therunner

Not the same thing. You don't apply the same force to the air and to the wall, if you did you would be pushed back in the same way. What you do is, you move your hand and as a side-effect you push air out of the way. The force required to push air is negligible so you don't really feel any backreaction. If you try to move your hand as you would in the air you won't get pushed back particularly strongly back away from the fall. But Vin clearly does apply force to the coin (since the coin moves with considerable acceleration), and that force does not change whether the coin is in the air or hits the wall. And since the force does not change, neither does the backreaction, and so Vin should be thrown back in both cases, if 3rd Law is to hold unmodified.

True, but Shard breaking Oath has much serious consequences for them (possibly up to Splintering them). But yeah, Endowment was probably the best bet, as she could possibly not take up Dawnshard at all because of her Intent, only give it away.

Yeah, that seems to work, good catch. Though it opens a new can of worms, in that the Investiture stores inside the metalmind have 'momentum' with respect to other observers, but this momentum is always exactly zero with respect to Feruchemist tapping. And this Investiture momentum does not interact with anything else but the Feruchemist (e.g. Wax running into an obstacle, ignores any 'Investiture' momentum of the metalminds).

Except that cannot be true. If that was true, then in Vin's first demonstration she would not be sent violently flying away the moment coin hits the wall. Vin was pushing with the same force on the coin the entire time, but only once the coin hit the wall was she pushed away. So there was a sharp increase in force acting on Vin, despite Vin not actually changing the strength of her push. But per 3rd Newton law, the force acting on her should still be the same. So Newton's 3rd Law does not hold, at least not without modifications.

How did one or two Dawnshards end up on Roshar? Someone carried them there. Similarly, someone could have given it to Endowment. She might not have been able to use it herself (I presume that Vessels would make Oaths not to use Dawnshards since they were very much aware of their capabilites).

Savantism cannot be stolen (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77/#e6816), which makes sense since it is not part of spiritweb, but change to the entire spiritweb as a whole. Similarly, resonance is natural effect of two powers inside the spiritweb. Hemalrugy mostly cannot create it (so your natural power and your spiked power won't create resonance), so most likely because it is this 'non-local' effect you cannot steal it either.

SA, spren seem to feed of Hightstorms, and use Stormlight for healing. Saying that nothing is truly closed system is pointless argument. You can always effectively isolate system, or you can enlarge your system until nothing is outside of it. Then you have closed system and you can apply thermodynamical argument. So Cosmere as a whole, since laws of thermodynamics hold, cannot be PMM. And hence any subsystem of it cannot be PMM. And I am saying that FM was not that. What? PMM is not 'flawed premise', it is a theoretical concept shown to be impossible due to laws of thermodynamics. It is hard to come up with explanation, but laws of thermodynamics hold, that is his statement. That is not true, Pper WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6129) space and time are "compounded into one". SR is primarily spaceless, and in a sense it cannot be timeless because future is not set in Cosmere only probabilistic (or at least it appears as such). Example of this is the fact that Lerasium can rewrite spiritweb from certain time onwards. Another would be the fact that hemalurgy rips pieces of spiritweb off. Spiritweb also somewhat decays after death (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183/#e3910), which is purely SR process, so something like time moves in SR. So my previous statement is wrong, and 2nd law of thermodynamics could plausibly hold even within SR, and usable amount of Investiture could be slowly decreasing. So time is a thing in SR (but not the same as in PR and CR), space is not a thing at all. I mean that hijo splitting does not provide energy. It is just transformation into physical form, like what spren on Roshar do with e.g. Shardblades. And even if it was lower energy state, they can reform via absorbing/consuming energy from their environment. E.g. if there is Investiture field which apparently exist and can sustain Aether constructs.

Burning aluminum is probably a bad idea, since spikes are foreign Investiture as well. You might destroy them, or dislodge the spike from your spiritweb.

If you don't have closed system anything goes. PMM is with reference to closed system. And spirits are part of the system, they are literally forming parts of FM at the point Yumi gets to it. No spirits, no machine. So spirits are inevitably part of the system. And just because it was turned off, does not mean it would not eventually wear down on its own. Since spirits seemingly wear down, and we now that Cognitive entities need to feed on Investiture to remain active, there would probably come a time where there is no more free Investiture for the machine to draw on. Sure it might be trillions of years, but that is inconsequential. Even if it could, there would be losses because the process won't be perfect since 2nd Law of Thermodynamics does hold in Cosmere per WoBs. And so this cannot be PMM. And if it is negligibly not perfect, it cannot be PMM nor lead to one. Plus the WoB directly confirms that light is fueled by decay of Investiture trapped inside gem, so it has a finite source of energy and will eventually terminate. If the analogy is based on a flawed premise I don't see a reason to respond to it. And the WoB confirms that they are not, and are working not via being 'plugged' into SR but by decay of Investiture. So they can only give of so much light before running out. Hence no PMM. I meant infinity in physical quantity. Infinity as a mathematical entity is perfectly fine, and indeed can be useful as intermediary in physical calculations as well. Not exactly, he told us all three laws of thermodynamics does hold, period. You 'just' have to account for Investiture https://wob.coppermind.net/events/397/#e13115 . The difficulty is in figuring out how exactly fudge things with Investiture to keep cool stuff, but not to have major unintended side-effects (like PMM would be). (Coincidentally this also means that Investiture cannot be actually returning into SR in usable form, as it would be breaking 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. It might go back, but because of increase in entropy, free energy will be inevitably lower than before. But since SR lacks time dimension, there are bigger issues there ) I don't think hijo's have to be split to make energy, they just have to form always paired tools. That does not mean they are in lower energy state. And reforming can be done simply by absorbing ambient Investiture field (similar to how Aether constructs require them to maintain coherence once split from Aether), similar to how plants use sunlight to power their growth/regrowth. And since they are just Investiture, they don't need to absorb anything than Investiture to repair themselves.

No worries, I did at at first too and corrected myself only later And both of those are still only estimates, and are in the same ballpark.

Read the new WoB, they don't. Spheres don't glow because of SR, but because Investiture in them decays. So again, they don't function with 100% efficiency, nor do they give out more energy than goes in, so they are not PMM in either sense.

Yeah, no. To make such battery you need infinite energy in the first place, so you cannot make it. The fact that spheres are plugged in to some external source of energy means they are not PMM. They don't function with 100% efficiency, nor do they create give out more energy than goes in. Investiture goes into the sphere, and some of the Investiture in SR is converted into light in PR. Nothing breaks thermodynamics here, and no PMM is present. The only reason that it works 'forever' is that per Brandon Shards are infinite, which however does not make actual sense. I.e. how can you stuff Infinite amount of Investiture into finite space in Sel CR? Either it would have to be infinitely dense (which it clearly isn't, since it is traversable albeit dangerous) or it has to take up infinite space (which it does not). Additionally, infinite amount of Investiture present in CR should by all rights lead to infinite distortion, yet it clearly does not. Edit: Hmm, new WoB from 2022 implies that the glow of spheres is not because it is coming from SR, but because the Investiture is 'decaying' Which means that even a perfect gem will eventually run out of Investiture, it will just take a gigantic amount of time. Compare older WoB from 2015 (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6389). So yeah, sphere are not a source of PMM either, since now the explanation for the light they give off is decay of Investiture. Frankly all of that is simply because people don't realize what infinity actually is, and that it is effectively more of a sign that something is breaking down in your description than physical reality. Once you have infinite quantity somewhere in your description, you are going to end up with huge issues somewhere else. Similar issue arises with the fact that he made CR flat plane, which means that every single planet will have some arbitrary jump in its projection, because you simply cannot map a sphere to a flat plane without discontinuity. TLDR: Thermodynamics holds per Brandon, so that is not the way to PMM. Brandon also won't give one planet infinite energy by accident (limitations are the things that interest him), so spheres won't be usable that way, so that won't be way to PMM either. He will have to come up with some ad-hoc explanation of why not though (end per edit he already did).

Could be? Though I personally see Torment as a result of nature of this particular Dawnshard, and being Connected to all things as part of all Dawnshards. But we don't know enough. Aux says that 1500 BEUs is under 8% Skip capacity, and 6 pages later Nomad says that ~5% Skip capacity is ~1000 BEUs. That is where my 20 000 BEU for 100% Skip came from.

The fact that FM requires spirits to keep running prevents it from being PMM. As we see at the end of Yumi, without access to spirits the machine broke down basically immediately. And spirits form from Investiture of the shattered Shard and reform after being destroyed. Perfect games are also not PMM, the light is coming from SR, i.e. they are hooked up to a power source. In both of the above cases it is energy from SR that creates illusion of PMM. But cut off access to SR, and both of them will stop.

Ah, my mistake then. Oh, definitely. Personally I do think that Elantrians near Elantrins are basically gods. But we see that further away from Elantris they are weaker, with possible exception if they have time to set up local version of Elantris Aon. Eh, not exactly. Returned are basically merged with a spren (Divine Breaths is a splinter just like spren are), which is what provides them bulk of Investiture. But they have to feed to maintain it. Elantrians, on the other hand, are non-stop channeling kinetic Investiture, so the closest analogue would be Radiant standing near opened Perpendicularity, or Herald with Honorblade back when Honor was alive. They don't seem to leak Dor, which is either because Dor does not leak in general, or because the process of being turned into Elantrian changes them into perfect receptacle of kinetic Investiture (like Radiants when they get better at holding Stormlight with higher Oaths). But Elantrians are also un-invested if they are not on Sel. They have to carry Dor with them (either via piping it, like SH, or with Dor jars). The difference is that Elantrians on Sel can tap all the time, but off-Sel they have similar limitation Radiants do. Tress does suggest that there might ways for them to tap into local Investiture, however we Sorceress clearly had a lot of various tools at her disposal, and Hoid is Hoid. In TLM Shai ingests full jar of Dor, so it is possible her full Investment was temporary and conditional on having access to that. Oh it is, Sig states that the Skip ability is due to his spiritweb 'being Connected to all places' as a sideeffect of holding the Dawnshard. Indeed I do suspect that a lot (if not all) of those questions will be RAFO'ed, because he won't want to lock himself into precise answers. Maybe some vague ordering.

For Feruchemy you would probably get Metalmind which two Feruchemists can tap, but each can access only their original stores, and not stores of the other. The Investiture inside is still keyed as it was beforehand. So practically speaking, there would be no advantage to doing this, multiple Feruchemists can already store into a single metalmind and access their own stores back. @Trusk'our as resident Hemalurgist covered this pretty well. Identity would interfere, but there are ways around it.

Agree to disagree, it seems to me he literally just thought through a bunch of scenarios and then speculated a bit about a person he knows rather well. And that is the thing I have problem with. If you can perceive the world around you faster and you can consciously analyze your surrounding and makes conscious choices and plans, than all of your thinking is sped up. There is no 'think about dozens scenarios' kind of thinking that is separate from 'think fast and analyze your situation'. If F-Steel user can consciously analyze his surrounding and make conscious plans based on that, than he can think about other things with that same speed. Conscious thought is conscious thought no matter what you use it for. Fair enough. He could have more Zinc stored, perhaps it is easier to store than F-steel and F-Pewter. Or he relaxed the rate of tapping as needed. Since we don't have pointed out when he stopped tapping, we cannot say with any certainty when he stopped or didn't. I agree, so at least on this we do have consensus. And for me the very same WoB also has answer, the effects are slight and so cannot really do what most expect it to do (i.e. speed up your conscious thought to similar levels as your physical speed is sped up). And we also know that those effects are nowhere near the same order of magnitude as the attribute you are tapping, and are limited in non-intuitive ways (like the resiliency and strength of F-Iron user, which behaves very differently from how it 'should'). Similarly, that is why I think that it is pure increase in reflexive and subconscious thinking (i.e. you/your body can react to stimuli to dodge/hit, but cannot make plans or anything of the sort), and so when sped up you won't be able to perform complex actions. And the issue I have with this is two-fold: What level of increase of perception/consciousness speed is needed to be aware of your surrounding is entirely dependent on your environment. Extreme case of flat plain, you don't need basically any mental enhancement to take advantage of increased speed, humans using supersonic fighter jets proves that. Extreme case of complicated cramped building, you need your mental enhancement to be basically equal in magnitude to your physical speed enhancement. So even if there is increase in conscious mental speed in F-steel, then since it would 'slight' per WoB, there will always be scenarios where you cannot keep up with your surroundings. As stated above, if you can consciously think about your surroundings and make conscious choices/plans based on that, than there is no reason why they cannot think about other things. Making choices necessarily involves considering possible outcomes, i.e. exactly what Wax does with F-Zinc. So if F-steel increases that, it has its effect and part of the effect of F-Zinc. Problem with that is simple, Bleeder is Kandra and they can change their biology, including neurology and perception. She could easily compensate for F-steel using that. What Bleeder seems to exhibit is in fact general increase in mental speed that is on-par with F-steel increase of physical speed. In SoS Ch. 16, when Wax perceives her from Bendalloy bubble, he sees her turn around look at him and shake her head (probably in dissapointment) which suggests that not only is she perceiving the world at equal (or near-equal) speed, but is also capable of abstract though of the same speed. This is inconsistent with the WoB describing the increase as 'slight'. I simply don't see a reason for F-steel to be even more overpowered than it already is. It lets you move and perform simple actions faster than other can see or react, lets you hit harder because of greater velocity and lets Mistborn basically do near-Duralumin level feats without need for Duralumin. Why does it need to also let you do good part of what F-Zinc lets you do? I think we can leave it at that, we won't move anywhere else. @Trusk'our Apologies for derailing the thread. Let me try and re-rail it. My choice of spikes for champion: F-Chromium This should let the champion to just 'happen' to do right decision. Giving them a general slight edge (or large edge if they tapped a lot at once). A-Bendalloy Gives champion breathing space in the middle of battle, lets them reposition/dodge or isolate opponents. For last spike I would go either with A-Steel mobility + long range offensive option A-Pewter general physical enhancement and increased resiliency A-Electrum poor man's atium, nuff said

All Wax did was 'think through dozen scenarios', nowhere does he have 'heureka' moment where he suddenly jumps to non-trivial solution to his problem. He just thinks fast to go through various possibilities and to consider character of his uncle. What part of that is 'intuitive leap' to you? (Just to ensure, I am genuinely curious and this question is not intended in a hostile manner) So, F-steel lets you perceive faster, but not think faster to process that information consciously? If that is your position than I guess I agree. And as I established he was not moving that fast, at around 3x peak human rate. At that point you don't really need to speed up your consciousness it keeps up just fine, like when you are driving a car. How is it wrong? I literally said that he taps F-zinc to speed up thought (he does), and F-steel to move fast (he does), and in one instance he taps both (fight with Marsh). It seems to me that he continued tapping F-zinc, but it is ambiguous. But the ambiguity works both ways, if he continued tapping F-zinc, then his perception would be sped up even when taps F-steel. But what level is that? In an open field you can move at ~100 m/s without worry with no need to speed up perception. Inside a building with lot of turns, you would need to speed up your perception, reflexes and thought process to basically the same level as the speed you are moving. That is a problem, because what level of perception/thought speed is needed to keep up depends entirely on the situation. To not trip on a rock, or run into pole or grab something you need just to perceive it and have good reflexes, you don't need to consciously think about it (in fact you should not even try, consciousness is too slow for that). Then if it is so slight, it is basically useless. And as mentioned, it is a slight increase, so what is that? For every 8x increase in speed you get 100% perception speed? That would be broadly in line with bare minimum strength needed for F-Iron. But again, those additional abilities are not straight up increase in some attribute, they have more limitations as we see with F-Iron, there 'F-Iron strength' is not the same as general physical strength and in fact cannot be leveraged as such (i.e. Wax cannot hold Miles in chokehold using it). The WoB says two things: Compounder might be able to move faster than atium user can process what they are seeing. (bolded text) Atium user is limited by their muscles and things like that. (italics) So all Compounder has to do is move faster than Atium user can react because of their muscle speed, i.e. move fast enough that even that ~1.5 seconds heads up of Atium user is useless. Usain Bolt had peak speed at 44.72 km/h (which is also with equipment designed to maximize his speed and synthetic track made for that purpose, which can add up to 4 km/h), average male can reach peak of ~32 km/h . So average human moving 1.4x faster would should beat Usain Bolt in 100m race, possibly 1.3x would be sufficient if both had the same equipment (or lack of). So all right then, Sazed is moving 4x times as fast as usual, I am sure Sazed can move at ~6 m/s, that is not that fast. Still it is not fast enough that you could not act and react based on your baseline perceptions. And yes, 24 m/s can be blurring speed, as I have demonstrated in the previous post based on human eye biology. Previously in your reply you stated that F-steel does not allow you to think, i.e. make conscious decisions, so which is it?

Interesting idea, and as people before me stated it would work to some extent. Not any aluminum alloy. Duralumin is aluminum alloy and it is not inert to Investiture, someone would note if it was not Pullable/Pushable in Era 1. And the WoB does say ' But any aluminum alloy kind of gets the property of aluminum ', so they most likely don't get all Investiture-relevant properties of aluminum, or they get them only to limited extent. In this context I would note that Duralumin is over 90% Aluminum, and seemingly has no properties of Aluminum at all.

What intuitive leap did Wax in BoM did? I don't recall anything of the sort. Yes, you need to be capable of using or more like, surviving it, but the 'adaption' does not work the same way as increased attribute. F-Iron increases your muscle and bone strength so that you don't crush yourself, and yet Iron Ferrings are no more resistant to damage (that is not from their own body or gravity), nor can they hit with supernatural strength, which is what those adaptation should let them do. F-Iron users are not actually physically stronger when tapping weight, otherwise Wax would be incredible brawler and would easily defeat Miles on top of the train. (just grab Miles and tap weight to increase his strength). The strength F-Iron user gets only lets them resists effects of the weight on their body, and even that is limited (e.g. Sazed describes how "his hands feel like balls of iron on lead arms" in WoA). So clearly the strength enhancement is both limited in what it actually does, and far smaller than the weight enhancement. So the 'adaption' to the power is severely limited in what it actually does, does not necessarily work as you would expect it and is smaller in magnitude than the attribute increase. Similarly F-Steel does not actually need you to perceive the world around you as fast as you move on conscious level to survive it or use it, improved reflexes are sufficient for that. Dodging objects is purely reflexive reaction, you don't think about the movement. In fact, even IRL human thought is too slow when reactions to physical danger/conditions are needed. In the fight in WoA, Sazed specifically taps F-Zinc when he needs to perceive and think fast, and taps F-Steel when he needs to move or react fast. Or he is tapping both at once. Also, if F-steel sped up down perception so much that it would be comparable to F-Zinc, why would Feruchemists label it as 'Physical speed' and not something more accurate? I would be rather careful in what we extrapolate Feruchemy can do, because it often does not work very intuitively once you thinking about 'required secondary powers'. Moving 2-3x as fast as the fastest human is literally inhumanly quick. Sazed covered 20 feet (6 meters) in time it took KenPaar to start cry out alarm. If we take Ruin-possessed KenPaar as having human reaction time, that means Sazed covered 6 meters in 0.25 seconds, that is he moved average of 24 meters per second. Blurring speed is well, vague at best. Human eye can at best kinda sorta track things on ~0.02 second time scale. So if Sazed can move ~0.5 meters in less than 0.02 seconds, that counts as blurring speed (when perceived from the side). That is just 25 m/s. So both of the things he has done in that scene are within scope of Sazed tapping at around 3x rate. And since while tapping he spilled those metalminds on the ground and did not have to wait for them to fall, he could not have been too sped up. If he dropped them from 1 meter, they would take 0.44 seconds to fall. If he was tapping at e.g. 15x fold increase he would have to wait subjective ~7 seconds for them to fall on the ground. He never mentions anything like that. But if he was tapping at 3x rate, they would fall in subjective 1.3 seconds. In a sense yes. But it is very different from having to rummage through a pack. In this case all he had to do is look down and pick up what he needs.

"Kind of overlap", not exactly overlap. F-Zinc does not grant you faster reaction speed for example as WoB says, but lets you perceive and think faster. Again, why would F-steel do 90% of what F-Zinc does (so far we have not really seen any intuitive leaps using F-Zinc, so most use it to just speed up thinking and perception), and grant inhuman speed and improved reaction time on top of that? Not true. If Sazed was tapping at only e.g. 2-3x rate, he could keep up even if his mental processes were not sped up. He would have to be more careful though. And he did not search for them, he dumped everything on the floor and picked up what he needed. He knows all of those metalminds he probably had them for years if not decades, recognizing which ones he needs won't exactly take a long time anyway.

That has nothing to do with F-Steel also speeding up perception. It mentions nothing of the sort. Or F-Zinc was less compressed, or there was more F-Zinc. Multiple possibilities. WoB does not say that, in fact it says there is only slight temporal effect. He likens it to strength gain in F-Iron, and we know that is heavily limited and is nowhere near the same as gain of mass. (and has other limitation, like that you don't hit as hard as you should). So based on that analogy, F-Steel won't increase your perception speed/mental speed to the same extent as your physical speed. So increase might be there, but simply increasing unconscious reflexes would suffice as 'making you capable of using it'. We see F-Zinc in Era 1 and Era 2, it is basically bullet time. And sure there will be other effects, like intuitive leaps etc, but the core is you think and perceive faster, you just cannot move and react at that speed. So if they are complementary, then F-steel lets you move and react fast, but you cannot consciously think or perceive that fast. E.g. you could instinctively catch an arrow or bullet, but you would not consciously notice it until you already caught it.

Actually we don't know that. In Era 1 Sazed must explicitly tap F-Zinc to perceive the world in slow motion, F-Steel just allows him to move at similar speed. In Era 2, Bleeder does have only F-Steel, but she is also Kandra and can change her physiology. Marasi when tapping BoM, 'Taps everything', so she plausibly tapped both F-Steel and F-Zinc. So evidence is more in-line with F-Steel not allowing faster perception to any large degree. It would be odd if F-Steel did like ~80% of what F-Zinc does and granted superhuman speed. Regarding my choice of spikes for champion: F-Chromium This should let the champion to just 'happen' to do right decision. Giving them a general slight edge (or large edge if they tapped a lot at once). A-Bendalloy Gives champion breathing space in the middle of battle, lets them reposition/dodge or isolate opponents. For last spike I would go either with A-Steel mobility + long range offensive option A-Pewter general physical enhancement and increased resiliency A-Electrum poor man's atium, nuff said

Yep, I did verify it. Adolin mentions that Shallan can get herself to Shadesmar, but not back. And that it is lucky that Oathgate spren listen to Stormfather/Dalinar and are allowing them to go to Shadesmar and back, because otherwise they would not have a way there and back.

The WoB above sounds to me like exactly what I said, stronger Allomancers get more Investiture per unit of metal burned, i.e. they use metal more efficiently. Which means that once they are fueled by Dor, this advantage goes away, because there is no metal to burn. Yes, skill would make a difference I never said it would not. Only that strength would be the same. Savantism would be additional factor that I have not considered. So those that used their powers for longer would be tiny bit better, because savantism does not make you strictly stronger.