therunner

I remember it being difficult for him, but I think he ended up succeeding? Either way, Eshonai proves that it is possible.

Assuming new Oathpact is holding them together as @Jult pointed out, the Ghostblood have to: Get Nigthblood It is likely the only thing capable of killing even Heralds Anti-Investiture might work, but you would need far larger quantities, if it would work at all. Figure out a way to actually hit Herald This is where they likely find out they cannot do it. Insensate Taln casually catches darts out of air and moves like on F-Steel, Nale when trying just a bit moves like Atium + F-steel, Ishar is chapter for himself, Kaladin showed atium-like powers before he even became Herald. Likely best bet is to simply overwhelm them, throwing enough bodies at the Herald to distract them, and then strike. But that is beyond Ghostblood capabilities from what we have seen. ??? Profit TL;DR: I don't think it is doable with just Ghostblood resources. They simply don't have anyway to reliably kill someone who is TLR-level in capabilies, and Heralds don't have the weakness Rashek did.

As seen from Eshonai in WoR, and Kaladin in RoW, physical act of breathing is not necessary to get in Stormlight, it is the Intent to breathe it in. So this would likely not work at all, similarly to how Allomancer body can start burning metals to keep them alive, the Intent to breathe in Stormlight to save themselves would be likely sufficient. EDIT: WoB on the subject

Except it is clear that aluminum doesn't disrupt healing in several cm radius around itself, nor does it block or interfere with steel lines or other Investited objects in such a radius. Otherwise you wouldn't have to stab Radiant or Fused with aluminum, just have them near it, and nothing like that was ever described. Aluminum possibly disrupting cognitive powers with certain field effect does not mean it also block healing in same radius. EDIT: E.g. Aluminum doesn't block Returned from coming back to life, they would just be alive but with the wound Merely being in blood wouldn't cause paralysis, meaning blackbane has to be further absorbed by the body. Where aluminum dust won't be able to follow.

I don't think that would work that way. Aluminum dust would prevent only healing near it (even with field effect, which seems to be extremely short ranged), however it wouldn't get absorbed the way blackbane would. And once absorbed, it would no longer be near aluminum, and so healing would take over. Edit: Just use aluminum rounds and you are basically near 1-3, like with 1st Oath Radiant, as Mistborn are even more fragile, even if they are a bit more agile. At least for base 8 metals.

The Set count as Scadrian, because (while provided power by foreign Shard), their methods and goals are largely set by themselves. In TLM we see that there is large amount of infighting and jostling for power, where you can depose the leadesrhip if you prove your goals/methods are the better way (i.e. Telsin and her rockets vs breeding experiments vs Hemalurgic experiments). Outside of providing power to the leader, Autonomy seems relatively hands-off with them, and the goals and methodology are set by Scadrians. The Ghostbloods on the other hand are explicitly controlled by someone of Scadrian heritage (Iyatil), under frequent supervision by Scadrian (Kelsier, up until RoW giving them direct orders on what to achieve, such as seizing Oathgates or kidnapping Kalak), so both their goals and their methods are frequently decided by Scadrians. I.e. Ghostbloods would likely not choose to kidnap Kalak by themselves, if Kelsier didn't explicitly want him. Ashyn was destroyed after two Shards turned it into their battle ground. First Odium arrived and started providing them with Surges and formenting conflict, and then Tanavast joined in to oppose Rayse. Then Ashyn was destroyed, as the Shards provided the people with ever escalating amounts of power. Notably, what happened on Ashyn lead to Tanavast and Rayse making a deal that limited the amount of power they can provide their mortal servants, so that this doesn't happen again.

I don't think this is accurate. It would be like saying Mistborn won't have experience with their powers, because the first Nobles who got Lerasium from Rashek didn't. Current protagonist crop of Radiants are first in millennia, so they have to rediscover everything by hand. But as we can see by those that follow them, they progress much faster, because they have someone to teach them. I.e. most Windrunners of 1st and 2nd Oath will be about as skilled with their powers as squires are in RoW and WaT, so much more than Kaladin in TWoK. Additionally, spren now have easier time crossing from CR into PR (as seen from Notum in WAT), so they would be much better at teaching their Radiant about what is happening, than spren in earlier books. This is incorrect. For regular functioning the living plate is powered from SR, but for healing it can draw upon Radiants Stormlight to speed up the process. This is seen in Jasnah's battle scenes in RoW, where at first she is explicitly stopping the Plate from healing faster, so that the Fused don't realize she is KR and not just Shardbearer.

They are called Unclaimed Hills, because you know, as far as everyone on Roshar knows, no one lives there. Rosharans by this point don't even know that Singers even ever existed, it has been 2000 years since sealing of BAM. So this is not a sign of humans of Roshar ignoring Singers claim, they just don't know about Singers at all. No, Gavilar did genuinely think Listeners will be happy their gods are being brought back. If he didn't think that, he has no reason to tell it to Eshonai. He didn't start with that, because believes in Knights Radiant and such are basically heretical, so wanting to get them back (through getting back Heralds and singer gods) would be considered heretical in his society. He is still a piece of crem, but he was actually being genuine. Except for the 2500 years between Aharietam and False Desolation, where humans and Singers did both exist on Roshar, and were aware of each other. And notably, False Desolation only started when BAM decided to get high on Odium juice and start providing forms of Power. Which is something LIsteners disagreed with, which is why they left the False Desolation. Sealing of BAM was meant to only deprive Singers of Forms of Power, the lobotomization was unintended side-effect. Gavilar though the summoning of singer gods will be a boon to listeners, so from his perspective the negotiations were valid. Of course, he was wrong, and in fact it invalidated the negotiations. But maybe the Singers shouldn't react by immediately hiring an assassin. Or if they did, maybe they should have tried and explained themselves, which they didn't. Elhokar even sent envoys to them and they still didn't explain, if I recall correctly. Ultimately, Listeners assassinated foreign head of state (illegal/illegitimate act no matter how you slice it), left 3 people who admitted to it, and then shut down any attempts at talks. Even non-Alethi would react with war to that. Instead of believing any such assumptions with no evidence, they could still try to explain themselves. If it won't work, their situation won't be worse, but if it does they can avoid war.

There is not reason for Windrunner plate to need wings. Jets use wings because that is how they generate lift, Windrunnes just use Surges, so wings are completely pointless. So for increasing aerodynamics of the plate you need relatively minor modification of the outside shape, and as seem from Adolin's Unoathed Plate, living Plate can do much more than that.

I think Mistborn change heavily depending on Metals available. E.g. Vin with addition of Duralumin was certainly killing more than just 8 people at once. Also Mistborn + Atium is completely different ball game, suddenly jumping up to possibly hundreds to thousands, if they have enough Atium. Basically, I suspect that a large part of the scaling is, "How much Investiture is available?" From the provided numbers, and what Hazekillers are in context of Cosmere, I think it is pretty clear the equipment is considered to be non-modern weapons. And weigheing Hazekillers by their physical ability and skill is pointless in this exercise, you just need them to be reasonably physically fit and skilled with their tools, i.e. they are representative of semi-regular soldiers. I.e. exactly what was stated in OP It does give you certain baseline, i.e. if non-Invested army needs circa 10x the number to beat the Invested one type A, and 30 of Invested one type B, than Invested Type A should need about 3x the number to beat Invested type B, provided their specific skills don't function as good counter. But it can be a starting point for discussion. Good example of outlier to this ranking would be Chromium mistings. Hazekiller coef 1, but more dangerous than non-Invested soldier against Invested soldiers, even if not by much.

If your greed leads to your people accumulating so much wealth getting attacked and eaten by dragon is regular occurrence, you might have a problem with greed. Notably 4 of the 7 dwarven rings were lost because they got eaten by dragons. Arkenstone specifically yes, that was Thorin's personal failing. But it is emblematic of greed that is overall dwarven failing. And that makes them unsuitable as being Ringbearer for One Ring, as it would augment their greed and they would not want to part with it.

While dwarves proved resistant to direct control, they rings still fueled their greed and amplified it, driving them to ruin nonetheless. So the dwarves were susceptible to influence of the Rings, just not to direct control. The One Ring, being even more powerful, could do that and use that greed to manipulate the dwarf. Again, it tried to lure Sam with dreams of gardening, not trying to control Sam directly. Dwarves are provably susceptible to lure of riches, see what Arkenstone did to dwarves, and that was just jewel. As such, Hobbits still remain the people with the best track record of resisting the influence of the One Ring, at the time of meeting in Rivendell.

I'll do errata of my answer to this, since i misunderstood the question (my fault for answering early in the morning ) So this line of argumentation doesn't really make sense, because protagonists blast don't rely on the antagonists just doing nothing. Rayse How are protagonist plans disrupted by Rayse acting in his own interest? His plans are 1) Conquer lands 2) get free, and protagonist continuously try to hinder those goals. Taravangian Protagonists plans are disrupted by him yes, however in both cases it is a surprising development, they couldn't have anticipated The mildly demented king being traitorous mastermind That same person killing a Vessel and Ascending to Shard The Set Wax doesn't really make any plans that would ignore the Set in the room It is true that in all of these the protagonists are more reactionary, than pro-active like the crew in TFE. True, however Frodo already carried the ring from the Shire to Rivendell (something that was not planned if I recall correctly) and resisted the Ring. His uncle also had the ring for decades and didn't succumb. So based on that evidence, it is reasonable to choose him as ringbearer, because there are really no other better options. So the plan does take into account the main danger, the Ring itself, and tries to mitigate it. Kelsier plan doesn't really have any way of dealing with the main danger, that being TLR and his Inquisitors. I still wouldn't say the comparison is very fair, due to very different roles of those characters in the story. But I haven't read the books in a while, so I won't argue this point further, as I very well might be wrong. The problem is that the plan ignores the elephant in the room, that being TLR and his Inquisitors + Atium. They think there is massive Atium cache in the city. They know that TLR and Steel Inquisitors are Mistborn, plus have some additional powers that make them nigh-unkillable. They know Mistborn + Atium = unkillable one-man army The reasonable conclusion is that TLR and Steel Inquisitors have access to such amounts of Atium, they basically cannot be stopped. So any plan to take Luthadel by necessity has to have some way of getting them out of the way, if it wants to succeed. And Kelsier's plan simply doesn't have that. He didn't figure out how to use Eleventh metal, and the plan basically comes down to "throw bodies at them until they run out of metals and die" which is terrible plan. How many Skaa would die before they simply give up trying to attack them, when they cannot even touch them, due to Atium? While being soothed or rioted by TLR/Inquisitors as well to demoralize them? And Kelsier knows how dangerous Atium makes you, even when you have just few months of experience being Mistborn, and TLR and Inquisitors have literal centuries. Kelsier simply made a bad plan that dooms anyone involved to death, barring literal miracle. All that final plan might accomplish (if TLR didn't simply kill every Skaa in Luthadel, which he very well might) is that Skaa would now have religion worshiping Kelsier, which might incite them to further actions in the future. Which to me simply doesn't seem worth it. (EDIT: The plan being bad is due to Kelsier underestimating power of TLR and Inquisitors, and thinking stories about them are basically just cons (like he planned to do with himself).) But from perspective of megalomaniac wanting to get back at TLR? Then it is valid, if sub-optimal way to achieve that. Taking a city that is not the center of power at least gives them time to fortify, unlike Luthadel where the enemies are both inside and out.

No, he very much knows he can anticipate events, as you yourself state, he managed to block 3 blaster bolts while blindfolded. Still safer to rebel far away from center of power than inside it. Again, no TLR and far fewer Steel inquisitors far from Luthadel. Just because they act in their own interest does not make their plans bad, just selfish. And Taravangian does cooperate and mislead people to betray them at key time to advance himself, something e.g. Venture could certainly do. Hobbit was corrupted after holding on to the ring for literal decades. Compare and contrast with Isildur. ...seriously did you compare Vin to Denethor??? Vin is the cynical one from her vs Kelsier? I saw Rosharan character (and somehow their people as whole) judged quite harshly for actions that characters in Mistborn do as well. So I pointed out the double standard, and here we are. Since you know, saying Rosharan will enslave Scadrial and there is no hope for them, when Scadrians do a perfectly good job enslaving themselves, experimenting on themselves, selling themselves etc., is perfectly consistent position. The last round starting with me pointing out that Kelsier literally does the same (and worse) crimes some Rosharan protagonists do, like trading people, treating his subordinates as tools (up to and including trying to kill them just to make a point) or indiscriminate slaughter. And that the final plan is one where he gives people false hope to get them to act, and then puts them into dangerous situations with no reasonable expectation that it will work out (as he had no plan to deal with TLR and Steel Inquisitors). And now Kelsier is being compared to Luke Skywalker - in-universe moral pillar who redeems what is thought to be unredeemable, and wins by explicitly not giving into his anger and hate Contrast with Kelsier who gleefuly gives in to his hate Gandalf - literal angel-analogue sent to middle-earth to help against darkness Contrast with Kelsier who didn't care about plight of Skaa until he was personally affected (unlike his own brother Marsh) so...yeah. The Ring seems to capable of also manipulating its bearers with using their desires against them, see how it tries to sway Sam with promises of turning Mordor into huge gardens. So it is possible it would try and sway dwarf by appealing to their greed (look at all these orcs that will mine for you!), and that is why i put them as more corruptible.

You can certainly incite people to action, even if the actions is something they find desirable. If Kelsier didn't incite Skaa to rebellion, they would have already rebelled. But they needed certain push, inciting incident, if you will. I am not saying Kelsier introduces violence to this situation, I am saying that Kelsier repeatedly creates situations where he gives Skaa false hope (by faking powers that are supernatural even in Scadrial context), and Skaa acting on that hope will get them killed. Sure, maybe some Skaa find getting killed in failed rebellion preferable, but if so, why didn't those people already try to rebel? No, but him manipulating people to take leap of faith based on false information, Kelsier knows is false, is something that uncomplicated hero most certainly would not do. And the other situations you put forward are quite different Luke Skywalker turns off targeting computer because: Previous attack run showed that targeting computers are not sufficient (pilot used, and the missiles still missed the vent) He knows he has supernatural power that lets him anticipate events and react faster than otherwise possible If he doesn't hit they are all dead Was it a leap of faith? Yes, but based on correct information he had, not false information like the one Kelsier gave Skaa (twice). It also doesn't create the situation of mortal danger for the participant, they are already in do or die situation. Skaa, while their conditions are horrible, are not in do or die situation (though you can certainly make argument that death is preferable to slavery). Finally, there are not other viable alternatives available, so this leap of faith is all that is left to the hero. Skaa certainly have alternatives, i.e. rebel anywhere but the capital city that contains immortal super-Mistborn (TLR), his semi-immortal super-mistborn servants (Inquisitors) and a lot of Atium they control. Gandalf plan is certainly desperate gambit, but once again, all better options have failed. From 5 Istari only Gandalf and Saruman remain active, and they are unable to act directly to stop the rising darkness Men have proven corruptible (cannot trust them with the Ring) and their kingdoms are in disrepair and ceding ground to very weakened Mordor Elves are on their way out, and no less corruptible than men Dwarf are more corruptible than men Previous attempt to destroy Sauron with direct military action failed So based on the above, Gandalf cannot make a plan that relies on men, elves or dwarves to handle the ring, and cannot hope to make direct assault on Mordor. Additionally, without destroying the Ring, Sauron will continue to be a power. I.e. Gandalf has to make a plan to destroy the Ring, but it cannot be direct military action, nor can it rely on men, elves and dwarves. In the light of those constraints, plan to send a sneaky team with Hobbit bearing the Ring seems like a reasonable conclusion. Was it an incredibly risky plan? Yes. Was it among the better (if not the best) options left available? Also yes. Again, contrast with Kelsier final plan: Luthadel contains several super-Mistborn, and they control large horde of Atium. Atium lets them kill literal hundreds, even if just relatively small beads. Conclusion: Skaa revolt in Luthadel is doomed to be slaughtered, unless you can take either Atium out or somehow kill all the super-Mistborn (all of whom are thought to be immortal). Luthadel is heart of the empire, i.e. important symbol, any rebellion there would invite huge disproportionate response. Conclusion: Skaa revolt in Luthadel is much more risky than in other cities. Based on the above, revolt in Luthadel is horrible plan and there are better alternatives. Of course that is only if you plan to win, if you just want to create a figure head of new religion, and a spit in the face of TLR. It was very risky situation, but again Kaladin acted on correct information that he has supernatural powers that make him faster, stronger and heal better, and that he is among the best warriors on the planet (he did kill a Shardbearer even before he got powers, at least he thinks). So trying to hold on to small beachhead to give an army an option to retreat is not impossible. Dangerous, but doable. Again, contrast flaws in Kelsier plan to incite rebellion in Luthadel, which would fail unless someone killed TLR and Inquisitors, neither of which Kelsier knew how to kill when making this plan. I don't say he didn't make any preparations, I am saying his preparations were insufficient and doomed to fail. The plan itself couldn't succeed, due to presence of Steel Inquisitors and TLR, who control Atium horde, none of whom Kelsier knew how to remove from board. This alone shows he simply didn't plan with regard to safety of people he leaves behind. His note to Vin is basically "Didn't figure out how to kill TLR in those years I had, good luck figuring it out in few hours/days before he kills you all!", which is ... not great (yes it is not written like that, but ultimately it comes down to that) Even if somehow they succeeded, they are now besieged in a city with no way out, against nobles in The Final Empire, who have very strong reason to crush this rebellion, and resources to do so. So to sum up, I say Kelsier does not have regard for safety for those he works for, because his final plan is utterly doomed to failure due to: Presence of TLR and Steel Inquisitors + Atium horde -> Everyone rebelling gets horribly slaughtered TLR is removed by literal divine intervention Steel Inquisitors are removed by Marsh, who everyone thinks is dead If Marsh didn't kill Steel Inquisitors, they would have in turn killed Vin before she could kill TLR Atium horde turns out not to be there, something they simply couldn't have known Somehow they overcome problem 1, and take the city. Nobles all across TFE have strong reason to suppress the rebellion, and then fight over the remains. Elend holding the city gives it air of legitimacy in eyes of nobility, giving them time to make plan for defense This is false dichotomy, it wasn't do submitting vs rebellion in Luthadel. They could have rebelled elsewhere, giving them more time to prepare before inevitable attack back. They could have simply tried to lead Skaa in exodus to other parts of world. Or they could have tried to assassinate TLR and his inquisitors before starting rebellion, because unless those are solved, any rebellion in Luthadel will fail. The siege isn't part of Ruin's intervention, so that happens regardless. Hell, if not for Ruin influence, Vin would likely get killed by Zane, as the voice actively told him not to kill her, which started his interest in her. So the intervention was again beneficial to rebellion. And the plan would have failed not because of divine intervention, but because of quite mundane events, nobles doing their best to hold on to power. ...of course? They would fight back against rebellion, that is something any rebellion leader has to take into account. If your plan is in danger because your opponent acts entirely in their own interest, it is a bad plan. Elend is also the reason they even held the city as long as they did, as otherwise Cett and Straff would have no reason not to ally to crush rebellion. Sure, that one he couldn't plan for. Except the plan would have failed because of things that could be predicted namely: Presence of TLR + Steel Inquisitors + atium in city Taken care of by divine intervention + Marsh (who everyone thinks is dead) Nobles acting in their self-interest to put down Skaa rebellion Taken care of by Elend being in power, giving legitimacy to Luthadel government in eyes of other nobles Yeah, Kelsier in Secret History is in my opinion Kelsier at his best. Notably it is also only time when he isn't around people he can manipulate, and just has to do things himself. I think that tells us something about him. From the crew we also spent the most time with Kelsier (outside of Vin), since he is the figurehead and leader, so of course we see him interact with Skaa more. Plus, he off loads a lot of organizational work on Dockson, leaving him time for the meet and greets. Vin cannot interact with Skaa much, because she is playing a role of Noblewoman first, and then is acting primarily as bodyguard/assassin. She is also quite introverted, unlike Kelsier. Sazed is again acting as Terris servant of noble, role which requires him to not interact with skaa much. He then is out of city for a while, and when back acts as advisor primarily. Elend wants to interact with Skaa more, but because of his father cannot. Once he can, he is established as king and doesn't really have time. While speculative, reasonably well supported: By Era 2 he is back in physical body thanks to hemalurgy, and one that goes beyond the applications known in Era 1. He talked to Spook about finding a way to his body. Conclusion: Kelsier and Spook researched hemalurgy.

Oh, I meant specifically in regards to e.g. making realistic plans, and giving serious consideration to lives of people that will be entangled with those plans. I seriously didn't realize until now how similar the modus operandi of his plan to incite Skaa is to his incitement of the army (fake supernatural power -> more fanatical followers). Regarding his stance on nobles he does budge a little bit, and that is among his better moments as a person. But in this discussion it is easy to start slipping towards absolutes. I still like him, but I would not want to be anywhere near any of his plans.

Good apology for the singular act, but not one for his overall behavior or leading to any change in his behavior. I don't think this is an apology, just Kelsier showing sympathy in the moment. Though I do see how it can be read as one. More of a suicide note than an apology. A good apology. If it takes nearly 7000 dead for a character to start doubting their course of action, then they are not defined by doubt or regret, they are a megalomaniac who was confronted with consequences. And I say he does not grow, because he doesn't. His final plan (the one he comes up with after this fiasco) is to once again incite Skaa to rebellion (by again faking a supernatural power, this time a faked resurrection), only this time right in the capital. The rebellion would once again lose, and all of them would be slaughtered, If it were not for things completly beyond Kelsier's control and knowledge: How Atium feruchemy works, that TLR even uses Atium feruchemy That Vin is chosen by Mists, and Inquisitor Kar wants to use her as political pawn (otherwise they would kill her immediately as TLR wanted) Mists entering a building (literal divine intervention) He didn't learn a single thing, when his next plan was basically the same thing all over again, and only things completely beyond his control prevented all Skaa in Luthadel from being slaughtered. I also disagree with this. I do think narrative absolves him partially. It correctly places some blame on Kelsier (through his own voice), because he did intentionally lie to his soldiers to make them believe there are supernatural powers helping them (the whole scene with Demoux) to improve their morale, and this act was partially a consequence of Yeden and soldiers believing this lie. This is unlike deadeye spren and recreance, because there both the knights and the spren acted on the same information. Neither party lied to the other, and the decision was mutual, hence placing blame solely on the knights is wrong. So Yeden and soldiers acting on information that was false and knowingly planted by Kelsier means some of the blame should rest on Kelsier. But, through Mannis, the narrative also pops the bubble of Kelsier's self-importance, as ultimately the soldiers did choose rebellion, and did choose to attack that garrison, even if using false information. With regards to Yeden, he is not talked about much when it comes to responsibility, because he is dead. At most, he is considered just a general part of the dead soldiers. Living instead focus on other living, to see who is to blame. Like modern Rosharans are blamed for actions of their long dead ancestors, by e.g. spren and some readers. Narrative doesn't place responsibility for Moash on Kaladin, because he is in no way responsible for his actions. Kaladin never lied to, or mislead Moash (except keeping his Radiancy secret in TWoK). And it was Moash who incited Kaladin to join the assassination, not the other way around. In fact, Kaladin tried multiple times to talk Moash out of it, which Moash repeatedly chose to ignore. At his lowest he does relent temporarily, but based on previous interactions, it is clear that Moash would choose this course of action regardless, even if it took a different specific form. Also, ending your analysis at the end of TFE conventiently side steps the issue of the fact that rebellion would have failed. In WoA they only hold on to Luthadel, and only because of Elend being a figurehead (and nobles in the Assembly, working behind the scenes on surrender), otherwise other arriving armies would quickly form an alliance to crush the rebellion. I would also like to hear your thought on how Kelsier is uncomplicated, considering he: Wanted to kidnap/trade people Kalak Had not problem killing every man,woman, child in noble households (as seen in prologue, the literal first time we see him) He did start that act by protecting Skaa from rape (good act), but slaughtering every single noble in a household is no longer acting in defense of anyone Treated soldiers in his rebellion as tools, willing to kill them publicly just to make a point Speculative (Along with Spook researched hemalurgy, which requires killing and torture of living subjects) Especially the part about him being willing to ignore consent of others by kidnapping them, trading them in deals.

Your uncomplicated hero who: Wanted to kidnap/trade people Kalak Had not problem killing every man,woman, child in noble households (as seen in prologue, the literal first time we see him) He did start that act by protecting Skaa from rape (good act), but slaughtering every single noble in a household is no longer acting in defense of anyone Treated soldiers in his rebellion as tools, willing to kill them publicly just to make a point Speculative (Along with Spook researched hemalurgy, which requires killing and torture of living subjects) Also didn't you say this about trading and kidnapping people? So, how is he uncomplicated again? At the very least, by your own words, you should judge him quite harshly for his willingness to trade people. Can you quote those apologies? Recall that Kelsier's backup plan, if he failed to kill TLR was to incite all the skaa in Luthadel in rebellion by getting publicly killed and then 'rising' from dead. This is just Kelsier about to go to plan B, and hopefully save some friends. Also him being willing to save Elend there is notable, because it is such a departure for Kelsier. He literally intended to kill Elend before, even when he knew Vin loves him, just because he is born noble. So yay, Kelsier learned that killing people just because of who their parents are is bad, if someone close to him likes them. It was not an example of him shifting his stances as a whole. In The FInal Empire alone no, but in Era 1 as whole? Vin is definitely treated as Kelsier's moral superior. You are missing that fulfilling Mare's dream if functionally impossible. Kelsier does not know about Shards or Well of Ascension, he has no way of fulfilling Mare's dream. He did love Mare, I don't dispute that. But that love was used to fuel his need for vengeance. Killing TLR and overthrowing his regime won't fulfill Mare's dream, but it will fill Kelsiers need for vengeance. Kelsier is very good at lying to others (and himself) to project himself as more 'noble' than he is. No, he dies because he chooses to face TLR and get killed, as part of his plan B to incite skaa in Luthadel to rebellion, with no regard for their safety, or if the plan can actually succeed, because Kelsier doesn't care about people unless he has personal connection to them. This is Kelsier about to put people in danger, not protect them. I love the character, but Kelsier absolutely is self-serving bastard, who has no problem manipulating and using his friends to achieve his goals, nor he has problem getting people killed (ones not involved in his schemes) if it helps achieve his goals. EDIT: This is Kelsier's own thoughts on manipulation

Thanks for correction! The plan a year ago was to release SA6 in 2031, though with current updates on Elantris sequals it is open question how it develops. I do think he is keenly aware of the issue, and is trying to balance his writing process (which requires some off-time from his 'main'series) with the time constraints, but it is likely he will have to do that more aggressively going forward. I.e. we will likely not get Cyberpunk Mistborn Era, at least not one written by him, because there is really little space to fit it in, especially if Elantris slips and gets written only between back-half of Stormlight books. We might get a cyberpunk Mistborn book, because that is something that can be fit in-between Stormlight novels.

To me only partially, because with Rayse the contest would likely work as intended, because he was adamant about keeping to the spirit of the word. But Taravangian threw all that into the wind. But I get what you mean. Not necessarily, they can also communicate via spanreeds. Or figure out how to use spren as seons are used. Also, as Masha is a scholar, I read her being a member of an order headed by Jasnah, as her being a member of scholarly order, not of Elsecallers. Control of Urithiru means ultimately very little, especially without Oathgates. It's just badly accessible city in mountains, with no natural resources or strategic capabilities to speak of. And because Stormlight is gone, Radiants effectively ceased to exist everywhere but Urithiru, with possible exception of Venli's Willshapers. Theoretically he could re-bond some Honorspren and do it that way, as seen from Szeth you can skip Ideals if you are technically ready. Or, the formalized and regulated system of Oaths imposed by Ishar will continue to decay, and his having Plate from multiple species of spren is more akin to wild Surgebinders. Or acting in manner of Windrunners strengthen the Connection enough that due to his Dawnsliver nature he was able to from Plate from them as well. Point being, the windspren do follow him at the end of the book, so they are still bonded to him to some extent, and we have been shown and told that Oath systems is not as rigid as it might first appear. Socially they are certainly not ~1400s, they are closer to early 19th century (if we are talking about Alethi). Their approach to scientific inquiry, relationships, social mobility, all are much more modern than 1400s. And that is just Alethkar, relative backwater that became unified land just 30 years ago.

The WoB doesn't say that Jasnah is opposed to Odium Intent, so it does not support that at all. It does say that having experience of handling emotions would make her good candidate. You know who else had a lot of experience handling strong emotions? Taravangian. Additionally, Jasnah is aligned e.g. with the conflict drive of Odium, she enjoys debate and conflict it brings about, just like the Shard of Odium does (seen in RoW, where the power wanted Sja-Anat and Rayse to argue and debate). And her entire downfall in WAT is caused by the fact she is emotionally driven, despite her rationalizations. Heck, her sparing Renarin in Oathbringer despite all evidence was again purely emotionally driven act. So Jasnah is very much not opposed to Odium in Intent. Accepting that all things end and there is nothing that can be done about that does not make Ati aligned with Ruin, at worst it makes him neutral with respect to the Intent. Someone aligned with Ruin would be someone who wants to actively bring about the end of things. Also, all the vessels volunteered so that is not saying anything. He is considered by other Vessels as kind and heroic, not like Rayse who was despised by others even prior to Ascension. So by all accounts, he was a man who would seem to be among the better candidates to take up insatiable power focused only on destroying things. We even have WoB that Ati fought against the Intent for many years, and channeled it towards entropy and decay, so Ruin as we have seen it was among the less destructive interpretations of it. One direct action in how many millennia? Not exactly very hands-on. I don't think that is the case, if it was Sazed would be unable to do the large changes he did shortly after Ascending, since most of the warping would already have happened. And 2000 years is still 25% of the time Tanavast held Honor, which even on logarithmic scales would not be negligible. Taravangian is very much not example of the latter, he held the Shard for 10 days only. That is far too short an amount of time to see if his approach is sustainable. No, it gets into a question of what would Shard do. Because presuming that a Shard would automatically have goal of ensuring human happiness is not given by any stretch. Again, Ruin, Preservation, Odium, Cultivation, Honor, Whimsy, Dominion, none of these have anything to do with ensuring human happiness, so why would we assume they would have it as goal? Some are actively antithetical to that goal, like Odium. Again, Sazed who did show inclination to ensuring human happiness is unable to do anything just 3 centuries in, due to his Intent. And even when he did act, it backfired. So projecting on the Shard goals you find agreeable, does not mean that Shards could act in that manner, and in fact their Intent would likely drive them to act in ways that are not about human happiness at all. So basically paper-clip maximizer, except for dictatorship? Also, what would the power do, once it found out on some planets it left behind the people no longer behave like it wanted to? And that does not even get to simple fact that Odium as shard would want to stoke conflict, not calm it down, so you would get society which has conflict and passion as inherent components of their make up, not something that would help ensure happiness. Additionally, most Shards cannot do what Ruin and Preservation did on their own: So it is entirely likely that Odium couldn't even create planets in the first place, or if he could he would have to transport beings there anyway. What makes you think non-interventionist Shards would intervene or even could? So again, in my opinion, most Shards are wholly unsuitable to such role, due to their inherent Intent, which would inevitably drive them to act against interest of the populace, or to not interfere overtly at all. The sole exception might be Devotion, but even there is a risk that over time it would come to see all life as equal in love, to disastrous consequences for humankind. On short time-scales, after taking up the Shard, the Shards might be able to act in manner that is aligned with human happiness (assuming somehow that the Vessel is unbiased arbiter of what that means), but even that does not guarantee that its interventions would end up beneficial in the long run (see Sazed and his actions). And most importantly, over time the Vessel would get subsumed by the Intent of the Shard, and so would no longer be capable of acting in interest of the populace. The Intent would be filtered to some extent through the Vessel, but that is only relatively small wiggle room, the core of it is still the same (i.e. Odium is primarily hatred, no matter how much Rayse tried to present himself as Passion). Ultimately the Intent of the Shard changes the person more than the person re-interprets the Intent. EDIT: See e.g. these WoBs on Intent and how it molds the Vessel Intent influencing powers Honor has relatively bad futuresight due to his Intent Some powers are unique to individual Shards

If that would be the case, why is Wax so weak in TLM compared to him holding the Bands? Even if at first perception stopped him from utilizing those powers for years between TLM and BOM, once he realized he can burn other metals, he would have been as powerful as when holding the Bands. And his steel would have been as strong the entire time, which it clearly isn't, as he does not see trace metals.

I think he can, but it will take some practice, if what we see of Shallan is any indication. E.g. it first formed with her satchel inside, then formed with satchel outside but cut the straps (I think?), and finally it formed with some way to attach it. So you likely can get that, but you have to work for it a bit.

I felt that was the point of it. It was supposed to feel like a let-down, because it is such a weaselly dishonorable way of getting around the wording of the contract. Dalinar thought he would get epic heroic duel to save the world, and the readers thought they would get to see 'good' Blackthorn, but instead he got the same choice as in Rathalas: Kill the child for practical victory, at the cost of your own morals Don't kill the child, and effectively lose (I am putting it like this, because that choice ultimately led to Dalinar losing Evi, and himself) Then of course Dalinar takes the third option. I would disagree, from perspective of basically anyone: Kaladin is dead (we know he isn't, but no one else does) and so is Dalinar, which is a huge hit on morale for Coalition And this is 2/3 main characters completely removed from the narrative, which is rather massive All their forces are separated and cannot travel due to lack of functional Oathgates Stormlight is lost, and so they loose the one things that allowed them to hold back Odium, Knights Radiant They may not be personal losses, but strategically this is a complete and utter failure, and the heroes lose nearly everything they gained, outside of their personal growth. We also didn't see him become Skybreakers, but there is several centuries where both can happen, so not really a continuity error. As mentioned above, the Oathgate spren did say they would no longer obey them, and that they are free, so Coalition cannot seal Oathgates. Honor forced him to hold on to the agreement, because it hated Dalinar broke it. Basically Dalinar gambled that the Power would force Taravangian to honor the agreement, even if Dalinar as Vessel broke it.

How can Odium be made to work? It stopped liking Rayse, and we see what happened with Ashyn. And Cultivation would not want to be absolute ruler in first place, it goes against the Intent completely. Cultivation is about nudging and then letting environment do the rest, exactly how she acts and what she describes to Taravangian. What? No, not at all. Ati was chosen because he was not aligned with the Shard's Intent, not because he was. The Vessels wanted someone to keep Ruin in check, and Ati was the best choice according to them. This is also definition of megalomania: "An obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions." To be obsessed requires one to be passionate about something. Except it does not, we are repeatedly told that the Power cares only about Oaths, not any other thing. It is not honor in any human sense of the word, it is about binding things with oaths, and keeping of those oaths. I disagree with your description of the Rosharan Shards: Honor: As Frustration shared, he was heavily skewed by the Shard, and one time he tried to resist it for 'good' the Shard rejected him. He also held the Shard for 2000 years shorter period than either Ruin or Preservation. This shows that even if you manage to resist warping effect, you will simply end up losing Shard. Odium: Power disliked being trapped, because it was forced tranquility. As shown in RoW in the scenes with Sja-Anat, the power of Odium loves conflict and acting from passion. It hates acting in patient controlled fashion, things Rayse forced upon it by agreeing to Tanavast's sealing. This is despite the fact that other than this, Rayse is nearly perfect fit for the Shard. You can see this with Taravangian as well, who was generally rather patient man, and basically immediately after picking up the Shard wants to act now, with no regard for patience. This again shows that you cannot act against inclinations of the Shard for prolonged periods of time, even if it is just choosing inaction. Shard ruler couldn't not act if his subjects went against the Intent. Cultivaton: I don't know where you are getting the was working against the Intent of the Shard. Cultivation personally might oppose war, but did she do anything to stop Desolations? Not really, she mostly stood on the side and let it happen, cultivating select individuals. The viewpoint isn't that Vessels can never disagree with the Shard, it is that overtime it gets more and more difficult until it eventually becomes impossible. Tanavast held the Shard for only 4/5 of the time Ati and Leras did, and already it was very difficult to hold on to himself. And even if you manage to go against the Shard, if you do it over too long a time, or too strongly, it will leave you. So ultimately Vessel must act in accordance of the Intent, or they will be Vessel no longer. I mean, take Sazed. He is not a weak-willed person, he is well-intentioned, and 300 years in, he is basically incapable of acting due to his Intent. I think Brandon has been consistent, it's just that the situations are a bit different and that makes all the difference: Tanavast held the Shard for only ~8000 years, 2000 less than Ati and Leras. Ruin and Preservation being so opposed sort of 'polarized' them, which might have effected the influence they have on vessels (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/167/#e3031 ) Being more in-line with Shards Intent will show less severe warping, because in a sense they are already warped in that direction Rayse was always well in-line with his Odium Intent from the descriptions we have of him Koravellium was also in-line with the Cultivation Intent, preferring to act from behind the scenes with nudges, like Dragons seemingly did on Yolen Ati on the other hand, was chosen specifically because his personality was thought to balance the Shard, acting in opposition to it, and he ended up severely warped This raises several questions: Competent according to whose standards? Whimsy would likely have quite a different understanding of what 'comptence' means, if it even cared about it all. Dominion (based on what we see on Sel) would likely see competence much like Darth Vader does, failure is punishable by death. Benevolent to whom? What if the Vessel is racist? Combined with Cultivation, or Odium you could get quite horrific outcomes, either divinely imposed eugenics programs, or divinely inflamed genocides. What if Shard decided to create government that benefits ecosphere as whole, and as a result culls human population to far lower levels to reduce their negative environmental impact? I can see Devotion going for that, after all, all are equal in love, so benefit of billions of animals outweighs the death of millions of humans. The problem is that Shards don't have morals that resemble those of humans, as Hoid I think put e.g. about Odium "It is divine hatred divorced from anything that would give it context", the same goes for all other Intents, they lack context, and so are all monstrous to some extent. Then however you are arguing not that Shard should rule in longterm, but only setup a system and then enforce it. Basically a hybrid approach, where you start with Taravangian and ideally end with Cultivation. I do think that if such could be done, it might be a reasonable way to go about it. Problem is, some Shards couldn't stop from interfering, e.g. Odium. It is the most hands on Shard we have seen, and even then the Power disliked not being even more active. Conversely, some Shards couldn't interfere too much, e.g. Cultivation, so they woudn't setup the system in the first place. The futuresight is influenced by Shardic Intent, so what the Shards can see is limited by it, and some can see less than others. E.g. Harmony took one large action trying to help people of Basin, giving them fertile environment and hints at technologies, intending this to help them develop faster, and instead it did the opposite. So futuresight is not perfect tool even on Shard level. From the Shards we have seen take active steps on their worlds (Ruin, Preservation, Honor, Odium), who is not a lunatic? The closest is Tanavast I would say, and he is the only one who lost his Shard because of it. The other Shards we have seen don't really interfere much overtly, meaning Cultivation, Endowment and Harmony. Autonomy is kinda in between, because it seems to mostly be hands-off, but sometimes does stuff like incite genocide, which is lunatic behavior in my opinion.