RedBlue

I’d be happy to take a look at your manuscript.

Agree with both of these. Something that strikes me about this thread is that it seems there are two separate debates going on, that often get mashed together. One is the question of whether regicide is morally justified in the political context of OB. The other is whether vigilante murder is justified in the context of Moash’s personal circumstances. I think these are different moral questions, since Moash’s motivation was entirely personal. He doesn’t care about the politics, the quality of Elhokar’s rule or the wider ramifications of killing a king, and he’s not associated with a political organisation at the time. (Personal opinion: neither are justified, but I can still feel sympathy for Moash despite that and I can still root for him to get his act together and become a better version of himself.)

Hello everyone, Thanks for the feedback on chapter 11. This time, chapters 12 and 13. For context, this is the halfway point in the book in terms of page count. Questions: 1) Any boring or confusing bits? 2) Do the characters’ thoughts and actions make sense? 3) Thoughts about the decisions T and C make? 4) Does this answer questions about why the adults were trying to keep info from C?

This is so valid. It was literally a war. Moash is just on the other side at this point. I read that scene differently. First off, I think ‘deserved to die’ is harsh for Elhokar. He was doing his best and was never acting from malice. Also, Elhokar was a (kind of) combatant in a war and different moral standards are in play during a war, but Moash didn’t kill him because he was an enemy combatant. Moash killed him because of a personal grudge, and then proceeded to ignore all of the other enemy combatants - he even saluted at Kaladin. What Moash did was not remotely about the war, so wartime rules don’t apply in this case. I have some sympathy for Moash because he’s had such a rough go of it, and he has very valid grievances. I very much enjoy reading his parts. But I don’t see how his actions in WoR or OB are morally justifiable. That’s an interesting way of looking at it. Genuine question (not one of those rhetorical ‘gotcha’ questions): would your opinion of Moash change if he started making better choices in future books, or is he too far gone in your opinion? Where was the point of no return for you?

Hi @spitefulmage! Always good to have new people around. Looking forward to seeing those short stories of yours! We don’t pull our punches with critiques around here, but that’s what makes it useful.

Thanks for the feedback - I'll see about trimming the superfluous bits. Yes, they're T's parents. I'll add a few words to clarify, as it has been a while since we last heard T's last name. What I was going for was GM trying to get C in trouble at first, but when she realises that this time it's really serious, she has a change of heart. I'll see what I can do about clarifying that. Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

I would like a slot for Monday, too.

I was just thinking about how much theorising about the Fifth Ideal is based on what we know about the Skybreakers, so I went looking for the passage where we learn about it. Oathbringer, chapter 90 Context: Szeth and a bunch of other Skybreaker hopefuls are asking questions of some of Nale’s Skybreakers who are in charge of training new recruits. Notably, this description of the Fifth Ideal comes from people who have not sworn it. According to them, it is centuries since the last time someone swore the Fifth Ideal - which, unless I’m missing something, means that Nale is the only living person who has sworn the Fifth Ideal (for Skybreakers). He’s the only one who has done it in generations. Presumably he’s their only source for this information. And he’s insane. Couple that with how weird it sounds as a Radiant Ideal (the person who says ‘I am the law’ is usually not the good guy) and it looks like there’s something fishy going on. I think that what Szeth learns about the Fifth Ideal in OB is not actually true. Or if it is, it’s misleading.

I’m not so sure about this - I think Moash does feel remorse over killing Teft, but he’s deep in denial and the ability to outsource his negative emotions means that he has no incentive to be better or to change. I think the fact that Moash does have that pain, even if he’s refusing to feel it or own it right now, is the reason that a redemption arc is possible for him.

I agree that there are good plot reasons for characters to put Alethkar’s social problems on the back burner for the time being. I do hope that future books will come back to the structural inequality plot line, though. I liked those elements in WoK and WoR, and it would feel kind of weird if they were dropped completely and not mentioned again. It would be very interesting to see how things change for regular people, after all the upheaval of the war and the appearance of powerful Radiants who have very different ideas about equality and who gets to be important.

From what I’ve seen, the Moash hate in the fandom comes from a small but vocal minority - but yeah, I also get frustrated at the lack of nuance in the discussions at times. Shardcast did a good episode on Moash (which has RoW spoilers, definitely save it for after you finish reading) that gets into redemption and things like that. I was very sympathetic to Moash through WoR and OB. He makes some very wrong decisions for sure, but he’s far from being irredeemable. It’s difficult to talk about my opinion of his actions during RoW without spoiling major plot points, so I won’t. I’ll just say that events in RoW do have a big impact on the Moash discussion. Personally, I would still be on board for a Moash redemption arc (though I wouldn’t take issue if it didn’t happen). Flawed characters navigating an unfair world, trying to do their best, sometimes succeeding and sometimes falling short, are some of the things I really like about the Stormlight Archive.

Honestly? No. I think it’s reasonable for W to take her parents at their word. Lying to W was definitely a bad idea on the parents’ part, but from a writing perspective, it’s not bad for characters to make bad choices. W seems to have an issue with falling apart under pressure, so I can see why the parents wanted to shield her from the truth. My original assumption when reading about the mom’s mysterious illness was that it was magical in nature (since this story has fantasy elements), but the reveal worked for me.

As I read: p2 - So what I'm getting here is that Dr Y wants Ori to go through the weird place and use this tech to log data, and this needs to be sneaky. I'm not sure why this needs to be sneaky. p3 - I can't tell if Dr Y is intentionally withholding important information or if he's just bad at communicating. If we're supposed to be unclear on what his deal is, it's working. p4 - Okay, so this was a spy mission all along. That makes sense. p5 - If you're looking to trim, I think a lot of page 5 can go. We don't need this much description of her walking through the space station, and we don't need the rehash of her plans. p5-6 - Ori's tourist impression felt a bit off to me. So far, she hasn't struck me as the sort of person who can easily slip into a role like that. And it feels weird, given that this is supposed to be sneaky, that she's pretending to be the most annoying and attention-grabbing kind of tourist rather than a boring, unmemorable tourist. p8 - Ori wrangling with unhelpful AI goes on a bit long, especially after the much more interesting unhelpful AI from last chapter. p8 - I'm unclear on why Ori just decided to throw her lot in with B and deal with her issues. p14 - This back-and-forth between the two people Ori is spying on telepathically feels like it goes on too long for the amount of information being conveyed. Also, I think tightening it will make it clearer what they're arguing about - I think they're debating destroying Ard? p15 - Mirror universe Ata and Ori are a couple, aren't they. This should make things interesting! p17 - This is juicy stuff! p22 - Engagement dropping a bit here. It feels like the climax of the chapter is over, and her getting through the tourist trap back to Dr Y's office and B reads like busy work. Generally - good chapter. I liked the meeting with alternate Ata.

Hello everyone, Chapter 11 this week. Thanks for all the feedback on chapter 10 – I’ve added a few lines to point out the scheduling clash between T’s Wood Stove appointment and the town meeting, and also to show C grappling a bit with the decision (basically, her curiosity about the town’s secrets vs her friendship with T). Questions: 1) Any boring or confusing bits? 2) Do the characters’ thoughts and actions make sense? 3) Thoughts about GM and C? 4) Is the reveal of new info satisfying?

I like the cleverness of this thinking, but I spot two main issues that make this seem unlikely to me. 1: I am not sure how this would be the case. Even if we assume that reinstating the Oathpact can prevent Odium’s champion from getting to Urithiru, Dalinar and his team would see the problem and fix it. 2: The loophole that Taravangian saw is too subtle for Rayse to have noticed. Taravangian notes that Rayse allowed himself to be manoeuvred into a situation where he can’t win. If the solution Taravangian has found is to wait for his opponents to mess up all by themselves - well, that’s not what I would call a loophole, and it’s not the sort of subtle play Taravangian seemed to be describing.

I would like a slot for Monday, please.

Aside from @bmcclure7‘s point that Taravangian is already filling that spot and probably won’t be going away any time soon, what would Moash actually do as Odium? So far, Moash has fixated on people who have wronged him personally, and on Kaladin. He doesn’t show much interest in anything or anyone beyond that. If he were set loose in the cosmere, I don’t think he would have any reason or desire to leave Roshar. In that way, a Moash!Odium would be less dangerous on a cosmere scale than Rayse!Odium.

Hi! Looking forward to reading the next chapter. As I read: p1&2 - The opening scene with W's parents feels a bit unnecessary. It looks like we're just recapping what happened previously, which would be annoying if I were reading these chapters all in a row. W's angst included - I generally like what you're doing with W, but this feels like rehash. Bottom of p2 - W mentions that she's getting credit for tutoring N. Not sure if that still applies, depending on how you're changing the previous chapter. p3 - Do teenagers talk about metabolism? I recall just assuming that mine would work. (I could definitely be the weird one here, though) p4 - The date scene starts out pretty unromantic (if that's the intent, then that's fine) p5 - Wow, this is one super awkward date! p6 - Hold on, so W is actively trying to make the atmosphere less date-y? I assumed that N was just being clueless, which is standard for him, but W seems to be actively sabotaging herself, which is a problem she has but this seems a bit much even for her. p7 - ' "Seems like that should take preference" ' I think you mean precedence? p7 - Suddenly N is trying a bunch of cheesy romantic lines? This seems a bit out of the blue p9 - ' "What language was that, also?" ' This line sounds a bit stilted Bottom of p9, top of p10 - I don't think you need to restate where they both stand on a relationship with the other. We just saw them have a talk about trying out a date, so we don't need to see them talk about it on the date. p10 - I like the conversation around the food with the parents. It feels like one of the more organic bits of the chapter. p11 - I think you can cut the bit about W's anxieties, or just say that they're building up again. I feel like I already know what they are. p11 - I like the homemade card and N freaking out when the mom starts crying. It's very N. p12 - He can smell the mom's illness??? This is a twist I did not see coming but I am on board with this development p14 - 'It's rare for someone to get as her without doctors having some idea of what's going on' - I think you have a word missing or something p14 - 'Unless ... they don't want me anymore' - I can kind of see how the parents hiding things from W feeds into her insecurities, but I think it's too early for her to be this deep into irrationality. I think you need more build-up to pull off a leap like that and make it believable. If you showed her getting really really angry first, that might help. p15 - Even with the parents' explanation, this sounds like an incredibly stupid decision to make. And what on earth made them think this was going to get sorted out easily? p15 - Poor N! I feel bad for him. And boy does W have issues. 1) I thought the chapter picked up steam and got good around page 10 through to the end of the chapter. The drama with the mom's illness was good. Prior to page 10, it felt like the date scene didn't have a direction. They talk about random stuff, it's awkward in a way that feels trivial, then it gets kind of romantic in a cheesy way that feels weird, and I don't know what I'm supposed to take from it. I think it would really help if you nailed down an emotional through-line. (Also, if the date was actually going well, and W and N were getting along surprisingly well, it would hit harder when it all comes crashing down.) 2) I am seriously questioning both of the parents' judgement. What a stupid thing for both of them to do. I feel sorry for N. Poor guy can't seem to catch a break, and it's interesting that W's anger scares him. Possibly something to dig into there. W ... okay, so I anticipate that some people will find it frustrating to have a protagonist who can't get her act together for at least long enough to explain the situation to her date, but I think W is interesting. She is clearly going into crisis mode, but she's also aware of that and she's fighting not to do anything she's going to really regret later. I like that, even though she's (justifiably) very angry, she apologises for raising her voice and doesn't slam her bedroom door. I like that she's working on it, but has a long way to go. 3) I don't have issues with the way W and N figure out the big twist.

No problem, I feel your pain on moving around information and getting confused Also, I have now read the first book in this series, so I now have more of an idea about where the old characters come from but not much of a clue about how they got where they are now. As I read: p1 - I think we have seen this epigraph before, a few chapters back? I assume it's one of the things that got switched around in the shuffle. p2 - 'their cellulose-fueled propulsion dead and devoid of cellulose' - it feels a bit redundant to say that it's dead if the main problem is no more cellulose. p3 - S being telepathically blocked tracks, since Ata couldn't contact her back in chapter 9. p3 - This might just be me having missed something, but I'm confused about what the characters think or know about Pru, and what I'm supposed to think or know about Pru (beyond 'there's a mystery here'). What is supposed to have happened to it? p4&5 - The characters seem confused about the lack of space traffic, but didn't they just get pulled through a cellulose-eating hole in the fabric of space (or something)? It seems like the obvious answer, that space is big and they're way off the beaten path, is being overlooked. p6&7 - The automated answer machine holo is pretty funny. p11 - What I'm getting from this is that someone tried to lead Ata to Pru, and they are probably not friendly. p12 - 'Ard's last known coordinates' p13 - It seems like whoever set this up was expecting the ship and whoever was on it to get destroyed by the planet's holo p14 - I've picked up that Pru is supposed to have exploded in the relatively recent past, but I still have questions about why that happened and what the characters know or suspect about it. p15 - Sounds like they've landed in some sort of parallel timeline? p16 - Okay, parallel dimension called the beta plane. Generally, good chapter. It felt like a lot was going on and we got a lot of new info about Pru and the beta plane. The only repeat info, as far as I recall, is that S is telepathically blocked off from Ata and E, and also can't be reached by conventional means. I don't suggest you cut that entirely, because it would be weird if the crew didn't try to call for help. You might want to trim those parts, though, to keep the focus on the new stuff.

Hello everyone, Thanks for the feedback on the last chapter. I hear you on the pacing of finding out new info – I’m playing with some ideas for adjustments to make, but I want to get through the next few chapters before I start tinkering. This week, I’m subbing the revision of the chapter 8 conversation between C and Mr S, since I made some pretty big changes to it. Also, chapter 10. (I know it’s even shorter than usual this week, but the next part is kind of a chunk and I want to sub it in one piece) Questions: 1) Is the new version of chapter 8 better? Does it fix the problem of feeling like it was too easy? 2) Any boring or confusing bits? 3) Do the characters’ thoughts and actions make sense? 4) Any changes to your opinion on GM?

The problem I have with Odium directly fabricating the Tranquiline Halls belief is that it seems to be an Alethi-only belief. The fact that the rest of Roshar doesn’t seem to have afterlife war myths suggests to me that it’s a naturally occurring religion, and Odium isn’t behind it. Having said that, Odium can 100% take advantage of it now that it’s here. That was my assumption after reading ROW, too. Taking over all the armies of Roshar and having them work for you seems like a solid plan. I don’t think the Desolations were intended to produce the armies Odium wants. I think they were his attempt to take over Roshar so that he could start building those armies. There’s no point in battle-hardening a bunch of soldiers who don’t take orders from you. Or - maybe we’re overestimating Rayse and the truth is that he’s very bad at this!

ROW, chapter 112 This is the clearest description of the Cosmere war that I could find. So yes, Odium has been using Roshar to raise an army, with which he plans to take over the rest of the Cosmere - and given Taravangian’s ideas about ‘saving’ everyone, I think it’s safe to assume that the fundamental plan is unchanged, even if strategy might be different under the new Odium. As far as I can remember, there aren’t any references to Odium influencing Vorin religion directly, or messing with people’s ability to go into the Beyond on Roshar. That doesn’t mean he’s not doing it, though. In addition to the screams Szeth and Dalinar hear, we’ve had scenes with Nohadon and Tien, and heard Evi and Teft speak briefly. These characters should (by our understanding of how death works in the Cosmere) be in the Beyond and therefore out of reach. If Odium is responsible for the death weirdness, I’m inclined to think he’s doing it across the board, not picking and choosing individuals. He speaks scathingly about Nohadon, and I can’t imagine he would consider Evi or Tien useful to his purposes.

I would like a slot for Monday too, please!

This tracks. If it weren’t crazy, the Shin wouldn’t be doing it

This is pretty much my thoughts. The Oathpact was never a good solution for anyone involved - the Heralds, the Fused, regular humans and singers, the Shards - and it’s clear now that it can’t work in the long term, or even the medium term. I would be shocked if any of the main characters decided to reinstate the Oathpact as it was originally. I could see the characters working with the weakened Oathpact, making it into something new, maybe in an attempt to heal the Heralds. But that wouldn’t require a replacement Herald.