therunner

Eh...I was responding to bmcclure7 who brought it up in his proposal: We don't know how the rest of the conflict will play out, so commenting on the future of entire Roshar is presumptuous. For all we know El might be dead at the end book 7. But we can comment on Alethi-in-exile and Urithiru. Young Navani certainly wouldn't, she wanted power. Present-day Navani wants to lose herself in research, so having less to do as queen is ideal for her. She was already delegating quite a bit. Not all believed that, and why does speaking for Honor grant him any special authority? Why would Windrunner not protect mistreated slaves, only because monarch is Bondsmith? Bondsmiths don't have any special authority over the Ideals of Radiants. Then you do your best to make him comply, possibly with assistance of other Radiants. Or you know, use suppressor Fabrial. Or if in Urithiru, Tower could likely expel them. There will always be classes of people who can choose to ignore the law, in capitalist system it is the people with enough money (as numerous corruption scandals can attest to, or even certain recent sentencing).

Yeah, Jasnah wants that, but I don't think she will be successful in that. I mean, she rarely succeeds in her goals: Stop Voidbringers from returning - FAIL Find Urithiru - overtaken by Shallan Remove slavery - will be slow process and is already met with large pushback Be last queen of Alethkar - ??? (but already others are making provisions for monarch to stay in place, if diminished) Large part of that is that her goals are quite ambitious, so failing to match up to them is basically inevitable. We'll see in few years, if this time it will work out. Oh yeah, definitely. Politically, including spren into decision making process of nations will be the next big step for Rosharan politics I think. Seems mostly reasonable, though I would say supreme court shouldn't be chosen by the Bondsmith, that concentrates too much power into single person (Bondsmith effectively has control over both executive and judicial branches). Would the Radiants vote for their representatives? Also, would Radiants also be able to vote into Congress? I would say that if Radiants are represented by their separate chamber of parliment, then they shouldn't be able to be candidates for the other chamber, nor vote into it. That way their will won't be overrepresented.

No, that is not the case at all. Let's go over what is actually stated about Jasnah's system in the book: It is supposed to be representative form of government with checks on absolute power Or perhaps something like Jasnah has always dreamed of, a more … representational method of governance. You should read some of her essays on the topic (Dalinar's opinion) Yanagawn was in many ways baffling to Adolin—a figurehead more than a king. Like a Soulcast statue, powerful in station, but somehow personally impotent. Jasnah thought this was a good thing; Adolin had tried to follow her explanations why. It made sense when she talked about checks on absolute power, but Jasnah could make anything sound reasonable. Barring that, they wanted him to be Jasnah’s heir until Gav was of age. Though Jasnah would ensure an elected official took her place, they thought Alethkar should have a monarch, even if they didn’t have absolute power. Even you, Jasnah, who speak of equality and a representative government, ignored the elected officials today, It will include elected senate and Ministerial Exemplar Jasnah, I wish to adopt your system,” Renarin said. “Can we institute a representative government for Urithiru, as you have for the Alethi exiles here?” ... “My brother and I refuse the throne,” Renarin said. “I won’t stand for a highprince to be elevated. We will have an elected senate and a Ministerial Exemplar.” He stopped, looking back at them. “I think you’ll find Brightness Jasnah’s writings on the topic to be quite thorough." It will include queen/monarch, and they will retain some power "But if Queen Navani wakes, she’ll discover that most of her power has been stripped away! She’ll be furious.” “When my aunt wakes,” Renarin said, “she’ll accept that the world has progressed, and a queen can lead without being a ruler." Jasnah's place would be elected “Though Jasnah would ensure an elected official took her place..." All of the above are statements about Jasnah's proposed system of governance, Renarin does not seem to be referring to any compromise but her writings, and it clearly includes roles of Elected Senate Ministerial Exemplar Monarch That makes it by definition constitutional monarchy, as there is a monarch (hence monarchy) and has powers limited by other bodies (the constitutional part). Jasnah's place being elected could mean either that the governmental role that queen currently plays will be elected (i.e. head of government will be elected), or that monarch will be elected by some selected body (as is the case in some constitutional monarchies such as Malaysia or Cambodia). Finally, even if Jasnah's undiluted thoughts were full abolishment of monarchy, that is clearly not what is setup to actually happen (due to pressures from others). Both Alethkar and Urithiru are setup to be constitutional monarchies, if the reforms take place. Edit: TLDR: Renarin refers to adopting Jasnah's system that she did/wants to institute for Alethi exiles. That system has elected senate, Ministerial Exemplar (likely prime minister) and monarch. Both Sebarial and Renarin comment on role of queen in such governmental system, so clearly monarch is present, and retains some powers. As such, the system Jasnah is instuting for Alethi exiles is constitutional monarchy, and so is the system intended for Urithiru.

Oh am I not saying that the books are the same, just that to me it seems there are those two rather broad categories of readers. I agree with this, basically the first two books set up a simple message, book 3 rug-pulls (original Voidbringers being humans, Kaladin struggling with the fact that Singers are also deserving of protection, etc.) and the last two explore various consequences of that, and continue subverting the more simplistic message. I can agree with that. It felt to me that some moments in RoW and WaT intentioally echo earlier moments, and it rarely worked for me. For example, "You cannot have my pain!" VS "You cannot have my sacrifice".

Yes, hence the system they are actively going for is likely not going to collapse. If radiants didn't collapse absolute monarchy in more than a year, why would they collapse system that gives more power to citizens? And again, you can carve out provisions in law system for Radiants. There are existing exception for diplomants IRL, you could do something similar. Yes, the Radiant has to violate them by not acting on them, not by external conditions merely existing. But what counts as acting on Oaths depends on perception of Radiant and spren. E.g. in a democratic system, working to change laws could count as acting on the Oaths. As to the Lift/Kaladin, their Oaths didn't force them to e.g. help free slaves or parshmen. And same for other Edgedancers or Windrunners. So apparently, slavery existing in a state does not necessarily contradict Windrunner or Edgedancer Oaths. Similarly, Venli didn't seem compelled to free humans in Kholinar from bondage. So there is clearly rather large range of what is 'permissible' for Oaths. And? Why is that necessarily problematic? What does this have to do with form of government? Like farmers could in any other system? How is that different or relevant? Also, farming is no longer dependent on them, Urithiru is basically working automatically, or they can use the singer method. No they don't. They have soulcasters from Shattered plains, where they existed perfectly fine without Lightweavers for over 5 years.

Whether or not Radiants respect the mechanism of governance, has little bearing on what Jasnah (and Renarin) want to establish, which is the subject of discussion. I do agree that Radiants will make some parts of governance more difficult, however that is something that can be handled by law system (e.g. have special provisions carved out for Radiants). Plus, Urithiru has functioned for over a year now, even with Edgedancers and Windrunners present, who are the orders most likely to be problematic (seeing people neglected or defenseless hurt). External actions don't violate Radiants Oaths, only Radiant can violate them by acting against them. But there is latitude in that, as e.g. Lift did not violate her Oaths despite being in Urithiru for over a year now, even when it is absolute monarchy. All of that is true, however what does it have to do with system of governance? State providing housing and food, and being basis for economic activity does not imply much about governmental system.

Way to ignore the more detailed description later on. So I'll try again So Urithiru is adopting Jasnah's system, and queen still exists as a role = constitutional monarchy/. The fact that elected official took place of a queen in government (as in e.g. UK where Prime Minister is the head of government) does not make it modern democracy.

Yes, I do disagree, because the book never says that. The word 'democracy' does not appear a single time in the Stormlight, all that is being talked about is representative government and checks on absolute power. Quotes from WaT Or perhaps something like Jasnah has always dreamed of, a more … representational method of governance. You should read some of her essays on the topic (Dalinar's opinion) Yanagawn was in many ways baffling to Adolin—a figurehead more than a king. Like a Soulcast statue, powerful in station, but somehow personally impotent. Jasnah thought this was a good thing; Adolin had tried to follow her explanations why. It made sense when she talked about checks on absolute power, but Jasnah could make anything sound reasonable. Barring that, they wanted him to be Jasnah’s heir until Gav was of age. Though Jasnah would ensure an elected official took her place, they thought Alethkar should have a monarch, even if they didn’t have absolute power. Even you, Jasnah, who speak of equality and a representative government, ignored the elected officials today, So none of the above speak of modern democracy. And finally, at the end we get this “Jasnah, I wish to adopt your system,” Renarin said. “Can we institute a representative government for Urithiru, as you have for the Alethi exiles here?” ... “My brother and I refuse the throne,” Renarin said. “I won’t stand for a highprince to be elevated. We will have an elected senate and a Ministerial Exemplar.” He stopped, looking back at them. “I think you’ll find Brightness Jasnah’s writings on the topic to be quite thorough." ... “When my aunt wakes,” Renarin said, “she’ll accept that the world has progressed, and a queen can lead without being a ruler." So from what Renarin says, Urithiru will be adopting system Jasnah proposed for Alethi exiles, and the system has Elected senate Ministerial Exemplar (likely Prime Minister equivalent) Queen So the system Jasnah proposes and that is being adopted is in fact constitutional monarchy analogue, not modern democracy. So the book is in fact doing what you yourself suggested as the better option. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share. Limited suffrage does not mean government is not representative, otherwise no government in the world would be representative even today. Both Roman Republic and (some) Greek city states did have representative governments while not being modern democracies, those two are not equal things. Likewise, having an element of unelected officials is also fine, even in representative government (see House of Lords in UK), so incorporation of the Orders into the system would also not making non-representative. Also, Jasnah's reforms on slavery are intended to take place overtime, so political reform would likely do the same, to ensure smooth transition, quote There was a lot of general panic about Jasnah’s work to free the Alethi slaves, a decision that Dalinar had copied for Urithiru after some persuasion. It would be a slow process, designed to take effect over time, with social systems in place to facilitate. Jasnah, as usual, had done her research

Are you surprised that people discuss things on discussion forum? Being challenged is not the same as being silenced or attacked, if you have an opinion people disagree with, they are free to let you know (within bounds of polite discussion). If you say something not factual, people are also free to challenge that and raise evidence. If you just want people agreeing with you, you can tag a post 'Support' as Treamayne helpfully reminds people. What promises he made you that were broken? I am genuinely interested in what you thought you would be getting. To me, the promise was high-fantasy series based around the (relatively common) trope of "Magic coming back", which is exactly what I got. What does trust have to do with 'show don't tell'? That is completely separate point. As to the main topic, It seems to me that there are broadly two groups of Stormlight fans: Group A: Likes most TWoK and WoR, and less so the next 3 books Group B: Likes broadly all, though have complaints to specifics (e.g. writing style) in some books I'd put myself in group B, personally I find TWoK and WoR to be the weaker books in the series, with Oathbringer the best. I also did enjoy immensely Navani's storyline in RoW, which is somewhat rare (or at least it seemed to me on these forums) as even trying to portray research "onscreen" is quite rare in speculative fiction. WaT to me is reasonable conclusion to what was setup over the previous books, with some twist and turns (didn't expect Dalinar to day for example), so it didn't appreciably affect my feeling on the series so far, no more than previous books.

Yep, exactly. Characters in world were conditioned to see Honor as good, and Odium as bad, and in this book make concrete steps to move past that false dichotomy.

Spren (and cognitive entities in general) are capable of learning and changing, though they are also susceptible to perceptions of others. He will definitely be worse than what Fused-Dalinar could have been. But I wouldn't worry about his effectiveness in future combat (if he makes it that far), if there is one thing Blackthorn was good it was waging war, with whatever tools he had available.

Yes and no, in my opinion. While yes, it is that old, it also wasn't a legislative body with any power between circa 1300s and 1900s...so Roman Republic was still functional and actually doing legislation for longer stretch of time. And again, Roman Republic is so far more of a success than US, at least on durability. In 2 centuries we can adjust that statement, but as of now, US is not yet proven to be better. Yes, and that works both ways. You have no evidence they would mind, just as I have no evidence they wouldn't. They might not want 'democracy' (because they never heard of it), but they might want to have more say in what happens to them. If someone goes and tells them, "Hey, now you have some say in laws and what happens with Alethkar!" I think most would be supportive. Could you provide any evidence as to this? From what I can find, Roman Republic is roughly contemporaneous with e.g. direct democracy of city states like Athens, so from that, Roman Republic was in fact among the very first republics in history. And neither does Jasnah, she is clearly working from pre-existing body of work, and wants to reform Alethkar state, not start from scratch. Its absolute monarchy, ruling class is in effect the monarch. And those two people have superpowers. New and familiar I grant you, so you would want to introduce it gradually, not all at once. Why would they think that? Per you, they are not familiar with democracy at all, why would they think it inherently favor elite and wealthy more than current system? Current system which literally made them to be second class. In this way, democracy would be an upgrade, and there is no discussion. Like they could turn against existing system of caste and rulership which was proven to be based on a lie/misunderstanding? Current system is already not working for darkeyes, and they know it. That makes them more receptive to change, as you yourself say. Not in Alethkar, Gavilar conquered it in living memory, there is no divine election. Because that is representative of the system which repressed them. And they have no guarantee they will write down what they say. As knowledge of the undertext start spreading, it will erode some trust. Who is the highest ranking spren? How is rank of the spren decided? Is it age? Lineage ? (this would be just monarch with extra steps) Military rank? (this would be just military rule with extra steps) Spren elections? Saying spren makes the choice just shifts the problem of the government system to spren. Yes, constitutional monarchy for example. I am certain ideologically she would want to try for semi-modern democracy, but I am also certain that the circumstances won't permit that (barring some unforeseen cirmustances). What evidence do you have it will be modern democracy? Because I am still not seeing any.

What?? Again, Roman Republic is the longest lasting republic in history. Not longest lasting early republic, longest lasting in period. US is more than 2 centuries younger than Roman Republic was at its end. Even if you look at other systems of governance, lasting ~500 years without change of that system is long. Roman Republic actually is the 8th on the list of longest uninterrupted forms of governance. Why not? You keep saying it, but you don't provide much evidence. Also, you keep saying people don't want that system, but where is the evidence? So far only high ranking lighteyes complained. Do you think citizens of Roman Republic knew what republic was in 5th century BC? Hell, do you think the people who created the first republic knew what it was? Some nation, somewhere did it first, with no prior knowledge. Ehm, those people were thrown into camps with no structure provided by Singers. So they fell back on what was familiar. That is quite different from being provided new structure. Neither does it mean they wouldn't want democracy. They likely wouldn't argue for a king, as that system is sort of build on either right of conquest or right of blood. They certainly wouldn't argue for essay system, as half the population cannot read or write (unlike Azir). Having spren decide is poorly defined. Which spren for starters? And finally, who would be proposing these systems? It's not like there is some committee of darkeyes. Any changes in any political system typically come from some form of elites, in this particular case, current ruling class wants to institute changes. You keep saying it will be modern democracy, but that is just speculation on your part.

...ehm, Roman Republic is quite literally the longest lasting republic in history. That is by definition special. Indeed it wasn't top down, however there are other situations (aforementioned Reform Act of 1832 ) where it was done successfully top down. Didn't you argue that you cannot just give democracy to people who aren't used to it, because they don't have experience? EDIT: Sorry my bad, mistook different persons argument for yours. Here we have people who had no prior experience, regime change was done in unstable circumstances, and result was the longest lasting republic in history. So, why would it not work if introduced top down? Lack of experience cannot be it, neither can lack of will or instability of circumstances. Lack of desire likely not as well, darkeyes are quite keen on having a say and with Radiants now have considerable martial (and political) power behind them. From pure demographics, there are more Darkeyed Radiants than not. So ruler is for change towards more democratic system, the large majority of society is, including martial powers. The main opponents is the old gentry, however they all lost their powerbase (Alethkar) and the ones most opposed were killed. Seems to me like relatively good situation for introducing the reform (though likely not as expansive as Jasnah would like).

That is because Kaladin is in those moments intentionally trying to act like Wit did to him...and it does not really work.

And the rest of my point was that there was historical precedence for successfully introducing a new system, transition from Roman Kingdom to Roman Republic. One that is so far longer lasting than US.

Not liking something is fine...pretending it is objectively bad is not. Citation needed that Oaths are always good. There is a reason honor cultures are...not good. You might have also noticed that some characters do keep to their Oaths, and that is portrayed as good (Kaladin), so the moral is clearly not: "Oaths bad" as you so reductively say. Social context matters. If you are conditioned to believe that following Oaths is the most important thing to do, and you believe those Oaths deep down, it is difficult to abandon them. You have a head and your opinion, sure. No one is stopping you. What is the 'subversion' really then? Just because you thought theme of a story is something based on first 40% of it, does not mean you were correct.

Books often setup a theme to subvert it later, to explore it more in full. This is exactly what happened here. And even in first few books Oaths are not presented as unequivocally good, there is a reason Skybreakers and Dustbringers are opponents, Oaths alone don't guarantee anything about goodness or divinity. This book just drives that home, Oaths alone, divorced from context of human reality, are rarely if ever good. And sometimes, renouncing an Oath and trying something else is the good thing to do. If you took that away from WaT, I don't know what to tell you. It's less that, and more: "Realize that the contest wouldn't actually resolve and change anything, and in fact plays into TOdium's hands." Sticking to a plan when situation changed would be stupid. And it being Gavinor was not necessary, any innocent would achieve the same effect on Dalinar, as the book explains. Gavinor was just a twist of the knife. It was the discussion between Dalinar and Taravangian from Oathbringer played out, does the end justify the means? Of course Dalinar couldn't kill an innocent. What superpowers? The same ones that any Shardbearer could get (with minor upgrades)?

I do, in two characters: Flashback Szeth and his intense desire to do the 'right' thing, and fear of making a mistake/wrong thing. That is something I have somewhat grown out of, but sometimes is still there. Renarin and his social anxiety That one hit exactly on the spot. Some of his internal monologues on how people know what to do, what to say; or trying to frantically figure out their body language so he know what to expect...Yeah, that was spot on for my experience. So altogether, on 'functionally autistic' front, I think he did well, at least for some presentations.

It lasted nearly 5 centuries, nearly twice as long as US so far. Why would they not be good example? Yes, that is exactly what I was saying in my post? Oh, we do know? And how do we know that? Do you happen to have some time machine? Because previously in Sanderson's work, when a scholar-turned-politician tried to implement his ideas on democratic governance, it backfired spectacularly. Why do you assume here it will go smoothly? Especially when already there is backlash against more mild reforms.

Huh, true I haven't considered that. Thanks!

No there wasn't. Most governors were selected by King, and most offices were filled by that appointed governor. Lower assembly legislators were voted for, but all they could do was basically set tax. And on top of that, the only people who could vote were white males, older than 21 years who were property owners. Also, both French and Russian revolutions were that, revolutions. That is different from top down reform, which is what Jasnah is doing as absolute monarch. Historically, there are few examples of monarch willingly ceding power. Not fully comparable but you can look at Reform Act of 1832 in England, which did widely extend the right to vote and 'democratized' the system at the expanse of pre-existing gentry. Historically, you can look at Roman Republic, which did start with overthrowing Roman Kingdom and had no prior democratic governance, and ended up lasting circa 5 centuries. So yes, it can work out, though suffrage likely must be limited (like it was in US colonies). Russian revolution was more akin to civil war, there were even on the side of revolutions multiple sides fighting each other. Far cry from top down reform. Maybe wait how it plays out before criticizing. So far, the only reform Jasnah did push through (freeing slaves) did not end up doing much, due to economical problems.

No, not yet. Frankly they didn't have any reason to do so. Warform, Stormform and Direform carapace is comparable or stronger than Alethi steel armor, so they are sufficiently protected against regular weapons. And against Shardblade, more armor won't help. But as Shardplate shows, they are willing to put on additional armor if it makes a difference.

I think this is less similar to Allomancy, and more due to Sibling not being a Shard. Their power is not omnipresent, but only around their physical location. I think it is multiple factors that let her do this: She is daughter of Herald as you say, and CS and their offspring are more 'maleable'. Her DID (if it is that) makes her well suited to assuming other Identities. She touched Drehy's Cognitive flame back in Oathbringer I think? Which let her experience what is it like to be Drehy (i.e. his Identity). So she is more changeable, has experience with other Identities, and directly experience this Identity previously. It is confirmation that it is theoretically possible to shift Identity, but likely very difficult. Szeth's injury is not like Shardblade injury, and I don't think those heal with time at all (someone would have noticed if that was the case). It is more like what happened to Wax in BoM, he died, but his soul did not yet pass to Beyond so could be re-attached. (Though Szeth was likely a bit more separated from his body than Wax was). I doubt that, and Szeth case has no information relevant to it, as he never suffered wound to soul. Likely yes, but in tiny amounts. Humans leak energy all the time (thermal radiation), so spren giving off 'Investiture radiation' is likely. It is not enough to be relevant in most cases, but enough to be metabolized by specialized organism (like those living on the White Sand). It is possible that life sense works on similar principles. I think this method could also steal fragments of Spiritweb, as gemstones are better at holding Investiture than metal (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522/#e16311) and we saw spren be spiked by gemstones in Shinovar. Plus Battar was working in Taravangian's secrets hospitals, giving her ample opportunity to practice at Hemalurgy. So I think it is nearly the same as Scadrian Hemalurgy, but using somewhat better medium. We can only guess at why, but we do know that Shards can have numbers associated with them. 16 is generally powerful as it is the number of Shards. 10 would be good as it is the number of Honor/Tanavast and so represents binding. 9 is number of Odium, and so would not be good to use when trying to bind it. (Could also be another reason why Heralds were driven mad, as 9 abandoned it). Makes sense, from TSM we know that even on very Invested worlds, humans rarely surpass ~3 BEUs. I think this is less formalized way of what happens at Well of Ascension, both TLR and Vin took up power of the Well, which is Shardpool of Preservation, which then slowly refilled. So same principle here I think, but Preservation possibly modified it so that it is only temporary. Alternatively, you need power of Connection (which both Ishar and BAM have) to make the 'mini-Ascension' permanent. While yes, they would also be restricted by Harmony's Intent. Plus they likely don't have knowledge to make it permanent, and Harmony could take it back (Odium likely couldn't due to Shard being against it, and him being first bound on Braize and then not knowing where BAM is). Makes sense, we already saw that Jasnah's used Stormlight only to heal itself fast in combat. I'll add that this also explains Kaladin's 'atium' moment in the Duel in WoR, with dodging. He was likely drawing on the same power, as a sort of echo of his future as Herald. Likely, also them going against Oathpact would diminish them. Similar to Radiant Oaths, but more free flowing, then gated. Ishar had to use the stolen power of Odium, so it still likely requires large infusion of Investiture. Likely yes. Also, it is notable that so far the only being killed with anti-light were Fused, pure Odium Honorspren, nearly pure Honor (created as counterpart to Cultivationspren) It is likely that e.g. Cryptics would also survive as Enlightened spren do, with their Honor-part being burned away, but Cultivation part remaining. I mean, Taln in Azir moves fast enough that the sonic boom shatters windows. And Taln at full power was confirmed as unbeatable one on one (i.e. beyond Fullborn).

Quite likely given what we know, but Shardbearer or 4th Oath Radiant are faster than most tanks up to WW2. And Scadrial does not have any antitank weapons. On topic of armor vs bullets: Ned Kelly in 1880s used 6mm iron cold wrought armor, that made him fully bulletproof. Iron has much worse properties for armor, circa 3-4mm of quality steel would do the same job. In WW1 both sides experimented with armor for soldiers, but it was deemed not cost effective. Some armor was still used, which was very effective against shrapnel, and steel breastplates were also effective against bullets. Data was even gathered which showed that armor was effective in protecting soldiers from rifle and machine gun bullets in 34 % of the time. Primary limitation was cost and added weight. Weight is non-factor to Regals, as they are already much stronger than humans. Cost is less of a factor as they already have some in-built armor (which is apparently comparable to steel plate) and soulcasting makes it relatively cheaper. Even relatively light weight armor (~4 kg) was capable of stopping pistol rounds, and heavier 20kg was capable of stopping rifle rounds. German "lobster" armor using steel plates weight at 12 kg, and was capable of stopping full powered rifle rounds from range of circa 250 meters. So to sum up, yes armor is effective against guns, but for humans the added weight renders it unsuitable (and expensive). Regals have already in build equivalent of light armor, rendering them heavily shielded against small arms fire and shrapnel, and slightly against rifles and machine guns. If on top of that you give them regular steel plate armor, you can make them highly resistant against both rifles and machine gun fire as well. In addition, if Scadrian forces would be using aluminum bullets, even "light" armor would be capable of stopping such rounds, due to worse penetrative capabilities of such ammunition. Using non-aluminum ammo is not advisable, as that could be affected by repulsor or attractor fabrials, making aiming much more difficult.