TheoreticalMagic

I do agree that Adonalsium wasn't the ultimate Creator as the Dawnshards seem to be tools that existed separate from it....and Hoid frequently references dead gods that predate Adonalsium (and I remember Liars of Partinel chapters that talked about the corpses of dead gods on Yolen). I don't think the books are likely to go this direction overall as I do think Brandon intends the idea of the God Beyond to be the closest to a true Creator and seems to want to keep references to it ephemeral.....rather, my personal belief is that the references to the cosmere as the local galaxy is because Adonalsium is just one creator god of many and he created the cosmere's galaxy in the same way the Shards created many of the worlds within it. But who can say. I like how thought out this is. I definitely do think there's significance to Bo-Ado-Mishram's name....but my thought is its because she'll be at some point revealed as Adonalsium's "daughter" in the same way Syl is the daughter of the Stormfather/Tanavast. Its interesting to me that we now know that two of the three Bondsmith spren were definitely modeled after two of the three ancient spren created by Adonalsium....the Stormfather and the Sibling are NOT the Wind and the Stone, both of which exist separate from them but were clear inspirations or precursors. Even though it hasn't been explicitly been stated to the same degree, I don't think the Nightwatcher is the Night either....just termed the Old Magic because Cultivation deliberately created her in the same vein as the Night similar to how the Wind and Stone have a connection to the Stormfather and the Sibling without being one and the same. But we've heard about the Wind and the Stone still having presences....their voices are heard by characters in the modern day. There's no sign of the Night however....unless there is. I think Bo-Ado-Mishram IS the ancient Night spren, a child of Adonalsium directly....and Odium used his Connection to Roshar to Unmake her and recreate her as Bo-Ado-Mishram. She's such a threat to him because she has her own Connection to the power of Adonalsium. Much like the humans of Scadrial being directly created of Ruin and Preservation gives them an innate ability to Connect to those Shards, the sixteen original Vessels probably were only able to usurp and attract the power of Adonalsium because they were OF him to a degree, with an innate Connection. If Bo-Ado-Mishram is an Unmade that Odium reshaped from one of the three ancient spren of Roshar, he might have realized too late that his desire to demonstrate his power and create a powerful weapon out of her might have been a huge mistake....as she's innately a much BIGGER piece of Adonalsium than Rayse originally was....and thus perhaps more powerfully or directly Connected to ANY vestiges of Adonalsium's power than the original Vessels.

That makes sense. I originally had Weigh/Matter and Connect/Bind as one and the same, but since they're distinct, Change and Move seem the best choices to conflate instead. And yeah, I do think four of the Shards being aligned/mirroring the Intents of the Dawnshards could work thematically because we still don't know how the Dawnshards came about, but if they are external to Adonalsium....as they seem to be, considering they exist on post-Shattering and weren't also destroyed or shattered like he himself was.....well, think about how the Dawnshards need to find something within human hosts to latch on to, the way Hoid told Sigzil that the power of the Exist Dawnshard "liked him" - not in a way denoting sentience but on a cosmere-equivalent atomic level it seemed to resonate with Sigzil - that to me suggests that Adonalsium, even being God, also needed to have something inside him that resonated with each of the Dawnshards in order to use them to create.....and so the sixteen Shards could be the 12 Shards that correspond with each of these Archetypal figures plus the 4 Shards that correspond with each of the Dawnshards and comprise the parts of Adonalsium that resonated with them, allowing him to use the Dawnshards to create. I like that, it could definitely be the key here. My guesses were I try to match up the Shards to this.... 1) Whimsy - the Jester 2) Valor - the Hero 3) Autonomy - the Everyman 4) Dominion - the Ruler 5) Devotion - the Lover 6) Reason - the Sage plus 13) Honor - Connect 14) Preservation - Exist 15) Cultivation - Change (the idea of change as a journey definitely fits Cultivation) 16) Ruin - Weigh/Leave A Mark (because entropy is a natural part of existence and the idea that without death or an end to things, existence or life has less meaning, perhaps?) Invention? Virtuosity? Endowment? Mercy? Odium? Ambition?

This is my thought as well. I don't think the Unoathed had anything to do with the supposed fourth Shard, whether its Valor or Reason, but instead had to do with the concept of Redemption, which could be seen as falling under the purview of Honor, as a form of reclaiming Honor. It was talked up as a big theme in the final chapters, as the reforging of the Oathpact, the release of Bo-Ado-Mishram and Dalinar's validation of Tanavast's original choice to betray the power of Honor to do what he believed was right.....were all forms of redemption, and all carried the SPIRIT of Honor. And Adolin's realization of promises being a kind of Honor that's distinct from oaths (in his eyes)....and the fact that when trying to explain his position to the deadeyes, they were cited as seeming relieved that "he got it," and they didn't have to try to explain how they felt to him, given that they were still having difficulty with speech and communicating their thoughts.....all of that suggests that Adolin basically just got on the same page with them, and they were aligned in Intent when they went into that fight....which mirrors how the power of Honor wanted to be UNDERSTOOD and that was the key to Dalinar Connecting to it in the first place. Understanding WHY something matters so much to someone else and WHY its important to keep or break a promise to them (and think too how all of this coincided with Adolin letting go of his resentment of his father and sort of freeing both his parents from his childish expectations of them being perfect, looking for the Honor in how they behave rather than obsessing about the idealized Honor he associated with how he thinks they SHOULD have behaved) - understanding yourself, your enemies and your allies, as well as those you wish to protect seems to be at the heart of forging Connections with Honor....or at least, the new/young awareness of Honor. And so in my opinion the orange-red fiery glow was a new AVENUE towards Connecting with Honor, an Honor reclaimed. The whole idea of the Unoathed - coinciding with Adolin's (and the deadeyes') choice to uphold promises as more vital to behaving Honorably than strictly adhering to Oaths at all costs - IMO suggests that all of that was about them discovering a new way to tap into the power of Honor without needing Oaths....because Oaths are not the only way to carry Honor.

Personally, I can't help but compare Gavinor's forced premature aging to the power of Honor being depicted as a young child who needs to learn certain lessons in order to become a better Honor....with Dalinar essentially betraying the power (in its eyes) to send it to learn from Taravangian....the very person who "taught" Gavinor during his own supernaturally-affected adolescence. Like the parallels are very much there, IMO. And especially when you consider how much importance the power placed on wanting to be understood....it could be argued that who better to understand this young, newly aware Honor...and be understood by it in turn....than Gavinor, a child forced to grow up before his time due to being thrust into the heart of a conflict he had no agency in starting, and wrestling with feelings of at different times both identifying with Taravangian and feeling betrayed by him, and with the same also holding true of his feelings about Dalinar? I could easily see a potential future in which GAVINOR actually ends up becoming a Vessel for part of Honor, maybe whatever he's able to pull back from Taravangian as the power is torn between wanting to be part of Retribution and punish Oathbreakers, and growing to understand that Taravangian lacks key aspects of Honor and limits how fully the power of Honor is able to remain true to itself as just part of Retribution. Also, I couldn't help but notice how often the word redemption gets thrown around in the last few chapters of the book. The Heralds wanting to redeem themselves, Venli, Dalinar, Szeth, even Renarin and Rlain "making right a wrong that had long been festering" by freeing Bo-Ado-Mishram could be seen as a kind of redemption for the Radiants....the concept of redemption is HUGELY centered in the very same segment that talks about parts of Honor splitting off before the power merged with Odium and became Retribution. And since redemption conceptually can be framed as reclaiming a sense of honor.....I wonder if those parts of Honor that split off before joining Odium did so because they were the parts of the newly aware power that resonated with the lessons Adolin was learning about the distinction between promises and oaths, being honorable to oneself vs being performatively honorable, the way the Heralds were actively reclaiming their Honor with the reforged Oathpact.... Idk, just spitballing here, but Brandon's talked before about the possibility that a large or significant enough Splinter of a Shard could form its own mini-Intent. What I'm wondering is if ENOUGH of Honor split off before the main core of it joined with Retribution....that those pieces could in theory have their own Connection with the bits of Honor present in his spren and in the reforged Oathpact and Heralds protecting them.... And possibly act as a new Shard of Redemption, to oppose Retribution, even if its not as powerful as Retribution, or even the other original sixteen Shards....but still powerful ENOUGH to have its own distinct Intent, perhaps. If so....I could definitely see Gavinor/Redemption vs Taravangian/Retribution being a very interesting narrative to pursue, thematically speaking.

True, unless the power of Reason by its very nature is better suited than most Shards to take advantage of a presented opportunity to leave a current Vessel for a nearby alternative it considers a more preferable holder, or something along those lines. To be clear, I'm not arguing that I think this is likely or that I do think Reason has changed hands at some point, I just mean to point out that I'm sure Brandon could come up with a plausible way in which it might have happened and the sheer lack of knowledge anyone seems have about Reason's activities for 10,000 years allows for possibilities there. Again, this is more just in the interests of being thorough (or pedantic, heh).

I agree with most of your reasoning, Steel Speedster, but would like to raise the caveat that plans might have changed since Brandon first said this in 2018. Specifically I'm thinking of Virtuosity....IMO there's a possibility Brandon never planned for Virtuosity (the Shard) to be a particularly major player and so by the time he wrote Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, the backstory/fate of Virtuosity per that book could have changed to some degree. Theoretically, when he answered this question he COULD have been intending some storyline featuring a change of Vessels for Virtuosity before ultimately deciding to just have the Shard be Splintered by the time we actually got it referenced onscreen. Just throwing that out there to cover all our bases here. I think Endowment's tenses in her letter to Hoid strongly suggest Medelantorius is still the holder of Valor, and I also agree with your logic about Mercy. I had the thought that technically Mercy could have changed hands BEFORE the conflict with Ambition, but I think that's unlikely. The fates of Ambition, Devotion and Dominion seem to be the first big upset to the status quo of the Shards post Shattering, and the other Vessels' reactions to what Rayse did to Aona, Skai and Uli Da would feel off if Mercy had already lost its original Vessel. So I do think that Whimsy's the most likely choice for a Shard with a different Vessel, with Invention being a possible runner-up. But to throw out one final possibility, while I agree with your logic about Reason, I think its worth noting that this book makes a big point to stress the difference between power and Vessel. If the POWER of Reason is what felt strongly about just hiding and surviving - and in fact had to be persuaded over time to change its mind on that being the best course of action - then given how little anyone seems to know anything about Reason post-Shattering, in theory the power could have abandoned Euridrius at some point in the past, specifically because it felt Euridrius was acting unReasonably and putting the power itself in jeopardy with an intended course of action....and then promptly found a Vessel more accommodating to the power's desire to stay out of sight for as long as possible, with none of the other Shards any the wiser. But again, I do agree that Whimsy's the best bet here, if I had to pick just one.

My belief that its Reason and not Valor that's already on Roshar is because I think narratively, there's a lot more to work with - given Hoid's intent to go seek out Valor and recruit her to help in the fight against Retribution - if he has to actually track her down and take her with him to Roshar instead of his search for her leading him right back to where he always intended to end up anyway. On a related note, I think it also makes a lot of narrative sense for Reason to have been drawn to Roshar for the same reasons that Honor spoke of it appealing to him....the mathematical shape of it appealing to him on a fundamental, creative level.....like if there's one Shard above all others I could imagine FIRST seeking out Roshar or seeing it appealing to them when first surveying the cosmere after newly Ascending and seeking a place to settle....its Reason. So I could see Reason having settled on Roshar (or at least near it, like on the fourth moon) long before Honor showed up, let alone Cultivation and Odium....and a big part of why it never revealed itself was it was TRYING to abide by the original agreement between the Shards. To self-isolate. It was there first, but if it Reasoned that revealing itself even if to stake a claim and try and get Honor to leave could still be counted by its Power as a violation of the Shards' agreement and weakening it...much like Kor acknowledged in one of Honor's flashback chapters that every instance of gods violating their agreements weakened them to a degree or opened them up to attack....it could have decided its best bet was to just hunker down and wait out all the other Shards that arrived in system. I have MUCH more trouble imagining Valor adhering to the isolation policy if present on Roshar all along, bearing witness to everything Odium and the others did....because I think that Shard's power would have been one of the most accommodating in the face of its Vessel trying to break the isolation policy and intercede in a Shard conflict....because it would be in accordance with Valor's Intent to help Honor protect mortals IMO, or take a side in a war that threatened all. And since we know that Valor at some point did reach out to Endowment, even if without interacting with her directly....idk, maybe its just a hunch, but I find it far easier to reconcile Reason's presence thus far than Valor's. Especially since we know wherever Valor is, Endowment DID do something to help her, even though she didn't go there directly....and I do think if Valor had been on Roshar at that time, or in that system, Endowment's view of things on Roshar and the conflict with Rayse would have been a lot less....distant than how she regarded it when discussing it with Hoid in their communications. She treated it as a total abstract to her, and if she'd been involved (even distantly) in doing SOMETHING involving the Rosharan system in order to help Valor, I think there would be a different tone to how she talked to Hoid about Roshar. Because if she had been involved in things there, to any degree whatsoever, she'd either be a) hypocritical when accusing Hoid of having any involvement, and she strikes me as someone who views hypocrisy as a very big deal, or b) she'd be a bit more smug and possibly alluding to the idea that "you know, you don't HAVE to meddle or be present directly in order to play a role in things on Roshar or mess with Odium's plans. Not that I'd know anything about it. I'm just speaking hypothetically of course." If that makes sense? So yeah, I'm a big proponent of a fourth Shard being in system already and getting ready to be more directly involved, but that's my (latest) case for why its Reason rather than Valor. Too many things add up in favor of Reason for me, whereas the only real nods towards it being Valor is her thematic relevance to a conflict of this magnitude (which could apply equally to just the idea that she'll BECOME a player in the conflict, just as easily by being a late arrival as by having been present all along) and the fact that nobody knows where she is presently (which again, also applies equally to Reason anyway).

I know this isn't the first thread about the four Aspects of Adonalsium, but most others I've found try to sort or guess at them from a very different angle than I'm going with here: We know that many of the Rhythms the Singers sing to, and in a different way the Shards' Intents themselves, are based on the works of Carl Jung, according to things Brandon's said over the years. But if you look to a totally different area of Jung's ideas....what if the four Aspects of Adonalsium aren't related to Intents at all, but rather Archetypes? I'm basing this off the the Iriali interlude, when the 17th Shard worldhoppers are talking to some of them and reference Hoid....who the Iriali regard as part of the Trickster ASPECT of Adonalsium, spun off from him to sow chaos. Interestingly, the Trickster (or Jester, in Jung's original writings...although you could also make a case for the Trickster being a derivation of The Magician instead), is one of 12 archetypal FIGURES most commonly associated with Jung: The Innocent, The Orphan, The Hero, The Caregiver, The Explorer, The Rebel, The Lover, The Creator, The Jester, The Sage, The Magician and The Ruler. BUT. Each of those 12 Archetypes are usually associated with or filed under what are considered the four PRIMARY Jungian Archetypes. Or Aspects. I don't actually think the Trickster is one of Adonalsium's four primary Aspects, similar to how the Iriali myths about Hoid don't match up with what we know of Hoid's relationship to Adonalsium and other figures of cosmere mythology. But exploring this train of thought took me to the primary Archetypes/Aspects and I suspect there we might be much closer to the true nature of Adonalsium's Four Aspects. 1) THE PERSONA The Persona is how we present ourselves to the world. It could, theoretically be argued to be the Physical manifestation of the Self. It represents all the different "masks" or personas we build or adopt to navigate social situations or respond to specific scenarios. It acts to shield the ego from negative perceptions and to act as a social mask that shields others from all the negative emotions or instincts that aren't considered socially acceptable. 2) THE SHADOW The Shadow is part of the unconscious mind and contains all repressed ideas, negative aspects of the self or weaknesses, flaws, etc. It is all the things about the Self that are considered objectionable to not just society itself, but a person's own individual morals and wishes for the Self. I can't help but draw connections to Shadesmar, the Shadow Realm of the cosmere, though of course I don't think its as simple in Realmatics as to say all the negative aspects of the self reside in Shadesmar....or at least JUST the negative aspects. There's positive aspects to the Cognitive Realm as well. 3) THE ANIMA OR ANIMUS These dual aspects were considered by Jung to be the feminine part of the male psyche and the masculine part of the female psyche. The anima/animus serves as the primary method of communication - or Connection - to the collective unconscious, which resides at the heart of all Jungian theory. If there's an Aspect of Adonalsium more directly rooted in the Spiritual Realm, it would be this one. 4) THE SELF The final primary Jungian archetype is the unified Self....the individuation created by all three other Aspects being regarded as an entirety rather than engaged with separately. Interestingly, Jungian philosophy treats this as existing alongside each of the other three individual archetypes rather than being treated as an end result or conclusion....because of something that strikes me as reminiscent of how Fortune is talked about and might derive from some similar themes or mechanics: the idea that there is no singular way for all these other archetypes to combine, no singular "true" self....there are infinite expressions of the Self, each derived from the other three archetypes combining in different forms, proportions, according to different priorities, etc. From this angle it makes sense to treat the complete Self as one Aspect out of Four rather than one Aspect made from Three....because any expression of the Self is a Possibility rather than an Inevitability. I'm still working out my own thoughts on this, but I thought I'd share this chart which shows how the 12 Archetypal Figures can be juxtaposed with the four primary Aspects, which also brought to mind a lot of the theorizing about the Dawnshards and their nature/relationship to Adonalsium and his Four Aspects. I just haven't totally finalized how those connections work in my own mind, but maybe this will spark some ideas for other people in the meanwhile. (And if anyone's read any of my other posts about the Dawnshards, you know my belief is that the four Primal Commands are Exist, Weigh/Matter, Move and Connect/Unify/Bind. Leave a Mark definitely seems another way of saying Weigh/Matter IMO, Espiritual Journey is another way of saying Move, Provide Structure is Exist and Connect to Others is Connect/Unify/Bind. If I'm on to anything with these four Primary Archetypes being the Four Aspects of Adonalsium, I'd argue that each of the 12 Archetypal Figures in some way relate to one of the Shards in the vein of each being a manifestation of the Persona, the Shadow, the Anima/Animus or the Self....the sticking point is that leaves four Shards left over, which is what I'm still trying to work out....if maybe four of the Shards are more of a gestalt or distillation....idk, there's something I'm missing here. But I also think there's definitely something to this, especially when you match up the idea of the four Dawnshards as correlating to the chart below....like I don't think its a coincidence that there are sixteen spaces on that chart, in total. Maybe the reason we have so much trouble grouping sixteen Shards is because they don't fall into a unilateral table, but rather the below grouping, with four of them having a different relationship to the other twelve, who are more unilaterally equidistant?)

Oh I would definitely agree with that as well.

Since we now know all sixteen original Intents, as well as the existing composites (Retribution and Harmony/Discord), I've been keeping an eye out for any time a Shard's Intent pops up in text in a way that could be potentially significant. Maybe it'll come to nothing, but its fun to speculate at possible foreshadowing, so if anyone else notices where various Intents pop up in passing, feel free to note it here! For instance, in Chapter 67, we have this exchange:

I think the big problem with opposing Shard Intents is that the Shards are intentionally subjective to a large degree. I can't remember where, but there was an old quote where someone asked Brandon once if Ruin hadn't ended up on a planet with Preservation, is there another Shard he could be a polar opposite to, and he said Cultivation and Ruin would be just as diametrically opposed as Ruin and Preservation, their opposition would just present differently. So I think the problem we'll always run into is there are a great many ways the Shards COULD be positioned relative or opposite to each other. (And with acknowledgment that Brandon's also said not every Shard has a direct opposite, as pointed out above). Its kind of a "no technically wrong answers" situation. The real trick I think is just figuring out which BRANDON would position as his preferred opposition for any given Shard, when exploring this topic - even as a thought experiment. For instance....I think a strong case could be made for Reason and Whimsy being contentious opposites. But at the same time - and with this being a big part of my belief that Reason has been hidden on Roshar all along and will be a big player in the later five Stormlight Archive books - I think Reason more likely sits opposite Odium in Brandon's view of things or plans. My reasoning (heh) is based entirely on Taravangian having succeeded Rayse as Odium. The entire nature of Taravangian's boon & curse....the foundation of his entire character arc, his basic premise....is the divide between emotion and intellect. The question of whether those things are in opposition or just juxtaposition. Taravangian increasingly becomes a man at war with himself, especially after he Ascends to Odium. This book repeatedly labels him "a god divided"....with the divide being starkly and explicitly defined as having Reason on one side and Emotion on the other. And as Taravangian becomes more and more consumed by Odium's Intent over the course of the book, that divide gradually transforms into being Reason vs Odium. Even as Retribution, I think Reason has been perfectly queued up to be the ideal opposition to Taravangian, and I think its Vessel realizing this is what has prompted its shift away from being the Shard who only wants to hide and survive, to one who realizes that is not the best path forward. One of the most interesting things about Retribution is that its Intent doesn't match Taravangian NEARLY as well as Odium, or Reason, or multiple other Intents would. Oh, he can work with it well enough - at least for now, I think - but its not as clear or direct a fit for him as other Shards are for other Vessels. Taravangian is not particularly motivated by Retribution in particular....he definitely has vindictive tendencies, moments where he wants to avenge others, etc, but I wouldn't call Retribution a driving force for him specifically. Which I do think is part of Dalinar's gambit and provides wiggle room for the power of Retribution to become disenchanted with its Vessel and potentially predisposed to leaving him for a better suited Vessel, similar to how Bo-Ado-Mishram was a potential rival for the power of Odium. What I'm curious about moving forward is the possibility that Taravangian might target Reason as his preferred next Shard to subsume....in an attempt to get back to what he considers his Peak Operating Platform....when he strikes that balance between intellect and emotion just so. And if Reason did get added to Retribution, that might not be a bad thing at all, actually....because Taravangian WAS better when he held his two aspects juxtaposed rather than in opposition. The irony of course is that he started OUT seeing his value as being tied to what he was capable of at his smartest, but he grew increasingly concerned that he was losing something vital when disconnected to his passions, the emotions that drove him to WANT to find various outcomes with his intellect. It could be argued that this is what led him down the road to becoming Odium, more than anything else....believing that his more intellectual side was the more dangerous, while he was at his most human when emotive.....but he took things too far in that direction, and now I could see him becoming desperate to add an external booster shot of Reason in an attempt to swing the pendulum back.

Spoilers for the whole book, but this mostly focuses on Chapter 50. Okay, so this bit from Chapter 50 stuck out at me and I'm a little obsessed with figuring out what it implies about the Iriali:

I mean, I do think its worth noting that a lot of emphasis was placed on every character who referenced Cultivation post-Contest of Champions presenting their assumptions about her as fact. Hoid, etc....they all took it as a given that Cultivation fled the system in fear of what she'd unleashed, even using descriptors like that to sum up their view of her departure, but like.....we weren't actually given any kind of direct look at her leaving, any hint of her POV, or even the POV of anyone who had a front row seat to her leaving. And the more something is treated as a given in this series, without any kind of actual scenes SHOWING it to be so....the more I tend to expect there will be some kind of recontextualization later on, once we get a proper look at what Cultivation is up to now or the precise circumstances of her leaving, her reaction/mood at the time, stuff like that. To be clear, I don't think that she's planned all of this out and everything's going exactly as she hoped. I do think at the very least, some of her big swings backfired or didn't go the way she wanted....she definitely gambled and I think she took some heavy losses....but I don't think she was ever expecting a perfect victory either. She strikes me very much as someone who's like "I'm open to the possibility that things have to get a lot worse before they can get better." So I think none of this is IDEAL for her and not like, going according to her preferred outcomes, but I also don't think it was a complete wash for her and that she really just ran away with her tail tucked between her legs. I think we'll find out eventually that it was a tactical retreat but she did get some of what she wanted or laid the groundwork for her to still be in the game, come the second half of the series or whatever story focuses on the next place she turns up.

I am expecting Whimsy to have a Shardworld that gets some focus time, but likely as more of a side project than a future major series. I personally believe that Reason is both the Shard Brandon mentioned as (formerly) just wanting to hide and survive AND is hidden on Roshar, which frees up Valor, so if I had to pick one Shard still likely to have an as yet revealed Major Shardworld that gets significant development, it'd be either Valor or Mercy. My follow-up guess is Invention - the only reason I don't rate it higher in terms of likeliness-to-be-Invested in a setting of major future significance is because I have a gut perception of Invention as having invested a lot of time and energy in a bunch of Shardworlds that are all PART of its Grand Apparatus, rather than the Grand Apparatus being hosted on a single world. Although I could see Invention being present on a Major Shardworld that it uses as a central hub for the entire Apparatus, but for some reason I just have this image in my head of Invention as the kind of Shard who always stays on the move (in as much as Shards are capable of that, given the logistics involved for them). Kinda the whole idea of Invention never sleeps, its progress constantly in motion....idk. Like I said, more of a hunch than anything. And if I were to bet on any of the remaining Shards being paired up, I could see it being interesting if Mercy and Valor end up on the same Shardworld and are opposing forces there (given that their Intents aren't necessarily at odds, but I don't see Mercy and Valor being likely to be friendly, based on what little HAS been said about them thus far). We know Valor is currently seen as the only other Shard aside from Endowment who still abides by the isolation stricture, but that doesn't mean that can't still change in the future or that Endowment isn't necessarily correct about that, or telling the truth. Plus, singling out Valor as the only other Shard abiding by the isolation agreement does imply that Mercy is near or around another Shard.....well, no, actually, that's not true. Never mind. Mercy could currently be off by herself, and Endowment just didn't rate Mercy as adhering to the isolation agreement due to Mercy's alleged involvement in the Odium and Ambition conflict. Alternatively, I could see Whimsy and Invention ending up focused on the same Shardworld at some point, but again, more of just a gut feeling.

I wouldn't be so sure about Harmony's placement, because given where Roshar's timeline intersects with the Mistborn timeline, its very possible that Harmony will be giving way to Discord just as things start to heat up with Retribution, and that could really shake up the gameboard.

I'm very intrigued by hypothetical AUs where different Vessels ended up with different Shards. Like we do know there is SOME connection between what Vessels got what Shards and it wasn't like they all got to pick whichever one they wanted, but between stuff like this and knowing that Ati was originally considered a good man before Ruin's Intent eventually corrupted him over time, it makes me idly wonder how different things would have ended up if some of the Vessels were swapped around. Like what if Ati had gotten Honor, and Tanavast got Mercy, and Uli Da (Mercy's Vessel, and alleged to have a somewhat....unconventional take on Mercy) got Ruin and was actually already more suited to that one, stuff like that.

Move. The Prime Command that turns all the parts of creation into moving parts. The "start" button for life that Commands things that Exist to do stuff, puts Changes in motion, etc.

If there is a fourth Shard and its been here this whole time, without anyone knowing....it definitely fits the parameters of "one that just wants to hide and survive" - it was already on Roshar when the others got there, having been Invested in the fourth moon that crashed into it, and it couldn't just up and leave Roshar once the others got there without them realizing it had been there, which maybe Reason didn't want them to know for whatever reason (heh)....and then by the time Odium got there, it figured there was REALLY no way to up and leave without him noticing it, so instead it decided to shelter in place and just hide and survive, trying to outlast all the others and their conflict. Which also fits with the fragments of the shattered moon reacting to Honor and Odium's conflict AND messing with Shard sight.....its Reason, deliberately throwing sand in their eyes every time their conflict brings them near enough to discovering its presence. And I could easily see Reason finding a way to nudge things in a preferred direction by subtly influencing things like the discovery of Towerlight....and I believe Brandon's also said that the Shard that just wants to hide and survive might have at some point changed its mind about that actually being the best path forward and adopting a different approach.

Perhaps a wild take, but with the speculation about a fourth Shard associated with the fourth moon....I'm wondering if perhaps it could be Reason, hidden there all along....even though Reason was supposedly the one who just wants to hide and survive. I think most of us have taken that to assume that Reason is deliberately far away from any conflict, but there was nothing in the wording I think that necessitates that interpretation. Maybe that quote was more about Reason not getting involved or doing anything to advertise its presence, BECAUSE of how near it was to the conflict, and it figured the best thing it could do was just hunker down and shelter in place....hide and survive. The Reason Shard has also been associated with the quote floated about one Shard not being Invested in a world......what if that's a technicality, and its actually that Reason is Invested in a world's MOON. And thus, Reason might actually be the one that shrouds - fitting with it being the one that just wants to hide and survive - and as speculated above, is the one associated with Night....which is where the moon is SUPPOSED to be, or was originally.... And it actually makes sense IMO that if Reason was Invested in the fourth moon and crashed before Honor and Cultivation got there....maybe Reason was like oh crap once they realized a whole bunch of Shard messiness was about to land on its vacation home before it had a chance to pack up and move elsewhere without attracting attention or anyone knowing they'd been there or where they were going. And thus, they just made their entire deal about hiding from the three other Shards to end up in that system, hoping to outlast them, basically....which it Reasoned was theoretically possible - and their best chance of survival.....so long as nobody ever figured out that there was a fourth Shard there all along. PLUS. The other thing I like about the idea that Reason has been secretly Invested in Roshar.....or something that crashed into Roshar destructively and extensively enough to mix all its parts together....is I think there's some significance still yet to uncover about the Tower, that highest reaching plateau on the Shattered Plains, aka the site where that moon crashed into Roshar....a moon whose fragments under the Shattered Plain react to the conflict between Honor and Odium. Perhaps the reaction is Reason trying to conceal its presence and Investiture from Honor and Odium....having to frequently adjust or change their "shroud" in order to keep from being accidentally uncovered as a byproduct of that conflict? Those fragments are also said to obscure a Shard's vision....which fits perfectly with the idea of a Night shroud....Invested in by a Shard that just wants to hide from other Shards and survive. The reason I bring up the Tower is I keep wondering about a possible connection to Urithiru, even if only in the sense that Urithiru was in some way inspired by the Tower or something to do with it. Still working on this idea, but the fact that nobody seems to know exactly who made Urithiru or how....the fact that the Oathgates allow passage to it through the Cognitive Realm....the fact that the third Bondsmith spren, one decidedly NOT associated with the third KNOWN god of Roshar, Odium....ALSO spent a ton of time withdrawing from the world and 'just trying to hide and survive'..... And the fact that Urithiru is where Navani discovered Towerlight....through scientific methods that definitely feel like the product of Reason to me.... Still trying to bring it all together, but I feel like there's SOMETHING here.....and I wonder if Reason - who Brandon ALSO has said INITIALLY just wanted to hide and survive, but in a fairly recent quote I can't source at the moment, said they had (or might have) at some point changed their mind about that being the right approach.... What I'm wondering is if Reason, literally hiding right under everyone's noses on Roshar all along....eventually decided even if they did stay successfully hidden, the Shard conflict had escalated to such a degree they were worried about being destroyed or killed purely as collateral damage....or else decided that Odium was a threat that they had to actively oppose, even if they Reasoned they weren't a match for him in any kind of direct conflict.... And so, taking advantage of the shroud provided by the already existing Sibling - child of Honor and Cultivation - which already had the capacity to create Towerlight, a blend of their Tones....Reason figured out a way to secretly Invest in the Sibling, Urithiru, Towerlight, etc....make Towerlight their Light or "hack" it or use it as a cover to obscure the fact that they were slipping their own Light into the mix as a ringer for some unknown purpose.... Thus joining the conflict and nudging things towards the direction they preferred most, while still retaining their cover for as long as possible..... Leading to the current stage where Retribution SEEMS to be the only god left on Roshar, now that Cultivation is gone...and certainly thinks he is, perhaps because a certain being is still messing with futuresight and continuing to shroud the presence of still yet another god....not a newcomer, but actually the one that's been on Roshar the longest, and knows more of its secrets than anyone at this point....and Reason just has to figure out a way how to use that to their advantage without giving up their biggest advantage....the fact that nobody else knows its there, the secret player behind the scenes from day one. And I can't think of a more perfect champion for Reason than Navani Kholin.... Of course, if Cultivation is indisputably Night, that throws the whole Night/moon/shroud/Reason theory off, but most of this logic could still track with the idea that Reason is Invested in stone....the Stone that comes from the moon it originally Invested in. But Stone nurturing does fit Cultivation way better so I think there's wiggle room either way.

Well we know that Autonomy has managed to Invest herself in more than one world in sizable ways, though that's largely due to her use of avatars. I would be surprised if there wasn't at least one other Shard that had a major presence or hand in the creation or development of more than one Shardworld, and Whimsy would be my first guess for another Shard with that kind of multi-planetary influence. While we know next to nothing about Whimsy or its Vessel, I could easily imagine different directions they could be taken....for instance, imagine Whimsy as a Shard who plays a huge role in setting up or developing a Shardworld, then randomly gets bored and decides it wants to move on and do something else now and so rips enough of its Investiture out of that Shardworld to allow it to move on and start fresh or meddle somewhere else.....perhaps leaving all kinds of odd Shardworlds with baffling "natural" phenomena or aspects born of a Whimsical creator....who got tired of playing with this toy and didn't particularly care what happened to them once it was gone. Which I imagine could lead a lot of those Shardworlds or civilizations to totally collapse without its presence or active/continuing Investiture....while other Shardworlds might have odd natures that actually stem from the fact that Whimsy ISN'T there anymore....so whatever role it played in that planet's original design or nature left a gaping hole IN that original design or how the planet was SUPPOSED to work or function.....thus leading to inhabitants trying to shore it up or compensate for that in whatever manner they could think of, no matter how desperate or bizarre.....or altered natural forces or functions collapsing around the wound left by Whimsy accidentally falls into such a formation as to allow the Shardworld to continue to exist....but only in a truly unique, one in a million chance of things working out like this kind of way. Creating the kinds of forces or phenomena that would never really make sense for someone to have designed that way INTENTIONALLY....and instead are just a result of the dominoes falling where they may, luckily enough in a formation that still allowed for the continuation of life. Point being, I could definitely see the kite world being one Whimsy is actively and currently Invested in.....while one of its previous Shardworlds is left with the inexplicable phenomenon of an ocean in the sky, somehow managing to still support life through some lucky chance or by some extremely outside the box thinking by its inhabitants or perhaps another Shard trying to "fix" things. But alternatively, my next best bet would be its Invention's design....a world where Invention contrived some way to make the seemingly impossible happen, perhaps simply because the world was so flawed or inhospitable that the only design Invention could come up with to make it inhabitable required some divine mechanism that led to or created an ocean in the sky. Or maybe Invention just wanted to see if it could create such a phenomenon, or did so as part of some experiment. Then again, I do also think we could all just be overthinking it and the talk of oceans in the sky is more metaphorical or maybe due to it being a world where the line between the Physical and Cognitive Realms blurs or is fine enough that some aspect of Shadesmar's strange inversion effects is apparent or mirrored in the sky of that world in the Physical Realm as well.

I've revised my Unified Field Theory a bit....I think my reasoning for the four different Dawnshards is still sound, but now I think the grouping of the Shards isn't about them falling under different Dawnshard headings, but rather that the groups are the result of each Shard's attempt to fulfill one of the four Dawnshard Commands. Since I do believe the Shattering was the result of all four Primal Commands being wielded on the same being at the same time, rather than as part of a process....the stress of trying to fulfill conflicting Commands (Exist is a command for something to just Be as it is, while Change is a command to become something other than what it already is, for example) led to Adonalsium Shattering along four fracture points, one for each Dawnshard. So the determining factor for what Shards are ASSOCIATED with which Dawnshard is which Shard matches up with which Command in the sense that each Shard is one fourth of Adonalsium's attempt to fulfill each Primal Command. So because the Dawnshard "Exist" was used as a Command, four Shards are the pieces of Adonalsium that tried to simply Exist, as Commanded. (With my guesses being they're the four Intents that could represent innate traits that can exist on their own absent of any modifiers: Odium - divine wrath or hatred, Virtuosity - divine artistry or creativity, Valor - divine courage or strength of spirit, Reason - divine logic or deliberation). Thus, in a sense they are the Exist Shards, they fall under a grouping of different traits of Adonalsium that Existed, regardless of context.....but they don't fall under that heading because they're integral or necessary forms of Existence or need to complement or mirror each other in any way....they're simply four different Intents Splintered off of Adonalsium into distinct Shards, due to his attempt to satisfy the directive imposed on him by that Primal Command. And this is why Brandon's always emphasized that Adonalsium could have Shattered into entirely different Intents....because there are plenty of innate traits that could have Existed within a being like Adonalsium.....if there had been different people wielding the Dawnshards or different Vessels waiting to pick up the Shards of what Adonalsium Shattered into, there could have been entirely different ways in which Adonalsium tried to meet the demands of that Command. So while I'm still wavering on the proper name or specific wording for the Weigh/Mass/Matter/Connect/Bind Dawnshard I outlined in my earlier theory, I'm as positive about Move being the other remaining one as I was about Exist being a Dawnshard, lol. I just changed my mind on the deciding factors for Shard association with each Dawnshard, as outlined above. (As I've mentioned in other threads, my latest guesses for Shards resulting from Adonalsium's attempt to obey the Connect/Bind Command are ones that embody ways in which Adonalsium might have Connected with different parts of Creation....or vice versa. Mercy, Honor, Devotion and Dominion. Connections between things that Exist, but that require relative context in order to have meaning, actual weight, to matter. My guesses for the attempts to obey the Move Command are ways in which the Primal Mover might have typically Moved.....Autonomy - self determining, Ruin - progressing things to end states, Preservation - actively acting to forestall entropic progression, Whimsy - moving randomly or without specific consideration or planning. And my guesses for its attempts to fulfill the Change directive, since that Dawnshard has consistently been denoted as being about Commanding something to remake itself in a positive or additive way....Endowment - change through the bequeathing of a gift, Invention - change through the application of genius or new ideas, Ambition - change towards an end goal reliant on advancement, acquisition, gaining or taking more, Cultivation - change derived from planning or nourishment aimed at encouraging growth or evolution). NOW. The new part for me is that still leaves us with the idea of four Super Shards or original Aspects of Adonalsium. Since I also don't think that these are the Dawnshards themselves at this point, I agree that the Shard groupings of four aren't innately meant to add up or combine into one of each of these Aspects. Instead, my thought now is that the four initial Aspects of Adonalsium were the four Intents that led to issuing the four Primal Commands that became known as the Dawnshards. They're the four 'sides' of Adonalsium's nature that led him to choose these specific four Primal Commands to be the driving mechanism of Creation. The origin points for the Dawnshards, which LIKE the sixteen Shards, had specific Intents that those Dawnshards derived from....much like the various magic systems within the cosmere derive from the Shards' Intents and are the result of how and where they Invest themselves. Which gives us the end result of four Aspects of Adonalsium that each lead to the choice of a Primal Command that's intended to enact and direct Creation.....and which are then later used by the original Vessels to Shatter Adonalsium....and because there are four of these Commands, that's why the resulting Shards can be sorted into four groupings.....according to which Shards derive from attempts to fulfill one of the four Dawnshard Commands. The symmetry of each of these four groupings having four Shards could theoretically be chalked up to the idea that the four Commands being used in perfect unison meant the stress fractures this applied to Adonalsium were distributed evenly....so it resulted in a symmetrical Shattering in the sense of how many pieces each Command created. Thus there's a distinct pattern or linkage between the Aspects, Dawnshards and Shards, but the connection isn't quite as direct as its often theorized as having been. And the key to determining the four Aspects is to figure out what four Intents might lead to Adonalsium deciding that these four Commands were what was needed (or preferred) to Create with. And THAT'S how we get our initial "Super Shards" IMO.

EXIST - Inherent, things that can just Be without other context - Virtuosity (artistic talent or spirit) - Odium (divine wrath or hatred) - Valor (innate strength of spirit or courage) - Reason (natural capacity for careful deliberation) UNITE/COMBINE/CONNECT/MATTER - things that require a connection to some other being, thing or idea in order to matter, combine what EXISTS to be more than what they initially Exist as - Honor (can not exist in a vacuum, requires a standard of conduct or oaths being adhered to in order to weigh how honorable or not one is) - Devotion (has no meaning independently of something, someone or some concept or pursuit to focus that devotion on) - Dominion (forging a deliberately constructed connection that positions one higher relative to others....claiming Dominion OVER something or someone) - Mercy (relative to situations, power differentials, etc....Mercy requires a dynamic between one & someone or something else, and what would be considered merciful in one situation wouldn't necessarily be considered merciful in another) MOVE - things that have a direction or trajectory, the Primal Command for what Exists and Connects to Move from their start point, initial state or position of creation, to act, do things, be other than static - Autonomy (move in a self-determined direction under one's own power or authority) - Ruin (move towards a net negative endpoint, natural entropy and decay) - Preservation (move opposite an entropic direction, requiring actions undertaken to preserve things from decay, death, maintain Existence and Connections as they are, not as a natural state but as the result of active choices to move the needle back from a shift towards entropy or reverse course) - Whimsy (acting and moving in ways and directions chosen by chance, caprice or at random with no aim towards longterm planning or any particular reason or intention) CHANGE - remaking things in a net positive way or with an aim towards becoming more than what they already Exist, Connect or Move as - Ambition (movement undertaken with specific trajectories intending change to oneself or one's circumstances born of advancement, acquisitions, or other additives) - Invention (movement that applies innovation or a spark of genius to the Combining/Connecting/Uniting of base materials or ideas that Exist in order to create something new or useful) - Endowment (introduction of a gift of some kind into a system, civilization or person's circumstances to induce change born of how they use that) - Cultivation (using planning and additions of resources, ideas or labor to foster or encourage positive growth or increased complexity)

Apologies for how long this got, but once I got started theorizing I kept going lol. There was a LOT to unpack, but I'm pretty pleased with the end result: My guess as to why he thinks Honor being part of Odium might be a good thing is not because he thinks Honor has anything to learn/gain from Odium specifically, but rather Honor (AND potentially any other Shards observing how Retribution ends up being different from Odium) can learn and grow from seeing how Honor's fusion with Odium DOES result in some positives, in the form of forcing more of a focusing of Intent on Odium, in a specific direction. The thing about Retribution is although it can be (and often is) as violent and hatred based or derived as Odium's unchecked influence, there is at least the POTENTIAL for righteous retribution, a call to accountability, that pure, uninfluenced Odium just does not have. Retribution can be focused, it can be mitigated, it can be directed in SOME positive directions whereas Odium itself is just the unfiltered, naturally existent capacity for wrath and hatred. Even when Rayse tried to define his own Intent as Passion, it always seemed to me that if it were that easy to treat Passion and Odium as interchangeable Intents, we would see some more acknowledgment of that from if not Hoid, at least other Shards (although they all admittedly seemed biased against Rayse in their own ways....not unfairly biased necessarily, just non-objective in general). Rayse calling himself Passion instead of Odium felt to me more like something that was THEORETICALLY possible, a capacity for Odium to become more than just hatred, or something other than just divine wrath.....but in actuality, he was more just lying to himself or projecting the self-image of what he WANTED his Intent to be....than actually making it so. In the cosmere, even gods embodying a fundamental aspect or shard of the Primal Creator aren't above divine self-delusion. So I don't think it was really about what Dalinar thought Honor could learn from fusing with Odium, but rather what he could PROVE by fusing with Odium. Or what could be proven by fusing with Odium. Something to consider as well is that Dalinar is backed into a position of playing a long game with beings who he KNOWS can see into the future into varying degrees.....so it could be argued his best chance of success with a longterm plan is to be as vague or misleading about his actual goals as possible in the here and now or planning stages. That way, Shards looking far down the road to possible outcomes could feasibly mistake a future where things work out as Dalinar's hoping as one possibility if things happened to play out according to various random factors.....rather than in the way they THINK he's planning for things to work out.....which is what they might actually be working to avoid or keep from coming about. This way, any Shards who might feel threatened here and now by Dalinar's actual endgoals have a mistaken impression of which are just possible outcomes of his actions and which are his HOPED FOR outcomes.....and thus might be inclined to let his experiment play out in curiosity as to whether Honor can take anything positive away from the experience of being one with Odium.....rather than be wary of letting his experiment continue past its early stages at all, because they would be personally invested in nipping it in the bud as well, if they realized what he was actually trying to prove. The key for me lies in all the speculation we've done over the years about a possible union of Shards leading to Dalinar becoming something like Unity. Because his entire character arc lies in being a Bondsmith. In the importance of the power of Connection....which arguably is just as vital a component of being a Bondsmith as the actual Surges of Adhesion and Tension are. After all, Dalinar's story is ultimately a redemption storyline....it just doesn't always present that way because we came into it in the middle of it, our introduction to him and initial impressions of him were definitively NOT when he was at his worst. Odium originally intended for him to be HIS Champion. The Champion of divine wrath and hatred, absent of any further meaning or focus or external Intent. (And uh, it can be argued how effective or complete that redemption arc is, but the shape of it is there is what I'm saying). Dalinar's theme is about how vital the power of Connection is....of forging bonds not for the sake of keeping Oaths but with the aim to actually change for the better, to make those oaths MEAN something, a Connection intended to build upon rather than simply exist for its own sake.....this is a crucial component in a quest TO improve for the better. Connection might not be a Shard of divine power or Intent in and of itself.....but its nevertheless a fundamental cornerstone of the cosmere and its many magics and people. And as a Bondsmith, he learned how the more people he brings together, the more different individualized experiences and goals and yes...INTENTS....are bound together with strong Connections that benefit them all, that all are equally Invested in.....the better the future that can be made for everyone. The better that everyone's needs can be met, their circumstances improved upon. Its certainly been speculated before, that this is an endgoal of certain characters, and I think there's arguments to be made about which characters actually have this specific endgoal and which are aiming for others....but Dalinar I believe at this point had the true endgoal of unifying ALL the Shards in the distant future. I believe his gambit is actually meant to slowburn a future in which as the cosmere increasingly descends into chaos, war and conflict between Shardworlds.....more and more of the Shards - even those who right NOW might be heavily against the idea of fusing with other Shards or reforming (or creating a new version) of the very force/being they once agreed NEEDED to be Shattered - might look to Dalinar's case study of Honor + Odium = Retribution and realize the necessity of it. Because Odium, no matter how much Rayse might have WANTED to be Passion....was at the end of the day still a singular Shattered Intent of Ado. One sixteenth of him bereft of anything to contextualize that singular Intent. This also plays into my belief that the four Dawnshards are Exist (make things be), Weigh (make things matter), Move (make things move) and Change (make things change). Two fundamental forces that are about the base matter of things, the inherent potential (Exist) and the capacity for deeper meaning, to bind existence to something more or greater than just the mere substance of itself, or bind pieces of existence to each other in order that THEY can contextualize each other in ways that make them more than they are singularly (Weigh)....and two that are about the energy of things, the capacity for things to advance from the point of their initial creation or their initial stance, go somewhere beyond where they first exist or how much they matter INITIALLY....the base instruction to put things that Exist and Weigh into motion (Move), make them go, make them DO things other than just BE....and the potential for the interactions of these things to make alterations to their initial states so they can transform into other or more than they initially were (Change) and thus all combine to let the cosmere, let creation, grow beyond what it was initially conceived as....and thereby see what everything you commanded to just Be....can now in turn Become. I've always believed in the idea that the sixteen Shards correlate four to the four Dawnshards. That each Primal Command has four associated Shards that are not smaller components of that Command itself....but rather that because the Dawnshards were used as a weapon to kill Ado/Shatter him into the Shards.....each has four Shards that are DERIVED from the impact of one of those four Commands being weaponized against the Creator. I think there's an impression of the Shattering having been the result of ONE impact from the weapon the original Vessels wielded against Ado....but I think it was four simultaneous impacts, from each of the Dawnshards being hurled as a Primal Command against Ado at the same time. Brandon's always said that Ado could have Shattered into different Intents than the Shards we actually got. Its been suggested that the original Vessels themselves had SOMETHING to do with what sixteen Intents it Shattered into, not necessarily deliberately but with the original natures of Ado's killers playing a focusing role in where the "lines" defining the edges of each Shardic Intent ended up drawn. But I think it wasn't just that....it also had to do with who wielded each Dawnshard. If different individuals had been using different Dawnshards, even with all the same players involved, the Shattering could have still resulted in different Shardic Intents. The combination of who wielded which Command had to do with where each Dawnshard impacted the initial whole of Ado/Adonalsium....and the sixteen initial Vessels who stepped forward to claim all that suddenly fractured power focused the sixteen Shards it stabilized as into the specific Intents we ended up with. And so the four groups of four IMO aren't about which Shards are a smaller Aspect or kind of Aspect of the four Dawnshards....they're about which Shards are the RESULT of which Dawnshard creating a fracture line within Adonalsium, Shattering it into four smaller Shards along each of those fracture lines. The relevance I'm going for comes from picturing it this way: The Dawnshards are Primal Commands, most likely meant to be used in concert to create. First you Command something to Exist, to simply spring into being. Then you Command that Existence to have Weight, have meaning, have purpose, then you Command that Purposeful Existence to Move, to act, to do something, anything, and then you Command that Purposeful and Moving Existence to Change, to have all those ingredients combine to take that which was Created and let it continuously become something new, something more or just other than it was initially Created to be. These Primal Commands are powerful enough that they can even be used to Command the cosmere God, the initial Creator. Somewhat tangentially, its long been said that one of these Commands can be used to destroy, even though they're the power of creation, essentially. I believe this Dawnshard is Change - even though its explicitly been stated that Change is a Primal Command to remake something in a positive way....absent of any other context, used just on itself without any of the other Dawnshards, Change does effectively destroy something by the very act of remaking it. It might still exist, but the thing it previously existed as, the way it previously existed, is now destroyed. Even if Change was used on its own against Adonalsium, it would have remade it, likely for the better....but the being that was originally Ado or Adonalsium, pre-Change, would still be destroyed in a sense. The reason Change alone wasn't used against Ado/Adonalsium IMO is because they didn't just want it to be better if it meant it would still be its full, total power just in another form or state.....if the reason they wanted to kill Ado was because they didn't want all that power in the hands of one being. For that, they needed the power to be divided into smaller pieces and put in multiple hands. Change alone wasn't going to address the problem. We also have the problem that Exist CAN'T be used to destroy. Its not a matter of whether its being wielded by a mortal or a deity....the very nature of the Command means that it can't be used to negate, kill, make something NOT exist. For the record, while Change is I think the Dawnshard noted for being able to destroy, I think Exist is the one that is supposed to be distinct from the other three. Because it's essentially a Passive Command. Its necessary for pieces of Creation to Be so that the other three can act UPON those pieces and actually, well, create....making it the bedrock of the cosmere. But whether you call the Dawnshard known to bind all creatures "Weigh" or "Connect" or "Have Meaning" or "Be Purposeful"....its still an Active Command that acts UPON whatever Exists....just as Move and Change do. Regardless, the point is the Dawnshards are Primal Commands that were powerful enough to even affect the Creator, and somehow used to kill him. How? I think it was exactly as simple as it sounds: Rather than being used as part of a PROCESS to Create....they were used to Command Adonalsium to do four fundamentally different things ALL AT THE SAME TIME. And the act of trying to fulfill all four of those Commands simultaneously is what Shattered Adonalsium along four fracture lines, subdividing from there into four groups of four Shards that each in their own way, by their own Intent, tried to carry out what the Dawnshards Commanded. And so there are four Shards that encompass a piece of Adonalsium's innate nature, some inherent potential within him, fundamental to his Existence: A capacity for divine wrath or hatred (Odium). The potential for well-thought through deliberations (Reason). Natural artistic spirit (Virtuosity). A well of courage in the face of adversity (Valor). These are four pieces of Adonalsium that Exist, regardless of any outside contexts. They can be the source of actions, drive particular pursuits, but they do not require anything else TO Exist, other than a Command to just Be. Then there are four Shards that are the fractured results of Adonalsium's attempt to fulfill a Primal Command to Weigh/Connect/Bind. A Command that requires something reach beyond itself TO something else....and forge a kind of connection, lashing, a grounding....to something other than what it itself already Exists AS: One's ability to adhere to an Oath or code of conduct, a specific standard or ideal (Honor). One's desire to direct focus to some specific individual, cause, pursuit and make it the entirety of your existence (Devotion). One's desire to connect all things beneath one's own oversight, to completely govern how one connects to all other things and how other things connect in turn, the desire to master others, skills, oneself (Dominion). One's capacity to connect to someone or something from a higher state within a specific power imbalance or dynamic, to Exist as having power over something else, whether innate or situational, and withhold from wielding that greater power or advantage as fully or negatively as they theoretically could (Mercy). These are four pieces of Adonalsium that REQUIRE context to something else in order to have actual meaning or form. Mercy is relative to the person or thing one is being merciful towards, the situation, the power differential...all of that shapes and defines a specific Connection or Binding between One With Power and One Without Power. Honor can not exist in a vacuum, it needs a standard to be compared to in order to determine if one is actually BEING Honorable or not. Devotion similarly demands a focal object that you be devoted to, a specific connection, and Dominion is all about bringing things under your mastery, be it in the abstract or in violent conquest. Then there are four Shards that are the fractured results of Adonalsium's attempt to fulfill a Primal Command to Move. A Command to somehow or in some way go from a Point A to Point B. It demands a trajectory, though not necessarily a specific trajectory. You can not obey this Command without going in a direction, any direction: A self-determined direction (Autonomy). A net end-negative direction (Ruin). A direction towards a specific goal (Ambition). A direction bereft of planning or calculation, the divine urge to Move or Move Things but not towards a specific goal but rather according to the randomness of chance (Whimsy). These are pieces of the Primal Mover that embody all the things inherent within Adonalsium that governed how he might WANT to move himself or parts of creation. Autonomously, towards Ruin, with Ambition, or according to Whimsy. Notably, the Change Dawnshard is spoken about having an implicit subcommand of positive (or additive, theoretically) Change. Move however, can result in actions that lead in any direction, not just forward-facing trajectories or progress. Thus Shards that have the capacity for regression have to (IMO) be the result of Adonalsium's attempt to fulfill a directive to Move, rather than Change. Ruin is a form of change, but entropic change only. It CAN'T be additive Change. But it still Moves. Finally we have the four Shards that are the fractured results of Adonalsium's attempt to fulfill the Primal Command to Change. Which again, is specifically denoted as a positive remaking or advancement....it has a specific direction through time as well as space. The intention of adding or bequeathing gifts, power, or something else to an individual, system or society that by its very addition induces change (Endowment). The application of a spark of genius or innovation to base materials or ideas that remake the sum of these parts into something new or useful (Invention). The careful planning or nourishing of things, civilizations, ideas over time in order to foster or encourage growth (Cultivation). The choice to use added energy or resources to induce Change that combats negative change or movement (Preservation). That last one will likely be the most controversial of my alignments, and it is admittedly the one I'm least confident about. THEORETICALLY, Whimsy and Preservation might be swapped. My reasoning for it being this way is Preservation, despite being associated with stagnation due to its opposition to Ruin.....is not something inherent or something that CAN just Exist. Its a maintaining of Existing Bindings or Connections as they already are, but not a response to a directive to Bind....and it has a direction/trajectory that is directly oppositional to entropic decay of a system....but ultimately, its an action. An application of energy, resources, Investiture aimed at constant refreshment or Change FROM any onset of entropy or Ruin....the inherent remaking of the process of unmaking. The divine urge to look at a longterm plan for entropy, decay or ruin, natural pre-planned trajectories, and ACTIVELY decide instead to work or apply the Intent to keep things as they are, even if just a little longer. You can not preserve things in a vacuum, because the very act of preservation requires additions to maintain. (Again, this one is the weakest. I'm confident Preservation belongs under Move or Change, but it being under Change has as much to do with thinking Whimsy - which is not inherently a positive directed Change as whimsies can be negative, regressive or destructive - belongs under Move). Anyway. To bring this all back to the thread topic, and make a case for why I don't think this long-winded essay was just thread-drift: I think Dalinar's longterm aim is not to make Honor better in and of himself, as a singular Shard....but to over time make a case to the other Shards that no matter the initial intentions behind the Shattering.....the individual Shards are worse off for not having each other as context that further focuses or reframes their singular Intents. As destructive or regressive as Retribution CAN be.....Odium will ALWAYS be worse on his own....because Odium is one of the Shards of Adonalsium that CAN NOT do anything other than Exist. It CANT ever be more than that on its own....because no matter how badly Rayse might have wanted to reframe or focus his Intent as Passion instead.....Odium is the result of Adonalsium trying to obey the Primal Command to Exist....and so Odium, alone, will always ONLY ever Exist as exactly what it sprang into being as. The whole reason there are four Dawnshards is the Exist Dawnshard can not create a capacity for anything it Commands to Exist to ever Move, Change or Bind/Connect/Matter beyond that base state of Existence. The ONLY thing that can alter the base nature of Odium - pure, undiluted, divine wrath or hatred bereft of all meaning, all direction, any attempt to change - the ONLY thing that can ever reframe or focus it to any degree, mitigate its danger in ANY way....is the addition of an external catalyst....a second Shard whose Intent can combine with Odium's own and thus shift the margins delineating the shape and form of those Shards, where one ends and the other begins. Whether Rayse ever knew it or not, IMO, the reason Odium was so opposed to fusing or combining with any other Shards, adding their power to his own....is on a fundamental, primal level, the level at which Odium is still ultimately a finite piece of Adonalsium forever driven by the Primal Command that is the reason it exists.....the addition of any Shard's power would inevitably bring the addition of at least some of that Shard's Intent....and the addition of ANY Intent outside of Odium....will inevitably reshape Odium in some ways. Alter, even to the tiniest degrees, the way in which Odium already Exists. In a universe where Investiture is akin to matter and energy that can neither be created nor destroyed....the only way to ultimately combat or negate the threat of Investiture that is pure, unreasoning, uncompromising, primordial hatred for everything else....is to change the NATURE of that Investiture. And the only way to do that will always be limited to the addition of another Shardic Intent. The mere act of combining Odium (which Exists absent all else) with Honor (a fulfillment of the prime directive of binding to things outside of itself and thereby give Meaning to that which Exists)....forces that uncompromising divine hatred to be focused by a demand that something merit that hatred, deserve its wrath. Transforming both into divine vengeance. Retribution. Something that is still dangerous in and of itself, arguably even moreso as it has less of Odium & Honor's limitations much in the way Harmony lacks some of Ruin & Preservation's.....but which can be further recontextualized by the addition of another Shard that brings more refinement. For instance.....a Shard that previously has hid itself away in order to survive and is only now determining that this isn't the best approach, might look at the end results of this merging and Reason that the best path forward is not to focus on its own survival, but combine with Retribution and thereby turn its focus to Justice. Divine wrath and reason both bound together by honor. Much like I suspect Harmony's hinted at imbalance might result in him becoming Discord in Mistborn Era 3....becoming another threat that can only effectively be combated by being merged with enough splinters of Autonomy that he becomes Balance, the self-regulation of dueling aspects of one's own nature. Even if many of the Shards are currently governed more by self interest and not remotely interested in fusing with each other, ultimately I think THAT is Dalinar's final move. The importance of Connection as a Bondsmith leading him to realize the best thing for the cosmere is to convince as many of the Shards as possible that they have to turn their focus to determining what Connections they can make with each other or some of the worst or most destructive Shards in order to not recreate Adonalsium, but create new or larger wholes that are more deliberate combinations of the pieces it Shattered into in ways that won't necessarily just reconstitute the original picture as it looked when they Shattered Adonalsium....but create a new whole that is the sum of themselves, stitched into a brand new tapestry formed of their singular Threads of Intent.