therunner

I see it like this: You have metalmind with Y amount of attribute in it (in the form of Investiture). You burn it, and can burn it as F-metal for X seconds before running out of the stored attribute. The total amount of Investiture/attribute released is 10*Y. hence the rate per second is 10*Y/X to align with allomancy, this rate per second should be mostly constant Additionally, since the Compounders we have seen only ever tapped for their feats, I maintain that the rate per second 10*Y/X must be relatively low (i.e. low multipliers of attribute at most ~10x), and since it should be constant (as that is how allomancy works), then the burn time X must change depending on how charged the metalmind is. I.e. the more charged metalminds burn slower for some reason. I was using the two interchangeably, because the attribute when stored turns into Investiture. I described how I think burning charged metalmind works above, so hopefully that clears any confusion, and we can identify the exact points on which we disagree. I do think it could be picked up, but I do think the multitasking of compounding would be difficult to do, even for someone born to it. I could see it done for some of the less dangerous attributes, or some that don't have much overlap in impact. I think that would still not work. You spent time T1 compounding steel, and you would spend time T2 compound different metal. Then, you use some F-steel to reduce T2 time to T3, but now you have to again compound F-steel for time T4 to get back to amount you had at beginning. So the total time compounding in non-hacky way is T1+T2, and in the second scenario it is T1+T3+T4. What I think is that time T3+T4 > T2. Though thinking about it some more, there is probably a threshold beyond which it does work. Since if you tap F-steel only to double your speed, then T3 = T2/2 (roughly), but T4 will be definitely smaller then T2/2. So I have to concede, it would work. It just took me an embarrassing amount of time to understand Ha this is the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1717) I think. I don't think it would be the same for Compounding, because there you burn the metal and get the attribute end of story. So you don't have a way to just partially draw it out. Then using A-Duralumin is still dangerous since the attribute is expressed. I don't think horseshoe trick can turn, it relies on the momentum you already have. You pull the horseshoe from directly behind you, so it goes directly ahead of you, and you push on horseshoe again behind you, so you move just in line. So you cannot really maneuver with it, and the speed limit would be lower then what Windrunner can (the limit being aerodynamic properties of the thing you use for it). Plus once in air, Reverse Lashing would be viable option. Definitely Windrunner could target horseshoes with Reverse Lashing, horseshoe trick is not viable option. And if they have F-steel then Fullborn can just kill Windrunner no? That is why we moved the discussion to Fullborn minus F-steel. They have what, Electrum and F-zinc? That is it. Which, yes in combination it would work quite well, even if not as well as atium. Electrum is at heart defensive tool, whereas atium is offensive tool. As addressed above, I don't think channeling directly to metalmind is possible when Compounding (burning part). D-tapping would be an interesting option, however there are three problems with it Problem 1: You won't get more of attribute then you put in, so won't help with Compounding. Problem 2: You get giant influx of attribute for incredibly short time (<0.1 seconds), so you cannot really do much with it (maybe with F-steel, F-zinc or F-gold). Problem 3: Since you are tapping, and Duralumin just forcibly makes you tap all at once, there would probably be horrible loss from compression. I agree that based on how size levels/investiture capacity behaves, small metalminds could be superior. Ah, I have trouble discerning that over the text medium, apologies. And Marsh has all that was leftover from Era 1, and is pretty much running out. It is fine I will try to remember to mention you then. As addressed above, horseshoe trick is linear (though if you somehow get ahead, you could use quick burst of F-steel to reposition and start over). And the thread discusses Windrunners specifically, not Skybreakers. Disagree, medallions need to form Connection, metalminds must have Connection to wearer. As we saw in RoW, getting Connected to ground in some way can leech out Investiture within person . Sidenote: For Bondsmith this would be good counter to Fullborn, just do to them what Ishar did, and they are powerless. Provided of course that somehow Bondsmith can touch them fast enough (which is doubtful). Fair, I think now (see above my reasoning on burn rate and compounding) that depending on how invested metalmind is, it would burn either faster or slower somehow. But agreeing to disagree is fair outcome, considering the lack of concrete information. You mean the one about Marasi not tapping? Sure, here it is https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e1902 Nice to have you back, hopefully you will have fun.

Thanks for the WoB! Though, based on this passage (quoted below) it seems to me less like a Connection to their spirit, and more the part of spiritweb that determines what 'healthy' is + ability to match that template.

Could you tell me where is it described as only a little larger than a hand? I was actually trying to find it, but I must have missed it. Also, I have a theory that Bands are fueled directly by Mists stored within it, so it would circumvent a lot of the usual restrictions on medallions. That is however completely speculative, it is more to show where I am coming from. Agree on the metalarmor being handy for Compounder, especially since they could be tapping a little of strength all the time to make it even easier. The only thing I will dispute, is that Full Metalmind won't be a good Shardblade. At best it resists the Investiture cutting property, however it won't have any other properties of Shardblade.

Bands are actually fairly large as far as metalminds go. Most are things like rings, earring, small bracers etc., whereas BoM are repeatedly described as overzised spearhead (Marasi specifically clutches them in two hands). Normal spearheads are ~20 cm long and ~5 wide, larger than most metalminds. And they were described by Wax as the fullest metalminds he has ever seen, even when he is filling his pretty much non-stop. If BoM were not exactly full, they were nearly so.

Bands of Mourning were described as basically full, so we do have one example, and they did nearly run out of the F-steel after few seconds of sonic speeds. So it is concern even for Fullborn. We discussed this one in depth in Fullborn vs thread, Wayne needed 2 weeks to heal 3 bullets. If Miles only compounded two weeks, he would have 20 weeks and could then easily heal 30 bullets, and if he compounded twice he could eat 300 bullets. Basically, what Miles shows is relatively in line with Compounder, but not suggestive of unlimited amounts. After all, we do see him Compound in spare time, and he needs to keep up with robberies to keep himself supplied with Gold for Compounding, so clearly he needs to continue to do so to not run out. The problem is that is seems that once you start burning, the diffusion kind of does not matter? In the sense that if you invest Metalmind only a little, it will act like F-metal for only a short time when burning. So I think it influences neither the speed nor the amount you get (outside of the fact that you get shorted time for Compounding).

Nah, I like the open window, the fresh air helps me think and find loopholes

Thanks Though I will point out that we call atium is alloy of godmetal with regular metal and even some aluminum alloys are detectable via atium/steelsight...soooo, window still open for pure Godmetals to not leave atium shadows?

And same way Windrunners don't have to consume Stormlight from gems. So, are you saying that Mistborn with Dor with savantism cannot win? But has to wait till at least some orders are depowered?

Well, the surface is the only thing about black holes that is observable (and possibly the thing which fully encodes all information about them if the black hole entropy is correct). And it is the surface/volume that spins, not the singularity . And technically we have spin, which is kinda like intrinsic rotation even for points (physicst don't crucify me for this) (and I love the word ringularity ) Thank you!

Presumably somewhere in between 1000-2000 years? TLR seemed to be nearing the limit of what he far he can stretch atium based on some WoBs.

Point can contain quite a lot, if you e.g. create a fiber space above it. Out universe is 4D, but there is a lot of stuff happening over each individual point (multiple field existing and interacting). So from this perspective SR can be 0D, but have a infinite dimensional 'Investiture/Connection' space over it. Physical being cannot go there as they require 4D to exists, but a lot of stuff can still be contained there. He provides the sentence as answer to why people cannot go there. At the end of the day though, Fullborn has no way to get stuff in SR, so this is moot point. And they have no way to attach stuff to their CR representation either, so again they cannot do that. Eh, black holes have surface at the very minimum so they are not a point. Singularity is a point, however it is also possibly just a flaw in the equations.

Yeah, but it would only help with squires, and possibly not even all of them (depending on how much stormlight they have. Ah, true. Thanks for the reminder, I am a bit distracted these days. Anyway, Elsecallers still win easily then, Willshapers possibly too (depends on reaction time). Windrunner can use Reverse Lashing to possibly Immobilize Mistborn (depends on how Reverse Lashing interacts with speed bubbles) if not, dozens of squires are more then even savant could handle ( and I don't consider running away to be handling them). Truthwatchers/Lightweavers can possibly use Illusions to strike at the Mistborn, or at least force him to waste more Investiture on Bendalloy to test the illusions. And if they can create lasers, then bendalloy won't help much (speed of light ftw). Honestly order with Cohesion also have a shot I think, they have plate, and if they can liquefy ground Mistborn will have hard time moving (both with steel/iron and on foot), this depends on terrain though. Gems don't leak in any appriciable amount, they easily last days or weeks. At that point it is no longer a fight really. Windrunner uses up a bit of Stormlight, and if Mistborn runs away, returns it to gems. Mistborn will use up more Dor for bendalloy then Windrunner would. Allomancy is not necessarily less Investiture intensive, it just typically does not have access to more Investiture, being limited by burn rate. Give them mists or pure Investiture, and it can achieve greater effects as we have seen. Forgery uses as much Investiture as you have available, as TLM shows. Any Invested art can use any amount of Investiture, some just naturally don't have access to as much (Forgery, Allomancy) as others (Surgebinding, Aon Dor). And some are more efficient in certain applications, however Bendalloy seems to be quite intensive (metal burns quite fast, which makes sense considering its effect). @alder24 pointed out a good countertactic, use plate to extinguish the fire. Easily done, and since the fire does not burn at superspeed the plate can be moved around fast enough to protect multiple squires. Sure they will get some burns, but that is not enough to kill them. So Mistborn just used up considerable amount of Investiture on tactic that did not kill anyone (or very few).

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you for clarification.

Yeah I mean fluid dynamics. I often see hydrodynamics used for both, so I got confused. Well, question is why is Dor described as plasma, when plasma IRL is charged fluid (and can be either liquid-like or gas-like depending on density), which is not property of Investiture as we know it. Purified Dor can possibly be still the same density wise, only 'calmed down' so to speak.

Yeah but how much do you need is the question? Stormlight healing is clearly very efficient even in early stages, allowing to heal spiritual damage which is noted as being a lot more Investiture intesive. So burns should be 'easy' to heal. And Mistborn can carry what, 10 liters of oil at most? And if squires have pouches of sand to deal with fire, and leather armor/shields to protect from these liquid attacks it helps a lot. Edit: And all of this relies on savantism, which is not a typical thing. And how long till Mistborn runs out? They are using quite intensive power for quite a while, and unlike Windrunners cannot put their Investiture back into some storage. Yeah, and Investiture cannot really be ionized. Dor is only described as 'plasma-like', so most likely high energy liquid, and dangerous on contact typically. Either way, it leaks.

Yep exactly. So if allomancy is hacked to power Feruchemy, then the burn rate would have to adjust to adjust for the new power requirement. I don't think for storing and tapping the same argument applies though. You are always storing some percentage amount of what full attribute is (e.g. 50% of weight, 10% speed, etc.), so storing or tapping faster does not make sense? At least I don't see it.

Thanks! I realized that a second too late, and edited it out

Pretty much all the Dor is in CR, as Odium dragged the Shards there to prevent them from reforming. That is why Sel's magic are region locked, all of them are drawing Investiture from CR, so it is plasma-like. Possibly enough to be classified as liquid (plasma generally is described using liquid dynamics).

I think it might burn faster possibly? The burn rate is proportionally to 'power expenditure' of the effect, so more powerful metals burn faster. However, the issue is how this interacts with the Feruchemical charge (i.e. possibly the burning consumes primarily the feruchemical charg, and not the metal). And thanks for doing this, it is a nice reference point

Well, compounding is the way to fuel Feruchemy from SR directly. At the end of the day you need to get Investiture in you somehow, and that means getting your hands on Investiture either through Invested art (Allomancy), free Investiture (Mists, unkeyed Investiture, etc.) or being powered by Shard directly (like Elend was).

So, Radiant have a lot of water or sand on hand to counter oil? Plate weights somewhere in the neighrbood of 300-400 kilograms, the explosion would not fling them back. Nor would the debris damage them, regular modern armor is enough to shield from debris, plate would not even notice it. And why do you keep giving Mistborn various equipment? Can we start giving some to Radiants? E.g. attractor fabrials? The leaking is not based on physical attributes of the body, but on the spiritweb, that is why Radiants are better at holding in Stormlight at higher Oaths. Vin is also leaking Investiture for example. The liquid vs gaseous could be the difference though. If so, then once Roshar figures out how to condense Stormlight into liquid, Radiants will be much more powerful. Edit: Though apparently Elantrians leak a bit (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77/#e6853) and they are fueled by Dor. So then Dor should leak as well, and so should Mistborn fueled by it.

Ah, so the Mistborn has a lot of acid on hand somehow. And how is he is he tossing the liquid? Because it will get reflected, and unless there is a lot of it, it will end up missing some of the time. I think it leaked as well, they just kept using it fast. And how much of this acid does Mistborn carry? Liters? Because some orders have dozens or more squires. And can we give squires glass armor, or just thick armor in general, since apparently they come prepared with various equipment. Also, object is either fully in or out, so the trick with dynamite won't work. And I doubt it would damage plate, godmetals are heavily resistant. Sure, so at every point in time you would end up being several feet from anyone you want to fight. Sure, they are fast, however they also burn through investiture quick and they have some relatively severe negative drawback from the savantism. For all we know they start aging superfast (as in 10-15x as fast).

Shards are basically big ball of Investiture, quite different from metalmind. Spiritual realm as a whole is just Investiture and Connection based on what we know. I don't think you can just stick a physical object into spiritual realm.

No just no, that is not how spiritual realm works based on everything we know about it. While there is no space there, there must be Connection there. No one ever went there, they just saw into it (Elend at the end of HoA). And while travel through it might be possible, it does not mean you exist there as you would in reality. Jasnah does that while being in cognitive, and has to be there to maintain it. I.e. Fullborn could not do that.

Bendalloy will help Mistborn fight the squires only if the squires are sufficiently separated. And I don't think their stormlight would run out that fast, Mistborn with Investiture will be about as good container of it as squires are. Sure you find the limit, but can you keep that in mind while in the middle of life-and-death fight, especially when you cannot feel pain? People regularly overextend themselves, even professional sportsmen, and this would be far harder. Yeah, but Mistborn cannot fight them as long as he is moving at that speed. He needs to be in the bubble with them. Where are you getting all this from savantism? Bendalloy savantism allows you to shape the bubble after it has been set up, and move it with you (and some unknown negative sideffects), but not to choose to exclude someone that is not how it works. Fullborn would be faster trivially (they also have bendalloy), and F-steel is straight up better then bendalloy for movement.