Returned

Welcome! I look forward to reading your work here.

We don't even really know that Renarin's use of Truthwatcher surges is different from what regular mist spren grant. The only explicit description of the Truthwatcher order is that "their [Truthwatchers'] order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did" (WoR, chapter 52, epigraph). Though, tantalizingly, in one of the gem drawers in Urithiru a record says "I foresaw this." (Oathbringer, chapter 85, epigraph). It's not clear that this describes a surge-fueled vision of the future versus mundane analysis, or even that the record was left by a Truthwatcher. But maybe the future sight is still in some way tied to the order without the need for Sja Anat's enlightenment.

Thanks! I'd glossed over the "same, but reversed" line. It's definitely clear enough in Odium getting what he (presumably still) wants in leaving the Rosharan system. Though for my money, I still don't think that the contest will take place. With all of the shenanigans around fiddling with Hoid's memory it seems more likely to me that Odium will convince enough influential people that some sort of side-deal is worth making which will obviate the contest. I suggested in another thread that the Shard of Odium will be mixed with some other Shard (Honor is my best guess), which might be enough to get around the restrictions Honor placed on Odium anyways. Even if it does come to the contest after all, I don't think that it will be called off due to some champion that Dalinar (or his champion) won't want to fight. The people on Dalinar's side are generally too aligned with Honor, and too focused on restraining Odium, to not make the sacrifice if it came to that-- not to mention the influence of their Radiant bonds that push them to do things they find difficult. But it's all guesswork at this point, and I'm excited to find out what happens! Next year...

If you have it handy or have time, could you provide a quote or citation? I just went through the part of RoW where Dalinar and Odium discuss this and don't remember that bit. But I could easily have missed it, or it might be described somewhere else. In any case, we seem to agree that just going forward with the contest of champions is not what Odium wants, and probably not the tactic he will pursue. It makes sense on both sides: Odium wants to be free of the Rosharan system, which a victory for his champion doesn't directly help, and Odium withdrawing for a thousand years still leaves humans and sympathetic Listeners to deal with immortal Fused and the Everstorm. Neither can quite get what they want or need from the contest. Even if they do go forward with it the contest won't really be a conclusion for anyone. I don't think that Adolin was specifically opposed to Rayse (or even knew who Rayse was), but he does seem opposed to Odium generally and sides with Honor. He's been consistently committed to honorable behavior, even when it seems unhelpful or dangerous for him. Examples include saving Notum from murder against very difficult odds, and then encouraging Notum to just be honest even while Notum betrays him at the trial. Aside from coming to terms with his murder of Sadeas, Adolin doesn't really seem in favor of hatred. It's an interesting parallel I hadn't considered that coping with Dalinar's murderous behaviors may seem similar (to Adolin) to Taravangian's choices, and if Odium has a way to persuade Adolin that might be the route to start with. My issue is really that I don't see Adolin agreeing with Odium, changing his mind and character over the course of just ten days, to the point that he would agree to become his champion. And even if he were somehow maneuvered into being Odium's champion, I think that he would choose to die (or otherwise throw the fight) rather than help Odium to win. Further, no one but Cultivation even knows that Rayse is gone and Taravangian has ascended, and so far Taravangian seems to be working to maintain that ignorance.

I think that your analysis is correct in that following the agreement by its most direct, obvious interpretation isn't a good deal for Odium. But that just means that he won't use that interpretation; the move is to cause Dalinar's champion (whoever it is) to choose not to fight one way or another, or to shift the contest away from something where Dalinar's champion would have any sort of advantage or even capacity to win. Left unsaid in the negotiation is what happens if Dalinar's side breaks the agreement, an outcome he (Dalinar) never seemed to consider. Odium still has lots of choices to influence whom Dalinar chooses as his champion, and Odium has lots of options about how to manipulate or otherwise defeat anyone Dalinar chooses. Odium has effectively infinite power and time, and far more knowledge of the future than his opponents. Especially given our meta knowledge of what the future holds for upcoming books both in Stormlight and the Cosmere more broadly I think that the worst possible bet is that the contest of champions will be as straightforward as Dalinar is thinking, with no twists or surprises. The least likely outcome is two people fighting in a decisive, direct contest like a duel. The contest will be something else, maybe like when Kaladin was torn between two oaths in WoR (one to Dalinar/Syl, one to Moash and the assassins). I predict basically zero chance that the next book covers only the prescribed ten day span and ends in a swordfight. I don't think that it will be a matchup with Adolin on Odium's side; he would choose to throw the fight and die rather than let Odium win on Roshar and inflict him on the rest of the Cosmere. Perhaps it will be something in which "winning" doesn't matter so much for Roshar's humans, like succeeding in the contest but in a way that shatters a bond (to the Stormfather?), pushing Odium back but leaving humans on Roshar more vulnerable than ever to the wrath of the Everstorm and its denizens. Or both Dalinar and Odium choosing the same person as champion and forcing them to struggle with themselves, or possibly a Radiant vs. their spren. Maybe another threat will appear and will persuade Dalinar to abandon or otherwise obviate the contest, or Odium will persuasively present something along those lines. Maybe Odium will choose someone who can't appear on Roshar, like Thaidakar, who also might not be able to lose a duel as we imagine? What are most suggestive to me are the epigrams in RoW ascribed to El. The final ten days seem likely to be the ten days leading up to the duel. Parsh and humans fighting together against some other, unknown threat? Something bigger is brewing, and I submit that the contest of champions either won't take place at all or will be swept up in other events to such a degree that it isn't even remotely decisive on Roshar or anywhere else. In any case, the nominal deal Dalinar struck with Rayse will be made irrelevant.

I don't think so, at least not in the way you're probably thinking. I think it is too strong to suggest that Lifelight and ordinary metabolism are the same thing in general, though maybe for a physical being that exists partially in both the physical and cognitive reals maybe things would be different. Lift's Lifelight isn't just her ordinary metabolism but a weird ability that lets her metabolize food into Lifelight. We haven't seen anyone else on Roshar able to generate any form of Investiture just from eating. That said, stabbing a living thing is generally not great for it. And if the living thing in question were especially permeated with Cultivation's essence the effect might be closer to what you describe.

Welcome!

I'm not sure that the arguments I laid out suggest that there isn't free will in the Cosmere... that's certainly contrary to my intent. Reliable predictability doesn't automatically imply a lack of free will. To be clear, a lack of free will would also explain reliable predictability, but it isn't necessarily the only thing that would. As of now we've only seen perfectly accurate predictions over a very, very short period of time; specifically, through Allomantically burning atium. If the future is unalterably written then necessarily whatever happens was fated to happen. But the reverse perspective, that one sequence of events happened when others were possible, isn't evidence that that sequence was predestined or guaranteed. It's not that I'm saying that Cosmere fatalism is definitely wrong, but rather that evidence for that conclusion is thin. Since the only figures we've seen try to see the farther future have had their plans not go as well as they'd probably have liked, and we know that visions of the future are subject to interference, I think the evidence for free will is stronger than the opposite. If the truth is that it's all predestined then obviously that's true regardless of the evidence we've seen, but the case I see you presenting looks tautological to me. Again, not necessarily wrong, but to me unpersuasive. I suppose we'll learn a lot more as more books are released!

Thank you! Sneaky.

Which video are people finding the new prologue in? Or is it tied to the Kickstarter?

If in Envoyform, almost certainly. Otherwise it's not clear to me if a Singer has to be taught what a rhythm means. I would like to know, but would probably ask "would a Singer attune the same rhythms a Seon pulses to express the same emotion?"

It certainly seems possible. Shallan's timeline is odd, but we know that Kaladin had attracted Syl long before he did anything with Surgebinding or Radiant oaths. And it also seems clear that at least some Radiants gain exceptional abilities, like Kaladin's skill with a spear and Shallan's memory and art. So I think it's plausible that Dalinar could have had some special enhancements of his own at least that far back, and enhancing his leadership abilities or sharpening his judgment of character would be in line with his powers. We'd probably want to start the clock on that last one after the end of WoK, since Sadeas was a swing and a miss for him. As for the drawing in Stormlight well into the past, I think that Dalinar was just developing Surgebinding powers and not necessarily developing a bond with the Stormfather. I could be wrong, of course, but my feeling is that the Stormfather's path to finding a Radiant was different from Syl's.

I completely get why people like him. He's heroic but not overly serious, a heart-of-gold-rogue sort of guy. He's a great partner for and foil to Wax, he's very competent at what he does (and exceptional at some things!). He's clever and pulls off some very cool and interesting things. He's a good counterpoint to the grim, serious turn so many of the series' major characters take. But I flat-out cannot stand characters who wander around doing random things, like his swapping, and never really have downsides to those behaviors and also just so happen to solve the story's problems along the way. It's debatable how much those things comprise his character on camera (especially in Bands of Mourning, my current favorite of that set). Without his POV chapters he wouldn't even be in my bottom five characters, but with them... well, for my personal tastes they are dead weight to the story and do significant damage to my suspension of disbelief (such as it is in fantasy novels). He's a little too much of potent spice, throwing off the whole Mistborn dish for me. Others have different palates, and I'm certainly glad he's there to enrich the books for them.

The Final Empire. There are a lot of great ones to choose from, but that one has always had the most for me. A close second is The Way of Kings. My answer's going to draw some heat, I think, but it's Wayne. He's a fine character in the mix for Mistborn era 2, but he's a type of character that I tend to find grating. When I re-read those books though, I just skip his POV chapters and he's back in my good graces. Also, KanPaar. He's a jerk!

Zinc/zinc, steel/steel, or gold/gold for me, probably. There are cool, dramatic effects from different combinations but compounding is really powerful and hard to turn down, particularly when it makes it so much easier, faster, and more pleasant to fill a metalmind. Effectively unlimited physical or mental speed could be useful in tons of ways, and rioting or steelpushing would also be versatile. Gold/gold is a bit unexciting and the Allomantic ability could be tough to use to any real effect, but physical indestructibility is pretty appealing. Atium/atium would also be handy, though I'd worry about finding enough of the metal to make good use of it. Outside of compounding I'd probably also go with A-pewter/F-gold, A-pewter/F-steel, or A-brass/F-gold. Allomantic pewter is awesome, and could offset the unpleasantness of filling a gold metalmind. Soothing would be both useful and subtle, plus gold for physical safety. And pewter/steel is a versatile, straight up superhero.

I think that one issue is that free will is not the same as random. If you were betting at a roulette wheel you would use some mental process to choose an outcome to bet on, and it wouldn't deny free will at all if that process played out the same way in identical situations with no new information. If a time traveler jumped back and observed that same bet over and over again without interfering in any way, there's no particular reason to think that your thought process would vary any more than the outcome of the mechanical process of spinning the wheel itself. That's the kind of future-sight that atium grants, what will happen if you don't act to alter it, and at least in every instance we've seen it is perfectly reliable. Someone who always chooses to play rock in rock-paper-scissors has free will and their play can always be predicted. That they could make a different choice isn't negated by their never making that different choice. Shardic future-sight seems different than atium in that it extends out over much longer periods of time (allowing for lots of branching possibilities, possibly including decisions by individuals), is opposed by other beings that can see the future to some degree (causing interference, as noted in a previous post in this thread), is possible to misinterpret or misapply (Ruin's knowledge of the future didn't help him too much), and is in all explicit cases we've seen shepherded by deific beings who have preferred outcomes (suggesting that their actions reinforce the future they prefer to come to pass). It would be very interesting to see a character peer into the future and just observe. The closest we've gotten is Renarin, and his visions explicitly aren't guarantees even when he himself doesn't interfere. Here I'm thinking of Dalinar not falling to Odium, rather than Jasnah not executing him. Possibly Lightsong also, but we don't really know how much information he gained before he was Returned. Alternatively... Fortune? We don't really know how that Shard works, but is mentioned as being associated with predicting the future. Maybe it's something akin to the Wheel in Wheel of Time. You can choose whatever you want, but in most cases the choice is either irrelevant to the future or not one that you can actually see through. What really gets me on this topic is gold Allomancy. How does it produce so few gold shadows, and how are they selected? That seems to me to be a much stronger effect, predicting a lifetime of different choices and the different situations they might have produced. I've squared the circle by thinking it's more psychological and personal-character based, like "who could you have been, if you thought and chose differently?" rather than "the real world would have produced this exact person if you had stew on April 7th rather than a sandwich". But who knows?

Thanks! Those WoB archives can be a slog to get through, these sections are great.

Thanks! I do think that Dalinar is the most likely Vessel for Honor, but I don't know if he'll keep it (sort of like Kelsier serving as an interim Vessel). If I'm right then his Bondsmith powers will be instrumental in reknitting Honor, and his bond to the Stormfather (the most prominent remaining piece of Honor) gives him a sort of natural channel for taking the Shard up. But... Dalinar's declaration in Oathbringer when he assumes Honor's power, that he is Unity, makes me wonder (that capital "U" is so suggestive!). My feeling is that this is important, and that in re-forging Honor Dalinar will change the Shard's Intent. It will be the same power, but instead of being focused as Honor (binding people to promises they make) it will be focused as Unity (binding things together, particularly things that were once one or that belong together). The description of Adhesion as a Surge unique to Honor, and Honor's truest Surge, seems like a compelling hint in that direction. Dalinar would be a great vessel for Honor, especially after swearing the fifth Bondsmith oath, but he seems less natural of a fit for Unity. So I think that maybe someone else will be a more natural fit in the long term, especially if Unity goes on a unifying rampage aimed at Odium and Cultivation. But I'm aware that my guess about Unity is probably heavily influenced by my poorly supported idea that Autonomy will be a/the major villain in an epic, deity-clash sense. It makes it too convenient that a Shard dedicated to unity would arise just because they would be so thematically opposed to each other. Autonomy inherently doesn't want others influencing or constraining its actions, and has seeded autonomous avatars of itself all over the Cosmere (including Roshar!). Unity would be more focused in the opposite direction, on parts becoming a whole. And given my sense that the Cosmere will conclude with Adonalsium being reunited then a deity fundamentally committed to that goal would be awfully convenient. With so little definitive information to work with I want to be cautious about using guesses to help other guesses fit together. But I also don't want to stop guessing, so here we are.

I think the best answer available right now is... maybe? The biggest issue I can think of are that we don't exactly know what Adonalsium was (is?). Holding all of Adonalsium's power may well make you similar, but not necessarily the same being/thing. It's also not totally clear, that I know of, that the 16 Shards created at the Shattering were the only possible Shards which could have been created, or that combinations of specific Shards are fixed either. In one of the WoBs Brandon confirms that, had Sazed had a different Intent, the combination of Preservation and Ruin might have become Discord instead of Harmony, and possibly still could. If all of the Shards were recombined they might completely shed their previous, narrowly focused domains and conflict like Harmony experiences could be a total non-issue.

Hi everyone, I just recently joined and am really excited to be able to talk about details of the Cosmere with other fans! I've read every published item in the Cosmere setting save for White Sand (I'm waiting for the compendium). I hope that people here have more patience for my Cosmere talk than those in my everyday life have had...

If I remember correctly (which I may not), Ruin is described as apparently lacking the knowledge and/or strength to Splinter Preservation (described by Khriss? I can't find the reference I feel I recall). On the other hand, I could also swear that I saw a Q&A from Sanderson stating that Ruin was involved with the Splintering (at least of Honor), as was Fortune in some way. I can't find that reference either, though I'll keep looking. In any case, the only successful Splintering (and other, possibly different Shard-deaths) that we know of have been committed by Odium. [Note]: I just went through all of the Q&As in the Coppermind Arcanum that mention Ruin, Odium, or Splintering and was apparently way off about my memory of a quote regarding Ruin and/or Fortune being involved in Honor's Splintering. There are hints that other Shards may have been involved (see these links, for example), and Odium is currently working with other Shards. But you are undoubtedly correct, it is a mistake to assume that only Odium can Splinter Shards. Especially since we don't know much about the mechanisms and nature of Splintering in the first place. In my recent trawl of Coppermind it's definitive that "Splintering" is a pretty broad term in the first place, and that even the Splinterings Odium has effected haven't all been the same (see link 1, and link 2). so my statement that only Odium can do it was even further off.

I've been re-reading the Stormlight books and have been thinking about specific events along with the current conflict raging during the Last Desolation as well as the overarching conflicts across the Cosmere. It seems likely to me, though not definitive, that Odium is more or less a permanent problem. Certainly Rayse was (so far) unique in being both able and willing to destroy other Shards whether or not he required help to do so. That motivation may have been unique to Rayse, but his time holding Odium could also have driven that course of action even if Rayse was already amenable. Either way, even with the change in Vessel to Taravangian Odium is still very dangerous and potentially hostile to the other Shards. Harmony strongly implies this in the epigraphs to chapters 37, 39, and 40 of RoW: If we take these sentiments to be true (which may not be wise, as Harmony is new to the deity scene, though his holding two Shards may give him unique insight) then it's not unreasonable to conclude that the goal outlined in the epigraph of chapter 34 of RoW is driven by Odium itself and not so much the Vessel bearing it: So whatever changes might exist when Taravangian destroyed Rayse and became the new Vessel of Odium it seems like the threat to the Cosmere is unchanged, and therefore so are Hoid's efforts and the situation for the other Shards. Odium is deific, and so far we don't know of any other Shards which are capable of Splintering (or otherwise destroying) a Shard. At some point Odium became trapped on Roshar, and while that was a good-enough solution for several millennia it clearly isn't permanent. Permanence in resolving this danger seems important for otherwise (mostly) immortal beings like the other Shards. For these reasons the current plan of Dalinar and company is doomed to fail. Their victory in the contest of champions, if it even takes place, will only push Odium's efforts into the future to some unknowable extent. And the wording of the agreement is unclear as to what, precisely, will happen if Odium's champion loses. Therefore any conclusion to Odium as an antagonist, whether in Stormlight alone or in all of the Cosmere works, cannot be: 1. the contest of champions, 2. changing Odium's Vessel, 3. destroying Odium, or 4. persuading Odium to behave differently. So that leaves the question "what is to be done about it?" And here is my answer: the only way to deal with Odium is to combine it with another Shard, thereby modifying how it operates. Such a combination has seriously hampered Harmony's ability to act on his own, for example. The discovery of the titular Rhythm of War implies that the combination of Honor and Odium might work and be worthwhile; Odium and Cultivation would presumably also work and be locally available to the Rosharans, but seems (to me) more dangerous than Honor/Odium and would require two possibly unwilling Vessels be dealt with. I presume that Vessels don't typically want to combine their own Shard with others for the same reason Odium doesn't want to, that it would change the raw expression of the original, fundamentally distinct Shard. My specific prediction is that Dalinar will use his powers to reconstitute Honor's Shard somehow, foreshadowed by his ability to open Honor's Perpendicularity and Odium's response: If Honor can be reassembled, then it could (perhaps) be imposed upon Taravangian or Taravangian himself destroyed and Odium taken up by anyone that also takes up Honor. Maybe Dalinar, maybe Kaladin, or maybe someone we don't know about yet. The specific person that does it would be less important than the idea that instead of unbridled hatred running around we would have honorable hatred (whatever that might be). It's not necessarily an end to any threat from Odium at all but is the only way I can think of that might deal with the Shard in any meaningful way. I don't know if this will happen in Stormlight 5, in Stormlight 6-10, in a different Cosmere work, or at all (obviosuly, lol!). My money's on sooner rather than later, as I imagine the ultimate villain(s) of the Cosmere will be Autonomy, Thaidakar, Hoid, or some combination of them rather than Odium, the major confluence of Cosmere events will involve a lot of things happening on Roshar, and the ultimate conclusion will be a re-forging of Adonalsium anyways. But that's an entirely different kettle of wild speculation.

My feeling is that Taravangian's Old Magic effects are mostly irrelevant after his ascension. We know from WoA and HoA that someone taking up a Shard has their mind radically expanded, we know that Odium previously had the ability to see into the future wildly beyond what the Diagram could offer, and Taravangian (even if at his stupidest) has a lot of experience following inscrutable hints about the future (from the Diagram) to accomplish his goals. And whether or not he retains his intense emotionality, we hear many times that Odium is passionate (or Passion!), and feels acutely. So I think that he's got a sufficient combination of intelligence, information, and feeling to at least be on par with Rayse-- Taravangian was able to do something even Hoid thought impossible pretty quickly. What he lacks relative to Rayse is experience with the power and knowledge of the other Shards, both of which seem likely to matter. What seems to matter more to a Shardholder is their personality and Intention, at least in the early days before the Shards warp them too radically. I am concerned that Taravangian's cold pragmatism, which in RoW Dalinar states can be used to justify anything at all, coupled with infinite power and colored by hatred is going to lead to atrocities outside of Odium's own self-interest. Far more so than whether or not the Old Magic continues to adhere to him. Since the only Shard we know of that can Splinter others is Odium, I think that swapping the persona holding the Odium Shard may be the best Cultivation could do in opposing him. Rayse-Odium does worry about Cultivation attacking him (according to the Stormfather), so maybe there are more options available than we currently know about.

It's definitely on-theme, but I feel like that's both something he's already done a lot of and is pretty committed to. Plus it seems too easy for him; the third and fourth oaths were hard, and the implication I've read into his progression is that the fifth will be even more difficult. Most people can't reach the fifth ideal. Maybe I'm being too reductive though. If it were something like empowering people to protect themselves and then not need Kaladin, that would be very hard for him and would fit with the fourth ideal and his struggle in RoW. I buy most of the other predictions though, and I'm excited to see if they pan out (especially Adolin and Maya, that was one of my favorite threads from RoW).

I hadn't even thought of it, and it's intriguing to finally learn another thing about Hoid! Even though we only have Shallan as an example, it seems like Lightweaver oaths are not just about observing oneself but also about admitting and accepting lies about who and what one is. I agree that us seeing Hoid tell us his truths seems unlikely, but maybe we'll get hints of the lies he has trouble letting go of. In that case we might learn something about the Shattering, how and why he was offered a chance to participate (and declined). Maybe we'll learn more about his actual goals, Cosmere-wide and on Roshar specifically. So that's my main guess-- bits of information on what we think we know about him that are revealed to be untrue, but not the actual truth. Alternatively, the Lightweaver oaths might end up having to do with Taravangian-Odium's meddling with Hoid's memory. That would fit with Shallan's experience, and it might be very difficult and painful for Hoid to recover his true identity and purpose after subtle manipulations. At a minimum he might have to confront not being so clever as to be untouchable, but that doesn't feel quite poignant enough (to me) after some of what we've seen of Hoid's behavior on Roshar. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I have counter-questions: do we know how far Hoid has progressed as a Lightweaver by the end of RoW, and how far does he need or want to go with his Lightweaving? It seems clear he's collecting magic from different Shards: So it doesn't seem like he's trying to get every available power, and he's knowledgeable enough pursue the ones that suit his purposes. He may have some degree of Lightweaving already, given how he interacted with some of Shallan's illusions in Oathbringer, So maybe he already has the powers he wants? Additional oaths bonding him to a spren might force constraints on his actions that he doesn't want, though a Cryptic bond might be the least significant type for that concern.