TheoreticalMagic

Hello all! Not to be like hey buckle up for another theoretical jaunt down Here's One Random User's Guesses About the Dawnshards lane....but I mean. Yeah. Buckle up for another theoretical jaunt down "Here's One Random User's Guesses About the Dawnshards" Lane. So I wonder if perhaps the four Dawnshards are simply the magical equivalents of the Unified Field Theory, aka the four fundamental forces of physics. After all, the four fundamental forces or interactions are often described as being the forces in physics that are impossible to reduce any further, to interactions any more incremental than these 'fundamental' ones themselves. That sounds to me an awful lot like the real world equivalent of the four Primal Commands that created the fundamental framework of the cosmere. Commands so fundamental they can't be reduced any further, whereas the sixteen Shards that 'descend' from these parent Dawnshards CAN be described as a more complex interaction deriving from one of these base four....that they build upon, and thus in turn can point back to as being a foundational Command at the root of their own nature. And after all, gravity is essentially the Surge of Adhesion, which has frequently been singled out as not being a proper Surge like the other nine, as well as aligning well with the Dawnshard we know of that 'binds any creature Voidish or mortal.' As such, perhaps Adhesion is not so much a Surge as it is a Shard-made facsimile of one of the fundamental forces of creation, the Dawnshard that is essentially Gravity or some version of Bind Them. Basically a watered down version of one quarter of the Creation Drive, as it was created by a Shard or Shards rather than being created by or concurrent with Ado/Adonalsium (whatever the precise relationship between Ado and the Dawnshards might be). And keep in mind that Gravity refers to a state of mind or being as much as it does a physical force, so rather than Adhesion, Binding, or Unity....a Dawnshard of Gravity could theoretically also have a name along the lines of Weight, or be akin to how Gravitas is synonymous with especially serious. Essentially, the Dawnshard of Gravity could be something that imbues creation with the physical, cognitive and spiritual equivalent of mass....of Purpose.....even of....Intent. As to the one Dawnshard we DO know: Change.... I'd argue that theoretically, this could be the corollary to Electromagnetism. Especially given all the theorizing that the Change Dawnshard is specifically about creating POSITIVE change. Much like electromagnetism's role in physics stems largely from the positive charging of particles, and how this instigates, well...change. The magical equivalent of imbuing a positive charge into creation could well be summed up as Change (Positive) - as charging particles, or the various interactions between positively and negatively charged particles, is what leads to most change in the universe. The charged state of particles is directly linked to the changing states of matter, the conversion and breakdown of elements, etc. When you charge a particle, when you imbue it with a spark of creation, so to speak....something happens as a direct result, always, without fail. You induce change. So if two of the Dawnshards are Gravity and Electromagnetism, just interpreted via a fantasy lens..... They might be called Weigh and Change. Weigh as in something you might Command.....as in weigh upon. As in have mass, have weight, have MEANING. Another way of saying 'have meaning' is to command something to MATTER. Although the commands act as verbs, they might be more easily pictured when combined with a modifier, just as a hypothetical (and with the understanding that this doesn't quite match the naming convention implied for the Dawnshards and its just a rephrasing/reframing of the Command for ease of defining/picturing). So Weigh/Gravity/Bind could be the magical command largely responsible for or resulting in matter in the cosmere. Honor of course would be the most obvious candidate for one of the four Shards attached to or stemming from this particular Dawnshard....which tracks with the idea that he created the Surge of Adhesion to mimic the power that essentially is his own parent power. And as such, bindings and oaths are the basic bedrock foundation for life on Roshar. They're as fundamental to the framework of post-humanity Roshar as crem. If there's a Dawnshard that Commands 'Imbue weight/mass/purpose/MATTER' into the basic framework of existence......then Honor would fit as one of the four Shards under that subheading. Because Honor only has as much meaning as how much your personal honor matters, how much you adhere to whatever oaths you swear by. If you don't imbue your actions, your deeds, everything you create by Intent....with actual weight, with actual gravity, with Honor that you hold yourself to, that you see as having meaning and in turn use to give your actions and words and oaths meaning..... Then none of that really matters. Honor only matters in as much as the individual cognitive being who conducts themselves with Honor, by Intent....MAKES it matter. Now switch gears over to Change......if the Dawnshard of Change is the magical equivalent of electromagnetism in a fantasy universe.....then it could perhaps more easily be pictured by reframing that Command as 'Induce change.' A Shard I imagine falls under the Change subheading, one of the four 'child' Shards of that parent Dawnshard....would be Endowment. Because Endowment is something you give....but with purpose, with Intent. You give it specifically with the aim of something being done WITH that endowment, something positive. A positive change resulting from a gift given. The fantasy equivalent of bequeathing a positive charge to a particle....in order to....Induce Change. To result in something being done with that endowment, that results in a change (a positive one) for the one the endowment was given to. Similarly, Cultivation would fit in this category IMO....because it results in a positive change as a consequence of something being added, some structure being implemented, some being - with Intent - providing nourishment or nurturing something in order to see it evolve, grow, become better, more civilized, etc. A child Shard of the parent Dawnshard that is Change might "Induce Change" by adding more sustenance or nourishment or making it more easily attainable, to see what positive changes result. And if the Command 'Imbue/Have Weight' is the Dawnshard that shapes matter in the cosmere, the Command 'Induce/Shape Change' might similarly be described as the Dawnshard that results in energy. Inducing positive charges that shape energetic changes. Anyway, in real world physics, gravitational and electromagnetic interactions are denoted as being those that produce significant long-term or long-range forces whose effects can be seen on every day life. Weigh and Change, Matter and Energy, the Primal Commands that shape the long-term or long-range events that ARE the story of the cosmere, the fundamental building blocks that move creation into new states of existence. Which leaves two Dawnshards, and two fundamental forces/interactions: The strong and weak nuclear forces. These two are pretty complicated forces in the sense that they're very easily misconstrued and thus often misunderstood or misrepresented. For starters, the naming of them positions them as seeming like natural opposites, but that's not really the case. There is an ANGLE from which they're opposites, but of the four fundamental forces, when people talk of one of the four forces being somewhat different in nature from the other three....its actually the weak nuclear force they're talking about. The strong nuclear force more naturally groups with gravitation and electromagnetism....weak nuclear force is the outlier, even if in many ways it DOES present itself as a logical paired interaction for the strong nuclear force. (Note: This also dovetails with how we know from a WoB that one of the Dawnshards is different from the other three in some key ways). Now the interesting thing about the strong nuclear force is that....although its often construed as being a binding force and thus could be confused or treated as interchangeable with the parent force from which Adhesion is derived....this is not wholly accurate.....at least not if that binding force is interpreted as an ACTIVE interaction. Because while gravitation and electromagnetism are forces that actively ACT on things....the binding denoted by the strong nuclear force isn't a similarly active participation, like those two other forces. Rather, the binding is more just....a description of the interaction that exists. What I mean by that is gravity and electromagnetism are forces that actively interact with things, moment by moment. They DO stuff. The strong nuclear force doesn't inherently have to DO anything, it doesn't have to actively INTERACT......it also just describes something that was already done, just by virtue of the way things exist. Basically what I'm trying to say is that the strong nuclear force above all else simply....is a way of explaining what we're looking at when we look at the fundamental bonds and framework between things even BEFORE electromagnetism and gravitation act UPON them. It says: here is potential that exists, potential for change, potential for matter. It doesn't have to DO anything TO exist....its us looking at stuff that exists and says okay, here is a thing that exists in this particular configuration, and here's why, here's what holds it all together....regardless of whether or not we saw it come together in the first place. In essence, the fantasy equivalent of this force, reinterpreted as a Primal Command that is one of four responsible for creation..... This Primal Command, the correlating equivalent of this interaction, could be described as simply: "Exist." In fact, this force is the lynchpin of this entire theory, because IMO here's the key thing about having FOUR different Primal Commands that are used together to create: If creation is either the end goal of these four Commands, imbued with Intent.....or if creation is simply the end result of these four Commands....either way.....if one of these four Commands in and of itself is "Create".....then why do you need the other three....for....creation? And if one of these four Commands is NOT "Create".....then no matter what the other three are "Change"/"Weigh"/"Bind"/"Divide"/"Unite".....any of the variations I've seen suggested, whichever way you look at it.....if none of the four Commands is Create.....then what are the other three Commands acting upon? What creation exists for them TO Change in the first place? Unless......there is no Dawnshard, no Command that just says "Create"....but there is still created stuff for the other three to act upon......because there IS a Dawnshard, a Command, that simply commands: "Exist." As if the magical or fantasy equivalent of the strong nuclear force is Ado or Adonalsium or some Prime Creator, commanding not that things BE creatED....but rather that things.....just already Exist. And thus another way of reframing or rephrasing this Primal Command for ease of picturing is just "Have Potential." With this being the Dawnshard that 'creates' space and all its boundless potential...by simply Commanding that all that potential just....inherently exist. And "Weigh" and "Change" (or Imbue Weight and Induce Change) are what act upon that Potential. The Matter and Energy that give it shape and purpose and definition....and then energetically change all of that into still more configurations. Thus the Shards that descend or derive from this parent Shard are the ones that denote innate potential that can be acted upon in a myriad of ways. For instance: Autonomy. All sentient beings exist with the innate potential to act autonomously, they have this capacity.....but whether or not they DO act autonomously is subject to whether that autonomy is allowed to matter, by the actions of others.....and with their ability to act on their own autonomy being subject to change, depending on the actions of others and forces acting upon them. Which brings us to the final Dawnshard, the one I think is the true outlier, not quite like the others......the one that corresponds with the weak nuclear force. Like the strong nuclear force, the weak one can be tricky to perfectly encapsulate, but the 'weak' part is a misnomer. Don't think of it in terms of lesser than the strong nuclear force in any way, because the usual kneejerk associations with strong and weak are utterly irrelevant to the NATURES of the strong and weak nuclear forces. And like I said earlier, there ARE still angles from which the weak nuclear force does pair naturally with the strong nuclear force, in ways that gravitation and electromagnetism don't. For instance, the weak nuclear force, unlike those other two, and similar to the strong nuclear force....isn't a force or interaction that inherently DOES anything. It doesn't require active participation or a specific catalyst. Rather, like the strong nuclear force, its perhaps better imagined or understood as just....a description of something that happens, regardless of what set that in motion or even whether something specific set it in motion at all. But at the same time, the thing that makes the weak nuclear force distinct from the three other fundamental forces is that its the only one of the four fundamental forces to break parity symmetry. This is....a whole thing that frankly I'm too exhausted by typing out this whole post to get into all of that now, but its not really necessary to understand it to understand the point I'm aiming at here. All you really have to get is that each of the other four forces: strong nuclear force, gravitation and electromagnetism....all have a relation to spatial coordinates that the weak nuclear force doesn't inherently have.....because while electromagnetism is a force that induces change, just like gravitation is a force that can create the kind of bond interactions that the strong nuclear force describes.....the weak nuclear force is what DESCRIBES the changes that take place once the potential described by the strong nuclear force IS acted upon. Another way to sum this up would be: the weak nuclear force is most relevant to describing what happens with radioactive decay. The gradual changes that take place among pre-existing bonds. And to bring this back to a fantasy equivalent......if the strong nuclear force correlates with 'Exist' or "Have Potential" and embodies the fundamental concept of space and its place in creation....the weak nuclear force embodies the fundamental concept of time. And this is how and why the weak nuclear force - and the Dawnshard it correlates to - would be distinct from the other three, the strong nuclear force (Exist), gravitation (Weigh) and Electromagnetism (Change). Because all of those things describe things that are, and how and why they change and what changes them. The weak nuclear force and its corresponding Dawnshard are simply the Creative Urge's awareness of all of that happening. The Prime Creator's desire to see that all of that happens. And if this urge or desire, this Prime Command were to have a specific name, I would imagine nothing more suitable than: "Move." Matter and Energy (Weigh and Change) are the substance and the events of the cosmere's story, everything that happens, why things change, why they matter, and Space (Exist) is the frame that encompasses it all, the stage upon which all of those events are set, with the edges of that stage existing as a frame and boundary that allows those events to be contained within something, for that existence to have a point of reference. Time (Move) is Prime Command that sets it all in motion, and thereby allows the story to take place. Without Time, without Momentum, without the prime urge to see all that has been created and the framework built to allow it to grow and change and matter.....actually DO all of that.....none of those other three Commands will ever result in anything. They'd pop into existence and then just....exist that way forever. The prime command that made things Exist, made them Have Potential would be irrelevant, because that infinite potential would never be acted upon. The prime command that set everything up to Change, to grow, to evolve, would never get to do its job. The prime command that imbues everything with weight, with import, that tells it all to have meaning, would never see any of that fulfilled. And thus, even though one of a set of four, even though intended to act in concert with the other three to ensure the fulfilment of the Creator's Created Vision.....Time "Make Things Go" is distinct from the other three. The other three Dawnshards conjured the framework of the machine that is the universe and installed the directives that would move that machine and all it creates. "Move" is the Dawnshard that acts as the start button that Ado pushed to make the machine turn on.....and stay on, continuing to advance the machine, the cosmere and all it contains....forever forward. And so just like "Exist" imagined a cosmere with innate potential, but doesn't require those things actively act in order to exist, but rather just exist regardless of all else, and that existence then shaped by energetic change and gravitated import....."Move" imagines change regardless of intent or active participation.....it just commands that things happen and continue to happen. So we end up with two Dawnshards that demand active engagement and intent, and two Dawnshards that are the reason things exist and change regardless of engagement and intent. Which brings me to my groupings: EXIST (Space) aka "Have potential" 1) Autonomy aka the innate capacity to self-govern, regardless of its actualization 2) Virtuosity aka the innate possession of knowledge or talent, regardless of whether that's ever realized or utilized MOVE (Time) aka "Things happen" 1) Ruin aka the inevitability of entropy, regardless of the how or why of it 2) Whimsy aka the randomness of change born of capriciousness, regardless of reason or intent WEIGH (Matter) aka "Imbue weight/import" 1) Honor aka the capacity to affect the potency of your words or actions via how much you actualize the honorable intent behind them 2) Devotion aka the capacity to affect the potency of your words or actions via how much you actualize the devotion that motivates them CHANGE (Energy) aka "Induce change" 1) Endowment aka the bequeathment of a gift to incite change 2) Cultivation aka the application of guidance or directive to enhance or encourage positive development 3) Invention aka the application of a spark of genius or ingenuity to change ideas or materials into something useful or desired I'm still undecided on where other things go, because Mercy could theoretically go under Exist or Weigh, depending on whether the cosmere rules consider Mercy to be an innate quality regardless of whether you act upon it or not, or whether the Mercy of your actions are relative to how much importance you attach to being merciful. I'm inclined to think Mercy goes under Exist, because whether the personal importance you place on whatever your personal view of mercy is doesn't necessarily equate to your actions actually being Merciful. Then again, Honor definitely goes under Weigh because adherence to one's vows or oaths is integral to the weight given to the magic these vows tap into......which suggests that in the cosmere there is no empirical standard to Honor, and rather the deciding factor in how much you're conducting yourself with Honor is relative to how much you commit to or abide by whatever code it is that you've sworn to, such as the Knights Radiant oaths. Personally, I think it could go either way and we won't know for sure until we see some indication of Mercy's magic system, because that - like with Honor - could give us a clue as to whether Mercy in the cosmere is considered an empirical standard, or whether your actions being considered merciful and thus granting access to Mercy's magic....depends on how well or not your actions are abiding by or aligning with a standard of mercy you've established as the baseline you measure mercy by. As a further example, I think (but I'm not one hundred percent sure) that Odium falls under Exist rather than Weigh, because what we've seen of Odium and the magic he's fueled suggests that unlike with Honor, there IS an empirical standard or baseline for Odium. After all, Rayse himself didn't abide by the same interpretation of his Intent that a lot of people fueled by his power considered to be "of Odium." He viewed himself as being Passion, and his magic didn't distinguish between whether or not all Voidbinders matched or aligned with an intentional desire to be of Odium, or act according to that nature. There was equal potential for his power and Investiture to be tapped by Dalinar, Singers, Moash......it simply built upon an innate capacity for hatred, with no regard for where that hatred was aimed or whether or not the person drawing upon Odium's Investiture happened to view themselves or their motivations as hatred, per se. Thus I posit Odium is derived from the parent Dawnshard "Exist" - tapping into or denoting some innate potential within people, regardless of whether they intentionally commit to it or use that intent to guide or shape their actions. Mercy, as well as Valor - could go either way, Weigh or Exist, alignment-relative or empirically innate. Similarly, Ambition could go either way, depending on whether there's an empirical standard for innate Ambition or if you have to align your actions with your own baseline for Ambition and commit to it, in order to tap Ambition-fueled Investiture. Which leaves me inclined to believe that Valor and Odium are the remaining two Exist Shards (Valor and Honor being under the same subheading just doesn't feel right to me, so I'm leaning towards Valor being empirically innate as opposed to Honor's relative alignment). Ambition and Mercy are the other two Intention/Potential Nature Shards, and thus if they're not Exist Shards, pursuant to the last two slots there being filled by Valor and Odium.....then I feel like Ambition and Mercy must be Weigh Shards, and thus their magic systems or Investiture channeling is reliant on a person aligning their actions with their own baseline for being/acting ambitious or merciful. Preservation is a tricky one but I think its ironically under the Move subheading, despite appearances. As I said earlier, I think a likely reframing or rephrasing of the Move Dawnshard is "Things Happen" and although preservation CAN denote a lack of change or stagnation.....that's not inherent in the word choice. Preservation is something that happens. If something is being preserved, regardless of the reason why - in pursuit of stagnation or in defense of life - you would describe that thing's state of being as 'it is being preserved' - which is a thing that happens. It has actual movement, even if that movement is in a consistent line for the time being described. And Preservation and Ruin being the only two paired Shards occupying the same subheading, would I think, actually make some sense and explain a lot for why those two Shards are natural opposites for each other in ways that no other Shards we've seen juxtaposed with each other are. They're opposites not because they hail from two different groupings, but because they're each other's inverse under the same subheading. Two opposite forms of things happening. "Something gets worse" and "Something is preserved" - those are paired opposites. Brandon's elsewhere said that if Ruin were to have a different opposite number....it might be Cultivation. This too makes sense because they both hail from different subheadings of "Things change" with Ruin being a description of 'regardless of why, things get worse as time passes' while its opposite number here is Cultivation as "make things better over time, with Intent." Again, a paired opposite for Ruin, but in an entirely different way that Ruin pairs opposite to Preservation. If there were to be another pair of Shards derived from the same parent Dawnshard, that act as paired opposites the way Ruin and Preservation do, I suspect one such example might be Odium and Virtuosity, as an example. Lastly of those we know is Dominion. While I'm not 100% on my reasoning for Odium and Valor being under Exist and Mercy and Ambition being under Weigh, I do feel confident enough in them to be inclined to assume Dominion is more likely to fall under one of the Things Happen or Induce Change subheadings. I'm leaning towards Things Happen, because Induce Change seems largely end-positive aimed, whereas Things Happen is inherently neutral, and while its feasible that Dominion could in some specific circumstances be hailed as a positive change, not in the sense of imposing authoritarian rule or tyranny but rather in the form of like....self-mastery, as in Induce Change in the form of learning or expertise so that one achieves Dominion over their field of study or intended pursuits.....I think its more likely that Dominion falls under "Move"/Things Happen in the sense that regardless of why, change often results as a followup to things coming under something else's purview or sway. If I'm right about this and Things Happen aka Move is the parent Dawnshard of Dominion, that would suggest that of the remaining two Shards, one falls under Move/Things Happen (Time) as well, and the other fills the last slot in Change/Induce Change (Energy). If Dominion IS actually derived from Change, then the remaining two Shards would move be Move/Things Happen (Time) Shards along with Ruin and Whimsy. But anyway. This is all theoretical for now. Guess we'll see one way or another, but in the meanwhile....thoughts?

I'm really excited about this because it fits into a theory I've had simmering for years, about Awakening's potential in the space age. I'm still working out the kinks, but I've long been of the opinion that Nalthis could achieve a magical form of nanotechnology....the key lies in the balance of what materials are used to create the nanobots, deploying them in 'formations' that can mimic human shape to optimize Investiture, and combining all of this with the quantum mechanics that influence/govern the difference between sentient and nonsentient spren on Roshar, in order to create an Identity phenomenon that acts as kind of the Investiture Physics version of wave/particle duality. In essence creating a Schrodinger's Sentience effect wherein nanobots meant to work in sync can be granted or imbued with a sense of Identity that lets them all see themselves as part of one singular whole, and thus susceptible to one singular Awakening Command....but still retain or be able to flip to a more individualized sense of self so that each individual nanobot can then execute that Command individually rather than as part of the whole.....and thus open up the full range of possibilities inherent in magic-derived nanotechnology. Like I said, its complicated and I'm still trying to figure out the nuances of how to make it work, given that there's a lot we don't know still about Commands and the specific mechanics of Awakening, but the possibilities with Awakened nanotech are pretty damn limitless and could theoretically make Nalthis the real dark horse of the cosmere space age.

This makes me think about how way back when the first Mistborn series was currently being published, there was a lot of initial emphasis placed on the fact that technically....metals are NOT the focus for Investiture/magic on Scadrial. Rather, its the molecular arrangements of those metals that act as a focus. In essence....a kind of pattern that Investiture is then channeled through in specific shapes and arrangements....aka magical manifestations. So ironically.....despite Sel and Scadrial seeming to have very different kinds of magic...it might actually be EASIER to hack Elantrian magic on Scadrial as opposed to say, Nalthis or Roshar. Because Sel's region-based magic tends to use the shape of locales the magic user is Connected to as a kind of focus, or at least in part....meaning that on some level, Sel and Scadrial both use shape/pattern-based foci whereas places like Nalthis and Roshar seem to use wavelength/frequency based foci (I believe on Nalthis, colors are the fuel that ignites the magical consumption/usage of Investiture - in the form of Breaths - just like on Scadrial, metals are the fuel that ignites the magical consumption/usage of the Investiture innate in Scadrians.....but just like the pattern of the molecules in the metals are the actual focus that the Investiture is channeled through in order to differentiate the shape each magical manifestation takes, depending on the type of metal you burn....similarly I think its wavelengths that are the actual focus of magical manifestations on Nalthis....only, its NOT actually the wavelengths of the colors/where they fall on prismatic spectrums....but rather, I think in the cosmere, there are Cognitive and Spiritual wavelengths as well...and thus Commands and Oaths can have a kind of wavelength or frequencies that act as foci for magic, just as the Listeners' Rhythms do. But I digress). So Moonlight used purified Dor to power the stamp that turned her into an Elantrian, yes....but on Scadrial, at least, she was able to power her Aons by hacking Scadrial's magic and channeling Investiture through locale-based patterns rather than molecular arrangement-based patterns. Or something like that, at least. *Shrugs* Still so much we don't know about how hacking magic systems works. (But incidentally, as I've theorized elsewhere that the men of gold and red might have started out as a Skai-created inverse or equivalent of Elantrians.....and magic on par with Elantrians is what makes them so terrifying as an army.....this could have a lot to do with them being the specific force Autonomy intended to use on Scadrial. Maybe this particular army ISN'T her go-to solution for every world she attempts to invade, conquer or destroy....but if they are Sel-originating, and Scadrial is a planet where its easier to hack Sel location/shape magics than other planets......it seems it'd be similarly easy or possible for Skai's magic systems to be hacked there as well. Just throwing that out there).

I've had the same thought, especially because one of the other Shards is literally named Invention....with Ingenuity having been tossed around as a possible alternative name for it in the past, I believe...and Innovation being a synonym as well. So I'm very curious to see any world(s) Invention might be Invested in or a kind of patron of, because I would expect them to have pretty interesting curves when it comes to the development of magic, tech and magi-tech.

Hmm, hadn't seen that WoB before so thanks for that. I do think given the context of the question and how it framed it as about the Iriali's religion rather than other aspects of their history does leave room for them to still be connected to Autonomy via fleeing her after the killing of Aona and Skai on Sel, so there is that. And I definitely think an army of Elantris-level magic users would be TERRIFYING....whereas the Iriali who aren't a part of said army could quite understandably be disconnected from that magic or unaware of it or how to use it....especially given that Sel-originating magics are region-based and need very specific hacks to work offworld (though of course, offworld usage IS doable, hence why an army originating from Sel could maintain its magical effectiveness elsewhere).

Well I was actually thinking about that last part and how it could also pertain to the idea that the Iriali were originally of Skai/Dominion....because a Shard with the Intent of holding dominion over all might certainly view themselves as being The One, who seeks to make all others apart of him, or encourages his worshippers to view him as already being all-encompassing.... And as such, his people might view his Shattering and subsequently being part of the Dor, which is mixed into everything about Sel....as being the same kind of thing the Iriali religion talks about as well. So the twist there would be people naturally assume that the Iriali are referring to Adonalsium's Shattering, and their whole belief about how attaining the Seventh Land will see The One reformed.....whereas maybe the Iriali have always been referring to DOMINION'S Shattering, and whatever their prophecies (perhaps Skai had a degree of future-sight as well?) say about the Seventh Land.....is really in pursuit of reforming the Shard of Dominion. We know the Iriali's story is meant to continue in a big way in the space age of the cosmere....and if you imagine the cosmere as having a three-act structure....with the big bad of the primarily historical fantasy act being Odium....the big bad of the primarily modern/urban fantasy act of the cosmere being Autonomy......then there could be a third big bad coming down the pipeline for the space age.....and who would see Dominion coming as the final big bad, thanks to him being seen as not-even-a-contender for the majority of the cosmere's published history?

I kinda have this theory bubbling that the Iriali are originally from Sel, fleeing from Autonomy, who conscripted most of their number into her army of gold and red as her 'fee' for helping Odium kill Aona and Skai. Still working on it, but we know there's still a continent we haven't seen on Sel, we know that Odium had help from Autonomy when Splintering Devotion and Dominion, we also know that those two weren't on the top of his hit list and the only reason he went after them when he did was because he came across them first/it was convenient, and we know VERY little about what magic on Sel looked like BEFORE Aona and Skai were killed.....and when it comes to the Iriali and their gold skin I've always had the nagging thought that they almost sound a lot like the silver-skinned Elantrians, just minus the glow.....which the Elantrians didn't have either, when the core Elantris Aon was disrupted. Basically, I've kinda been wondering if pre-Dor, Sel had another civilization that was like an inverse of Elantris, maybe primarily of Skai, way before his bone priests and their magic system, which seem to have only originated after his death. But imagine an....anti-Elantris, almost, with gold-skinned magic users born of Dominion the way Elantrians are transformed by their Devotion to something.....and Autonomy maybe even steered Odium and his Shard-shattering plans to Sel DELIBERATELY....because while Devotion and Dominion might not have been at the top of HIS hit list....who is more anathema to Autonomy than Dominion? Someone who by their Intent seeks to dominate all others, perhaps with an army of golden skinned magic users of power comparable to Elantrians....that Shard would ABSOLUTELY be at the top of Bavadin's hitlist....and since she seems to have no problem using the tools/magic/creations of other Shards when they catch her interest, such as how she was so willing to Invest herself into Scadrial and use her own god-metal in her plans there.....she strikes me as someone who is multi-purpose, and could very well go around sniping other Shards or getting others to do it for her, while at the same time using those strikes as a shopping expedition for her to scavenge anything of theirs that strikes her fancy or makes her think 'oooh, the things I could do with that.' Such as....an army of golden skinned magic warriors....now with streaks or accents of red, after being corrupted away from Dominion's Investiture to be remade somewhat in her own image....an army of Autonomy that interestingly enough, in EFFECT is not so different from what Skai might have intended for them, being used to conquer, destroy and well, dominate other people and planets....but all in the name of Autonomy's Intent and her weird lens of seeing domination as something that falls within her purview as long as she can justify that its wholly in the name of ensuring her own longterm Autonomy. But yeah....even without Sel being destroyed, as opposed to how a lot of theories have the Iriali starting out on their long trail because of the destruction of their homeworld.....Autonomy using the deaths of Aona and Skai to try and conscript Skai's army/'chosen people' into her service, willingly or not....that's the sort of thing that could send anyone who escaped her initial snatch and grab into the wind, fleeing Sel in all sorts of directions to try and (ironically) preserve their own autonomy. And I could easily see some Iriali ending up on Roshar, by way of Odium himself, if he happened to react to realizing Bavadin had used him to some degree by offering refuge (with plans of his own for them) for some Iriali fleeing her grasp....or else, perhaps some particularly cosmere-savvy Iriali at some point in the past realized that the single best place TO hide from Autonomy - their own personal bogeyman, something they feared even more than Odium - was in the system Odium was imprisoned in, since despite working together in the past, there's a lot of plausible reasons Iriali might think she'd give the Roshar system a wide berth in recent millennia. After all, regardless of any personal relationship or state of alliance she might have still had with Rayse/Odium after the Oathpact imprisoned him within the Roshar system....if there's one Shard in the entire cosmere who would be inclined to stay faaaaaar away from a system that was literally being used as a prison for a Shard.....it would be Autonomy.

Well tossing this out there to consider, in regards to the appearances/facial features/etc.... If there are Rosharan Skybreakers among the Ghostbloods, who says they're the only Rosharans in the group? Any Knights Radiant who aligned themselves with the Ghostbloods and their purposes wouldn't necessarily be beholden to the same divisions and conflict that exist between say, the majority of Skybreakers on Roshar and the other Orders. For instance....Shallan was offered a position in the Ghostbloods, and while we know she turned them down....who's to say that other Knights or Surgebinders with Illumination didn't join the group at some point? And if those Skybreakers happened to have a Lightweaver companion, near enough by that they could attach illusions to their faces before they went on a mission on a world that hasn't officially had widespread First Contact and thus required a degree of discretion....that could resolve the appearance issue quite handily.

I just posted a theory in The Lost Metal Full Book Reactions (Cosmere edition) thread that we could possibly see Sazed's Shard split into two Shards again....something WoBs said is technically possible, but that its unlikely you'd get the same two Shards you started with....and thus end up with Sazed holding Harmony (60% Preservation and 40% Discord) while Kelsier ends up holding Discord (60% Ruin and 40% Preservation). And with two distinct Shards that are both still a blend of two opposing extremes, but not perfectly balanced....both Sazed and Kelsier would be more free than Sazed currently is to act in pursuit of a specific Intent that isn't end-neutral...while still retaining enough of Ruin and Preservation, respectively, that neither would be as in danger of succumbing to a singular Shard's tendencies towards extremism in pursuit of a narrow definition of their Intent. Interestingly, it strikes me that if I'm on to something here....the Discord spoken of way back in the first trilogy epitaphs....might NOT actually be about Sazed at all, but about Kelsier-as-Discord. And "His name shall be Discord, and they will love him for it" sounds waaaay more like something people might say about Kelsier than Sazed. After all, look at what they say about him and his actions from the first trilogy.

Brandon's long-said that it is theoretically possible - though difficult - to split a Shard that's made up of two combined Shards like Harmony....but if you did, you likely wouldn't get the same two Shards you started with. What I'm wondering is if this is where the Harmony/Discord plot is going. Really, those seem like two opposing intents that are a different kind of yin/yang than Ruin and Preservation were, because both Harmony and Discord combine elements of both Ruin and Preservation, just in different ratios/different ways....that nevertheless results in two opposing Intents that Sazed is struggling to hold and reconcile himself. With this leading largely to him being ineffective as Harmony, and in danger of becoming Discord despite his best efforts and intentions....but still only ever one of these expressing itself at a time, with the other's Intent being temporarily repressed, and thus likely to engender a constant, never-ending cycle of back and forth where Sazed flip-flops between one or the other every few centuries. So I'm curious if an upcoming conflict between Kelsier and Sazed might lead to Kelsier either intentionally or accidentally somehow Shattering the Shard Sazed holds by himself....into Harmony and Discord as two separate Shards that can then be held by two people....Harmony by Sazed, but now able to be effective without the constant need to repress Discord or let enough of it leak into his actions that he's hindered from truly furthering harmonious Intent.....and Discord by Kelsier, which he is FAR more suited to than Sazed is. In theory, combining Ruin and Preservation into a single Shard and then splitting that Shard into two Shards that are BOTH a combination of Ruin and Preservation....could feasibly produce Shards that are less likely to ever drive their Vessels to the state of extremes that both Ati and Leras succumbed to in their own ways, because these resulting new Shards would be more nuanced, a blend of two Intents, even as singular Shards. Sazed, although always a good person, was never above being fallible as a mortal or now as a god, and holding a Shard that's truly Harmony but still with a degree of Ruin mixed in it....although not 50/50, maybe like....60 Preservation/40 Ruin...he'd be a lot more able to act in pursuit of his own best Intentions...while still having enough Ruin in him that he's never going to be in danger of seeking full preservation to such a degree that there's a threat of stagnation...as would have been possible when Leras held Preservation, had Ruin not been around to act as a counterweight to his Intent and actions. Meanwhile Kelsier, while a lot more shades of gray and capable of ruthlessness than Sazed, has always had positive qualities as well, and actively seeks to channel his worst qualities in pursuit of being a necessary evil still acting towards noble goals. He genuinely is invested in the protection and survival of his people, the issue has always just been the things he's willing to do in pursuit of that...because Kelsier, unlike Sazed who is inclined to use his godly power to make life better for mortals, at the possible risk of making them TOO comfortable and incapable of furthering themselves without divine aid (which in and of itself is still a kind of stagnation)....well Kelsier does believe that a degree of conflict is a good and necessary thing for the ongoing progress of humanity....just like a less than noble person like himself is necessary to act on behalf of good and noble people who aren't able to do certain things even in the name of their own survival. And if he held a Shard of Discord, that again wasn't purely a blend of Ruin and Preservation in total balance, but instead was still a split of those two Intents, just to a different, slightly imbalanced ratio, like 60 Ruin/40 Preservation....he'd be a lot better suited - and more capable and willing - to actively sow Discord not in the name of Ruining things or lives, but purely to push humanity to achieve things and grow rather than become overly comfortable and complacent...aka stagnant. And unlike when Ati held Ruin, Kelsier would hold a Shard that still had enough Preservation in it, akin to his own innate drive to protect people via his discordant actions....as well as an initial self-awareness and nature that's a better fit for a Shard of Discord than Ati ever was for Ruin....that he would theoretically not be at the same risk of being overtaken by malicious Intent more born of the Shard he holds than of his own choices and actions.

We don't know that she's been actively alive for hundreds of years though, is the thing. We know from Brandon that there are various different ways that characters (largely the worldhoppers) manage to stay around hundreds of years after their introductory storylines, but those methods vary and we don't really know all that much about how some of them work. We do know however that at least one of those methods involves some kind of time dilation/relativity trick, where the character is able to essentially 'fast forward' to later time periods, essentially skipping out on the passage of time around them....but for them, only a short amount of time has passed. So for instance, if this 'trick' is how Shai's able to still be present despite all the time that's passed since The Emperor's Soul, she HASN'T been active for hundreds of years, and thus its not unreasonable to think that most of her time spent honing her expertise with forgery since we last saw her HAS 'only' resulted in two universal stamps and one to turn her into an Elantrian....with all three of these still being HUGE feats based on where she was at when we last saw her. If we knew for sure that her method of longevity was akin to say, The Lord Ruler's, where he was actively around and cognizant for all the centuries between the time of his birth and that of his death, then yes, I'd agree that based on the amount of time theorized to have passed between The Emperor's Soul and The Lost Metal, it does seem like Shai should have a greater volume and variety of powerful, useful stamps than just the three we saw in this book. We just don't know that she actually has that much life experience despite the seeming 'breadth' of her lifespan. (Though to be fair, it also could be that she doesn't bring every stamp she has with her to every world or on every mission. Even with centuries of practice under her belt, stamps like the three we saw must still be considerable investments of time and skill. It wouldn't surprise me if a centuries old Shai had an 'armory' of stamps hidden somewhere that she goes back to between missions, but she's highly selective about which stamps she brings with her on various trips to different worlds based on what she thinks she'll need, plus a 'break glass in case of emergency' kind of failsafe stamp like the Elantrian one, in case things go way wrong - since there's not likely a better stamp for handling any generic but extreme threat to her, at least not without foreknowledge of the actual threat and the most useful skillset for combating it. And if she is centuries or even a millennia old and has built up a vast array of useful and powerful stamps that she has hidden somewhere for safekeeping, her choices of these three particular stamps do make a lot of sense as they're all potent and useful, and only seem underwhelming in light of the actual mission Shai found herself in the middle of....once Autonomy's timetable was revealed to be vastly further ahead of what the Ghostbloods assumed it to be. Shai at the start of the book seemed to see herself as on the Ghostblood equivalent of a milk run....meant to be a fairly simple surveillance mission with a possibility of recruiting Marasi, but not much more action/threat-intensive than that, as they still thought they had months if not years before Autonomy and her pawns' plans for Scadrial required the Ghostbloods directly intervene. Essentially the same reason the Ghostbloods didn't have more members available to help stop the threat. In light of that, its reasonable that if at some future point, Kelsier was going to summon his most powerful and magically skilled agents to go up against Autonomy and her minions directly, Shai might have planned to only at that point head to some offworld safehouse where she has her personal armory of stamps hidden, and make more selective choices based on planning to be in an actual firefight or actively infiltrating the enemy camp.) Edit: LOL I see kenod and I posted at about the same time and had similar trains of thought.

Quick question - does anybody know if this is the first mention we've heard of a planet called Mythos? Kelsier namedropped it as one of the places he was saying to Sazed they could potentially seek allies, if they had reliable means of transportation between worlds. It stood out to me not just because it was the only unfamiliar place referenced, but the way he phrased it "maybe even Mythos"....that had me particularly curious about it. Has me wondering if Kelsier considers it a less viable option than the others because of political/Shard-based friction or conflict with the people or powers of that world, or if maybe its a particularly hard to reach or almost legendary/fabled world. Especially considering that as the leader of the Ghostbloods, he'd obviously have to know TwinSoul's world is currently overrun or enslaved by dark aethers, so not exactly an easy source of allies....and given the difficulties in traversing to and from Sel via Shadesmar, or Roshar or the other systems that are difficult to get in and out of, it also seems less likely that the 'maybe even Mythos' qualifier is simply because Mythos is a hard to reach or inaccessible planet. Plus the name itself obviously carries implications of a particularly mythic or fabled place - or at least it feels like that's the sense readers are supposed to get from that particular name. So, just has me curious. I almost wonder if Mythos could be a post-Shattering name for Yolen. If there were one planet that was particularly regarded as legendary, it'd be the place the Shards originated....

Yeah, I didn't take that line to mean that he was claiming to be personally Steelpushing, just that even as presumably the person in charge of that airship, there was nothing he could do to make the ship go faster, even if he asked it of the crew. Its akin to if you were to call someone on a private jet and tell them about an emergency and they said "there's nothing I can do about that, I'm halfway across the Atlantic right now, there's nothing I can do to get back to New York any faster" - it doesn't mean they're actually flying the plane themselves. I mean, wouldn't shock me if he DID lie to the Ghostbloods about his abilities, despite their insistence on honesty with each other - Kel's always had a bad habit of being a bit too 'do as I say, not as I do' when it suits him - but I don't think this is specifically indicative of him doing that.

See, I totally agree with you that Sazed is not an antagonistic force CURRENTLY, though he might become one in the future - but neither is their outright antagonism current. Its also something that only exists in a hypothetical future. As such....Sazed's statement could only be taken as a complete assurance that any conflict foreshadowed by Brandon will be Kelsier's fault....if Sazed were infallible in his insights into the future, and we know for a fact that this is not always the case....ESPECIALLY where he himself is concerned. Its a well-established cosmere trope that everybody with some degree or means of future sight has blindspots when it comes to their own future. Plus, there's the possibility of unreliable narration ie Sazed not being able to be taken totally at face value when you consider the many kinds of misdirection and obfuscation these two engage in regularly. We know Sazed himself has self-doubts/concerns about what he might do in the future, given the potential dark side of Harmony aka Discord....and Sazed, better than anyone, knows how quick Kelsier is to look for any self-justification for the more dubiously ethical things he does. He had a front row seat to how Kelsier was able to spin his war against the Lord Ruler (a righteous cause) into an excuse to do anything he felt was necessary, so I could see Sazed being very concerned at how much more this older Kelsier might be able to justify to himself if he were once again convinced he was on the morally right side of the fight. Especially if the person he might someday be opposing is Sazed himself....one of the only people who normally IS around or able to talk Kelsier down from his most amoral decisions. Meaning this line from Sazed isn't necessarily a truism about the nature of any future conflict between them, but could just as easily be a massive bluff on Sazed's part, something he says in the hopes of encouraging Kelsier to be more sedate and circumspect about how he operates in the name of protecting Scadrial....because Sazed's aware that he might not always be in a position TO talk Kelsier down, and he's throwing out anything to try and get Kelsier to be more conscientious about his decision-making while he still has the chance. Ultimately, I'm just saying....I DO agree that a future conflict between Kelsier and Sazed is being heavily foreshadowed, and I'm not by any means trying to actually rule out the possibility that its Kelsier's fault, and he goes full villain in the future....I'm just saying it would be within Brandon's wheelhouse to avert course on that trajectory after using it as a red herring about the true nature of a future Kelsier vs Sazed showdown. And that I don't think anything EITHER Kelsier or Sazed says can definitively taken as proof of 'who's likely to be in the right' as of this point in time....because both are extremely biased and unreliable narrators, since they both are characters who always act in accordance to what they presume to be the right/necessary course of action, even when they're in total disagreement. Its up to the larger narrative to shape the context of who is actually 'more in the right' and until we have that actual context, it could go either way, with each character's assumptions or insinuations about the other being equally suspect when they're based on a hypothetical conflict whose actual origins or inciting actions haven't actually happened yet.

Well, not necessarily. Given that Brandon has always held that Kelsier's NEVER been 'a good guy' per se, but was able to be a hero in the first Mistborn era because it was all relative to the Lord Ruler, and Kelsier's worst instincts/aspects were able to be channeled into a genuinely righteous cause by virtue of being all about opposing the Lord Ruler..... And given the blatant hints that Sazed is becoming less about Harmony and verging more towards becoming Discord, and that there's even a possibility that Discord is a problem that will have to be faced in some way in Era 3.... I could see it being a VERY Sanderson-esque twist if it turns out that Kelsier IS slated to become a major antagonist to Sazed himself, which is something Sazed has long seen or sensed with his future sight, hence his wariness around him and lies to him..... BUT the twist being their antagonism comes in the form of Kelsier once again being drafted as a necessary evil/the hero Scadrial needs, in order to oppose a Discord-ized Sazed should the latter succumb to his worst aspects in future books.

Well Demoux is still out there too, right? He was confirmed to be one of the three worldhoppers looking for Hoid in the first Stormlight book, which isn't far off from this, time-wise.

So. The last of the Shards. The Moby Dick to our Ahabs. The great white whale that has eluded us though we've been chasing its specific Intent for longer than we've even had a hint of several other remaining Shards like Whimsy. With the only definitive things we've known about this Shard being that for awhile 'all it wanted was to hide and survive' - and that this was only TANGENTIALLY related to its Intent, not the crux of it - and that this desire or plan was based on it seeing the overall state of the cosmere and figuring the smart bet was to avoid the other Shard-centered conflicts as much as possible - which many have taken to view as a Wise/Prudent/Smart choice and thus assuming it was the Shard with an Intent similar to Wisdom, which we also knew there existed a Shard along those lines..... I'd like to posit that the Survival Shard being the Wisdom-related Shard was a misassumption on most of our parts all along, and the Wisdom-related Shard was Virtuosity, as others have recently theorized....and that the real clue to the Survival Shard's identity lies in the one final bit of information that we have about it....the WoB that says that while in the PAST all it wanted was to hide and survive, it has come to the conclusion that this might not actually be the best/most desirable course of action for it. As such, my theory is that the final, sixteenth Shard, the last to be revealed: Is the Shard with an Intent that essentially means.....to last. To endure, persist, continue on in perpetuity. Note: This is distinct from Preservation in several key ways, most of which boil down to the fact that Preservation tends to be about protecting/continuing the current status quo, things as they are, the resistance to change in general.....things which lend themselves to something the books have often referenced or implied....that pure, uncontested Preservation is just as bad in its own way as Ruin, as it would basically be stagnancy, static permanence. The Intent I'm suggesting here is not that at all. Rather, its about the creation of a legacy, a Shard geared around looking towards the future and seeing to it that SOMETHING stretches on into that future forever, that some mark or impact leaves lasting memorials. A Shard like this wouldn't be seeking to Preserve anything in one specific form, protect one specific status quo or point in time, its not resistant to CHANGE overall.....its simply focused on seeing to it that things....works, civilizations, life itself.....continue to exist in some form. If Odium is God's divine wrath, this Shard is the aspect of the Divine specifically focused on creating something, or imbuing creation....with an immortality of its own, a momentum that carries it forever onward into an unceasing future, no matter how it may change over time, how different it may come to look, so long as it simply....endures. Persists. Continues on as a lasting legacy that says God was here, people were here, life was here.....and this is its impact. A Shard like that isn't about Survival per se. Its about a permanence that can easily stretch across all three Realms, the Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual. The Intent of seeing to it that something lasts, something endures, no matter what else happens. That no matter what disasters befall various planets or species, what becomes of civilization or life, what happens even to gods themselves....some piece of what was manages to make it into the distant future, like a lifeboat from the past that tells whatever civilizations or beings might arise from the ashes of today's conflicts....this is the legacy of what came before. It endured. And as long as it endures....even in some small form.....all was not actually lost, no matter how all-encompassing a catastrophe was outside of those small remnants. The past is rendered immortal in some fashion, persisting through endless wanderings through time and space thanks to some measure of divine grace bestowed/focused on it....born specifically of the Intent to see to it that something of today makes it through to tomorrow, so that its never totally forgotten, living on even if just in memories. And so I could easily see a Shard like Endurance/Persistence/Perpetuity/Perseverance/Resilience/Permanence taking the stance that considering the conflicts waging between Shards throughout the cosmere as a whole....the smartest choice for it was to hide and survive. That way, no matter what happened with the other Shards and Vessels and their planets or peoples, even if the rest of the cosmere were to be destroyed....as long as it survived, something would always remain. Not everything would be lost. It initially hid itself away to survive, not because survival for its own sake was its end goal....but because by surviving it ensured that at least one piece of Adonalsium made it through to the other side of this cosmere-wide conflict between Shards, a lifeboat legacy that perhaps would then be able to sow new life or start things anew like a seed that had been kept safe until it could be safely planted somewhere it could grow freely, without danger. And of course.....along those same lines, one could easily imagine that such a Shard might eventually poke its head out of its hiding place, see how much worse things were getting even since it first avoided the conflict and hid itself away, and realized......this wasn't the way to ensure a lasting legacy, a slice of immortality. Because with the way things are escalating between various Shards, and how thorough various Shards seem to be in their quests to annihilate all opposition.....this Shard might eventually come to the conclusion that they were just fooling themselves. NOWHERE is truly safe. Eventually, after they've defeated all others, whatever Shard or Shards remain WILL eventually come looking for them, or else some penultimate conflict between Shards might be so catastrophic and far-reaching in the damages it unleashes....that even this Shard will be annihilated by the sheer scale of the destruction, REGARDLESS of where it attempts to hide. And thus....a Shard like this might ultimately conclude that the only TRUE way to fulfill its Intent, to see that something endures, that it, that life, that the cosmere manages to continue to exist in some form....is to stop being passive and actively join in the fight to ensure a lasting legacy and an existent tomorrow. That the only real option for protecting a future cosmere's ability to live and fight another day, is to join forces with other Shards like Harmony and Valor and stand up and fight THIS day, while there are still allies out there to be found, before the likes of Odium and Autonomy have so thoroughly thinned the ranks of any possible opposition that there's no one left TO ally with by the time they turn their attention to whomever's left, like this Shard. And as a result....the Survival Shard is not actually Survival, as Brandon's always definitively stated....because its Intent acknowledges that its not enough to simply survive for survival's own sake. Its the Shard of building something that lasts, of making it to tomorrow and the next day and the next day.....the Shard not of Preservation, but of enduring legacy, of persevering not just in the moment, but specifically in the hopes of maybe someday seeing a better future....and with this so integral to its Intent that there reaches a point where it can't justify simply hiding away from the rest of the universe, crossing its fingers that this will be enough to keep it safe....but instead acknowledges that the only true way to ensure it has a future that's worth something, that is more than JUST survival for the sake of existing....is to proactively stand and fight for that future, a future where more than just itself survives because it knows that it alone isn't enough to jumpstart a whole new creation, not when its only one sixteenth of what created the last one. Even if this does end up negatively impacting its own direct chances of survival.....it ups the odds of ensuring a future that contains more than just itself, and after reevaluation, this Shard decides that's worth the risk because a future where it alone exists isn't any more ideal than one where it dies.