BenduLuke

In the case of a steel compound twin (Wax burned steel giving him pushes but stored and tapped Iron for mass) where the twin burns and stores to steel their speed would magnify like Miles health magnified because he compounded gold. They could store speed, burn their steelmind to store many times more speed essentially producing an unlimited supply of speed so long as they find some way to mitigate wind resistance which could burn them to death if they move fast enough. They can withstand the G-forces generated. Of course the flip side of that would be that they may be able to tap the speed in their metal minds to magnify any steel pushes creating balistically fast accelerating metal projectiles. They certainly could add their own physical velocity to any metal projectile they push. It really would be the flash with a ranged attack and flight. Maybe they could even launch a Radiant into space by their belt buckle. Only a windrunner or skybreaker could recover from that attack.

For a few moments Talen, my dustbringer host, laughed and said "we need to introduce you to Shallan, to see if you fit with her crew once she returns, because you have real talent." "For now though let's call it a day." I went off to my quarters, and the next morning I arose early to search for metals, or stormlight, with which to soulcast metals. My metal arts had developed in fits and starts. At first I would mirror people unintentionally, so even when I mirrored a feruchemical ability and an allomancy ability based on the same metal, because they usually came from different people, I couldn't generate a resonance between them. In addition eventually the Identities I mirrored to gain abilities would fade or evaporate and I would need to start all over again to acquire them. In time I realized that both problems had the same root, which was the foreign Identity, and if I wanted to retain the abilities as well as create resonances between them, I couldn't just mirror Identities. I had to weave parts of them into my own Identity, and discovering what parts to weave in took allot of time, forcus, and effort on my part, as well as calculated mirroring. You could say my metal arts developed piecemeal. I never had full power use of the mirrored abilities from any one source, be it metalic arts or other abilities. Only after mirroring and weaving abilities from perhaps a dozen individuals did the ability seem to approach full strength, and resonances were still a major challenge to create, except with my native aluminum. I would spend hours even days practicing a new skill or ability to weave it into my Identity permanently. Usually before an ability could be woven in I had to use metals at near a savant producing level or beyond, and without the benefit of developing savant level abilities. Well to be at my best I needed to acquire, one way or another, some metals to use for burning and minds since, I lost most of mine in transition. In addition I needed to get on with developing these new abilities, before they might begin to fade. Once I left the market, with some of the metals I searched for, I made my way to the Lightweavers barracks because they seemed to most closely match my own native talents, and might provide a challenging outlet for them.

I am so new I didn't realize that might be possible. If we did that maybe we should ask him to weigh in on the discussion in general. Who knows even if he doesn't answer some of the ideas might find their way into some of his next books. I could use some critiques of my fan fic, not on the liberties I take with Brandon's world but on the writing in general. I haven't written much yet but would appreciate any feedback. Again not on the liberties i take with his magic system but on the writing. It is called Identity weaver.

agreed

I did open another topic about this before this one opened. I also didn't see this topic excluding mistings and thus not excluding twinborn and with the various references to Wax and Guns clearly Twinborn fit within this topic. As for shear power from my perspective there have been displays of power from Mistborn that rival any display of Power by Radiants. IMHO Radiants are potentially more durable and resilient than most mistborn, but that doesn't mean more powerful. A sufficiently amped up Mistborn can rip the metal right out of your body and that might well be enough to overwhelm even radiant healing not to mention the ranged balistic attacks we have seen which could very well demolish even shard plate. Shardblades and Shardplate are not power alone they are tools that increase durability and attack effectiveness Just like every metal item in the area is a weapon and armor for a coinshot or lurcher. Certainly don't discount the effectiveness of fire arms in the hands of a sufficiently skilled person Mistborn or not. Skadrial has reached, at this point, a higher level of Tech compared to Roshar and that creates a big advantage for them.

The reason I question being able to form plate is because Adolin was not able to bring his plate and Syl cannot form into a blade. It could be that living plate might be able to form where dead plate is unavailable. If Kaladin had sworn the 4th ideal at the end of OB we would know for sure but I can see it going either way though lean toward not for now.

when you search coppermind for mistborn this is where it takes you https://coppermind.net/wiki/Allomancy A twin born is an allomancer and a feruchemist usually in the form of a misting and fering unlike TLR who was a fullborn. (full allomancer or mistborn and full feruchemist.) discussing misting abilities is definitely not beyond the scope of this topic and in my opinion makes the matchup's even more interesting because of the potential resonances. also when I compare Radiants vs Mistborn I see the contest as resilience and durability vs versatility and creativity and shear power seems just about equal IMHO.

Twinborn is just another type of mistborn from the second age. Wax was a twinborn, and Miles was a compounding twinborn.

and the radiant can be killed in their sleep while the Spren watches. Kaladin did try to form Syl into a shardblade in shadesmar and it didn't work. They did try to take shardplate with them to shadesmar realm and they couldn't. Sure Kaladin walks around with a hoard of flighty air spren in Shademar? If Syl can't be a blade spren can't be armor in Shadesmar.

Again I need to disagree with your interpretation on what aluminum does and I did say my interpretation may be a stretch. "If someone were able to burn the amount of aluminum needed to become an Allomantic savant with the metal, it is possible to cleanse their spirit of unwanted effects of Investiture" Shard blade damage is an effect of unwanted investiture. If the shardblade is in the Aluminum twin it might be neutralize by like metal with the aluminum burning and the spen inside the aluminum twin might have their identity stored into an Aluminum mind, and finally since the shardblade is the heart of the spren at the time its power might be neutralize as a hemalugic affect. Brandon has not come out on what the compounding effect of aluminum is so my interpretation of what might happen is valid until he does.

yeah but they still can't form into armor any more than shardblades can be formed there. Besides how many Spren do you think it takes to form shardplate. Do you really think Kaladin would be traveling with a whole troop of windspren? I am not even sure someone without the travel surge could bring them across at will.

No the Spren might not need to sleep but eventually the human might be worn down enough to be vulnerable. Bronze savants can detect rythms so would likely be able to sense even the Spren aiding them in avoiding them. Make no mistake I don't think a Bronze twin winning is a sure thing just a better than even possibility if they were sufficiently skilled.

I think it was alloy of law and they showed that a steel runner can move fast enough to be barely seen and a steel compounder would have an almost unlimited use of that kind of speed.so it wouldn't be about reaction time but how long the the armor and radiant could withstand the beating before being exhausted. I also don't recall where or even if it says the armor is always on even on a 4th ideal? How is pitting a Steeltwin vs a Windrunner beyond the scope of this topic? A Steel twin could fill their steelmind with speed like Miles could fill his goldmind with health such that there would be almost a limitless supply of speed short of being able to move faster than light. One thing I think everyone has been assuming is that Radiant's would always have access to their shards but that is not so. Shard plate and Shard blades are totally unavailable in Shadesmar and Shardplate may also be unavailable off Roshar since it is made up of the spren of Roshar. Therefore it could be assumed that only on Roshar would a Radiant Knight have their full advantage at least until the advent of faster than light travel on Skadrial since Shardplate can't be transported through Shadesmar. Forgive me if the next match up is a bit of a stretch. An aluminum twin vs say a Dustbringer. No flying but slippersliding available. The Dust bringer because of their greater strength and speed lands a division strike which fails then puts their shard blade right through the Aluminum Twins body. Suddenly the shardblade is neutralized causing a disruption in the bond between Dustbringer and Spren. The shock causes the Dustbringers powers to fail and the Aluminumtwin twin slams their aluminum blade though their heart while they are vulnerable neutralizing their powers permanently and killing them. The Aluminumtwin looks down and says "Ya shudda left yer magic weapons at home ;-)".

I don't think it comes down to the one hit kill for the Mistborn. A skilled steel twin could strike so often and violently that they would more than likely overwhelm the defenses of any order of Radiant Knight even up to 4th Ideal. A bronze twin has the potential to draw out a fight until their opponent is so worn down they eventually become overwhelmed because they have an awareness of where their opponent is and striking when the Radiant's guard is down while hiding and evading in between strikes. The Bronze twin never needs to sleep and the Radiant does so it would be a battle of attrition so long as the Bronze twin can avoid and escape a toe to toe fight. Given a Bronze twin's insane awareness that would be entirely possible.

A bronze twin would have a good chance of beating an individual 4th ideal radiant even though they have no offensive powers to speak of. Because they never need to sleep, and have insane awareness of investiture use if they were highly skilled in stealth, evasion, and martial skills particularly marksmanship if they could draw out the contest they would eventually find the opportunity to strike almost any radiant without stormlight to protect them and until that time they would be taking opportunities to wear down the radiant. The more cover the better their chance to win so long as they can avoid a toe to toe fight.

From there we went to the monastery to have my martial skills tested. Though I could summon shardblades weird things happened to invested objects in my bare hands so instead I used the sai I purchased. As a precaution I also put on a pair of gloves to limit unintentional skin contact. To test my baseline skills I was denied stormlight, though the radiant abilities were still very new to me. Even with our precautions after several minutes with each partner I began to instinctively mirror the monks skills, incorporating their combat styles into my own identity. While we were practicing one of the light weavers arrived and they paired me with him. It became apparent very quickly that he was tapping stormlight for speed, strength and healing. He was also bending the light to confuse his position. I smiled tapping the light that I stored earlier in my metal mind, and some metal reserves for increased abilities. Then I warped the light around us limiting his perceptions of me. Using my new sound and light abilities, I assaulted his equilibrium until he surrendered the match. Then just for fun I mimicked his appearance and mannerisms for a few moments afterward, to confuse and amuse the gathered crowd.

I can grant that the bullet, blade, spike would need to pierce the heart a potentially difficult but not impossible task. I don't think aluminum heals exactly other than to neutralize the damage as if it never existed and in the coppermind it says that negative invested affects may be neutralized by an aluminum savant. The reality is that there are many metals and powers which we have a limited understanding of leaving them open to wide interpretation and aluminum is one of them. We have some of its effects but not how it works. So whose to say. I agree steel twin savant 9 out of 10 times because the windrunner can make a lucky one hit kill potentially before running out of plate and healing.

As I understand it intent matters so if you stab or shoot someone with the intent to neutralize their powers then either acts as a hemalugic spike, but is it the stormlight which is neutralized or does it flat out make them unable to use their abilities period? What is the difference between a spike and a blade? It is my understanding that any alomantically reactive metal can be a spike depending on intent? Look thanks for correcting me on Hemalurgic spikes of Duralimum vs Aluminum. I have been over the coppermind any number of times as I have been challenged by you and others and it seems we have a difference in interpretation about the potential operation of Aluminum. Hemalugically it neutralizes powers so in the case of a radiant whose powers are neutralized by an aluminum hemalugic spike does that mean the stormlight is neutralized or does that mean they can no longer use their surges? I tend to think the stormlight (fuel like the metals) is neutralized not the ability to use the surges. As you also commented an aluminum savant may very well be immune to shardblades since living tissue can't be cut by them and the spirit severing can theoretically be neutralized by an aluminum savant or even someone burning aluminum at the time. That could also mean they are immune to virtually any invested attack like division, soul casting, lashes and so on. Here is another question for you Steel twin vs 4th ideal windrunner? Insane speed, maneuverability and potentially hypersonic metal projectiles vs insane healing, flight, shardplate and possible guided missiles (multiple reverse lash small items at opponent). A steel twin might be able to exponentially accelerate any metal projectile or flight and or add any momentum they have to to the velocity of the projectile. Does the windrunners plate and healing fail due to the barrage of fast strikes and projectiles before they hit the steel twin moving so fast as to be barely visible?

Let me see if I can understand what you are saying. If a person used an aluminum spike with intent they would remove the ability to create gravitic, reverse and cohesive lashes from a windrunner but not nullify the underlying stormlight? In alomantic burning it seems to eliminate/nullify the power source, the metal, not the ability to burn the metal. Are you saying that a aluminum Hemalurgic spike removes the underlying power not their power source? How would that even be possible without spiking both the radiant and the Spren?

I picked a room high up in the tower and settled my very few possessions there then followed the woman to an eating hall. Once we were situated she asked me where I was from. I told her that I was from the roughs, but that it doesn't seem to be on this world. She asked me about my history and I told her how as a child, the son of a bastard feruchemist who didn't seem to have any metalic abilities, I was picked on and bullied. One of my aunts gave me a very valuble aluminum ring when I reached my teens, and I found that I could put my pain, frustration, or anything else that made me feel bad in it. It wasn't until later that I realize that I could also store good things as well. I discovered that I could put things away to deal with at a later time or to use when I needed some extra emotional support. It wasn't until my late teens that I realize my other ability. Someone shot me with an aluminum bullet and I instinctively burned it so it didn't need to be removed. They used aluminum in case I was an undiscovered coin shot or lurcher. For a few minutes everything and everyone I touched gave me a reflection of who they were, and which I could store in my Aluminum ring and then later weave at will into my own identity temporarily. Because I was bullied I worked hard to learn to defend myself from attacks, and because of my social position I ended up engaged in some shady business, which was the reason someone shot me. Aluminum, though most people don't realize it, burns slow, never the less from that point on, and if I could get it even though expensive, I insisted on payment in aluminum. I started almost constantly burning aluminum especially around people whose allamantic or feruchemical abilities I was interested in, but before mirroring them I would obtain a small amount of the metal that they used. The metal never quite worked as well for me as it did for the one I mirrored. I was also able to access the feruchemists metal minds by weaving some of their identity into myself. I quickly found that I needed to keep a firm grip on my own identity, so that I wouldn't get lost in the mirror identities, until I could incorporate parts of those Identities permanently into myself. Over time by weaving mirrored parts of other's Identities I acquired access to most metal arts. It was this mirroring ability that I used to heal Harvest and to initiate a bond with Fractal. So she asked me "you have a bond with two spren?" "In a manor of speaking yes", I told her.

It doesn't mean it wont remove stormlight either. as Kuldak pointed out to me Aluminum removes powers when used hemalugically From what I understand Aluminum is a little understood wildcard metal which appears to level the playing field between normal's and invested individuals. The only real clue we have to go on with how it may work is that it feruchemically stores identity so maybe it stores away the metal identities and once burned the metal identities are burned as well leaving them inert. Perhaps some connection to the persons identity and their powers is what causes hemalurgic spikes to remove powers in some way. The easiest way to nulify a radiant's power would be to nullify their stormlight and perhaps the Radiant loses the identity connecting them to the stormlight. I don't know this could be wild speculation, but it has not yet been explained how aluminum works only what it does. With aluminum what really intrigues me is the possible interaction with of aluminum compounding in an aluminum twin?

Didn't mean to quote myself I meant to edit. Theoretically an aluminum Hemalugic spike might be used to get access to others Invested abilities like allomancy, radiance, or feruchemy. by passing the identity markers inherent in those abilities. It can be used to steal breaths without permission. because it bypasses the identity marker on the breaths before they are given away by the owner.

Stealing identity is the hemalurgic ability of aluminum. In many parts of the cosmere aluminum acts to suppress or interfere with investiture and that includes roshar. Stormlight is an investiture store.

No stormlight wouldn't be stolen the Identity would, and stormlight might be nullified just like metals are. With a missing Identity it might also break their bond to their spren since it seems as if the connection is through the identity.

With Identity I am assuming that is where a persons talents, personality, skills, and abilities that enable connection are stored, and if drained for a time at least they are highly suggestible. Identity also provides the motivating force and once drained may act like a sever brain injury or deep hypnotic state. Loss of Identity has been stated to make a person more susceptible to emotional allomancy. In a way removing Identity removes will but not exactly since another metal does that. I have seen many references to Pewter giving strength and speed to allomancers and a Pewter twin would be impressive, but if you want speed, range, and manuverability what you want is a Steel twin Savant. Steel/Iron allomancy seems to enhance accuracy since intuiting vectors, trajecories, and momentum becomes second nature to skilled coinshots and lurchers. Add to that compounded speed and push of a twin who like Was seems to always be using his allomancy and feruchemy. Since windrunners are the most agile and perhaps best individual fighters so far of the Radiants Kaladin being the pinacle of what we have seen so far. Pitting a Kaladin like windrunner against a Wax skill level Steel compound twin savant would give the windrunner a real run for their money. The windrunner would have personal regeneration and durability on their side so they could take a great deal of damage. Their default weapon is a near instant kill blade but I don't think it would take long for a Kaladin to adapt and use gravity and reverse lashes to create projectiles In the case of reverse lashes guided missiles. The Steel compounding savant twin would have insane speed on their side with the added momentum and angles that would give them. We saw that steel speed in normal circumstances seems to grant movement like the flash making the person near imperceptible and compounding would only enhance that. Also any metal the windrunner had would give them away to the steel twin. Any speed that the steel twin achieves would provide additional momentum to their pushes and the only time they would be slowed is going down since that would be limited by gravity unless they had an anchor above. Not sure how long shardplate and stormlight would last against the constant barrage of ballistic speed strikes the steel twin could deliver. The wind runner might only connect if they got lucky. Any other type of Radiant would have an even worse time. If I understand only a windrunner has the potential for guided projectiles and if those projectiles happen to metal the steel twin could use them as anchors and or deflect them outright. That would be a fight to see though you may never see more than a blur where the steel twin is concerned if that.