Firesong

This just made me think of like, is it possible for a Shard to be deeply corrupted to the point they are just an Anti-Shard of sort, like, Odium becomes 100% Anti-Voidlight. I wonder what such a Shard would be like, and if their Intent might manifest differently. And like, would Preservation + Anti-Ruin be different from what we get with Harmony? Makes one wonder.

We also know that Adonalsium's number is 42 (joke, of course)

Yeah, it would make sense if there wasn't anything. Just wanted to ask. Btw, really gonna be looking forward to the Spoiler Stream for Yumi (if we get one), that one would definitely be juicy.

To be entirely fair, we haven't seen much about Cultivation, Devotion, Dominion, etc. The numbers for Devotion and Dominion are likely gonna show up in Elantris 2 and 3.

They really interest me though, I want to learn more about them and their motives. They seem like they are one of the big bads of the cosmere at large. At least until the end of Era 3. Especially interesting is why she is spreading like she is, and how she makes Perpendicularities the way they do. also no comment on my interpretation?

Hmm, I see. Whimsy might be change, with erratic changes and not keeping to plans (as it was mentioned Whimsy is bad with plans). Endowment being creation could make sense, with how important art is on Nalthis, and how prone to taking on awareness Breath is. The entire system of Awakening is basically about creating life, in a sense. And also, I do feel that Ambition and Whimsy are definitely quite opposite, Ambition would be more about plans and goals, Whimsy is against both. Much like how Ruin and Cultivation are basically opposites. It matches the Allomancy Table theory, Ruin and Cultivation are more external ideas, and can be seen as Pushing and Pulling. Ambiton and Whimsy seem more internal, and are also opposites. Virtuosity and Invention I already mentioned are basically opposites. But not sure how Endowment would be an Internal version of that set. Even if Endowment seems like it fits. Odium is emotion in general (we see it when Dalinar sees Odium itself in OB, and it was everything. I feel that the Hatred aspect is about the all-consuming nature of hatred mixed with the nature of Rayse. We do see repeatedly throughout the series how much hatred can consume everything to the point of killing all other emotions. I can go into this whole thing in another thread, I have a lot on that). So Feel would fit it. Autonomy might be feel, as it was about individuality and the differences between people, but the manifestation through Bavadin is just really weird. As Autonomy talks about themselves a lot, and are about individuality, I feel that is more Internal) I feel Devotion would go in Bind. Which would make it into another set of opposite ideas that ultimately go together. Matching the pattern I am seeing. Preservation and Dominion actually seem to be the pair, as both are about trying to create stability and keep the status quo. And Preservation really loved Empires as Leras. Devotion and Honor are both about following laws and commands. I feel that those are internal, about what one does to oneself through will. While Preservation and Dominion force it upon others, external. I would say secondary links would be like, Ruin-Whimsy, as lack of plans and doing whatever you feel like tends to hurt yourself and others and cause ruination, doesn't tend to cause growth. While ambition can cause growth, be it good or bad, like Cultivation. Thus those would be linked. Maybe Endowment-Virtuosity due to links to art and colour. Devotion-Dominion wouldn't be right for a secondary link, as those are basically opposites. Preservation-Devotion would fit, as Devotion to the Status Quo would bring about a lack of change in it, they are kinda intrinsically linked ideas. Thus you then have Dominion and Honor, where Dominion kinda requires law and the like in order to remain and have meaning. So Very vague and doesn't all fit, but I feel like I am getting somewhere.

I have now convinced myself that Ambition fits into Change. So we have Three Change Shards. So, I wonder what the 4th Change would be. That one is tricky. I have no clue what Valour's Intent would be. All of the other Shards are pretty clear in what they stand for. (Except for Autonomy, but she is weird and hypocritical in general). Whimsy is also a bit hard to think up, maybe just does whatever they want. I can imagine some sort of trickster god, but less conniving and clever. So, we (or at least I) can't easily think up what Valour would be Intent wise. But I don't see how this would line up with Intents, as it is literally just being brave. So, I am curious about them. I can definitely imagine a Shardworld under them probably being a world that really respects bravery, so would probably like soldiers, adventurers, daredevils, stuntsmen, mountain climbers, etc. But in terms of what the actually Intent would be, not entirely sure.

Okay, checked 7 Days per Pulse from Ridos 7 Levels of Lak 7 Ranks of Sand Master The Ars Arcanum shows 7 types of Sandling The Ars Arcanum on Sand Recharging shows 7 states of charge Probably a coincidence, but Autonomy encroaching on Scadrial is mentioned on Chapter 28 Epigraph of RoW, which is 7 * 4, and 4 is important in the Cosmere and on Taldain. On Taldain it takes 4 hours to fully charge sand, iirc. Probably enough coincidence, her name is 7 letters. Separate theory, but I feel Invention and Virtuosity are probably meant to be near-opposites of each other, like a lot of other near-opposite Shards. Invention implies practicality and science (therefore, limitations and rules), while Virtuosity implies artistry, and the cosmere is wont to point out how art is inherently useless, and that is the point. Brandon has said outside of the books that this is a philosophy he really likes and gets behind. So, I feel they are basically set up as opposite approaches to the concept of creation. the practical Invention, and the whimsical Virtuosity. A link can also probably be drawn between Whimsy and Virtuosity as well. Ruin and Cultivation are Change. Ambition also fits with the idea of change, but less directly, it is more like, ambition is typically tied with an ambition to make some sort of change, be it in the world, or in one's personal life. Honor, Dominion, Preservation, and Devotion all relate to rules and stability in some way. Autonomy, Whimsy, and Virtuosity are basically about individuality. Virtuosity and Invention are two sides of creation

I had a theory that one reason he is worried is due to Obrodai maybe being their world, given a few factors (went into that in the thread On Obrodai). But that definitely isn't proven. It definitely could be Mercy being violent, given everything shown in the linked thread showing mercy as being more associated with mercy killings than anything else in the cosmere. Especially with all the uses in Rhythm of War, where Mercy was first mentioned, being primarily associated with killing or locking away the mentally ill (because Roshar is definitely extremely backwards in how it treats mental health). So, that, mixed with how Mercy was fighting for or against Ambition, maybe they did fight against Ambition. It does seem multiple people had problems with her, ""As for Uli Da, it was obvious from the outset that she was going to be a problem. Good riddance.", there is also the fact it was a three way battle that Odium survived, and Ambition was killed. But, why is Mercy still alive if they were on Ambition's side? Makes it feel as if they were on Odium's side. Maybe they see the concept of Intent and Immortality to be some form of torture, and wanted to free Vessels from it.

So we only have 1 thing on Livestream 57, is this due to the fact that there was only one thing of significance to the Coppermind, or is it just because nobody has sat down to work on recording it all? I am just asking as I don't really have the time or attention span to personally sit through it all to find any information, especially given that it could very likely just have nothing. So, yeah, is it just a thing about lack of info or just nobody getting to it yet?

Spoiler that last part, while this is Cosmere Spoilers, it is published spoilers. Mark it as an SP4 spoiler.

I think that White Sand just is an Aether that Autonomy corrupted, personally. White Sand acts the same as a lot of Aethers, it is introduced to water and then pulls on Investiture to make something happen, we know there is a microorganism on the Sand which causes it to do this; I think this microorganism is some sort of corrupted Aether. And on Brandon misleading us, yeah, totally possible. But he was explicit several times it is a planet, while with things like Vax he is careful and only says "place", which can mean basically anything. So I feel there is some significance there.

Preservation 16 Honor 10 Odium 9 Autonomy: 7 (I recall 7 showing up a lot in the Ars Arcanum of White Sand (in the Omnibus)) Virtuosity: 13 (Brandon said it being 13 is a good theory, and we see 13 show up a lot in the book) Endowment: 5 (5 scholars, Returned are Fifth Heightening, etc) Aethers: 12 (Not a Shard, but they are very connected to 12, so thought I would mention that) Dawnshards: 4 (Same reasoning for inclusion as Aethers) For things that are far more of an assumption Ambition: 3 (3 Simple Rules) Cultivation: 3 (?) (She appeared to 3 known people to give them a Boon and Bane herself, Lift aging stopped 3 years before the story (iirc)) My Cultivation and Ambition theories have far less weight than ones on the others. `

I don't really see how they look like Axolotls, personally, at least not in how I imagine them. I think of Sho Del having a lot of hair, which is just flat and broad like grass (as it is described), not really the same as axolotl gills.

While that is possible, I have basically completely convinced myself it is a world associated with one of those three Shards. It is most likely not the Aether Homeworld, at least, the name just, doesn't fit with the linguistics we have for it. From everything we have seen, it avoids dipthongs and digraphs (outside of reduplication or long vowels). But might be another random Aether world.

I actually cited something that explicitly stated that Obrodai is a planet, and cited the WoB. and this Which actually implies it isn't Sel, so would make it likely down to Whimsy, Invention, or Mercy.

I personally have come to think that Obrodai is likely a major Shardworld, with a Shard present. Due to a few reasons. Hoid had reason to go to the planet, and he usually goes to planets that have a Shard present, unless there is something special about the planet This is further supported by the way in which she speaks of the idea of him returning to the planet, which suggests that there is something very important about it that would attract his attention. Enough that they have to actively ask him not to come again. Patji told him to "not return", which suggests he has been there before (probably a lot, reading between the lines of the letter), implies it has a Perpendicularity, which normally requires a Shard. Brandon has actively called it a Shardworld (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/260/#e8750) The most major Avatar of Autonomy we have seen were Trell and Telsin, which were made as a way to try and hijack Scadrial. This might be another attempt to hijack another planet from a Shard. The Letter said "You should not return to Obrodai. We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there." Which implies that this was not a Perpendicularity created by Autonomy or their Avatar, as Hoid would have been aware of this if it was, and they would know he is aware, and thus not feel a need to inform him like that. "You have spoken to one who cannot respond. We, instead, will take your communication to us--though we know not how you located us upon this world... We are indeed intrigued, for we thought it well hidden. Insignificant among our many realms." This shows that they have a particular view on the First of the Sun for its insignificance, related to the lack of a Shard or splinters thereof (not including Patji), but does not appear to think the same of Obrodai. They state their claim of it matter-of-factly, as if it were an obvious fact, a given. Brandon is very defensive about what Obrodai is, avoiding basically all questions surrounding it (RAFOs everywhere), which makes it feel as if it is something of significant importance. Something of such importance to cause him to be so defensive likely wouldn't be a random world that Autonomy decided to make Avatars on. In conclusion, Obrodai is likely a planet attended to by a Shard. On what Shard that may be It is not Scadrial, for while a female Avatar began to form in the same relative timeframe (in the span of the Cosmere), Harmony spoke of Telsin becoming one as if it were extremely recent, and there was no obvious sign of it happening by the time of Bands of Mourning, which happens years after Oathbringer. She also did not display the "intense and overpowering dislike of [Hoid]". All of these factors disqualify it. Thus, it is not connected to Ruin, Preservation, or Harmony "Endowment at least responded to my overtures, though I have not been able to locate Invention again following our initial contact.", this could suggest that after their first contact, Autonomy began to form an Avatar causing Invention to flee, which would explain the difficulty in locating them. "Whimsy was not terribly useful, and Mercy worries me. I do think that Valor is reasonable, and suggest you approach her again. It has been too long, in her estimation, since your last conversation.", while the comment about Whimsy makes sense with what little we know and what we can assume, the "Mercy worries me" I find particularly notable, given how Harmony was also dealing with the encroachment of Autonomy and their Avatars, so perhaps in his communications with Mercy he learned of something similar happening to them. The Intent of Mercy would also likely make it easier for Autonomy to put an Avatar there with little resistance. The idea of it being Mercy could be further supported by the fact that the Epigraph right after mentioning Ambition, Mercy, and Odium clashing went into "Other Shards I cannot identify, and are hidden to me. I fear that their influence encroaches upon my world, yet I am locked into a strange inability because of the opposed powers I hold.", instantly going to speak about Autonomy invading Scadrial. Which isn't undeniable evidence, but I find that it does create some form of connection between Ambition, Mercy, and Autonomy. My ideas on why it wouldn't be Threnody and Ambition can be found at point 9. "This is all we will say at this time. If you wish more, seek these waters in person and overcome the tests we have created.", I doubt Patji would request that Hoid return to First of the Sun if Obrodai was another one of the inhabited planets in the system, they likely wouldn't want him to get that close to it. Thus it is likely not Second, Third, or Fourth. This is furthered by their surprise at being found in the system, and their knowledge (and lack of suprise) that he knows of Obrodai. It is definitely not Taldain, given Autonomy was already pretty openly hostile to people going to Taldain, and I see no reason she wouldn't just call it Taldain as that is the name used on the planet itself (and it is hers), and she also wouldn't really talk about it as if she just made claim on it. "Did you expect anything else from us? We need not suffer the interference of another. Rayse is contained, and we care not for his prison." -Patji, this implies that they care not for the Rosharan system. Thus the Rosharan system is out, and thus it is not Honor, Odium, or Cultivation that the planet is connected to. Endowment spoke very aggressively about intrusion on territory by other Shards, and gave names and implied other situations (basically, Sel and Roshar), though she said nothing about Autonomy. This would likely not be her not noticing, as she displays that she is very good at noticing intrusions ""I noticed its arrival immediately, just as I noticed your many intrusions into my land.", thus, I feel if she was being invaded by an Avatar, she would have noticed and mentioned it in her short harangue about Shardic invasions. Threnody is hard enough to enter and lacks of stable Perpendicularity, it also seems way too dangerous for Autonomy to be interested, and provides no clear benefit. I also see no reason why Hoid would want to return to Threnody enough to warrant a direct demand not to, and protocols in place to make sure he doesn't. So I doubt it is Threnody. I don't think it would be Valor, the communication between him and Patji seemed to imply he had been to Obrodai relatively recently, and with Valor " I do think that Valor is reasonable, and suggest you approach her again. It has been too long, in her estimation, since your last conversation.", which, while possible he had been to her planet not long ago and just not spoken to her, it feels more like he just hasn't even been near her in a while. Which would make it unlikely that her planet is Obrodai. It could potentially by Elantris, due to how Hoid is quite desperate to get AonDor (and continued to try for a long time even after Stormlight, see, Tress). This is somewhat supported thematically with how much relevance Sel has to The Lost Metal, where Autonomy gains a lot of relevance. We have Shai and Kaise, Forgery playing a prominent role, and Fion is maybe Fjon. This could suggest (on a meta level) that she was making an Avatar on Sel. The desire to get AonDor would also give Hoid a reason to return to the planet in question. It being a planet we know would also give Brandon a reason to say "RAFO" whenever asked if we have seen Obrodai before (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173/#e8599). In conclusion, it is not Scadrial, Roshar, Braize, Ashyn, Taldain, Threnody, or anything in the Drominad System. And the planet is not associated with Ruin, Preservation, Honor, Odium, Cultivation, Autonomy, Ambition, Valor, or Endowment. Thus it is likely tied to Whimsy, Invention, or Mercy. It may also be tied to the Dor and Sel. I lean closer to Invention, Mercy, or Sel. Whimsy I don't feel we have enough on. Think this is all I can theorize on at the moment, please give feedback on my theory and add your own ideas.

Well, we don't fully know how his altering states would work now that he is a Vessel. I am of the opinion it was probably washed away entirely when he became Odium. So he is probably just logical now. I assume logical as that fits more with what (little) we have seen of Todium, and that would also lead him more towards his goals. But, he could still flip around, that is still a definite possibility. We just, don't really have any answers at the moment.

I discussed this in another thread, in the Cosmere Spoilers version of this collection of threads. I feel this is a pretty solid idea of what happened in the end, taking into account all of the worldbuilding throughout the book, Cosmere mechanics, and foreshadowing in the book to come to a solution.

Another factor in this, is that they wouldn't really be able to access Malatium at all. It was only made a few times (as far as we know), and it inherently required atium, something they completely and utterly lost access too after the Catacendre (and already basically lost access too after the destruction of the Pits of Hathsin). So, it isn't exactly something they can easily access, nor was it a pure God Metal. Which is another reason for it vanishing from tables.

I apologize, but I do not understand what you mean to say. Can you please try to reword that? And yes, Scadrian Humans are Invested with both Shards, not just one.

No, not really, as far as we understand it, the humans from Ashyn (that world they came from) were not created by a Shard. Again, Scadrial is a very specific circumstance, that doesn't reflect how things went through the rest of the cosmere. Humans actually predate the Shattering (that which created Shards) in its entirety, Preservation and Ruin created their own "species" of humans based upon those original humans, on a planet of their own creation.

It is Investiture in general that gives sentience, not specifically that of Preservation. Preservation is just the most important one in regards to the sentience of Scadrians, given they were created by him. The citation provided is talking about "all humans" in regards to "all Scadrian humans", instead of "all humans across the Cosmere"

Well, one reason is that Scadrial was created directly by and completely suffused with the being of Ruin and Preservation, they were a pretty special case amongst Shards with what they did there. That is a large part of why they had so much direct influence over the planet, as it was essentially their own body. On if Rosharan Shards can see metal, we do not know as we have far less on Cultivation and Honor, and Odium was taking more of a seat as a General behind the scenes, taking far less of a direct role than Ruin.

Nice, some of the stuff I wrote! : ) Extra note on this, while this is what I got from putting in the formulae, it actually is supported in the books, as somewhere in The Lost Metal it does actually talk about when you reduce mass too much, drag starts to slow you down. Think it was when Wax was chasing someone in Chapter 25, but I may be wrong. And as what people said before, even if you could increase to absurd levels of velocity via this, they do still have to look at the effects wind resistance has on the body at very high velocities. Windrunners can go close to the speed of sound at their highest extent due to the fact their powers basically lessen the effect around them, but even this has its limits (Oathbringer Chapter 60, Rhythm of War Chapter 9, Rhythm of War Chapter 111). It is like what Brandon said about Steelrunners: So, while it is really good at increasing and decreasing ones velocity, and helping one do some pretty strong steelpushes, it does have limitations that prevent it from becoming as powerful as you (Original Poster) presume. Hope this helps.