therunner

Yep exactly. Which both makes all this theory-crafting /vs. battles so fun, but also so frustrating. A lot of the powers are so vaguely defined, that they can be argued to do almost anything, or nothing at the same time, and neither side has much of a case

No, he says this: So bullet time is kind of steel thing, but there is overlap with F-Zinc. That leaves room for only partial speed up of perception (so you don't accidentally kill yourself).

Yeah, that is a bit of an issue. Honestly, I think some of it comes down to 'reader expectations', and that Brandon is still fine tuning what exactly are the properties and limits of individual Metallic arts powers (see the partial inconsistencies between Era 1 and Era 2, or how his answers on possibility of burning Hemalurgic spikes changed over time).

As you mention Marasi in that point was 'tapping everything', so possibly F-Steel + lower level F-Zinc -> what we saw there. F-Zinc does allow observing and processing at high speeds (as seen from Sazed and Wax with BoM), so it could fall within that scope. Possibly she did not need to tap it as much as speed, but who knows. Bleeder is also Kandra, and under some effects of Autonomy, so she is not necessarily good example. But good counterpoint nonetheless. I read that WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398) exactly that while mental speed is increased to some extent, it is not as much as the actual physical speed but reaction time is sped up appropriately. So with F-steel you can subconciously react exactly as fast as you are sped up, but you cannot think and plan and observe equally fast.

Would possibly work, Kaladin was able to create enough of a pressure wall to create pocket in Highstorm (if that was indeed pressure manipulation), so Windrunner can create or negate Hurricane level winds/pressure. Sidenote: F-Steel apparently breaks conservation of energy, so possibly Steel compounder running very fast does not have actually kinetic energy of moving that fast (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11357). This means that Steel alone won't let Ferring/Compounder hit any harder, nor can they throw things at super speeds for massive attack. It also explains why Bleeder was not constantly breaking things by interacting with them at huge speeds (and making them move at those speeds).

You don't dish out any disadvantage to opponent, all they have is opponent who is now faster n-fold. And while F-Steel makes you physically faster, it actually does not make you perceive and think equally fast, so you won't get that much advantage to formulate plans, hit much more precisely etc. See WoB Mental improvement in F-Steel is minor (similar to strength in F-Iron, which we know is insubstantial) - https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11520

26. Be Elantrain, use prep-time to prepare either suppressive effect, or Speed effect. Then, create Aon Dor symbol to leech from Distance, and kill them at leisure. 27. Be Elantrian, use prep-time to replicate effects of Fullborn powers, and fight them (you have advantage since you are Elantrin on top of Fullborn powers).

I think Shardplate is the best space-suit so far in Cosmere. While yes, Feruchemist could store attributes to survive, they would have to tap gold non-stop at quite large rates (healing radiation, lack of pressure), and the rest of attributes they would have to spend years storing to prepare for single trip. I mean, just storing enough breath would take quite a while, not to mention wakefulness (since you can tap/store only when awake so Feruchemist would have to remain conscious for entire trip). With Shardplate you just summon it, close it, and now you need Stormlight mainly to heal lack of Oxygen, being protected from everything else.

Invested Arts are part of person's spiritweb, not physical body. Once you die, the physical body no longer has connection to that spiritweb. What Awakening does is use the Breath as sort of 'fake' soul to make the body (or any physical object) act 'alive'. So since Breath does not bestow Allomancy/Feruchemy, Lifeless would not be allomancer or feruchemist.

No processing speed is how fast you concisously think, not how fast you react. Brandon explicitly stated that F-Zinc does not improve reaction time. In combat, most of the use of F-zinc would require F-steel (and we also see it used in such way). You think up something using F-zinc and then try and execute that. Yes, that is what I said above.

I don't agree with that, you will run into wall eventually. I mean, Wax tapped enough F-zinc to think about multiple options in between two words Edwarn was saying. He tapped like ~100x fold multiplication. And no intuitive leaps to be found. The intuitive leaps is wording not from Brandon, but from the person asking the question, and in response to that Brandon likens user of F-Zinc to Ken Jennings (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398). So it lets you piece together clues fast, but you still have to do the thinking. Brandon himself never describes F-Zinc as allowing intuive leaps, and only ever talks about it in terms of increased processing speed of thought. E.g. F-Zinc user could not come up with Diagram, because all F-zinc gives you is processing speed, whereas Taravangian had actually increased intelligence. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182/#e3845) That I can broadly agree with. Useful for assessing situation outside of immediate combat, helping keep calm and collected, analyzing moves of Windrunner. The second (adjust space and timing) would depend on F-Steel though, since Fullborn could not act on that information without it.

Yeah, but opponent here is also enhanced (Stormlight providing the same plethora of enhancement as A-pewter, without strength but with healing) and can make themselves lighter (quarter lashing upwards). Spook by that point was fighting quite often if I recall right, so while not formally trained he had practice. Yeah, those two would help a lot, especially F-zinc + A-electrum would make it not 'poor man's Atium' but more like 'middle class man Atium'. But my whole point in discussing this is that F-Zinc does not improve reflexes on its own, nor will it let you pick the perfect course of action on its own. It will help a bit, by giving you more space to think about stuff and notice thing about opponent, but that is that. That is something I can agree with, it will give you edge. What I am saying is that it won't turn 50:50 into 99:1, but more like into 65:35.

And I dispute any functional bind point will work, considering other things we know of Hemalurgy.

Soldier who can calmly assess situation will be better than one who can, sure. In immediate life to death fight, that won't be as helpful. And Brandon literally says that F-zinc won't help get better reaction time https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398 , so it is not that.

That alone does not mean you can spike the donor anywhere and have it work. From what we know there are 3 parts to Hemalurgy: Intent, Spike, Bind-point. You need specific Intent, specific spike and specific Bind point.

Except we never saw F-zinc being used that way. What we did see is that your conscious thoughts are sped up. Not unconscious processing time, not how quickly signals propagate, only conscious processing. Both Sazed and Wax only ever show that, and when actually needing to act on those thoughts need to tap F-steel. And majority of time will still be spent on movement so without F-steel, F-zinc shaves off fractions of second at best, anything a minor speed or reflex improvement completely negates. (or just natural variation) It is useful, but it won't make you act perfectly or help with anything else but conscious thoughts. And if Windrunner has ability to act on windcurrents, and so reacts before the movements become apparent, + enhances their movements that way as well, they get considerable boost to their offensive and defensive ability. Edit: Here Brandon literally says that F-zinc does not change reaction time (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398), and instead likens the F-zinc user to Ken Jennings (not exactly person known for their martial prowess).

Citation needed, all spikes require bind points, and as far as I know Aluminum is not special that way.

No, different bind points do different things, so you need to hit specific bind point otherwise spike won't do what you want it to do (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377/#e12283). And dodging attack vs hitting milimiter sized target is quite a different thing. Atium as shown in books does not let you do that. It can help spiking, that is not the same thing as letting you spike someone while fighting them (which again, only Ruin guided actions ever did, even Inquisitors spiked restrained victims) with 100% accuracy.

Compounding healing can be faster, though that does not make it necessarily better. Miles no longer feels pain, so for all we know when he is tapping usually the sprains/broken bones would still ache a bit afterwards. And yeah, sprain took few moments to heal for 3rd Oath Kaladin, but couple moments later, severed spine also took only few moments to partially heal (space between two stabs). Also notable is that the sprain Kaladin had was only because Stormlight strengthened his body enough that he didn't break bones despite falling. So there Miles would break bones and heal immediately, 3rd Oath Windrunner would not break bones at all (up to some point of course). Perhaps speed of Stormlight healing is proportional to severity of wound? Otherwise it does not make much sense. Thanks, so there all Sazed does is realize the lamp is going to be used as weapon by Marsh, not much of a leap of though. Immediately afterwards he taps F-steel as well, seemingly releasing F-zinc or using both at once. So far we have not yet seen those intuitive leaps, though in battle I don't think those will be useful much? Especially against Windrunner, whose powers are quite obvious.

It could help sure, but that is not the same as being able to do it while fighting. The precision to spike out power is on milimiter scale (considering the amount of bind points in heart for example), and Atium does not grant supernatural precision. Yep., but Atium is not Fortune, for that you need F-chromium.

Fullborn can be stronger than plate, for some time sure, heavier the same (though that will be only useful when pushing against something WIndrunner is holding). Healing is probably on-par (e.g falling 6 meters Miles healed as the legs broke, Kaladin lashing himself multiple times and falling ~1.something meters broke both legs and healed them fast enough no one noticed on 2nd Oath while possibly falling faster and landing harder then Miles did), Kaladin healed having his spine severed multiple times (as in dozens) fast enough that in between two stabs the spine nearly go healed on 3rd Oath. By 5th they will be healing even faster and more efficiently. Chromium won't drain Radiant immediately, it still takes time, and Fullborn never encountered anyone as Invested as Windrunner (maybe compounder tapping massive amounts of attribute, but possibly not even that). (and that requires Fullborn breaking plate first, or WIndrunner not having it summoned for some reason). I do agree that even without F-steel Fullborn has advantages, question is, are they as overwhelming? Also, could you give a page or chapter number for Sazed fighting Marsh? I would like to take a look.

I assumed we expect them to be 'average' in skill, but sure we can expect them both to be extremely skilled. Spook never experienced atium, so he cannot really make that statement with any weight. They were impressive yes, however Windrunner has similar skill as Kaladin in arena showed. Compounded-Chromium is a big wild card, on one hand C-Chromium could beat Atium burner, but it can also be just gut instinct, which is not fool proof (you know something is wrong but not what). I'd say spider-man+daredevil is the closest, with a dash of Flash (pun intended) and limited Magneto. Hulk has strength far beyond what compounder could do for more then second at a time, and Dr. Strange is just completely different ball game. Bondsmith is your Dr.Strange. Do you realize that people don't think about moving? They can plan what they want to do with F-zinc, but the execution will not be sped up in any way, or perfect in any way (A-pewter notwithstanding). I can know exactly what I need to do, and in theory have the physical capability, but that does not mean I will be able to execute it. Again we saw F-Zinc at something like ~100x factor in BoM, and it was not anything like what you are describing. I never said anything about 5th Ideal giving commands to spren to utilize surges. Also, Nale needed to present charges to the Radiant before killing them, and I am not sure if he could deputize his spren in that way (what with recognized nationality). Also, 5th Ideal is still a thing that Radiants achieved, and we have no evidence it would lead to death like you claimed. No it is not moot How Fullborn was created is either born/shardic intervention/lerasium (maybe), TLM spoiler But even if they were born, it would take time before the snapped into their powers, so they would start training soonest at ~15 ish years. Windrunner does have only time from Oath, but I thought we are assuming parity, i.e. Windrunner with equal training time to Fullborn with equal training+compounding time. Windrunner then will always be more skilled in their powerset than Fullborn. Yep, as far as we know contact is necessary for RL, though in RoW it held briefly even after Kaladin broke contact (if I remember right). It is also the least Stormlight intesive, so retrieving it afterwards won't be necessary. Sure Windrunner would get shoved, but they can lash themselves in reaction and counter that push that way. Complete Fullborn yes, that was discussed up until page 4. Then we took away F-steel since most arguments just devolved to 'Fullborn faster', to see how that goes, and then we continued with additional modifiers. And Fullborn is also limited to the metal they can carry on/in person, which limits the amount of attribute they have available at any given moment. How much that is question (I maintain that based on some guesswork + what BoM show, that Fullborn could conceivably carry ~2000 years for all attributes at most).

Surges are not to be underestimated, some are a game changer for this discussion (e.g. Transportation/Gravitation/Transformation). Also, Plate is not easy to hammer through. As seen in WoK, Shardplate can survive multiple super-strong assailants (Warform being 2-3x as strong as human) wailing on it for minutes without fully breaking. I don't think Atium would let you hit bind point. Sure it will show you where opponent will be (unless they are Corrupted truthwatcher), but bind points are very precise things. So far the only incidents of 'in-fight' spiking were done by people guided by Ruin (Spook, Penrod), and the rest were performed in relatively 'clinical' setting. Additionally, Shardbows cannot kill through plate, at least not in one shot. I don't think we have even seen Shardbow being used against Plate. Bondsmits have access to Plate too (most likely formed of Gloryspren):

F-Zinc let's you think faster, but it does not just lead you to optimal moves. It's not Magnus Carlsen having more time, is average chess player having more time to think (which can sometimes be useful, and sometimes not). I don't know, but if it was that simple, then Inquisitors should have realized it trivially soon. Yet somehow they did not, despite having more then a year and Ruin was guiding them. Per WoB Intent is very important https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e850 , so maybe you have to at least know what you are realmatically doing? Yeah with that aspect it would help, however doing it to multiple objects , while still planning? Oh, Mistborn would win in a fight against Misting, but that does not make them more skilled then the Misting in the given metal. 5th Ideal, not Heightening. And no, Radiants did reach in past, and one is actually living at the moment. Nale is of 5th Ideal. You do realize that Windrunner can cancel RL, or drop the item and then start new one? But yeah, it would possibly grant one anchor for Fullborn to use that is attached to Windrunner, temporarily. Since now we are considering Windrunner of 5th ideal without Plate that is a problem. Sure, you can decide to take action in the compressed time, reducing it. However, in combat you don't think about your actions you just do them on instinct (if trained well enough) and F-Zinc won't help there. And against most opponents I would agree it lets you partially predict the move, however, Windrunner has shapeshifting weapon which can vanish and reappaer immediatly (Skipping) which complicates prediction. Limitation for Rioter and Thug both apply to Fullborn no? They cannot train those aspect without other involvement. I agree that Mistborn/Fullborn can focus on synergies, e.g. what Kelsier did with steel/Iron. I just object that they can apply that level of mastery to all or even most of their powers. I don't think it is pointless to point out that ability to split metal-lines is rare and difficult to acquire, much less master. We have seen only two characters that can do it, one who learned it quickly (Kelsier), and one who despite decades of practice only demonstrates it twice to my knowledge (Wax). And both were chosen by a Shard in some sense (Preservation -> 'Survive!' for Kelsier, and Harmony for our favorite Sword). No one else, not even Vin, showed that skill. If we are going in that direction, then Windrunner can do what Kaladin showed in duel, the 'semi-atium' effect of dodging without seeing. It could be partially Investiture related (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9572) and WoK Prime spoilers Kelsier chosen by Preservation? Wax chosen by Harmony? (though steelbubble is shown by others as well). But sure, we can go that way. So Windrunner can create vacuum, or hurricane-level wind currents around themselves (helps with steel pushed items), and has increase ability to dodge via sensing wind nearby. You don't need two shields, just one held in hand off to the side. Fullborn can attack only from front or back, and this will shield from both. So Windrunner can use concrete building to get a respite from Fullborn and plan ahead. You do realize Windrunner can move and is not blind? Also, why not create RL with range ~2 meters at most but great strength? Then this tactic would not be feasible. Sure it would not be fool-proof, but it would work well enough to let Windrunner bum-rush Fullborn with Shardblade. Ah, good point on selectivity. Though you would have to store and compound A-Tin senses, which however should not be issue. Then you can leave spren to guard the building, they are invisible. Though spren have no way to signal back to Radiant :/ 2 years to master 2 powers? What? Starting to master powers takes 2 years, and even then you cannot still do stuff like e.g. steelbubble. In 6 years Fullborn will be at most like Kel with steel/iron (and that is if they have natural talent for it), and one or two other metals. With rest they will be 'basic' user who can use the 'basic' functionality but nothing fancy. In 6 years Windrunner will be more skilled then Kaladin is by a long shot.

I don't think so actually, we know that they are not immune to wind resistance, and at ~2000m/s, they would start burning up very fast, and their metalminds would melt. Fullborn could mitigate some of it, but still only up to a point. From reader's/writers perspective, if BoM was to give us a taste of what Fullborn can be like, then the authorial intent seems to be that even low Machs are a lot for Compunder. But I am incredibly excited to see what they can pull off actually (and to have some precise numbers!)