RedBlue

I haven’t seen many people dislike the Spiritual Kharbranth twist, but maybe I’ve just been reading different things. I thought it was a good twist. Very in-character for Taravangian, it’s a satisfying bruise on his ego to close out the first half with, and it’s a good plot hook for the second half of the series. It would be cool if book 6 had POVs from someone inside Fake Kharbranth, for an interlude or something. Imagine finding out that you’ve been living in a massive collective vision for the last decade. That would mess with your head.

I considered this interpretation too, but it’s too much of a stretch IMO. I don’t think Szeth works as Kaladin’s ‘darkened twin,’ especially as a big part of their arc was Kaladin realising that Szeth’s experience was more similar to Tien’s than Kaladin’s. And while Ishar could be considered a captive of sorts, Kaladin doesn’t have to ‘seek’ him in this moment. I think this death rattle is something for the back half.

And they seemed to be getting their info from Nale. I get that some of them achieved the fourth oath, but that doesn’t mean they understand how it’s done. They did it by completing a quest, but other Orders have oaths much more personalised to the needs of a specific Radiant following a loose template. I think it’s not truly necessary to approach Skybreaker oaths in such a rigid way, but Nale’s Skybreakers don’t know about that because they take Nale’s word for everything.

The Skybreaker oaths, as Nale described them, have always been weird. The other Orders’ oaths are much less structured. Also, Nale is clearly unreliable. With the new info that there are other groups of Skybreakers who do things differently, I think Szeth’s ‘I am the law’ oath was not his fifth oath, but his fourth. It’s not that he skipped one, and it’s not that the order is arbitrary, it’s that Nale’s info was wrong to begin with.

Presumably Helaran. He’s the eldest, so he could be Lin’s child from a previous (unofficial) relationship. It would explain why Helaran seems different from the other siblings in the way he’s treated by the family. Also, Helaran is the only sibling who doesn’t present with serious mental illness challenges, which Dreder implies all of Chana’s children suffer from.

Ports and shipping lanes are still massively important IRL. They don’t become obsolete with the advent of air travel. Transporting things by ship is more economic than air when you’re dealing with large bulk quantity goods which aren’t time sensitive.

I find it very interesting how fans have reacted to the various Heralds’ personal issues. It seems that there are some character flaws that are seen as sympathetic, or at least possible to overcome. Then there are other character flaws which are read as automatic signs of villainy. Megalomania? Kaladin can fix it. Murderous fanaticism? Fixable. Cowardice? How sad. Compulsive vandalism? Barely an issue. But greed? Better keep an eye on her! Who knows what she might get up to? To be clear, I’m not discounting the set-up of Battah making a deal with Odium, because that interlude exists for a reason. But I think it’s premature to jump to the conclusion that Battah is inherently a worse person than the others.

I think there’s a difference between a character being ‘broken’ and a character being at an emotional low point after a major loss. Jasnah is devastated, but in her POV sections toward the end of the book, she’s not checking out or giving up. She’s questioning her philosophy of ethics, but she isn’t throwing away her desire to have a good, consistent set of ethics to adhere to. And she still cares deeply about what is left of her family and her people. I don’t expect her to do anything wildly irresponsible in the time skip years.

I’m pulling for option 3. It would be too easy for her bargain with Odium to just go away, and it would be too obvious for her to be a straightforward traitor. If she’s genuine, but stuck with a binding oath to Retribution, that’s juicy.

Since this has become the Shard Categorisation Thread, what do we think about the two unrevealed Dawnshards? Looking at the Shards that don’t seem to fall under either Change or Exist, there seem to me to be two loose themes: emotion-based Shards, and Shards pertaining to rules or order. If there is a Dawnshard that’s all about emotion, Feel sounds like a good name for it. Three Shards jump out: Odium, Devotion, and Valor. Not sure about the fourth one. Maybe Mercy or Whimsy? I’m less sure what to call the ‘rules’ Dawnshard. I’ve seen people suggest Bind. I think Obey or Rule might also work, depending what angle it goes for. Obvious Shards for this category: Honor and Dominion. There’s also Autonomy (self-rule) and Reason (logic is about following rules). Are other people thinking along the same lines with Feel and Bind, or am I out on a limb here?

100% everything in this post. Jasnah vs Taravangian was one of my favourite sequences in the book. It was really cool to see a conflict play out that wasn’t a physical fight. It played to the strengths of both characters, and Taravangian’s approach was very clever. The resolution — Fen taking Taravangian’s deal — was heartbreaking because it felt so wrong, but at the same time, so inevitable. Fen had no good options. Rejecting Odium might be the morally upstanding thing, but it requires Fen to recklessly abandon all practicality and common sense. She was understandably unwilling to take that leap of faith, and Jasnah can’t be the person to inspire that kind of faith. Also, I think this loss was vital for Jasnah’s character. She is capable, intelligent and powerful. If nothing challenges her, she’ll just trundle along doing the same things she has always done. Now, she’s going to have to take a long, hard look at herself, then decide how to pick up the pieces.

Moash didn’t get a whole lot to do this book, which is unfortunate because I always look forward to him. I’m very curious to see what will happen with him in the back half. A redemption arc would be great — I like those, and Moash would be a tough nut to crack, which makes it interesting. But I don’t know how likely it is at this point. Moash seemed to hit rock bottom at the end of RoW, and spent WaT doubling down. What could make him want to dig himself out of this pit now?

From what I have seen, almost everybody who speculates about this has Ruin, Cultivation -> Change Preservation -> Exist I don’t understand why you’re listing Invention under the Change umbrella. I get that the process of inventing is usually iterative, but in the bigger picture, the point of invention is to make something, not to change it. I think Ambition and Endowment both fit better with Change. Changing one’s circumstances, and changing ownership.

I don’t think Vorinism is going to try to give Kaladin a symmetrical name. The names various cultures use for the Heralds grew over time as languages shifted and clergies misinterpreted history. If Kaladin picks up extra names, it will be in the far future, and by that point Vorinism might have dropped the obsession with palindromes.

10 years later Kaladin: um hello everyone. Sorry you spent ten years thinking I was dead. That must have been upsetting. Anyway, I am back, and I’m an immortal Herald now Everyone, literally everyone who knows Kaladin: I storming KNEW it

I was playing with this idea, too. The mural from Dawnshard — the power splitting into four, and the quarters splitting into four again — seems to encourage this line of thinking. My issue is that, no matter how much I play with groupings, I can’t get a second level of alignment to work for more than a few Shards. Speculating fans struggle to agree on even the first ‘layer’ of alignment, so I can’t imagine a second layer that wouldn’t feel forced and unnatural, which would be an unsatisfying solution when the books get there. So, at least for now, my guess is that the Shards fit in four groups of four with no particular order beyond that.

I think Fen would argue that she chose a bad situation to avoid a worse one. She would have negotiated favourable terms with Odium to ensure Thaylens will have decent living conditions, with some basic rights and protections (eg they can’t be drafted into the military). I don’t know what the Thaylen economy will look like going forward, but it won’t collapse. And yes, Fen ultimately answers to Retribution now, they live in permanent darkness and their contact with free countries will likely be cut off, but Thaylen people won’t starve. Personally, I think Fen made a mistake, because I don’t trust Taravangian not to find a way to exploit them. But I think Fen made a totally reasonable call, not a stupid one.

Epicanthic folds are genetic. People have them because they have them. Hoid wanted to make sure Odium stayed contained on Roshar. Now that the situation has changed, I expect he will want to pursue some way of removing Retribution from play entirely. I’m not 100% sure about the Sleepless, and there may be different factions with different goals, but I think at least some of them want to protect the Dawnshard (Rysn’s) so that it can’t be abused. This is a guess, but from what I remember of his previous appearance, he probably went to the Nightwatcher and got a boon/curse situation. I’m not sure Fen does feel stupid. There are valid reasons for her to want to be in Retribution’s empire right now, even though we disagree with her. Taravangian had a point about Thaylenah relying on trading via sea routes, and him controlling the coast.

The fact that different countries made different bargains with Odium suggests to me that they will be governed differently. Governments that negotiated with Odium will continue to rule, but as subordinates who take orders from Retribution. Countries that were conquered will have Retribution’s agents — presumably Fused — installed as a new government. I think countries that negotiated protections for their citizens will become centres of industry, to support the war machine, while everywhere else will focus on raising and training armies. A small problem Retribution has is that he has nobody to attack for ‘training’ purposes. To build up his armies’ experience, he may have to find or invent an enemy so that he can prosecute a low-stakes campaign against it. And I think the storm is permanent in areas that belong to him. There’s a reason it’s called the ‘Night of Sorrows.’ Retribution will want a constant, oppressive reminder of his dominance so he can wear people down psychologically. It’s the same with making them ask him for Light — it’s psychological warfare against his own people, making sure they feel dependent on him.

— Chapter 63. This is Adolin charging around during the Azir siege. He implies that, in killing Sadeas, he was embodying the more brutal parts of Dalinar’s legacy. — Chapter 123. This is Adolin after his injury, struggling to fight despite the conditions in the ordinary pike line. He is bitter that he feels held to a higher moral standard than Dalinar. The way I read it, Adolin has mixed feelings about his choices regarding Sadeas. He doesn’t suggest that killing him was wrong, but he feels that it was not entirely right either. He’s not a paragon of virtue, and Sadeas’ death is the biggest example everyone —including Adolin — keeps coming back to. I think these feelings are a big part of Adolin’s eventual resolution. He can empathise with Dalinar and let him be just a person, because Adolin himself has done morally dubious things, and understands that sometimes people can’t be perfect.

I have also been thinking about the broader themes and overarching narrative of the Cosmere, so I’m glad you made this thread. For obvious reasons, I can’t speak to Sanderson’s personal beliefs, but I find his portrayal of religious institutions in the Cosmere so far to be thoughtful, respectful, but most of all, skeptical. The religious institutions in Elantris and Mistborn (era 1) are straight-up broken. The one in Warbreaker is more nuanced in that the ‘gods’ genuinely serve a helpful role in society, but it is rife with ethical problems and ultimately does not have correct answers for the deeper questions. Vorinism in Stormlight brings peace of mind to people like Navani, but it’s clearly a mishmash bundle of culture-specific traditions and half-remembered history that has been passed down regardless of whether any of it it is true or even helpful. This has earned my trust as a reader. Wherever the Cosmere is heading, I don’t think ‘god(s) will have to learn how to figure it out’ is the destination. It would be too simplistic, and it would ring hollow. I believe Sanderson is a better writer than that. It’s also notable that all of the characters presented as gods in the Cosmere are really just regular people who, for various reasons, ended up with huge amounts of power. What they choose to do with it, and how it changes them, are central to most Cosmere stories. I suspect that Honor’s nascent personality is shaping up to be another manifestation of this theme — he won’t be a ‘true’ deity, but a person (albeit not a human) with a limited perspective and far too much power. The difference between ‘gods have to be better’ and ‘people with power have to be better’ is substantial.

I didn’t see this twist coming, but I really like the way it panned out. I think it’s really cool how the New Oathpact is almost an inversion of the old one. Instead of locking away enemy Fused in a state of perpetual conflict, this one protects both innocent and combatant spren from attack. Instead of inflicting torture on the Heralds, this one gives them an opportunity to rest and recuperate. It’s like the beginning of a new, better era for the Heralds.

Wit appears to be referencing Vin giving up Preservation’s power at the Well. Which is very interesting, considering that Kelsier did give up Preservation in a way that is very relevant to the conversation Wit and Dalinar are having. The fact that Kelsier was a Cognitive Shadow, not fully mortal, at the time seems like a semantic nitpick. Either Wit doesn’t think Kelsier counts — in which case I would like to know why not — or Wit doesn’t know that Kelsier gave up Preservation.

Three Shards jump out at me as being Exist-flavoured. Preservation, for obvious reasons. Virtuosity and Invention, because both of those Intents relate to bringing something — a piece of art, or technology — into existence. The fourth one I’m not sure about. I considered Autonomy, but that feels like it would fit better in a category that’s more about rules or governance than existing. You can easily exist without being autonomous, and autonomy can’t make things exist. I’m leaning toward Whimsy. If you take it to mean a sort of playful or silly creativity, like the bits of creating art that are too sloppy or spontaneous to make it into the more skill-based Virtuosity, or coming up with ideas that are too weird or pointless for Invention, it could make sense. But if you take Whimsy to mean just quirkiness or a sense of humour, it’s difficult to pick out a fourth exist-aligned Shard.

Yes, I meant the chain of events leading to Taravangian Ascending to Odium. I agree that Retribution was a turn of events that none of them saw coming.