts on this (before I get too far into it I want to say I agree Surgebinding is one of Honor's magic systems, but I think there's something else going on as well): I really think it's a mistake to look at Cultivation as a farming thing only. I really think it should be taken more abstractly. To "cultivate" is literally defined as making something better. One cultivates a seed to grow by watering it and making sure it's placed in the sun, one cultivates an appreciation of art by providing access to museums, etc., one cultivates athletic prowess by training, running, lifting and practicing, etc. Using Stormlight and speaking the Oaths only made Kaladin better at what he already knew how to do. It didn't increase his skill, it increased his speed, agility and endurance...it made his innate abilities better. No specific skills were granted. Using Stormlight makes you better, Surgebinding is a specific skill already granted, it seems, fueled through Stormlight though. Kaladin goes Super Kaladin after saying the Oaths, but the Stormlight is the fuel, which he's been using all along anyway. It just wasn't as powerful. He also was Surgebinding before the Oaths. All the Oaths did was make him better. Perhaps Honor made a contract with Cultivation to power up his magic system after his folks speak what he wants to hear...really I have no idea what it might have been, but I really think Cultivation is more involved than she's been given credit for. I honestly don't know the answer to what Shards power what magic systems on Roshar, but I think Cultivation is much more involved than what we're theorizing. This is based on some shaky evidence, but it seems right to me. Oh, and Chaos...didn't Brandon say there would be around 30 magic systems on Roshar? I'm not sure exactly where I saw that or if I'm remembering that correctly. I searched to no avail.

I didn't know that! That makes the character make more sense for me. I must've missed that in my reading...wouldn't be the first time.

Ever since I first read WoK, I've always had a feeling about Taravangian. One that tells me he's more important than is being let on. After seeing his "transformation" from bumbling, kind, old king to half-mad, scheming (possibly borderline evil) king with "good" intentions, it really felt he was much more important than originally shown. And, really, why would Brandon have a whole book dedicated to his point of view? He's an interesting character, but as he is now, it would kind of read like an Edgar Allen Poe book. I mean really, crazy guy kidnaps the dying so he can push the process along and write down potential prophecies? What kind of screwed up individual devises such a plan and what type of really screwed up person actually carries it out? Crazy king wants to start assassinating people so he can get everybody ready to resist during the Desolation? What is your major malfunction, T? Honestly, why would someone in his position (not the most powerful king from only an average in-world power)think it's his responsibility to get the world ready for the Desolation? And how would he know its coming when everyone else besides the Heralds and the Almighty think they're all done? It's possible he just stumbled upon the knowledge, no doubt. But when I saw there would be a book dedicated to his point of view...my first reaction was he might be one of the Heralds who has too many nuts in his fruitcake. I can't recall hearing a lot about his past and where he came from or how he ascended to the throne. It would be a good twist. We've been led to believe the Heralds are the most honorable among the Rosharians, but maybe that isn't so. Some of them might have become pretty devious fellows -or gals- who fight fire with fire. Am I completely off-base? Have I missed something that blows that theory out of the water?

Doesn't this confirm that the Heralds are immortal, as well? The actual Heralds are present. Not their descendants, but in the flesh, Heralds. If we've seen other Heralds, they've been around for 4,500 years without the benefit (I use that word very lightly) of being held in Damnation, which could arguably be outside Time/Space, etc. Which brings me to my question: what are they? Have we encountered anyone besides Shards (who have no mortal, human forms while holding the Shard) who are immortal without assistance from some other power or trick? i.e. Brandon stated Hoid hasn't lived all the years since Andolasium was shattered. He has been doing something to skip around. TLR wasn't immortal and I dare say he had quite a bit of power. Also...I agree, I think Shallash might be the other Herald viewpoint. But you never know. We might have seen other Heralds and simply haven't recognized who they are. They've definitely been hiding, so it probably wouldn't be a stretch to say one of the characters is lying about who they are.

Should've put a spoiler tag on that part about Honor, sorry.

Someone or something prompted the words for him, though. So there's probably something special about the exact phrasing or cadence with how they're spoken. I'd be curious to know if he had messed up the wording, like instead saying "I will, most definitely, protect those who cannot protect themselves" would the effect be the same? -or- Maybe he's not accessing Honor's power, but Cultivation's. edit: I'm biased towards this one, because if Honor's dead, who was prompting him to speak the words?

Makes sense to me. Honor binds things, correct? The spren is bound by the written word, like a contract using Honor's power to enforce it. Perhaps Honor is less a kickass Cosmeric Knight binding beings by chivalry or a warrior's honor and more of the Cosmere's lawyer and contract writer. Maybe the Oathpact is written down somewhere and whatever it was written on is literally broken.

Good points, especially the "limited number" aspect. And when I really think about it, the KRs were walking among an obviously primitive people with their highly advanced weaponry and armor. So the Shardplates and Blades were obviously gifts or leftovers from someone or something not physically present in the world since at least the Last Desolation. Which brings up the question...then where did the Heralds come from? They talk about the people as primitives, so was there a time before when society on Roshar was more advanced and that's when? where?they came from? Why didn't they give some gifts of technology to the primitive people? Just jotting down some ideas might have been quite a big help. They were looked at as dieties and it seems they might be immortal. I always assumed they came from Roshar's population, but I'm not so sure anymore.

I'm somewhat saying that. My point was if someone from Roshar went to Sel, their interpretation of the magic system output there might be different than the natives. Their focus might indeed be different because their DNA and Realmatic interaction is different than a native.

I still don't fully buy that Odium is the "Enemy" or the "Broken One" or that the Parshendi are the Voidbringers. Identifying the true enemies so soon in the series just seems so...unBrandonish. Maybe they're up against whatever shattered Andolasium or something similar. Or...maybe I'm completely wrong and he meant to give it all away because the fight with Odium and the Voidbringers is a subplot for something even bigger that will be revealed later on! Oh well, guess I'll RAFO. And I really don't think the Parshendi are resurrected Parshmen or Gavilar. Is it possible the Parshendi Shardplate bearer saw Dalinar in one the visions he experienced that are similar to Dalinar's? Brandon has seemed to go out of his way to show some honorable traits among the Parshendi...that are completely contradicted by assasinating kings and mowing down defenseless bridgemen with arrows. It's kinda confusing actually.

Thw war may have never ended, per se, but it's my understanding there were enough times of relative peace with the KR standing guard on the front lines for people to take on other pursuits.