Mistchemist16

Since the topic of Reverse Compounding has come up in a few recent threads, I wanted to do some speculation. See what we know and what we can assume. Here are my motes First, a quick summary via the relevant WoB Through some method, it is possible to do this in reverse. Use Feruchemy to enhance Allomancy Here are a few possibilites 1. Some metal combinations enable reverse Compounding simply by having similar powers. Tin is compatible with other sensory Allomancy and F-Pewter stores the strength from A-Pewter. In the latter example, a Pewter Compunder could store the strength from A-Pewter instead of muscles, then Compound to gain strength without muscles. In addition, a Feruchemist can tap way more from their metalminds than an Allomancer. For example, a Twinborn with A-Bronze and F-Tin could store bronze sense for a day. They could then compress it to gain Duralumin level bronze, which wouldn’t be possible even via flaring. 2. Depending on how F-Nicrosil works, it may provide a boost to abilities stored in nicrosilminds. In this regard, it would be similar to A-Duralumin. Both are useless on their own but boost other powers. Though it is worth noting that abilites are more like coppermind memories rather than speed from steel. Make of that what you will. 3. The reason Compounding only provides the Feruchemical ability is because a metalmind naturally filters the Investiture to do that instead of Allomancy. If you could get the power in the metalmind to think it’s Allomancy, you should theoretically get that extra Investiture on top of what you get from burning normally. This may be as simple as having proper Intent. After all, Compounders get the Allomantic effects by default if they haven’t practiced. This method simply extends that Intention towards changing the contents of the metalmind. But if it is more difficult, it would likely require some unknown method of Spirtual Realm hacking. Naturally, this method requires one to have the Allomantic and Feruchemical powers of the metal one wishes to reverse Compound. 4. This last one is somewhat unique, so bear with me on the steps. Suppose you were a Compounder with this method. First, you need a regular piece of metal and ingest it. Once you have the reserve, focus on it and act as if you were tapping from a metalmind. The metal will start disintegrating as if it had been burned normally and provide the Allomantic effect. However, your Intent is tapping, so the Allomantic power acts like a Feruchemical attribute. You can then store this altered power into a new metal of the same type, just like regular Compounders do. The result is a metalmind that stores an Allomantic power. For example, you could make a zinc mind that stores Rioting. You can tap it as a normal Feruchemist does, which includes compressing it for more power than flaring or even Duralumin. Alternatively, you could Compound it. Either way, you’d have access to that on top of your normal Compounding. Which means every Compounder would effectively have Duralumin or worse on demand. It would also explain why the Lord Ruler’s Allomancy is so insane: he could’ve easily cracked this trick. It’d also apply to the Bands of Mourning. If method 3 or 4 is true, that also helps solve the mystery of why some Inquistors had F-Atium spikes. Ruin would’ve intended the Inquistors to not only function as immortal Cosmere agents, but agents who could Compound Atium sight. They hadn’t yet learned this technique in HoA, but would’ve had time to practice had Ruin won. But why was Marsh not given that spike? It could be because he had too many other spikes, but this is unlikely. Ruin probably would’ve switched one out if he needed. Instead, I believe that it was about loyalty. One of the perks of empowered Atium is seeing the Spiritual Realm. I suspect that Ruin didn’t want Marsh to achieve such power, leaving it to more loyal and bloodthirsty Inquisitors. I would like to give credit to @alder24 for inspiring my thought proccess. Their words on my F-Atium threads inspired both this post and theory #4 (my favorite of the bunch). If you want to give me a reputation, I would reccomend giving them one too. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Good night. Edit: Forgot to put the WoB about storing strength from A-Pewter in F-Pewter. Here it is

I’m not fully convinced. Pewter and gold might help you have some higher functioning. But it does seem like most diseases that come with aging can’t be healed. The WoB says “age related illnesses”, but not “some illnesses” like it does for genetic diseases. That makes me think you can’t really get out of most aging symptoms. Cadmium would probably do way more to extend your life. <snip> Shagomir As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age? This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind. ...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old? Brandon Sanderson Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016) I believe that anyone could’ve used Marsh’s spike because that spike itself was made with Era 1 rules. If Spook is using Atium Compounding, then we should assume two conditions are true. 1. Spook acquired Atium, most likely from Marsh 2. Spook has an F-Atium spike manufactured in Era 1, most likely stolen from a Inquistor like Marsh did. This isn’t impossible, The WoB specifically said Inquistors. If Marsh’s spike were unique, Brandon could’ve said “an Inquistor”. But it’s hard to tell how many had F-Atium, since we don’t know why they’re were used. zas678 Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical atium spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power? Brandon Sanderson Dead Inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet. /r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012) If these conditions aren’t fulfilled, then the best explanation for Spook’s longevity is pewter and cadmium. Which implies he’s dead. However, Spook could be alive through other means, such as becoming a Cognitive shadow. Regardless, I’m curious to know how long cadmium could extend your life. It does burn way slower than bendalloy and Spook could get even more mileage with duralumin.

If they were simply experimenting, Ruin could’ve let them know what their powers did after the fact. Or the Inquistors didn’t realize that particular limit and only Marsh could actually use F-Atium because he knew what it did. In this scenario, the Inquistors know they are stealing F-Atium. They don’t know what that power actually does, but they intend to steal it specifically. I don’t know why you’re so confident they need to know what the power actually does. Sure, it might be more useful per intention. But it’s not like the Inquistors are thinking “I want to steal a metal that gives Feruchemical youth” and then get something random. They know which power they are stealing, even if they don’t know what it does. However, you do have a good point about bind points. Ruin would have to approve of that spiking, even if the Inquistors somehow knew the right bind points. But making F-Atium spikes uses up both Atium AND a Keeper. If Ruin thought F-Atium was genuinely useless, it’s a strange choice at best. But that leaves a conundrum. We know for a fact that Inquistors got F-Atium at some point but we don’t have a good reason why. TLR wouldn’t place them for fear of Compounding. After that, Ruin is the one deciding what to give Inquisitors. But if Ruin allowed the spike, what did he hope to gain? He doesn’t need Inquistors to have youth disguises. He could’ve kept some as long lasting tools in the Cosmere, but then it’s strange he didn’t arm Marsh. I know that you’ve suggested Reverse Compounding, but I’m not sure I see how that model works Let me see if I can predict your model. If you wanted to reverse Compound Atium, you’d charge it with Investuture in the form of youth. Once you had the Atium mind, you would need to hack it so that the Atium mind is coded to give future sight and not youth. That would give you the Investiture of youth to fuel the atium If so, you have a few issues. Some Inquisitors would have to make themselves crazy old: no Compounding allowed. That youth would have to do enough work to extend Atium in any meaningful way. And you’d need a hack to make the Feruchemical Investuture stop being youth. But remember, the Inquistors didn’t even know how to Compound regularly? How would they figure out reverse Compounding in any meaningful time? And how would that slightly longer Atium be any more useful than, I don’t know, Compounded steel? If Ruin could make reverse Compounding possible for some reason, why not regular Compounding? It’s not technically impossible but it is really weird. My alternative theory is this. In the time before Ruin broke free, the Inquistors were freely experimenting with Keepers. They had some idea of the Feruchemical metals and one may have assumed Atium would be good. Ruin didn’t want to play his hand for some reason. Maybe to be more subtle, maybe because he didn’t consider the Keeper a major loss, maybe because the Inquistors somehow figured out the bindpoint themselves. Regardless, Ruin allowed it. It’s not great, but there aren’t many other options.

At least double, thanks to this power comparison. The one thing I’ve never quite been able to explain is coppercloud peircing. Vin can do it with only a few bronze lessons from Marsh and without really realizing it. She has a spike for double power on top of her unknown base power (which should be stronger than ordinary Mistborn). But WoB implies that Elend didn’t have that ability and would’ve had to learn it. <snip> Questioner So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce copperclouds? Brandon Sanderson Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force. Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015) I assume Vin taught Elend everything she knew, so I don’t know why he can’t peirce coppercloud like she can. My best guess is that Vin could do it easier than a random Mistborn with a spike for bronze. But maybe it’s easier than I give it credit for. Steel Inquistors always have coppercloud piercing and we don’t know enough about how much time they need to train. Or Elend did pierce coppercloud offscreen and the WoB was a bit misleading. I think you mean Shardlock Holms 1. I believe that the Inquistors were experimenting when they first captured the Terris. If I had to guess, one of the Inquistors thought “Hey, Allomantic Atium is awesome! It’ll be just as good in Feruchemy!” It also works whether the Inquistors partially believe that Atium is a “higher metal” or if they know it’s a God Metal. Either way, you’d assume it’s good. It also makes me wonder what Ruin was doing in this town. My theory is that he was just giving them bind points for anything they wanted. More spikes means more power and better control, plus Ruin may not have wanted to play his hand right away. But once he got free, he was actively designing Inquistors and deciding what each one would get. 2. Imagine if Vin HAD found an Atium spike and burned it, not realizing it was a spike. That would be interesting and probably disastrous. I also don’t think she checked the Inquistors in TFE. Vin only runs out of Atium in WoA and there are no Inquistors after until Ruin gets free. Plus, I believe Vin has sold some of the Atium to help Luthadel, which suggests they weren’t desperately short at that time. The crew may have just been distracted by everything else and hadn’t thought of it until their Atium ran out

The Vetitan Inquisitor is the one Vin and Elend fight in the first few chapters of HoA. Chapter 3 is when they actually fight. The reason I believe this Inquistor was Mistborn is because it didn’t have an Atium spike. We even see the count described when they open up its corpse. That Inquistor had five steel spikes, four bronze spikes, and a new pewter one. None of those provide Atium. So if the vast majority of Inquistors have Atium, this one must have it naturally. Interestingly enough, that also suggests its steelpush would be double power or even triple if the linchpin augments steel. So lerasium must be even greater than that for Elend to overpower him. It also helps that the Ministry has massive control over the economy. If anyone could match a noble house’s funds, it would be them. Of course, it’s still not preferable for most Mistborn. Obligatiors give up their lives, viably tattooing themselves and showing constant devotion, among other things. As such, most Mistborn would probably be happier with wealth AND freedom. Free to live the glamorous life of a noble and play politics. But between the wealth and TLR’s divinity, some would choose the Ministry. Where they would quickly be singled out as Inquistors the moment they prove loyal enough. Edit: Wanted to clarify two more things that I hadn’t included in the OG post 1. Regarding F-Atium, I believe that it’s the other way around. Because Inquistors would be required to have A-Atium, TLR didn’t provide those spikes. I did try to theorize how TLR used those spikes recently. However, my current posistion is that Inquistors gave themselves F-Atium during WoA, when they raided the Synod. I don’t see why either TLR or Ruin would provide those spikes 2. The only Inquistors Vin actually examined were those between WoA and HoA, when she desperately needed Atium. None were encountered during WoA itself and I don’t believe she checked the TFE Inquistors. This also makes sense because most of the Inquistors she fought after WoA were commanding koloss, which wouldn’t be possible for regular Misting Inquistors. Hence why they all seem to have a nine spike build.

I’m fine with the idea that some Misting Inquistors don’t have gold spikes. It’s a good power, but people will assume the worst about Inquistors and Mistborn Inquistors have their enhanced powers to back them up However, I don’t believe any Misting Inquistors have 9 spikes. Such Inquistors would have no Atium, which would be insanely risky and dangerous. Sure, they might work for a time if they are dealing with Mistings. But if they encounter a Mistborn, they die immediately to one sided Atium. If an Inquistor is caught without Atium, two major problems arise. First, that’s one more legendary Inquistor dead, blunting their reputation of immortality. Two, someone might eventually question why they had no atium. It may not be immediately, since Mistborn will kill the moment Atium burns. But if that Inquistors stops easily sweeping Misting teams or the Mistborn thinks, they may start asking unpleasant questions. It’s just such an unnecessary risk to take and finished the power of the Inquistors significantly. So I don’t buy that the Lord Ruler used any Inquistors without Atium. Which means Misting Inquistors must have 10 spikes minimum. I think the first part is fairly accurate. Harmony says as much in the Chapter 37 epigraph “Hemalurgic decay was less obvious in Inquisitors that had been created from Mistborn. Since they already had Allomantic powers, the addition of other abilities made them awesomely strong. In most cases, however, Inquisitors were created from Mistings. It appears that Seekers, like Marsh, were the favored recruits.” However, if we assume Mistborn Inquistors had nine spikes, then we know a few things. We know Kar was a Misting and the Vetitan Inquistor was Mistborn. I think Bendal may be Mistborn since he was stronger than Kelsier and I don’t remember him explicitly using F-Gold. But if anyone has the scene from TFE, I’m happy to reconsider. Otherwise, the Inquistors from the throne room probably weren’t Mistborn. Ditto for some of Ruin’s Inquistors. And there were even more offscreen or elsewhere in the Empire who were most likely Mistings. The numbers would only seem skewed if Mistborn Inquistors stayed close to Luthadel. As for recruiting Mistborn, user @robardin provided two possibilites for how Mistborn would be recruited in their thread about Marsh’s spikes. It’s likely that the Ministry did provide a handsome bonus for Mistborn as a way of grooming Inquistors, which would be especially tempting for poorer houses. Plus, some Mistborn may just be highly religious anyway and join the Ministry. Though @robardin did admit there probably weren’t many of these Mistborn. But it really comes down to how many Inquistors Vin got to kill and examine. Those would probably be her frame of reference for saying normal Inquistors have 9 spikes.

Honestly, I doubt it. It is highly likely that Rashek never allowed Inquistors to have the same spikes for Allomancy and Feruchemy. That would avoid all risk of Compounding. The only Feruchemy spike we can confirm in Rashek’s Inquistors is F-Gold. However, I don’t believe we have any cases of a Mistborn Inquistor using F-Gold. It would also explain why Vin thinks that normal Inquistors have 9 spikes. If we take the first Inquistor from HoA as a standard Inquistor (minus pewter spike), then that leaves an Inquistor with no Atium. Which would be weird for any Inquistor However, it would be plausible for 9 spike Inquistors to be Mistborn. They’d already have Atium, so no need for a spike. No F-Gold to prevent Compounding. And their double strength Allomancy (including pewter) makes up for no gold Ultimately, you do have to pick your posion. Do we have to assume that many of the Inquistors the crew encountered were Mistborn? Or did Rashek leave some Inquistors with no Atium and vulnerable to any Mistborn they came across? I believe the former makes more sense. The Ministry did pick Mistborn when possible and the Mistings would get Atium spikes. But if you think this isn’t the case, I’d love to hear your arguments.

I’ve been wondering a bit about what Feruchemical chromium is like. From what we know of Fortune, it seems to be something along the lines of reading the Spiritual Realm and using that for “luck”. Something subconscious for most people, but that functions kinda like advanced intuition. With that in mind, the effects of tapping chromium seem fairly intuitive. You’d have a gut feeling for what to do and could theoretically see the Spiritual Ream via Compounding or large stores. That may or may also translate into an instinctive combat sense. But what might the effects of storing chromium be? We know it’s not simply making unlikely events happen, per WoB. Weltall (paraphrased) That gave me the opportunity to ask one last question, about Feruchemical chromium and whether storing fortune would cause you to risk experiencing really improbable things, like the entropy curse in The Dresden Files. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) He said he wasn't going to answer questions about fortune, that the MAG shouldn't be taken as gospel on this point (I don't remember how it works there and didn't mention it, he brought it up on his own) and that he's planning something different than we might be thinking, for how that mechanic will function. Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016) it almost certainly has to do with lacking intuition and making stupid decisions. But for theory’s sake, I have a more fun idea. What if Fortune is less about seeing the Spiritual Realm and more about understanding it? So a person storing Fortune wouldn’t just be unable to have hunches about anything. Instead, they’d actively make hunches that turn out to be terrible. For example, let’s say you have 3 Spinners playing roulette. One is tapping Fortune, one is storing, and the third has no metalminds to change things. On the next spin, the wheel will land black. The one tapping Fortune correctly guesses black and wins. The one with no metalminds can’t make a read either way and takes a 50/50 shot. The one storing Fortune becomes convinced that it will be red and bets, but loses their money. They wouldn’t be forced to do so and indeed may try to avoid making that choice given time. However, they will feel the misinformation is right, consciously or not, and probably choose it under pressure. It’s all about that temptation to act. I don’t actually know how plausible this theory is, but I think it’d be a fun way to show the consequences of storing. Plus, it would probably be more visible than just not getting hunches. But that’s just my random guess. What do you guys think?

It’s also worth noting that Spook could’ve used cadmium and duralumin for life extension. Pewter probably wouldn’t help because it doesn’t do much for age diseases. But given that he actively ruled for a century (not just lived that long), Atium is the more likely answer. Edit: Also, Spook could be alive and doing things under Marsh’s radar. So not impossible that he’s still alive or even the serial killer in Era 3 (though I don’t believe he is)

I don’t think this is the case anymore. Given the soft reticent on Savantism, I don’t think we’ll see anything like bronze, where you wouldn’t even know you’d become a Savant. You’d see more noticeable things, like Spook’s crazy senses or even Miles’s immunity to pain. Don’t know what that’d mean for Spirtual metals though, since we don’t have much data. But the consequences would definitely be visible, if not immediately obvious Brandon Sanderson Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision. Argent Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around. Brandon Sanderson Evgeni, So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.) And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences. That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore. So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.) Feel free to share this. Argent Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)? Brandon Sanderson I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance." The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books. Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon. Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)

True. Immortality would be rather promising, but unavailable to Marsh in WoA. Plus, the spike giving F-Atium would be made of Atium, so easy to place. By the way, did the Inquistors know what F-Atium did? They didn’t know about Compounding and it’s unlikely they learned F-Atium helped make TLR immortal. Doesn’t matter if they did. They could’ve also just thought “A-Atium is great, so F-Atium will be too”. Which would be true as long as you could use A-Atium (which most Inquistors should be able to). HoA epigraph chapter 72. Sazed talks about how Ruin was giving duralumin to Inquisitors. From the context, the entire section is about Ruin. “Of course, this did give us a slight advantage, at the end. Ruin had a lot of trouble giving duralumin to his Inquisitors, since they'd need an Allomancer who could burn it to kill before they could use it. And, since none of the duralumin Mistings in the world knew about their power, they didn't burn it and reveal themselves to Ruin. That left most Inquisitors without the power of duralumin, save in a few important cases—such as Marsh—where they got it from a Mistborn. This was usually considered a waste, for if one killed a Mistborn with Hemalurgy, one could draw out only one of their sixteen powers and lost the rest. Ruin considered it much better to try to subvert them and gain access to all of their power.” Honestly, I don’t think that would necessarily have more impact than the passive bonus from being Invested by spikes. Unless Inquisitors had massive piles of gold metalminds left, they probably would get sick again quickly. I don’t think it would buy more than a few years at most. Assuming it’s even possible to heal age related diseases in any major way Shagomir As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age? This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind. ...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old? Brandon Sanderson Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016) Honestly, I’m fine with that. If your point is correct, then we know none of the F-Atium spikes came from Ruin. Which leaves either TLR or Inquistors spiking themselves as the answer. And part of why I started this theory was because it didn’t seem right that Ruin had used F-Atium

It is worth noting that duralumin was the only available spiritual metal that could be made into a useful spike: stealing Connection and Identity. H-Aluminum just removes powers: the other two weren’t discovered. But I don’t believe Inquistors actually used H-Duralumin. Or at least not regular Inquistors. Maybe they did have those spikes in the Hemalurgic labs or experimental models of Inquistor We also know some few Inquistors did have A-Duralumin, given using electrum spikes. Brandon Sanderson Chapter Seventy-Four Allomantic Secrets Some people have asked me why the Lord Ruler was so careful to keep secrets about Allomancy. What would it have mattered if he let out that there were atium Mistings? Some of the secrets offered a sizable tactical advantage. Keeping back duralumin and aluminum gave him and his Inquisitors (the only ones told about those metals, other than a few select obligators) tools that nobody knew about. Very few Inquisitors could burn duralumin (and most who did it gained the ability through the use of spikes reused from previous, dead Inquisitors—and those spikes were therefore much weaker.). However, those who did have the power could appear inordinately skilled in Allomancy, enhancing the Lord Ruler's divine reputation. Beyond that, knowledge is power. I believe that. And I think that if you're the Lord Ruler, you want to keep a few secrets about your magic system. Mistborn are very rare. Mistings among the nobility—particularly in the early centuries—were not rare. If they'd known about atium Mistings, it could have upset the balance by creating too many superwarriors. Plus, if there are unknown superwarriors to be had, then you want to keep them for yourself. The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 15, 2010) If all else fails, it may just be leftover knowledge from Rashek’s time in the Well. He knew all of the metals, even if he couldn’t use them

It depends on what the job is. If reverse Compounding is simply to extend the Atium shadows, no reason to prevent Marsh from having that. Ruin wasn’t really worried about Marsh putting up meaningful resistance. That being said, there is one other benefit to reverse Compounding Atium. Seeing the Spiritual Realm. Maybe Ruin didn’t trust Marsh enough to see that, even tightly bound, and gave the power to more malicious Inquistors. But I think it has to be something like that. If it’s about extending the combat use of Atium, it really makes no sense to give the spikes to lesser Inquistors and not Marsh.

We know that Marsh survived to Era 2 by Atium Compoumding. WoB also tells us that Marsh was not given his spike by Ruin, but instead stole it from dead Inquistors zas678 Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical atium spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power? Brandon Sanderson Dead Inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet. /r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012) As far as I can tell, there are two usages for F-Atium: as a disguise or to prolong youth, particularly with Compounding. Yet, neither seems to make sense for Ruin. He doesn’t really need disguises. And if he wanted an Inquistor to be immortal, why not his top pawn? Ruin was willing to give him duralumin despite wasting a Mistborn. It doesn’t add up Which got me thinking. What if those spikes were given by TLR instead? We have reason to believe that some Inquistors have extended lifespans. If Inquistors made themselves old during the rest periods, they could probably extend their lives a fair bit Chaos (paraphrased) How long is the lifespan of an Inquisitor? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It depends on the powers they're given. Some burn up quickly, and others are extended. In general though they do tend to have slightly longer lives. Since Marsh has the missing bag of atium he's going to be around for a while. Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010) Now, the slightly longer lives part could be explained by them being extra Invested from spikes. In fact, I think that would explain the “generally” part quite well. But the WoN also says others are extended, as if they got a bigger boost. If the Inquistors managed to store enough youth during their rest periods, as the gold spike ones do, they could probably go a bit longer with the extra youth. More importantly, it helps people believe the Inquistors are immortal, since they’ll never seem old even as the same ones serve. Now, the big problem with this is potential Compounding. We can safely assume most, if not all, Inquistors are either base Mistborn or have spikes for A-Atium. So TLR would be risking them learning to Compound on their own, which doesn’t track well. But having F-Atium doesn’t necessarily require the Inquistors to Compound. They could just become old while resting and then young out in the world. Ultimately, the question is this: why would TLR or Ruin give random Inquistors F-Atium spikes? It has to be one of the two and I really can’t understand why Ruin didn’t give one to Marsh when he had invested so much. But if any of you have a plausible explanation for either theory, I’d love to hear it. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

The metal room doesn’t prove the Worldbringers knew metal was safe. Rashek built that and he most likely gained that knowledge from the Well. But the reference to Cognitive aspects does suggest more Realmantic knowledge I also think we should ask another questions: how much of the Spiritual and Temporal metals did classical Scadrial have? We can assume they didn’t crack the making of aluminum or Rashek would’ve had tons of it + duralumin. But Kwaan still could’ve experimented with these metals or even the chromium/nicrosil pair. Maybe those would help figure out how metal works. Tyran Amiros How technologically advanced was the society before the Final Empire? You reference gunpowder, and certainly the current day seems to have technologies like canning and clocks, so how much did Rashek destroy? Brandon Sanderson They had steam technology, and were just about to hit the railroad era. Something near early 1800s in our world. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Well, Vin does say normal inquistors have 9 spikes in HoA. Personally, I figured that Mistborn inquistors would always have the nine spike build. They would never have spikes for A-Atium or A-Duralumin (those would be saved for Misting Inquistors). Also, it seems unlikely TLR would’ve risked giving them F-Gold, since they might figure out Compounding. In fact, Bendal could have this build, since he doesn’t explicitly use F-Gold like Kar. However, it’s more likely Mistborn Inquistors would have gold than duralumin or Atium. If the Kredik Shaw Inquistor isn’t a base Mistborn, we have to assume he had duralumin. But if anyone wants to reference that chapter more specifically, I’d appreciate it. Otherwise, I don’t believe we know enough about the unnamed Inquistors to judge if they were Mistings or not. I assume the ones Marsh killed in TFE and most of Ruin’s group (except for the Vetitan Inquistor) were Mistings Also, I just realized there’s one other possible spike we havent accounted for: F-Atium. I say this for two reasons 1. Marsh wasn’t given an F-Atium spike by Ruin. He took it from a dead Inquistor. But it’s strange Ruin would arm other Inquistors and not his top pawn. Which implies the spike Marsh stole may have been added by TLR instead. zas678 Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical atium spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power? Brandon Sanderson Dead Inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet. /r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012) 2. WoB says some Inquisitors did live longer. Having Inquistors live longer and appear immortal would definitely be tempting. Chaos (paraphrased) How long is the lifespan of an Inquisitor? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It depends on the powers they're given. Some burn up quickly, and others are extended. In general though they do tend to have slightly longer lives. Since Marsh has the missing bag of atium he's going to be around for a while. Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010) The tricky part is that F-Atium alone doesn’t do much, unless they store during the long rest periods. Also, I assume most, if not all Inquisitors, have A-Atium. So giving F-Atium increases the risk they crack Compounding. Its also entirely possible that Ruin gave out the F-Atium spikes. Maybe he was using some sort of weird disguise play. But if the purpose was unlocking Atium Compounding, I’m not sure why he didn’t give Marsh those spikes.

When you say double spikes, are you referring to Mistborn inquistors with single spikes or actual dual spikes? I don’t believe Inquistors have dual spikes. If we take the one from Vetitan as standard model, (minus pewter spike) all Inquistors have spikes for the 8 basic metals + a linchpin (which may or may not add more power). Some also get gold and Atium spikes, though I doubt any Mistborn Inquistors got the latter (better to arm another Inquisitor with Atium than add a few second boost to an existing one). Also, do we know if any Inqusitors from before Ruin’s release used duralumin on screen? The WoB does mention duralumin spikes, which should’ve theoretically be given to Mistings for the same reason as Atium (better to arm new Inquistors). Also, Mistborn Inquistors could definitely burn duralumin from their natural abilites.

I think it looks great! As you said, it does track with what we can infer. But the other interesting thing is that the lerasium probably would’ve gone farther without the Final Empire. Among the biggest things stopping Mistborn from being more common 1. Scadrial’s era 1 population was probably already off thanks to living in the North Pole. At least that was the impression I got, since one of the WoBs you mentioned had Scadrial as the least populated Shardworld 2. Nobles were designed to be less fertile than normal. So less Allomancer kids, especially in those early stages before the alterations were basically undone. 3. The skaa bloodlines weren’t allowed to have Allomancy, so more potential Mistborn branches brutally cut off. 4. Despite noble marriages keeping Allomancy locked among their numbers, Mistborn probably wouldn’t be hooking up that often. They would generally have to keep their powers secret. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible for marriage alliances to be formed on Allomancy, but they would probably only have one Mistborn at most But even then, Mistborn would still be pretty rare. TLR and the nine original Allomancers wouldn’t be enough people to keep the trait going forever, especially as it declines over time. On a side note, do we know if any of the original nine lerasium born were female? Harmony does refer to kings in HoA chapter 65, but that could just be the majority. Maybe Lutha was one of the nine. Who knows? “He could have, I suppose, kept Allomancy secret and used Feruchemists as his primary warriors and assassins. However, I think he was wise to choose as he did. Feruchemists, by the nature of their powers, have a tendency toward scholarship. With their incredible memories, they would have been very difficult to control over the centuries. Indeed, they were difficult to control, even when he suppressed them. Allomancy not only provided a spectacular new ability without that drawback, it offered a mystical power he could use to bribe kings to his side.”

Allomancy was always on a downwards curve, starting from Rashek’s Ascension. There aren’t even any known Mistborn in Era 2. But it does make me curious about how many Mistborn there were in the early final Empire, when Allomancy was stronger. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the only thing we really know is that Mistborn were used to hunt Kandra. I also think it’s fair to assume the highest amount of Mistborn at one time would’ve been somewhere in the first few hundred years. The sweet spot where the nine original lerasium Allomancers had the most Mistborn descendents but before Mistings began to appear more often. For those of you who know population dynamics, any estimates for how common Mistborn might have been in the early Final Empire? I know there’s a lot we can’t know for sure, but I’m curious to know the math.

For what it’s worth, I do genuinely think Preservation has a much better connection to Feruchemy than Allomancy. If a human is a system, Feruchemy is preserving. It is taking out part of the system and not having it tone to stockpile for later. Making yourself weaker is not Ruining yourself, because preserving something means you can’t use that thing while storing. Plus, Feruchemists have to be more careful when they use their powers, lest they need to recharge. They can’t just freely drink a vial like Allomancers On the other hand, Allomancy adds power, to the system. This is more like Ruin and Preservation creating together. Also, Allomancers are not punished for failing to preserve their powers except for Atium, which is outside the normal system. They don’t need to “preserve” to access their powers in the same way Feruchemists do. Allomancers can just buy tons of vials: Feruchemists need to think more. Unfortunately, canon is canon. And the explanation does work as a surface level. But in retrospect, Feruchemy should be of Preservation. It just fits better.

I’ve actually toyed with a similar Twinborn concept that copied powers. My version used F-Auminum, just in case there’s any lingering Identity problems. But honestly, I’d probably just use Resonance for a copycat. I believe that the Sapper with no Resonance wouldn’t work. The reserve doesn’t become part of you, so it can’t be stored in a nicrosil mind. I don’t know enough about F-Nicrosil to speak on that difference yet. But even if it doesn’t, I’d bet Resonance fixes that. And if it doesn’t, that’s just a waste. So unless Brandon completely shoots it down, I’d say you’re fully justified in acting as if the Sapper does work, one way or another. On a side note, how do you think a Sapper’s copying would work? I think they’d have to touch the target, who would be burning metals or tapping metalminds. You can then transfer that into your own metalmind and tap it to gain the metal reserve or tee any effect. You wouldn’t even need new metal vials since you stole the reserve’s power.

It’s also worth noting that Elend could’ve flared zinc in this scene. Unfortunately, I don’t believe we can just use the triple mechanic like we can with pewter. However, we do know that if Elend is skilled with any metal, it would be the emotional metals. So perhaps flaring + skill makes up the difference. So he definitely Rioted the rank around him. But I don’t think we can judge how much of the army was affected. There’s no way to tell which people were Rioted and which were inspired by seeing the display. Oh absolutely. TLR’s Soothing aura is clearly constant. But I do agree that Elend and TLR aren’t nearly as far apart as people think. It’s entirely possible that he started with the same strength as Elend and boosted it higher through other factors. Let’s start by saying TLR’s minimum strength should be equal to Elend. From there, we can add these boosts 1. TLR is a savant in zinc and brass, which is probably an even bigger boost than regular Savantism theFinisher4Ever Was the Lord Ruler using Feruchemy + Allomancy to Soothe all of the people around him? Or was he, as I like to think, flaring for so long that he became a Soother Savant? Brandon Sanderson He lived long enough and used his metals enough (particularly Soothing) to become nearly a savant in every area, if not a full savant. /r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013) 2. TLR had a thousand years to practice his powers. Even if Elend is skilled, he can’t have practiced for more than 2 years, which would be nothing for TLR. 3. TLR was flaring brass in most cases. That also fits with him being a savant 4. TLR is a Sliver of Preservation. That could provide a boost to Allomancy, but we don’t enough about Slivers to say for sure Whatever difference is left can be made up with the Well superboost. But I honestly think he could’ve started with the same base power as Elend, even though he used the Well. TL;DR: Elend’s duralumin Soothing may be equal to TLR’s brass, flared or otherwise.

First off, thanks for the numbers! The chapter 66 epigraph explains it. Koloss can be controlled without duralumin as long as they are in a frenzy. When in said frenzy, koloss lose whatever logic they had and can be controlled. Interestingly, the reverse applies when you are already under control. Strong emotions allow the subject autonomy, instead of making them vulnerable “Koloss also had little chance of breaking free. Four spikes, and their diminished mental capacity, left them fairly easy to dominate. Only in the throes of a blood frenzy did they have any form of autonomy. Four spikes also made them easier for Allomancers to control. In our time, it required a duralumin Push to take control of a kandra. Koloss, however, could be taken by a determined regular Push, particularly when they were frenzied.” Quick confirmation: Did Elend get all of his thousands of koloss at Fardrex? Or did he have others from past encounters with Inqusitors? I believe the former The koloss are also the only time we see Elend use duralumin with brass/zinc. The problem is, we don’t know how koloss control compared to humans. But using the two above, Elend can probably affect thousands of regular humans on regular burn: no flaring needed. It doesn’t seem like the troops in Chapter 3 would be less than 1000. And if the ballroom is even less, that would explain how casually Elend can affect them The other option is that mass Soothing simply affects everyone within a given radius and that area is bigger for Elend. I remember seeing another thread that used it to explain the Lord Ruler soothing 100000 people, though I don’t know where it is now. But I have no proof for those mechanics and we can’t draw conclusions from TLR anyway I have no idea how many humans Elend could get with duralumin. Maybe as many as TLR did. That being said, I know TLR wasn’t using duralumin. His mass Soothing never just stops like it would with duralumin. Of course, TLR has lerasium and Savantism, plus we don’t know if he’s flaring. But even then, Im not sure Elend could match that even with duralumin

Kandra brains don’t function quite like human brains. They can be moved around. So what if two kandras working together could put both of their brains in the same kandra? It wouldn’t be instant: very much a surgical procedure. But then their mental speed is even better than before. You could even make a type of repository kandra that just stores the brains of their people in a bigger True Body zas678 TenSoon wonders, and I wonder too- How can kandra think and be sentient without brains? Doesn't the body need a physical coordinator to relay between the Physical and Cognitive realm? Or do the spikes do a good enough job with that? Brandon Sanderson I imagine kandra having a non-centralized nervous system, with brain power spread through their bodies. Well, non-centralized is probably the wrong way to say it. They have lobes of thought and memory attached to muscles here and there, and don't have a single 'brain.' They certainly have brain-like material, though. /r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012) A kandra with a metal body could also pair well with a Cointshot/Mistborn. Pull back the flesh on parts of the metal, like OreSeur did with metal vials, and the Allomancer should be able to kick off the kandra. Maybe some sort of hidden acid spray mechanism to fight other kandra. Put sleep or poison gas sealed in flesh pockets inside the arms. Then seal your nostrils and mouth, ideally with another oxygen source inside the body A Kandra Archivist could have a True Body made mostly out of copper and store more memories than even the Keepers Those are my ideas. I think there are plenty of others, including getting animal abilites, but it also depends on how deep kandra shapeshifting goes.

Let me see if I understand correctly. Normally, the spiritweb provides Investiture to people’s natural abilites, like a river flowing into a lake. You originally thought that Feruchemy was temporarily making another branch into somewhere you could store: the metalminds. But you’re saying instead it’s a three step process. If the attributes are water, then the Spiritual Realm is a river and you are the lake it empties into. Feruchemy then takes from the lake, not the river I think it does make sense since you can’t distinguish most Feruchemical attributes. Maybe all attrubutes are technically “distinct” like a copper mind and it’s just imperceptible in most cases. My only question then is this. How does Hemalurgy fit in? If I remeber correctly, something like the Blessing of Potency supplies energy from the Spiritual Realm, kinda like a perfect gem for Stormlight. But Hemalurgic can’t be redirecting from the victim themself: that person is dead. Instead, Hemalurgy tricks the Spiritual Realm into fueling the recipient twice. Once for the donor and once for their real self. Maybe even as a sort of hack since distance doesn’t exist in the Spiritual Realm. It thinks it’s feeding two people instead of one Alteroden With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all? Brandon Sanderson In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not. Alteroden Would it actually give off light? Brandon Sanderson [...] Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking... Alteroden No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different. Brandon Sanderson Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)