Dreamwa1ker

In the thread elsewhere about Kaladin's glowing eyes, I said that I think you could call the Shard combination of Honor and Odium = Vengeance. Right before that scene, Vyre tells the Pursuer not to touch the grieving Kaladin lest he waken him to vengeance and that made me think of it. Hatred (Odium) over a wrong done to you, an oath broken, etc leads to seeking vengeance. Also how people would set up a duel to correct some slight, a way of channeling hate into an orderly format. I do think this still fits with calling it War however, as often wars are started out of these same vengeance motives, and War typically has a rules of engagement and formality and strategy/orderliness that channels the hate/passion as a tool to an end vs chaos/rioting.

I could very much see Kaladin picking up Honor, for some of the same reasons you mentioned. At the least I think that Kaladin is already Honor's avatar: He already has seemed to have command of the winds, even feels wind guiding him even before being Radiant. The spear always felt right in his hand even before he was trained. He talks at various times that he could close his eyes and still dodge/fight just as well. And the Honor is dead but I'll see what I can do also works so well with "“Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men!” I think Syl was tasked with finding an avatar or next Vessel for Honor and she picked Kaladin. So I agree he might ascend - I don't agree with the rest of the theory you put forth however because it is too similar to Mistborn. I don't know what would happen next.

100% how I envision him too. No wonder Ash had a thing for him

If it refers to Ishar, and if Ishar was involved in the catastrophe on Ashyn, I like "Killer of Worlds". It could be his writing on what happened there. Could have a double meaning too if Dalinar loses and becomes a Fused!

Yeah I like pestilence as well, I was going for a cancer/festering vibe. And with Pestilence for that and with Odium + Honor being War, we would have half of The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse!!

I like to think if the shards of Odium + Cultivation combined it would be called Malignance. Which sounds badass but storming terrifying.

I like it. Actual footage of Navani and Raboniel creating Warlight

The "Bruh" slayed me and took me straight to Among Us. TaravOdium was the imposter.

Omg that is one of my favorite pieces too! Love this idea, especially that part of the song. If we're thinking Holst's The Planets (because Mars is also a great answer!) I could totally see Honor's rhythm being like the middle section of Jupiter that is often used as a hymn: At 2:54. Definition of stately.

Music tones and rhythms are so important in RoW. I wanted to make a space to share people's own ideas of songs or music that represent what Rhythm of War or The Song of Science could sound like. I hope you share some examples of what you think! My picks: My brain went to a couple songs from The Last of the Mohicans film score. It has a beautiful soundtrack and makes heavy use of leitmotifs for the different characters and themes, which can then fit well for being the different rhythms/tones of the Shards. This one I think of the track Promontory from Last of the Mohicans: There is a steady solid beat on the drums with a slow melody that grows and falls steadily over the top (I think of this as "Honor's stately rhythm") with a constantly moving and changing line on the strings within it (Cultivation). You can really hear the two overlaid at about 2:28 at the link above. For the Rhythm of War, there is another track from the same film called Fort Battle, that has some of the same elements (Honor melody) from the other song but mixed with more martial drums and more clashing. I see this as Honor's melody with Odium's frenzy, almost dissonant: Listen particularly at 2:22. What songs do you think of when you read these passages? I would love to hear other examples!

If Dalinar loses at the beginning of the book and becomes a Fused (or if it's referencing Ishar with Ashyn tragedy) Killer of Worlds Other options: Kindness of Wounds Key of Worlds Knife of Wisdom Keeper of Woe Cremposting: Kite of Whimsy (kite magic!) Kaladin or Wit (Jasnah shipping wars) Kalak Off-World Khriss: On Worldhopping

The Sibling be like:

Ishar, probably:

Love this! Whimsy shard in general does make me think of Q so I like the premise. Hoid as Guinan is perfect. Picard - Jasnah fits in a lot of ways (Renaissance man/woman, rational, enlightened leader, high ideals of equality) but Jasnah seems a tad ruthless compared to tv Picard. Maybe she's First Contact movie Picard Also I submit: Raboniel - that scientist that kills the Crystalline Entity, using a resonance/tone no less

In fact Lift had to KEEP waking him back up a couple times a day or he would slip away again.

Crack theory: hemalurgy. The Heralds madness seems to be opposite of what they originally stood for, e.g. Ash destroying artwork. For Ishar, he seems to have been the one that instituted the concept of Radiant bonds requiring oaths to bind the Surgebinders to having restrictions or needing to follow certain ideals. Could he therefore now be going after transferring powers to people without oaths through hemalurgy? They have notes on how long the spren lived, and I believe one of the challenges with hemalurgy is keeping the victim alive long enough to complete the process. Ishar also seems to have been quite Cosmere-aware even compared to the other Heralds based on Ash and others comments, so he may have been aware of hemalurgy and Scadrial.

Not sure how to best cross-link posts on here, but my theory is that Kaladin is Honor's avatar, perhaps Syl chose him as a task she was given by Honor before he splintered (though she might not really remember that, like other parts of her past) - see here: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/93917-why-kaladin-was-awake/?do=findComment&comment=1142980

Love this discussion. Speaking of the whole Son of Tanavast thing and the winds responding to him etc, I had a thought. There was a conversation between Moash and Odium in RoW where Moash drops the term avatar: RoW I-4 Then it comes up again in reference to Thaidakar: RoW 115 I think there is a reason the concept of an avatar is being introduced at this point in Stormlight. I think Kaladin could somehow be Honor's avatar. This would be why he can command the winds, is hard to kill, why even when he first holds a spear it feels right and he is preternaturally gifted with it, and the winds have been guiding him as he fights even in flashbacks. Now how this could happen as Honor has been shattered for quite a while before Kaladin is born - not sure. Maybe Honor gave this task to Syl the favored daughter before he was shattered, to find the right person. But this is my current theory for what's going on with Kaladin.

It's a little unclear- he is an unchained/unbonded Bondsmith. No oaths, no spren - his only oath was the Oathpact which he abandoned. The only Herald who also joined their Radiant order was Nale, and he has two blades - an Honorblade and Shardblade. Even though Nale has seriously twisted his oaths around, he still has to operate within them - therefore I find Ishar much scarier (he also seems more Cosmere-aware and expert on Realmatics - double scary)

Apologies if this was already discussed, but I was re-reading the section where Kaladin saves Lirin and a detail popped out that I rather rushed past in my excitement on first read: So cool, I pretty much just went squee the first time because that is just perfect for Kaladin. We have seen glyphs on Radiant armor before, but I hadn't assumed it would be so personalized: WoK chapter 19 WoR chapter 4 But it never tells you what the glyphs are. I always assumed they were the glyphs for the Order, or oaths or something. But now that we see Kaladin's maybe the glyphs have to do with your own personal affiliations, mottos, or maybe what you call your group of yourself and your squires. Will Shallan's plate be a glyph for the Unseen Court? Would Dalinar's have the Kholin glyphs, or the Knights Radiant glyph? What I really want to know is what Jasnah's would be, maybe just covered in an essay in women's script. Fun to speculate.

Out there one: Mr T already has relied on Nightblood before, what if he chose Nightblood itself as a champion? It seems to be sapient enough to accept and he could tell it that it well get to destroy evil. And I'm not really sure how Nightblood could be killed/destroyed. It also could fit in that Rayse didn't seem to fully grasp or be very aware of the potential of Nightblood in the way Taravangian was, hence how he was caught off-guard by it. But Taravangian clearly knows more.

My brain went to Thude now that we see he has somehow tamed the chasmfiends. Probably not enough evidence yet though.

Oh also parent-child relationships, especially father-son expectations on both Kaladin and Adolin storylines.

The scene in the basement with Moash and Kaladin, I was a wreck. When "Formless" took over I was terrified Shallan was going to destroy all the good things in her life and take a dark path. At the end with Tien, I wept. The final scene with Eshonai riding the storm was so beautiful, bittersweet tears there too.

Agreed that would be best approach. I also see a theme in there of technological advances having ethical or moral implications, can be used for both good and ill. (Navani/Raboniel/Sibling plot) From Kaladin and other storylines, I also saw a strong theme of listening to and seeing value in the marginalized or those who don't normally have a voice. See Rlain, Dabbid, Maya, the people in care of the Devotary of Mercy.