therunner

Yeah, there is a lot of WoBs, difficult to keep track of it. Agreed that the WoB talks specifically about Age, but I do think the argument would generalize to other attributes as well. Health will also not make you physically in better shape, despite that being 'more ideal' in some sense, so spiritweb contains some template of your 'natural' way of being, and any deviation that originates in PR or CR will get some measure of pushback. But I do admit it is extrapolation of the WoB, though in my opinion relatively conservative one. Hopefully Era 3 will give us more to work with.

That wouldn't matter. So long as Rashek has basically any amount of Youth to store, he can compound himself as much as he want (provided sufficient access to Atium). E.g. even if he could store only 1 minute of Youth, he could compound it to a year worth of storage in just 6 compounding cycles (burn -> store). 1 second of stored Youth could be compounded to more than that in just 8 cycles. Not to mention, so long as he has Atiummind with some storage, ha can simply compound that one. The only reason he'd die is that even with Compounding he is unable to generate enough Investiture to overcome the diminishing returns. Actually we do have evidence, there is literally a WoB on that: It is specifically about Atium and youth, however the argument that spiritweb knows what it is supposed to be and is pushing against any change should hold for many attributes. Interestingly, it would suggest that F-Gold is exempt from this inefficiency (as it is just about returning body to this platonic ideal of how it should be).

I wouldn't say he was necessarily healing better than Radiant, 3rd Oath Shallan got crossbow bolt lodged in her head and was mostly functional. Similarly, Kaladin kicked Shardplate hard enough to crack it and throw it aside (dozens of lashings), and his broken bones immediately healed, compare to Miles dropping ~10 meters and healing as he lands. Still at 3rd Oath he was healing severed spine fast enough that it was nearly fully restored in the space between two stabs, that is milisecond scale. Now extrapolate these two Oaths up. He certainly had more control over it, choosing how quickly to tap, which so far Radiants haven't showed. In WoBs Brandon also puts these two on basically the same level Of course, Heralds might heal worse than Radiants, at least the healing provided by Honorblades is strictly inferior (no spirit healing + much less efficient).

Well, some Inquisitors have healing, and neither of this happened. It seemed they simply healed as if the spikes were their usual part of body. But then again, Inquisitors were Hemalurgic Constructs, not just people with spikes. I would expect they would be pushed out, though it might depend on the perception. But I don't think healing would let you revert any warping, as that seems to me the function of how the added attribute actually manifests (spike Pewter, you get more muscles, spike senses from dogs, you end up dog-like (Chimeras)). Removal of the warping would also remove the beneficial effect. Kandra's Blessings are somehow special spikes + Kandra are shapeshifters with large control of their biology, so they can likely subsume any changes spikes are forcing on their body.

Nuking would be certainly lethal, since the metalminds themselves would simply vaporize from the heat. No metalminds, no healing.

I sort of agree, sort of disagree. I see it that Ruin+Preservation is inherently unstable combination, due to opposing Intents of the Shards. They can be held in artificial stasis through inaction (Harmony) or they can be used in opposition (?), leading to Discord, who will be capable of acting, but likely with unpleasant consequences. Whereas there is nothing inherently unstable about Honor+Odium, but Taravangian is not suitable wielder of the now-expanding Shard of Honor. If Honor was still the same as during Tanavast's reign, I don't think Taravangian would have issues as Retribution, he is perfectly willing to keep his word and is careful how he positions himself, which is sufficient to placate the Shard. But now that Honor is evolving, his inherent dishonesty/dishonor will eventually lead him to trouble. So I agree that Taravangian won't be stable holder of the Shards, but that is due to Taravangian, not the powers themselves. This is different from Harmony, where Sazed is good holder of the Shards, but the Shards are poor match.

...then you agree with me that liking homosexuality to murder is bad comparison? I am sorry, but if you make broad statements like " Morality is just the aesthetics of prideful priests.", and then in the same breath literally describe your moral outlook, you are being myopic...or you consider yourself to be a prideful priest. So it was less an argument, and more an observation on the contradictory nature of your statements. Definition of the word universal Including, relating to, or affecting all members of the class or group under consideration; applicable in all cases: synonym: general. If all human societies independently came to conclusion that killing of in-group members is bad, that renders if universal moral value by definition of the words, and hence leads to existence of the concept of murder in the first place. Commonality matters in a sense of setting universal baseline, in the same sense that scientific fact is something that exists independently of human culture, whereas religion does not. To personal morality, commonality matters little. To discuss morality in broader setting, commonality across cultures can set baseline expectations. Sure why not. But if you want to discuss morality (as you stated previously), your personal opposition to some line of argumentation is not an argument on its own. You don't have to like something for it to be valid argument, otherwise we are just discussing our preferences and nothing else. Which is also fine, however you seemed to be interested in deeper discussion

So he didn't trust anyone enough to give them to them, yet left them lying around for literally anyone to just take? That is not particularly consistent reasoning. That is likelier, but does not explain the other half of the powers (Feruchemy). So Personally, I would also find it somewhat cheap if another character from Era 1 survived. Yeah, and no one does. Spook is Mistborn, but not Fullborn (and cannot become one, due to limits on Hemalurgy after Catecedre). And remember that Southerns don't know how Bands work at all, and would really like to be able to study them. So Alik's opinion is likely not accurate.

Well poked! Nothing to do but concede. Haven't read full TSM in a while, so didn't recall this passage. I think that this could be different, in that you initiate process before falling asleep, and then it simply continues.

I don't think that would work, but in order not to divert a thread I created this post I don't think it makes sense for Kelsier/proto-Ghostbloods to create BoM, and then never improve on their design or make use of them. Unless they somehow lost them quickly after creation, but how would that happen? There are a lot of mysteries around them. I would almost think that Kelsier was not actually involved in their creation at all, but this pesky WoB seems to rule it out (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314-salt-lake-city-signing/#e8921), though you could argue it was just someone posing as The Sovereign and Brandon simply does not want to give away that reveal. I hypothesized that Bands contain Mists, and that Mistings/Ferrings fueled with Mists can use all Metalborn abilities (it being basically question of Intent of how to shape the Investiture)

In TSM we have seen that by that point in timeline, Scadrians invented medallions/metalminds that can forcibly make you 'tap' them, in the weight bracelets put on Nomad. It was quickly speculated that forcible storing would also be possible (usually discussed in context of creating Identity-free spikes). However, thought occurred to me that it might not be so simple. The reason is that Investing something/someone is generally rather easy, we have many examples Giving Breath (which can also be weaponized as done by Vasher) Various Lashings on Roshar Sharing heat on Canticle between Threnodites (and other invited people) Metalminds and Fabrials of Scadrial Notably most of these require physical contact (with exception of some Lashings, which can be thrown in form of 'liquid' Investiture...wasteful Rosharans just throwing Investiture around), likely due to requisite Connection that is strong enough. So this establishes that giving Investiture is relatively easy. Removal of Investiture from a person seems to be much more difficult, basically coming down to Leechers and Larkin, both of which can seemingly affect only kinetic Investiture in most cases From this side, we can look at what the weight bracelets did to Nomad as a form of what giving Breaths is, infusion of Investiture, just this one is coded as 'weight', i.e. metalmind is not directly acting on Nomad it is acting on stored Investiture and giving it away. The reason why SoScad airships can store weight via fabrial, is that the fabrial is part of the ship, and as such effectively stores its own weight. As such, I posit that metalminds/medallions that force you to store an attribute don't exist, because that would require them to act on attributes that don't have proper Identity. The person would have to somehow see the fabrial as part of themselves in order for it to function.

At first I thought this too, but based on this WoB you might steal wrong thing with Hemalurgy if you are not careful So if you can accidentally steal some other attribute/power, it means that it is sufficient to have Intent about doing Hemalurgy on this specific person perhaps? And then any Bindpoint works? Or if just Intent to perform Hemalurgy is enough, would it mean that if your bullet misses, but hits someone else, you spike that person? I expect with Era 3 we will finally more about Intent and how it works with Metallic Arts, but till then fun speculation abounds.

What are you even trying to say here? All you are saying are circular definitions, things are wrong because they are wrong. Those are empty statements. Question is, why do people consider those things to be wrong, not the mere fact that they consider them as such. Mine are roughly speaking care-based ethics, i.e. behaviours that promote healthy relationships and well-being of individuals, and their interdependance. Everyone has morality, calling it 'aestethics of prideful priests' is myopic. Also, I would say that most people can agree that they desire 'beautiful' or 'good' world, the problem comes from the fact that what is 'beautiful' or 'good' changes from person to person. That does not preclude trying to find more universal moral reasoning. E.g. killing or betraying your kin is considered bad in basically every culture we know of, hence it is a (nearly) universal moral value. Homophobia by contrast, is not. Understanding that your morality is not universal is healthy standpoint, however that does not mean that we have to embrace moral relativism, again some rules are...laughable I would say. For example, having your left-hand as dominant was considered morally wrong/sinful for quite large part of history in Europe (not just there, but let's focus on just that area), and people were forcibly converted to right-handed. Today, in most of the same countries, that is no longer the case, and in fact forcing left-handed person to use right hand would be likely considered as assault on them. My question is, how is that different from trying to impose heteronormative behavior on homosexual person? If trying to forcibly change hand dominance is now recognized as bad, why is it not bad with sexuality?

That is not correct. The 'eye for an eye' principle is about reciprocal justice, i.e. punishment must be proportional to crime. It dates back to Code of Hammurabi, and it was about limits on retribution/retaliation, not about doing something for the damaged party. Hebrew law it was then extended to ability to pay proportionally to damage for any crime except murder (which was still punishable by death, in accordance with 'eye for an eye' principle). So no, it was in fact about retribution, and it was not about doing something for the damaged party.

I sincerely doubt any discussion will be less flawed, likely none of the people engaging with it are philosophers or moral scholars, so we will simply re-tread already existing argument. You cannot have morality without imposition of some frame. Some are more arbitrary than others, but all moral approaches come down to some choice of frame. That is a circular definition, you are saying murder is wrong because it is wrong. I am not mislead, I simply don't see the comparison as valid in any way, shape or form. I could see analogy with e.g. polygamy, as that is also violation of sexual norms between adults. But murder is altogether different category (as I note, it is nearly universal taboo, whereas same sex relationships are not).

My point was more that there is not such thing as 'dragonness', species is the entire sum of its parts, there is no single 'specieness' component of spiritweb you could spike out. So you would have to hack together some facsimile of it, it would never be natural thing. Being on Shard level can alter spiritwebs to such an extent they form different species (see Kandra or Koloss), but such level of change is like asking human geneticist to design a treatment that will alter human genome to a dog one, that is beyond the scope of any mortal without killing the subject. Being male/female are natural facet of human biology, so is variety of gender expressions. And transperson is not fully equivalent to the cisperson, e.g. they have different chromosomes and sex organs (I won't bring intersex people into this discussion), meaning for some medical purposes you have to consider their biological sex, not social/psychological gender. So trans people are distinct from cis people. That does not make their identity any less valid, but to pretend there is no distinction is simply wrong. And being a different species is not the same thing, by a long shot. See various 'trans-racial' activists for something far closer to gender, that is already considered to be not valid.

In some worlds yes, but large part of Sanderson's writing is that limitations are the interesting thing about magic. Forgery is limited by the requirement of plausibility of the change. And changing physical form is different from changing species, e.g. butterfly cannot become a man, because their spirits (in the Cosmere sense) are completely different. Even changing gender is quite large change for Forgery, and that is just a single facet of individual One, I would say that spiking to change species like that is impossible, based on what we know. Spikes move discrete pieces of Investiture, and the changes they do are invasive and if physical, deform the subject. Someone with a e.g. Misting spike is not the same as natural misting, spiritually speaking. So you couldn't become dragon proper, only spiked facsimile of one. Such Forgery could be done, provided you did the whole setup in the first place. But it would likely be very brittle, and if anything acted on those Forged spike, the entirety would break. Plus, you would have to create all those pieces of soul the Hemalurgy would have taken, so you likely would have had to understand the process quite well. At which point the question is why not do it directly then? And it wouldn't constitute actual change of species, as again, Hemalurgy won't do that.

I'd put myself in 2 then, I don't really see any reason why it shouldn't be there. It is the same as Shallan-Adolin, or Navani-Dalinar romance, it's just another romance. On what basis do you believe that thought? Because if you are fine with other romance, but not this one, then that is quite simply bigoted viewpoint. That is gigantically large false equivalency, and not in the magnitude of wrongness. Murder is considered wrong basically universally (meaning in-group murder, outside of ritualized sanctioned killings), and the reasoning is quite simple by murdering someone you take away their right to anything, you violate their personal integrity in the largest way possible. What does someone else being in same-sex relationship take away? I.e. why is it wrong? Just feeling something is wrong does not necessarily make it so (and conversely of course).

I think she just opportunistically seized the moment, triggering her pre-existing plans. She clearly had plans for Scadrial even before (religion of Trellagism and mentions of Trell), and with other Shard being distracted by Retribution, it makes sense to make use of that distraction. Likely she does not, what with her general expansion of powerbase via Avatars. Currently Autonomy has impact on the greatest number of worlds in Cosmere, so she likely wants to maintain that power for herself.

Because changing like that is impossible. And Forgery won't help, because the change has to be plausible past. There is nothing plausible about being born as different species, so you cannot forge yourself into a dragon. Being aetherbound requires bond with another being, something you couldn't simply fake with Forgery (maybe the parasitic form). So Forgery to Elantrian is likely the only one of those that is possible, and even than only for very few (with some pre-existing Connection to Sel) What are some examples of those myriad solutions? How would you address the inherent power imbalance between Invested person and those without? Or between dragon and a person? What about spren? Do Returned count as their previous identity for purpose of inheritance? Is Nightblood a citizen? If so, what about other Awakened constructs? There are numerous issues to address.

It is not as insane, simply because hitting a bind points is really difficult. Not for nothing is hemalurgy done on restrained subjects. The only examples of someone being spiked in a fight were both guided by Ruin (Spook with Pewter, and Marsh spiking that Atium misting), regular person won't be able to do that, especially not with a gun, most people are not Wax (and I doubt even he is sufficiently precise for this to be reliable tactic). So theoretically yes, it is insane. Practically, no, because basically no one is precise enough to take advantage of that on the fly. (Note that you couldn't even use Atium to guide the spike, since Aluminum wouldn't show up ). @JustQuestin2004 I sincerely doubt that will be the case. For one, TSM spoiler Edit: From a Doylist perspective, Brandon has already nerfed things that ended up distorting things too much (Compounding not being possible for Hemalurgists) so there is no reason to expect that this power would be exception.

I meant POV example of someone tapping F-Steel, all these others are from other people, not directly from the person tapping. TLR could be tapping other attributes, so we cannot make definite statements on F-steel. Ditto for Inquisitor Paalm/Bleeder is not human, and we know Kandra can alter their physiology, so theoretically she could alter her biology to deal with heightened speed, and e.g. still reason and act as usual.

How would he use Nicrosil to invest himself permanently? Nicrosil is still Feruchemy, he would have to be tapping + Compound, it would likely be far less efficient than what he is doing with Atium. The WoBs is that Heralds varied, so it could be that Heralds between Aharietam and Night of Sorrows were less Invested then Elantrians..most of the time (Ishar with power from the Well of Control was likely far more Invested) With the Oathpact restored, they likely jumped up on how Invested they are. And Honor talking about them being too Invested is back when Oathpact was still fully in place. That too likely plays a role. Plus Elantrians seem to be acting as living conduits for Dor, constantly channeling to restore their bodies, so basically non-stop drawing in Investiture.

Stick is clearly unstoppable juggernaut of mental fortitude, whereas Moash changes opinions and allegiances whenever it suits him. So Stick.

Well if we are at point were we are giving Wax anything and everything Scadrial has, then clearly Wax is outclassed. Shardplate is still relevant into Era 4 Cosmere, that alone suggests that Era 2 tech is simply not up to par. He is barely a Mistborn, weak enough that he literally does not notice it for days. You cannot shoot out of bubble with any accuracy, that is one of their main features, bullets ricochet randomly, so no, he couldn't. Not to mention, his bendalloy bubbles would likely barely compress time at all, certainly not to extent Wayne is doing (who has decades of practice mind you). Kaladin would defeat Vin when just on 3rd Oath , Wax is nowhere near that, and Kaladin is now 5th Ideal. In a straightup fight, Surgebinders outclass Metalborn quite hard. It would let him do what he already does, just more often (i.e. tap weight massively to put more weight behind his pushes), it wouldn't qualitatively change what he can push on. He is still more practiced with it than Wax is with Mistborn powers, who he barely realized he has. Nale is also among 10 best warriors on the entire planet, with literal millennia of experience, who also is aware of Plate and its limitations. Wax, isn't and does not know anything about Plate. Kaladin was easily fighting multiple Fused seconds after getting the Plate, so he is still quite good with it.