Leuthie

Sorry. I always found responses to different posts being different posts, rather than long multi-quote streams of thought, to be easier to follow as a reader. I was responding to your response to the comment about the metallic arts. Hemalurgy is inherently limited by the hurdles you have to overcome to utilize it. For example: To steal Ishar's Connection powers, you have to know the material of the spike, how big the spike has to be, where to put the spike to steal the ability, where to put the spike to give the ability to another; then you need to capture Ishar and spike him in the exact required spot. They you need to find someone who can survive the same spike being driven into the spot required to transfer the ability to them. So the research requirements are huge, the implementation requirements are huge and the resulting power will be less than what Ishar can do due to loss inherent in the process. Nothing bodes well for the rest of the Cosmere since there are 11 people (16 Shards - 4 that are shattered/aren't being held and 2 that are held by one person) that hold huge concentrations of power and slowly lose their ties to what made them people to begin with. I think the threat of Kelsier (and we don't even know his intentions) pales in comparison to the threat posed by the Shards and their Vessels. But that's just me.

Syl is the last living honorspren that was "birthed" by Tanavast. All other Tanavast honorspren were bonded during the Recreance and are now deadeyes. All current honorspren (besides Syl) were "birthed" by Stormfather or other honorspren who were "birthed" by Stormfather. I think that is the significance. I think that's a fourth wall thing. Moash is echoing the reader's thoughts here. Moash is literally talking about plot armor. However, since the Storm will be killed in Book 5 (speculation), there could also be foreshadowing for Kaladin being killed, as well.

Hemalurgy is not one better. Hemalurgy requires loss with every transfer, a net negative. Allomancy and Surges are net positive. Feruchemy is net neutral. If you transfer Connection power from Ishar to some other person, the power will be diminished on the second person and lost completely on Ishar. Yes, a lot of power can be stolen from others using Hemalurgy, but that power is diminished and you have to get the source of that power into a position to drive a specific type of spike into a specific place then someone to agree to have that powered spike driven into a specific place in them. And the target has to survive the spiking. I would think getting the same powers at full strength using Allomancy and Feruchemy and Surges would be better. And yet he's spending a ton of resources to meddle in other worlds to get knowledge he doesn't have. Then again, the current Ghostblood storylines occur prior to the Wax and Wayne storylines, so something he learns (during SA) on Roshar might be integral to what he's doing (during Mistborn Era 2) on Scadrial.

Owning up and remorse? Does this need to be a public flogging? Actual or symbolic? Can she be part of the team finding solutions to the problem, or should the forces of good lock her away from future developments for fear of her making worse weapons for the enemy? There are so many ways Sanderson can take the Navani contrition storyline and all of them will add so much to the story! I hope he strings her up naked by her ankles in the Skybreaker city in Shadesmar so spren can each get a lash in. I think there will be some reckoning in book 5 as she reports to everyone about the enemy's new weapons (and the good guy's new weapons). I would hope there are groups that hate Navani for it and we see some of the politics behind that. I would also hope she doesn't get completely ostracized for it. I would also hope the Sibling stands up for her, as it seems the Sibling is not only understanding of it, but also realizes that spren need the consequences that anti-Stormlight provide. In fact, a big part of book 5 might actually be the restoring of the Connection lost by capturing BAM yet spren still having to live with permanent consequences of their actions. That lack of consequences might actually be the major reason behind the Recreance in the first place, as Heralds and Radiants realize that restrictions were placed on human use of surges, but the lack of consequences for spren was resulting in bad peacetime decision making. There are a lot of stories to be had in this new development, the worst of which will be publicly flogging Navani for it. But to each their own.

If it had only been Kaladin, the Sibling would have been fully unmade, the tower would be held by Odium's forces, every Radiant in the tower would be as good as dead anyway. She definitely could have refused. She could have carried water and fomented some sort of resistance from there. Then Vyre comes in and there's no Raboniel or anti-voidlight tone to protect her. There's no bond with the Sibling to save the tower. So you're right. Brandon could have completely rewritten the story to have Navani succeed from some other place in some other way where Raboniel and Odium's forces don't get any access to anti-Stormlight. However, in this story, her going off to carry water would have resulted in Vyre killing her, Raboniel unmaking the Sibling, the enemy controlling the tower, and every Radiant within being as good as dead, anyway. There was no point in the process where it was actually a good idea for Navani to leave Raboniel's side. There was no point in the process where Navani could have stopped developing things and/or hide them from Raboniel. She tried that on several occasions in several different ways. You didn't answer my challenge here, you simply restated the point that Navani gave things to the enemy when she didn't have to. The successful defense of the tower depended on Navani getting anti-Voidlight to clear the Voidlight from the Sibling, and getting and keeping Raboniel on her side. BTW: Raboniel could have unmade the Sibling at any time after finding the underwater node. She held off because Navani of Navani's work. Part of the reason Navani kept working with Raboniel was to keep Raboniel on her side. Raboniel wouldn't have gotten the developments from Navani had she destroyed the Sibling and rendered the defense of the tower useless. There was no way out for Navani and the tower. None. Raboniel held all of the cards the whole time. Navani did the best she could and implemented just enough safeguards and got just enough trust out of the Sibling to make it work out in the end. There really was no other way this could have went down that was better for the good guys. The real question for the anti-Navani crowd here, I guess, is do the ends justify the means. Should Navani have let her tenuous hold on Raboniel go, stop her development of anything for fear the enemy gets it, because it was the right thing to do? Sure. That would have been the right thing to do. Everyone would have lost, but Navani would have done the right thing. So you win. Navani made the wrong choice.

Except Rlain is bonded with a corrupt spren and is in the Shattered Plains with the defected Heavenly Ones and the listeners that survived the Everstorm. I think Rlain would rather be there then back at the tower among only humans bonded to the Sibling. Does it matter what Rlain wants?

Navani would have never developed anti-light without Raboniel or someone with similar knowledge. Navani made the final leap, but the chasm was made shorter by Raboniel's knowledge of how Light and sound worked together. I realize that one of the human nations had also been using sound to coax light out of gems and Navani was aware of it, but the leap from that to anti-Light required Raboniel's help. I've gone through the entire sequence of Raboniel and Navani, and I don't see a point where Navani could have stepped away from the process yet still developed the anti-Light. In most cases, she would have been killed by Vyre, who was fended off by Raboniel and the anti-Voidlight tone (and, finally, the tower defenses after Navani bonded with the Sibling, which wouldn't have been possible if Navani didn't stay in the research area and successfully discover things that Raboniel wanted...oh and the Voidlight in the Sibling was cleansed thanks to the anti-voidlight tone...so, yeah). In others, the tower wouldn't have been freed (see previous)making her captivity permanent. Please point me to the myriad choices Navani had that would have still lead to an anti-Voidlight discovery, the enemy not getting that knowledge, the Sibling NOT being unmade, and the tower being freed. Whatever the negative consequences of the enemy getting anti-Stormlight, they would pale in comparison to the enemy unmaking the Sibling and holding the tower and the Oathgates. Unless you're Lirin and believe that being controlled by the enemy is better than the risk of being killed.

I think windspren are an original Roshar spren, pre-Shattering, pre-Honor and Cultivation. Honor altered windspren to create Honorspren to make his pet spren directly related to the Highstorm. So Honorspren manifest as windspren because they ARE windspren. They are stodgy because their entire current population was created by Stormfather after the previous population were killed in the Recreance. The current honorspren are more like Stormfather than the original honorspren, which were probably more diverse, or at least more like Syl.

Lack of trust in someone doesn't make that person always wrong.

Everything is a trope. Like the "I didn't know that was a trope" trope.

Of course that wasn't the only reason. The Recreance was a big reason. Something leading up to the Recreance lead the Sibling to originally leave humans behind. We don't know exactly what, but I'm sure it still holds. But none of that is particular to Navani. Adolin went to Lasting Integrity to argue that humans today shouldn't be judged for things done thousands of years ago. The same argument can apply here. The Sibling "chose" Rlain because he isn't a human and is bondable. There was no other real consideration there. There was only prejudice. The Sibling's only beef with Navani besides her being human was with her capturing spren. And it's a continuing beef and a challenge they'll have to get over. I think I agree with you primary point with Navani and the Sibling bond. It's definitely problematic. But I disagree that the Sibling feels that they want to drop the bond now. The interactions we got to see at the end of the book show two beings that respect each other working out their differences.

Not all Shards have the same abilities to see the future. Their Intent seems to have an effect on their future sight. Cultivation has to see into the future to prepare things for growth. Odium has to see into the future to properly establish his Hate. Preservation has to see future threats to be able to Preserve. Entropy (a better name for Ruin) is a current thing that doesn't care about the future (aside from it being simpler than the present). Honor is about keeping oaths and oaths are made in the past. Etc. In any case, future sight wasn't required for Preservation to play Ruin like a fiddle. Although I don't remember the fight between those two being that one sided. I might be misremembering, but Leras died first and Ati would have won if Marsh hadn't broken away long enough to take Vin's earring out.

The Sibling's primary reason for finding Navani not worthy was her practice of forcing spren into fabrials.

Navani isn't worth because she captures spren for fabrials. They went over this argument in the books and the Sibling has relented. As of the end of the book, there doesn't seem to be a huge backlash or regret from the Sibling. Navani will probably be unable to create Fabrials going forward, but that's probably a good thing.

Spren seek to bond Physical beings. Classical bonds involve a gemheart and lower level spren and result in large Physical changes and minor Cognitive ones (Warform makes one a bit more aggressive, Larkin gain a measure of intelligence when bonded, etc). Higher level spren seek bonds, too. Since they're much more complicated Cognitive beings, the bonds result in a much more complicated set of changes. With no gemheart, the Physical changes are mostly in the spren itself, allowing it more complicated Physical forms. Since high level spren are direct creations of Honor, Cultivation and Odium, they impart the ability to hold and use the Light that powers them (typically Stormlight because it's the most ubiquitous free Investiture on Roshar). They also impart access to the raw surges that the spren is a manifestation of. This access to the surges had to be controlled, so Ishar and Tanavast placed a series of barriers and restrictions on it. These are the Nahel Bonds Oaths and Ideals. But the Bonds themselves are natural and probably occurred prior to the creation of the Orders and Oaths. And the Bonds work both ways. As Kaladin gets mired in depression, so does Syl. As Dalinar's bond has progressed, the Stormfather has become less and less anti-social (I also have a pet theory that Stormfather prefers Singers to humans due to him being theirs long before he was made a spren of Honor, which was supported by a few scenes with Venli and Eshonai in ROW) As they progress through the Ideals, the spren gain more Physical abilities, more access to themselves and their abilities while in the Physical Realm, and become more like their bondmates. So a spren and a human in close proximity for a period of time will begin a bond by their very natures. Adolin has bonded Maya as a sword for a long time, and he reinforced this bond by actually interacting with his sword as though it was more than a sword. Maya's nature as a spren that wants to bond with a sapient Physical being resulted in as much of a bond as could be formed. It's obvious to me that deadeyes aren't dead spren. They are the closest to dead that spren had believed possible (anti-Stormlight is coming). Syl's speech about spren dying ("You’re the strange ones. Break a rock, and it’s still there. Break a spren, and she’s still there. Sort of. Break a person, and something leaves. Something changes. What’s left is just meat. You’re weird.") still holds. Nothing left the deadeyes. There was no soul that went into the Beyond leaving a husk behind. There is simply a loss of Cognitive ability similar to parshmen. We are getting closer to knowing that a Connection was broken when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. This Connection exists naturally but is replaced by the Nahel Bond. When the Bond is broken, this Connection isn't replaced. It was replaced prior to the capturing of BAM. So Maya is missing a Connection that was in place before the Recreance. This Connection is being replaced by the new bond with Adolin. The bond is being driven by the Physical participant rather than the spren, so it will progress slowly. But it's progressing. Also, Maya won't get huge bursts of light or amazing magical abilities because Adolin doesn't have access to those. But Adolin does have a Cognitive presence and a Connection to share. The big question is whether or not it's possible for Maya to share back. Will Adolin start getting some limited Stormlight usage when the bond progresses enough? Or will the progress be ruined by renewed Connection when Shallan frees BAM?

Nale killed more Radiants than we'll ever know. Raboniel manipulated Navani into creating a way to kill Radiant spren Rayse pushed Dalinar to slaughter an entire city, among other slaughters. Ulim used Venli to bring Odium's storm and troops back from Braize. Moash has killed 3 or 4 people, at least one of which was just an old guy he killed with a knife that the Fused gave him. And in his spare time he does menial labor and obsesses about Kaladin. Then a big tower spren turned a light on so he flew as fast as he could into the side of a hill and went blind. Yeah. Cool villain bro

Lift doesn't oppose change, she just doesn't want herself to change. The Shard's Intent doesn't have to apply to the Vessel. Preservation didn't require Leras to preserve himself. Odium didn't require Rayse to hate himself. Cultivation wouldn't require Lift to change herself.

Can you clarify why you made these two posts so I can feel more confident that I won't say something wrong in continuing this conversation?

Why Hoid? I like the possibility he worked with Cultivation to tighten Odium's prison and destabilize the Vessel-Shard relationship, culminating with Mr. T taking Rayse out. They probably saw that Odium would eventually splinter Honor, anyway, so made preparations that hastened the process but allowed for the Oathpact to last longer, giving time for a counter strike. His preparations included finding and grooming someone to bond to his remaining power (Dalinar -> Cultivation "curse", visions, Bondsmith, etc.), so there wasn't thought of a specific new Vessel, just a plan to get more time. This isn't even a theory, just a hunch based on his preparations prior to being killed.

Sadeas was Dalinar's closest friend prior to the stuff in Way of Kings. He held hope that, once the Shattered Plains work was over, they would be friends again. Dalinar, like any father, hopes his children will be better than he is. This will cause him to key on the weaknesses in himself that he sees in his kids. He harps on Adolin because killing Sadeas shows the possibility of Adolin moving down the path Dalinar followed. Why would he want that path for his son? He doesn't know how to keep Adolin off that path, so he does the best he can. This grates on Adolin because he knows (as does the reader) that killing Sadeas was a one time thing with extremely special circumstances and, especially with no Thrill to coax it, there's no chance that Adolin will go down the same path as Dalinar. But this is a normal father son dynamic. It shouldn't completely play out. This is one of those things that will linger for the life of the two of them. That's how this stuff works. Narratively, I'm not sure why Brandon is continuing with it. It's annoying for the people involved in real life, and annoying for the people reading it on the page. But it is real and adds humanity to both characters. A simple father-son argument in the middle of an apocalypse. Then again, I see everything Adolin does as grounding for the other characters. Everyone else has severe mental challenges and extreme powers. Adolin is a consistent touchstone to what is actually normal on Roshar. These perfectly normal interactions with his father are part of that.

Nightblood is made of steel with heavy Investiture. Honorblades are probably made of "tanavastium" (Honor's god metal) and aren't nearly as heavily invested as Nightblood. Nightblood is so Invested, that it has its own thoughts, can mentally effect those around it, and can literally suck all Investiture into itself from things it touches. Honorblades are Invested enough to provide a Connection to Honor to allow the wielder to use Stormlight and perform surges. The abilities aren't in the blade, they're in the Connection that wielding the blade creates. Investiture aside, Honorblades are probably stronger than Nightblood: godmetal vs steel. However, the Investiture levels are so vastly different that Nightblood's material is reinforced to be much stronger than Honorblade's. Hence the chip.

Lift asked to not change. That's antithesis to Cultivation, so to offset the request, she made Lift hers. Lift can't take in Stormlight. She has to eat and make use of the Lifelight produced. I see the death of Tanavast as a sacrifice Tanavast made. I see Cultivation setting herself up for her own sacrifice and setting Lift up as the new Vessel; a Vessel that resists change herself, yet uses her powers to propagate change in others.

I did notice that. Bravery also started every sentence or line it was in. It's traditional to capitalize the first word in a sentence or line. It don't think it means anything else.

It's setup pretty well for the Stormfather to become a deadeye and to be "fixed" when all of the other deadeyes are "fixed". Shallan will be seeking BAM's gem. Dalinar will probably lose the contest, requiring a breaking of Oaths, causing Stormfather to deadeye. Someone will free BAM and the Connection will be restored to all deadeyes, waking them in the same way parshmen were awakened. This is a little too predictable and results in little change. The permanent death of the Highstorm alongside a victory by the good guys is actually a great way to end the front 5 and take a long in-world break. We can see the medium term results of Roshar with no Highstorm when we get back for book 6.

The only 5th Ideal we know it the Skybreakers. "I am the law" This final Ideal completes a linear ladder for the Radiants that focus on law. I don't think the 5th Ideal will be some ideal of leadership. It's been about protection so far and there's no reason, aside from a mention in a Way of Kings graphic that leadership is a secondary focus for Windrunners. I think the 5th Ideal will complete the ladder that Kaladin is already climbing. "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination" - This is the standard first ideal for all orders "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." - This ideal is a jumping off point, defining the order in general and making sure the Radiant is prepared to handle the powers in the right way. There are probably few permutations to this ideal; every Windrunner says pretty much the same thing here. "I will protect even those I hate so long as it is right." - This ideal we've seen at least 3 versions of. Teft made an Oath to protect himself, whom he hated. The Lopen took an Oath to protect others from himself, basically. This Third Ideal deals with a problem personal to the Windrunner that directly keeps them from protecting specific individuals. "I accept that there will be those I cannot protect." - This is a limiter. A safety valve that relieves the pressure on the Windrunner created by the 2nd and 3rd Oaths. This will probably be vastly different for everyone but will probably amount to fixing a flaw with how the Windrunner deals with failure or with being overwhelmed by the Order's requirements. Personally, I think The Lopen's 4th Ideal will be his most difficult, since after the 3rd, he's pretty much perfect! Later: "I guess Lopen is not perfect." THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED. "Storm me! STOP DOING THAT!" So what is Kaladin (and The Lopen) missing at this point? What Ideal can be held that will make them the perfect protectors? A willingness to sacrifice - This makes sense, but it places an Ideal in place that encourages lessening the number of protectors going forward. As a perfect protector, whatever you're sacrificing yourself must be huge to justify removing your protection from time going forward. Also, Kaladin has lived this Ideal the entire time, almost lamenting that he hasn't been able to sacrifice himself. "Put on your mask first before you put masks on others" - In order to optimally protect, you must be optimal, physically and mentally. This is my vote for the most likely 5th Ideal. It works both in world, and in narrative as a vehicle for Kaladin's improvement, and will result in the best protectors that spren and surges can provide. Borrowing from the next post: "I will seek to protect only those who can be protected." - While I think this is a pretty simple extension of the 4th Ideal, it is different enough that it could warrant its own Oath. Since the Oath system is a system meant to limit who can use what levels of powers, granting the greatest powers that Honorspren can offer should require selectivity as to who they're used on or for. Proactive protection #1: "The best defense is a solid offence" - This is probably a little to militant to create better protectors, but is more in line with what the Skybreakers become with the 5th Ideal. "I am the Law" puts the Radiant above the very precepts spent defending in the first 4 Ideals. There may be a similar swing with the Windrunners. This may also be a result of the death of Tanavast, the loss of Connection via the capturing of BAM, and the degeneration of the Heralds reflected in the Nahel Bond Oaths. Proactive protection #2: "I will establish protection before the need arises" - This seems less like an Ideal and more like implementing good strategy. Probably not.