therunner

No Lightweavers can transport themselves into Shadesmar, it is mentioned in RoW (chapter 22) They can slip there themselves, but they cannot bring anyone with, nor can they get back. So on its own not very useful except as emergency escape.

But we do have short description of what is happening. E.g. metal is shaking and breaking apart. If non-metal was affected you would think Marasi would mention it, because that would be a big deal. Thanks for the correction. No that is not how it works. When you burn Duralumin all other metals are burned in the instant, but Duralumin is not consumed like that. Well that depends. If strength of Allomancer is based on how much Investiture they get from burning metal, then all Allomancers are equally strong when using Dor because then this is no longer a factor. I don't think it would be near that, but we have no data. Leecher would certainly not drain it instantly, leeching is not instantaneous (it only appears to be because Allomancers typically have so little metal in them). And if leeching is not instantaneous, than its paired alloy should not be either. So Nicroburst would also not be able to help burn it up all at once. Incidentally, this is why I think Duralumin (and Aluminum) would also not use up all the Investiture in one big outburst. The other two metals enhancements metals are not instantaneous.

Yeah this is true. I referenced it at the end of my post, but forgot to edit the earlier part. But unless Mists actively enhance your Allomancy, they are just Dor like (which we have seen in TLM), or less (if as some claim Dor is more concentrated form of Investiture than gaseous one). But as you point out, having more Dor does not make you stronger, you just have larger reserves. That is basically what I am thinking. Which would make her poor example. Well yeah, but at the end it is still temporary Ascension. At that point 'being Mistborn' is secondary factor to the power. And I think you could use Allomancy-like effects even if you are not Allomancer. When wielding Well you can literally move planets, pushing on metal or emotions is trivial in comparison, so wielder of Well could do anything Mistborn can do without being Mistborn themselves. Ehm, vaster means larger. So the reserves were getting both stronger and larger/greater, literally according to the segment you quoted. So she is both getting stronger in Allomancy, and she has more reserves to draw from. I do think it is both of those things in a sense, but only because her consuming Mists is her Ascending. They are one and the same. Either way, her Ascending spoils the data. Edit: And yes, we can agree to disagree They were compared to TLR's Allomancy by people who have never experienced TLR, not the most reliable sources. Not to mention that both cannot be true, Bands are clearly vastly more powerful than Dor-fueled Allomancy. On top of that, BoM themselves are quite a mystery, and possibly enhance Investiture levels via Feruchemy. If we allow other Invested Arts to enhance metalborn, then we can include them, however I was under the impression that we are considering only Mistborn with no 'external' help outside of fuel. If we do take that as possibility, then yes weaker concrete with steel reinforcement could be possibly broken. And Vin did not explode stones directly, metal pushed into the stones destroyed them. As far as I recall she did not push on any non-metal even when Ascending, though it was probably within her abilities, but Intent would limit her. A lot of those structures are sturdier than you give them credit for I think. Especially building build to tolerate earthquakes would bear that additional stress well. Maybe if the Mistborn stood in the middle of all of those columns, and pushed outwards with Duralumin so that they would be braced. But that would be suicidal move. To me the most reliable 'peak' Allomancy is either Vin or Elend with Duralumin, and/or Allomancers wielding Dor at the end of TLM. Other events either other Invested Arts are involved (nearly anything Wax does, BoM) or the person is Ascending to a Shard when performing those feats.

Thanks for those quotes, I stand corrected. I will point out that in all of those scenarios it is two allomancers matching strength, not allomancer pushing on environment. How power would factor into Allomancer pushing on environment, so that it is the heavier object which is moved I don't know how would work. Which is again when she is Ascending, and is again demonstration of how she is breaking relatively fundamental rules of Allomancy. Would it? Duralumin enhances regular Allomancy because suddenly you are drawing much more Investiture from SR than when burning, like an extreme version of flaring. But with Dor, you are already using as much Investiture as you have available. Mists are not supercharged fuel, they are just gaseous Investiture just like Stormlight. She was doing (when drawing on Mists) similar thing to what they do with Dor at the end of TLM. Of course, she was also Ascending, which we know enhances and expands the user. All the moments quoted from HoA happen in at most 5 minutes in which Vin goes from 'Strong Allomancer' to 'Shard'. She is getting stronger every second as she is drawing more and more Mist into her. Wielding full power of Well of Ascension is literal temporary Ascension. That is why Rashek is a Sliver. At that point you are not Mistborn, you are a Shard temporarily. I stand corrected. And I again say that Vin at the end of HoA cannot be considered as an example because she is not just fueled by pure Investiture, but also actively in rather quick process of Ascension. She goes from 'Strong Allomancer' (where she is basically killed by Inqusitors in seconds) to 'Shard' in less than 5 minutes. And I strongly doubt it was just a toggle, i.e. that she was 'just' a strong Allomancer fueled by Mists until the exact moment she vanished. Instead I think it makes more sense that as she is Ascending she is getting stronger all the time, as she is literally absorbing the entire physical manifestation of Preservation. At the start of the fight, shortly after she started drawing in the Mists she describes that her Pushes and Pulls are as strong as Duralumin fueled And shortly afterwards she demonstrates feats far beyond any application of Duralumin, like with the destruction of Kredik Shaw. She is also physically enhanced enough that Inquisitors with F-Steel no longer seem fast to her. And as you yourself quoted she describes how the reserves are getting stronger and vaster: Which from context implies that they are continually getting stronger as she fights. Some wooden building sure. Cinder buildings maybe. Modern concrete structures? I don't think so. Even if we take Vin as upper peak, modern structures would be sturdier than Kredik Shaw, if properly built. Sidenote: I know Duralumin is per WoB usable with kinetic Investiture, but it is kind of odd to me. Duralumin works by burning your metals all at once, and so provides you with more Investiture than you would get, but why would it affect usage of Investiture directly?

No actually that is not true. When Vin matches Kelsier's push in their sparring match she is immediately flung backwards, and only when she flared did Kelsier move. (Chapter 9) And earlier (Ch 7) Kelsier note that if object must be a lot more massive than the other one to stay still, with implication that if objects are close in mass than both will move to some extent. So what happened in the sparring match is perfectly in accordance with rules of Allomancy as explained by Kelsier, since Vin and Kelsier are at least same order of magnitude of mass. But metal and stone tower is hundreds of times heavier than Vin is, so what happened at the end of HoA most certainly is not. As you say, it seemingly does the same as Duralumin enhanced allomancy. We have seen emotional Allomancy with both Dor and Duralumin, and they are comparable. We have seen Bendalloy with Duralumin, and Cadmium with Dor and again the effects seemed comparable (though Wayne was more extreme, most likely due to massive amount of Bendalloy and his possible savantism). So I would expect Dor Steelpush to be about as powerful as your usual Duralumin Steelpush and no more. And that is what I disagree with, I don't think it was Allomancy, more like Ascending Shard channeling power in a way it knew. Wax also has F-Iron, that is important factor. I don't think even Mistborn with Dor would be able to destroy building outright, that is simply too much power. Wax jumped several kilometers, and destroyed unfinished construction. Mistborn without F-Iron won't do even that. Vin breaks rules as stated in that HoA moment. She pushed with so much power to literally crush and break stone and metal tower, and did not immediately fly hundreds of meters up. There was no inertia she had to speak off, so that argument does not make sense. And that is my point. Vin was literally Ascending in that moment. So perhaps the fact that she 'broke the rules' has less to do with lack of understanding, and more to do with the fact that what she was doing was effectively no longer Allomancy and was closer to more fundamental rules of Cosmere, just expressed through 'Allomantic' channel because that is what she knows. I.e. Stormlight spoiler Basically at that point Vin has so much raw power at her disposal that she can do things that no one who is not Ascending will ever reach. TLDR: Taking a feat of someone who is literally Ascending in that moment as upper limit on Invested Art is a bit dubious claim in my opinion. Not much, we know how light works astonishingly well (QED is the single most accurate theory we have ever created).

I think what Vin did there has less to do with Allomancy and more with the fact she was Ascending. She quite clearly violates the most fundamental rule that no one escapes, that only the lighter of the objects (of the pushed objects and Allomancer) moves. The only way around it is to brace somehow, like when coin is on ground, or when Allomancer pushes in both directions simultaneously (like what Dumad did in TLM). In that HoA scene, if Vin pushed out with that much force to break the stone spire, she would have been flown away insanely fast, as in she should probably break orbit. We have seen what Dor can do, and it is nowhere near what Vin did in that scene. Don't get me wrong Dor is probably the best way to create maximum destructiveness steelpush without involving other Invested Arts, but it would not be on that level.

I think he is still figuring it out. But the WoB you quote is 2015 and the one I did is 2021, I would go with the latter one and book released this year. It is possible that Nalthians are more Invested than Scadrians. However, the difference will be less than one Breath, and so relatively inconsequential especially since any passive effects require hundreds of BEUs.

Per Sunlit Man any Cosmere human contains between 1-3 Breaths worth of Investiture. This includes Nalthians, who are should be worth 2 BEUs, presumably. Compared to thousands BEUs, this is minuscule difference. I would assume that most people from Major Shardworlds are Invested to about the same extent. WoB:

Good point, let me see if I can find arguments to defend my assertion. Yumi spoilers: So all of these do follow similar mechanism, as I would guess Dawnshards have to follow some fundamental rules. But the destructiveness of Nightblood, how overwhelmed with Intent he becomes, how restricting him from Investiture weakens his destructive abilities (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e16019), the fact that Endowment was involved in its creation and the fact it killed a Vessel (something I doubt other similar tools could accomplish), all suggest to me that while underlying principles might be the same, Nightblood behaves more closely as a Dawnshard than 'regular' soul sucking.

That is also a good catch, completely missed that. Maybe it works along similar lines of what Ishar did to Radiants in RoW? There he Connected them to the ground, in such a way that their body saw ground as part of them, and as a result Stormlight leeched into ground. In this case, perhaps the Medallion Connects to wearer in such a way that the bracer part is seen as part of the body, and then the Medallion forces the bracers to tap Weight? There is precedent for non-living structures being forced to store at the very least, Malwish ships in Era 2. (if I remember right)

Yeah I think so too. Though I must say that having a bit longer epilogue where Sigzil does have more time to process and grieving truly starts would be an improvement, in my opinion.

Well immediately after Aux's sacrifice Sigzil was fighting to save a bunch of people. That would be a bit of a distraction. And he is basically busy up until he Skips away. Of course he is not actively thinking about it, he has other problems to think about. And honestly, not fully processing and internalizing what just happened is not that uncommon. And precisely because he was with Aux for possibly centuries, it will take him time to adapt that Aux is gone, you don't change those habits in a minute. And he probably already grieved Aux once before, when he nearly fully killed him with Danwshard, so that is also a factor. To me, his reaction and his subdued grief were very on point, as I process things that way too. Emotions are put to the side until problems in front of me are dealt with, then I can start grieving.

Ah, sorry for misunderstanding then. It sounded to me as a stronger assertion than you meant it. Mae culpa. Good reasoning. Though I would point out that unsealed Metalminds do have some Identity, their own: That is what allows users to store/tap even when sleeping. And even the phrasing suggests that Identity can be stronger or weaker. He also mentioned 'completly blanking', which implies partial blanking of Identity is possible. WoB And in BoM ch. 3 VenDell says "...Feruchemist divest himself of all Identity", which again implies you can divest yourself of only a bit of Identity. But it is possible he has not fully decided yet, in some WoBs from ~2018 he avoids answering with the reason being he does not want to lock himself down to mechanics that won't suit what he needs. And to return to my original assertion, here Brandon mentions that blanked person using blanked metalmind will work a bit better than person with Identity using blank metalmind. If there is some friction even on this normal level, it might present complication for Compounding also:

Surge of Adhesion is different from that, it is not just Conenction ability. And Connector Ferring can only effect his own Connections, whereas Spiritual Adhesion/Bondsmith Connection manipulation does not have that restriction. But it does not matter what they store, whatever it is, it cannot just Connect user to other people/planet strongly enough. Connection medallions are not rare, and so they cannot do it.

you can compound unsealed metalminds. Technically that WoB does not say you can compound with unsealed metalmind. Only that you can Compound with metalminds of others if the Identity was messed with in the right way. That can be making them Identity-less, but it can also be overwriting them with Identity of the person who wants to burn them. But I do admit that the first interpretation is more likely. Thanks for that WoB! @alder24 We know nothing of F-aluminum, so saying blank metalminds prove it works like F-Copper is a bit of a stretch. And theoretically it is possible that even F-copper does not store 100%, e.g. very weak left-over remains (but such weak memory could not be really remembered and would lack most of the information).

Even then it implies that just brute forcing at least some kinds of Connection is not easily done. Connection medallions are relatively common already in Era 2, so by Era 4 they should be rather common place, yet Nomad refers to 'rare devices'. So F-Duralumin (at the very least in medallions) is not as versatile/strong as we may have believed.

Hmm...Hateful Ambition, that does sounds quite evil I would say. More so than Ambition alone.

The power it provides is huge, e.g. every Coinshot can suddenly do the same things Bleeder did, every A-Gold Allomancer can heal like Miles, etc. Sure they need to get their hands on metalminds, but those are not necessarily as rare. Allomancers are about 1 in 100 if I remember right, Compounders are rarer than 1 in 1 600 000. And while yes, they would not be true Compounders (since they could not store without Hemalurgy), they would be ~50% way there with access to unkeyed Metalminds. Scadrial is intended as 'Earth' analogue (with of course some things enabled by Invested Arts). I feel Invested Arts on this scale would go against that idea. My feeling of course, though I do consider the fact that Hemalurgy was intentionally weakens by Brandon to be a supportive evidence. Hmm, possibly. Though it is not possible to store 100% of attribute, which could present issues. Also, you would still have to strip Identity from the spike itself, which I don't think F-Aluminum itself would be capable of (as the content of the spike is not 'your' soul). Kelsier wants to do that, but that does not mean he will succeed, especially with Sazed seemingly opposed to those ideas. Medallion tech is a way to democratize at least some of Feruchemy. Same with raw Investiture, it is possible they will have to buy it/steal it from Sel, unless they figure out a way to harness Mists. And to combat future threats they can go more in the direction of mechanized Investiture, like their eventual starships. It is entirely possible that individual Mistings/Ferrings will not get stronger themselves, they will just have better supporting tools. No problem, happens to all of us.

Welcome to Shard! A nice theory I will offer a bit of a dissenting opinion (because apparently that is what I do fro some reason), that will be partially couched in 'meta'-arguments I think this is partially there, in that I think you cannot Compound unkeyed metalminds, but removing Identity is important step. Reason for that is simple, Compounding with unkeyed metalminds would distort the world too much. Unkeyed metalminds are relatively easy to make, so in fully modern society, they would relatively common good. And that leads to problems, because suddenly any Misting or Ferring can be Compounder. The way Brandon restricted Hemalurgy is rather strong suggestion that he does not want Compounders to be too common. But he clearly wants it to be possible, just rather difficult to achieve, as the Ars Arcanum hints at possibility of overcoming this. For that I would propose that to Compound you need two things: Both Allomantic and Feruchemical powers have your Identity only. This means you either have to be born with the powers, or you have to re-key the spike to your Identity, which would involved stripping it of Identity in the first place. The metalmind must be keyed to your Identity. This would be easy, if you can do step one. This is more difficult than just creation of unkeyed metalminds, but theoretically possible with clever application of F-Aluminum (or perhaps F-Duralumin would be needed as well, so that the power is sufficiently strongly Connected to your spiritweb). Sidenote: Workings of Feruchemy and Allomancy did not change, only Hemalurgy. So either Vin could compound in both Eras or none. Personally I think she would be unable to Compound unkeyed metalmind for reason given above.

That makes a lot of sense. Well spotted!

Could it be this one? Though this seems more in line of general atomic properties and their relevance to Metallic Arts will be addressed, not necessarily about alloys.

There can be lag between Arcanum, and actual events. So perhaps he said it in some recording that was not fully transcribed yet.

True. BTW do you have the WoB where Brandon mentioned getting into God Metal Alloys in Era 3? I cannot find it and would like more detail (if there is any). It kinda is, you can achieve the same effect with weighted shoes. Far cheaper option than using God Metal.

No we don't. Not by a long shot. We would have to increase our nuclear arsenal 6000x to have tens of millions of warheads just to approach energy output of the dinosaur wiping asteroid. And even after that Earth remained habitable for smaller species. Humanity is long way off from being able to render planet uninhabitable, we simply don't have the necessary industrial output for that. And even cobalt bombs are not fool proof, and wind conditions basically guarantee there will be locations that are relatively cobalt free. And Night Brigade most certainly is not carrying millions of large nukes, in fact from what Sigzil says their main danger is in their army of Shades. Sigzil calls Shades one of the most dangerous creatures in the Cosmere, and this is a man that was a Knight Radiant and most certainly is aware of Elantrians. Yeah kinda. Interesting combination of eras, could lead to quite fun Era 4.

Actually we cannot do it, even using peak nuclear stockpiles later models suggest that parts of the world would remain habitable, and extinction is unlikely. Hell, models of full nuclear exchange suggest that between 40-60% of US and USSR population would survive. So even tens of thousands of large nuclear warheads are insufficient to wipe out a planet. Threat of extinction was intentionally exaggerated to spur nations to actions, which succeeded. So yeah, it is remarkable. Simple mercenary force in Cosmere where spaceflight is still relatively recent invention is more powerful than entire IRL Earth. Imagine what Rosharan or Scadrian forces must be capable of. Edit: To add some numbers. The total estimated yield of peak nuclear arsenal was 13 000 megatons of TNT. 1815 eruption of Tambora volcano was equivalent to 30 000 megatons of TNT. Toba eruption circa ~75 000 years ago is estimated to be equivalent to 20 000 000 megatons of TNT. And humans survived that.