Trutharchivist

I feel like I'm playing Navani here: not a real scholar, just a patron (I mean, thread creator) that nudges the real scholars to the right direction. I actually wrote at length my personal opinion about the things on the table, but it somehow got erased, and I don't want ot write it all over. in short, what I wrote was: a. I believe that there is a natural way of bonding spren on Roshar, which has something to do with gemhearts, and I don't believe it's like a Nahel bond, nor am I sure it's like fabrials. b. Allomancy works in a system of keyhole - allomancer's spiritweb - and key - the metal. Fabrials work a little differently, but I still need to give more thought as to how exactly. Anyway, returning to nudging! (If you think I have no right to try and pull the discussion to the way I want it to go feel free to say it, and then ignore what I said down here.) Based on this, I thought of trying to figure out the workings of hemalurgy - which looks at first sight to be very orderly. First of, I believe it is logical to assume that allomancy could be called external, since the source of it's investiture are external to the allomancer. Likewise, I believe it will be only logical to say feruchemy is internal, since it's source of investiture is the feruchemist himself. This classification works perfectly... in the physical quadrant, ignoring the fact physical strength is external, by this definition, and avoiding having to deal with the pushing/pulling division. The cognitive quadrant destroys it all by working exactly opposite to what I just stated. Maybe I should have started by explaining the pushing/pulling division, but then the higher metals would've destroyed it all. Anyone has better ideas?

Umm... it's Urithiru. I read it "oo-ri-thi-roo". I mean, Urithuru isn't symmetric.

Can you give an example?

I believe I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't seem to me like it works. In feruchemy, for example, the external cognitive metals - which I'd agree isn't different from allomantic mental - are storing things I don't believe could be counted as external. Zinc, for example, stores mental speed, which I can't see as anything external to the feruchemist. By the way, I think it's better to refer the quadrants in their feruchemical names, since it corresponds with the realmatic theory.

Wrote this hours ago, sorry. Seems like spaidapig's explanation works, though I'm not that much sure about it. Anyway, as I wrote above, I don't want this thread to become another thread discussing only fabrial-to-allomancy relations. Should I just start a new thread in the Mistborn portion of the forum and leave this one to only discussing how fabrials get into it all?

Actually I think it's pulling because it pulls impressions from the world to the allomancer. Still, I can see what you mean. Maybe I should explain in more details why I created this thread. In all the other threads, everybody thinks only to see if fabrial metals act like allomantic metals - which they seem to do. Thing is, there are three other metalic arts, and the fact that they have almost no resemblance to each other for some unapparent reason doesn't seem weird to anyone. The question is not only on fabrials, but on every magic system that uses allomantic metals. Maybe I should try starting a similar thread on the Mistborn sub-forum. Zinc and brass affect the spren, not the fabrial as a whole. you can't use more material - this is how you use more of the spren, I think. It's sometimes hard for me to grasp the difference between pewter and zinc in fabrials, I think zinc changes the power of the fabrial and pewter makes the spren express it's attribute. For example, heatrials would have zinc to produce more heat, and pewter to start producing heat on the first place, which would make pewter and tin binary. Maybe we justt think in opposite directions.

Yes, technically there are already two other threads about this. I still started this one, since it's a little different topic: instead of speaking mainly about fabrials, here I wish to discuss the connection between every application of any metal in the four magic systems: allomancy, feruchemy, hemalurgy and fabrials. I might've lost myself in the middle of that sentence, I hope you understood me. anyway, what we've seen so far: Iron - A: pulls on metals. Fe: stores weight. H: steals strength. Fa: changes polarity (whatever that means)/attracts attribute. Steel - A: pushes on metals. Fe: stores physical speed. H: steals physical allomantic powers. Fa: same as Iron. Tin - A: enhances senses. Fe: stores senses. H: steals senses. Fa: diminishes attribute. Pewter - A: enhances strength and balance. Fe: storing physical strength. H: steals physical feruchemical powers. Fa: expresses attribute. Zinc - A: riots emotions. Fe: stores mental speed. H: steals emotional fortitude. Fa: manifests the spren more strongly. Brass - A: soothes emotions. Fe: stores warmth. H: steals cognitive feruchemy. Fa: makes the spren withdraw. Copper - A: hides allomantic pulses. Fe: stores memory. H: steals mental fortitude, memory, and intelligence. Fa: unknown. Bronze - A: allows to hear allomantic pulses. Fe: stores wakefulness. H: steals mental allomancy. Fa: warns of things getting close. Aluminum - A: wipes internal allomantic reserves. Fe: stores Identity. H: removes all powers. Fa: cuts connection, no other known function. Duralumin - A: quickly burns any burning metals in powerful burst. Fe: stores connection. H: steals connection and identity. Fa: unknown. Chromium - A: wipes out target's allomantic reserves. Fe: stores furtune. H: might steal destiny? Fa: unknown. Nicrosil - A: enhances allomantic burn of target. Fe: stores investiture. H: steals investiture. Fa: unknown. Gold - A: shows past self (or alternative present self). Fe: stores health. H: steals hybrid feruchemy. Fa: unknown, probably known in-world. Electrum - A: shows possible future of the burner. Fe: stores determination. H: steals enhancement allomancy. Fa: unknown. Cadmium - A: slows down time. Fe: stores breath. H: steals temporal allomancy. Fa: unknown. Bendalloy - A: speeds up time. Fe: stores energy. H: steals spiritual feruchemy. Fa: unknown. Now, there are patterns inside each magic system, if you look for it, though so far only allomancy and hemalurgy have sensible division for each metal. For now, it might be better to stick to discussing only the lower metals - the first eight, since we understand those the most, and know mostly all of their applications in the magic systems (lets use the acronym MS for that) in discussion. Tin is irregular because it's the only one that does exactly the same in the first three MSs. I can't actually see any thorough connection between one metal's applications in all the MSs, and it's a little late at night in my country, and since I'm also lazy I'll leave you to think over it.

So Luke is also a radiant now, not only a Jedi? Well, I guess this to resemble each other anyway. Lightsabers and shardblades act similarly - except for the fact ligghtsabers cut your body, not your soul.

I was just about to say something similar to what Govir said... but never mind that. I just wanted to say that fabrials resemble allomancy more than feruchemy and hemalurgy resemble it. This actually seems a little weird to me.

I didn't quite understand the thing about steel and iron, and I think it's important. what does "the fabrial's polarity" means?

If I already started a thread, is it fine with you that I'll post it here? It would be better arranged if I will. @Danex, your ideas sound interesting, though for some reason I can't see where the second one could lead - I'd hazard a guess that this is the reason you didn't keep writing it, but I may well be wrong. My ideas that weren't posted around here: The idea was of taking a character - preferably of the type that's usually the mentor in stories - and write a series of short stories about him, which were told at his funeral. here's the one I wrote - not the best, but it's a beggining. The first word of each paragraph refused to be unbolded for some reason. It's not my best story, but not my worst either. wrote it for a work at school in my 11th grade, actually.

It might not be the place for that, but since it surfaced... I liked Shallan and Kaladin in the chasms part, and their relationship is interesting even without being a romantic one. I think I prefer Shadolin.

Interesting idea. I think it's allomantic pewter - he could burn unconsciously bits that entered his body similar to how Vin got to use her allomancy at first. You have good arguments, though. Technically, we did see a shard granting allomancy - Spook becoming a mistborn. I guess you meant a scadrians shard could not grant abilities like that temporally only to fuel them for the moment, and we know wax didn't gain gold feruchemy afterwards.

I believe the difference between copper and other metals is that other metals store attributes with two dimensions, so to speak: amount and time. you can use bigger amount than the amount/time you stored by lessening the time, which means in an equation you'd probably write it as: amount*time=stored attribute, though for some reason, pressing it takes a little more of the time than it should. Copper, contrary to that, seems like it doesn't have the time part, or that it's time is set as 1, or something like that. Not sure if that's connected, just thought of it. Sorry if I used the wrong words - English isn't my native language.

I've read and liked some of her books - not sure I can call myself a fan, though. I haven't found yet an opportunity to read most of her books. Of the ones I read, though, I probably liked the Homeward Bounders and Archer's goon the most. Haven't read Dark Lord of Derkholm, Deep Secret or Dogsboy, though.

... Which is a very big assumption. How would they know of the mere existence of those metals? I think aluminum is different because ancient scadrians (which is to say Era 1 scadrians) knew about it, so I assume rosharans could know of it as well. They could know of it from their ancestors from ashyn, though - assuming the people of ashyn knew about those metals.

I thought that maybe the classification of the allomantic metals as in external/internal would be relevant, but if anything, brass' & zinc's confirmed fabrial effect vs. bronze's (& copper's) makes it look like it's the other way around. Brandon said, I believe, that this classification is merely scadrians trying to make sense of allomancy, so it shouldn't be a logical problem. I'd say that pushing/pulling does works, but it's debatable. It seems that there is a difference between expressing the spren's attribute and manifesting the spren, and that's the difference between physical and mental metals. BTW, I don't understand much in metals but I recall reading that chromium and cadmium are hard to obtain without modern technology metals, so rosharans shouldn't know about them. Maybe they don't consider gold a fabrial-relevant metal either (after all, it's not such a useful metal in allomancy, and electrum is connected to seeing the future, which is of the voidbringers), and so they'll have ten metals. Just an idea.

I don't know if it's needed, but BoM spoilers ahead. First, I believe it's impossible to store kinetic investiture - which is to say, the equivalent of actively burning metals. You can see it in BoM - the bands should give you any allomantic ability, but Marasi needs to drink one of the guards' metal vial (if I remember correctly) to use those abilities. Second, I believe it was stated in a WoB that you can't convert investiture from one non-nicrosil metalmind to a nicrosilmind investiture, but I'm to lazy to check it. Anyway, if I'm right about storing kinetic investiture, I think it's practically the same. Third, it sounds to me that you'd need blank investiture to pass it from the nicrosilmind to any othe metalmind, and it might be possible to store, but not any investiture you store will do that. The idea of storing blank investiture seems to have a lot of potential, if it's possible. And I might be wrong about converting investiture.

Thanks for the clarification, at least I used the right word. The main idea was what those animals represent for humans. It's close to the idea of human stereotypes for animals, but it's not quite that. A better example than what I've wrote above is foxes and cunnings as their Center, though I prefer change and I think it can work. That's why it's more logical to pull royalty/regalty?/pride for lions, since that what they usually represent in culture. Your idea about scavengers is interesting, though, and might work. thank you! There are two differences I see: first, they don't bond humans, they do it with multiple humans through their lives. The connection is temporal and is mostly parasitic - it could be like if spren would get sapience once they got the feeling associated with them, for example Cryptics gain sapience whenever they are hearing people lie. Second, the ones who gain magic in the process are the animals. that's makes it way harder to think of them as living in symbiosis with sapient creatures, and that's why even their supporters only say it's possible, not that it is like that right now. Maybe I should change it, because I'm actually more on their side. I didn't plan an actual story yet, I'm trying to just worldbuild right now, which might be stupid. I'll have to think about it. Part of the idea is that the Biopsyche help people in developing personality by taking parts of their minds - it does sounds a little creepy. maybe I should make it that only children and uncertain minds can give the Biopsyche what they need. Maybe I should also say that the Ironrod and the Biopsyche's supporters on the sapient creatures side are two extreme sides of it. Most of the people that know about the existence of the Biopsyche are mainly afraid of them, and don't know all that much about what's going on. They don't like the Ironrod much, but suffer them because they are their best protection against the Biopsyche. I might sort of turn back from the not bonding part, actually. If I will, it might end up awfully similar to the Knights Radiant, though the Centers shouldn't follow the radiant spren exactly, the magic would work differently and will come with a personal cost - parts of your mind, though it would grow back afterwards, it won't be the same. Coming to think of it, maybe it's still to much alike to surgebinding, so I might give up on bonding for the sake of theoretical originality. Sorry for changing my mind multiple times here - I'm just thinking while writing here, and too lazy to rewrite it. Edit starts here: since writing this, I evolved the idea a bit. First, it's important to understand that the relationship between the Biopsyche and the sapient creatures is very far from bonding. If the story will be about war, it would be between those sides, not the pro-Biopsyche and the Ironrod sapient creatures. Except from that, I thought of another member in the Biopsyche and his Center, if it interests someone - wolves and Lonings. If you disagree or have more ideas, I'll be happy to hear you. End of Edit. I'm sorry for all the mess here - as I already wrote, I'm thinking on the page here. Thanks again for your help!

As far as I understand, you're talking about storing kinetic investiture, which I'm not sure that could work even on nicrosilminds, because they store potential investiture - the ability to burn metals. I disagree with you about this, I don't think a compouder should be able to store KI in the fitting metalmind, but I have no valid point. it just doesn't sound right to me.

Hello! I'm relatively new to the forum, so please let me know if I somehow misunderstood and this isn't the right place for that. Anyway, I had an idea for a story, only I got a little stuck at some part in the worldbuilding - I'll outline what I already have here. Any help with it will be gladly accepted, but not necessarily applied, of course. BTW, I believe the magic system I thought of could get smoothly with the realmatic theory, but judge for yourself. The idea is basically about a group of animals of many species that are acting as sort of parasites to the minds of sapient creatures (actually, I also don't know the difference between sapient and sentient, I would like if someone could explain it). those animals - supposed to be creatures like foxes, wolves, bears and such (non mammals are possible) - are taking parts of the human mind to have semi-sapience, specific parts for each animal. The idea is that each species is centered around some idea it represents - so far I thought of Wisdom for owls, Change for foxes (that one's actually is a little weird, I admit), and I guess I can go with royalty or whatever for lions - maybe pride? but I don't really like this idea (and that's why they don't get to be capitalized). They could also do magic related to their Center - like foxes shapeshifting. I actually haven't build it all that much. In the world where those animals live - they're called there "the Biopsyche" (I have a little nicer name for them in my native language, Hebrew, but that's a fine enough translation, I think) by the way - there are groups who hunt them down, mainly a group named Ironrod, after their weapons, that work surprisingly well on Biopsyches. part of the idea is that the Biopsyche as a whole represents representation, and the Ironrod is the lack of thereof. There are also people who believe the Biopsyche aren't truly parasites, and that sapient species can live beside them in symbiosis. all of that is in a universe parallel to ours, and only the Biopsyche can create a portal between universes, though they leave some open. I'd like to know what you think of this, and which animals you think should be added to the Biopsyche, with which Center and magical abilities. You can also offer alternative ideas to those I've wrote here, and offer a better name to the Biopsyche. Do remember the nature of them when you offer. Biopsyche members have to be: a. a normally not sapient animal, that's b. represents an idea in our world, which would be it's Center and the source of it's magical power. Thanks for your help and your time. If it's too long for you and for some reason you expected to see here a tl;dr shortage, I'm sorry, but you won't have any. leave this thread at once, or read this from the beginning to the end even though it's long. thanks again for your time!

Actually, I think there's a WoB about it, to lazy to search for it. Thing is, originally Brandon thought of getting Alcatraz to be part of the Cosmere, but afterwards he decided against it, not wanting to have earth in the Cosmere. Anyway, he decided to leave a reference. I might be wrong.

Actually, I believe one of the fused said something along the lines of "we killed their god" (in one Interlude of Venli in OB, specifically I-7: Envoy, the fused Rine while he speaks to Venli). I thought maybe the fused somehow helped shattering Honor, and the breaking of the oathpact maybe helped them with that. I don't like the theory that Cultivation helped shatter Honor, but like what was stated above: Still, I prefer my idea. I am aware, though, that having mere cognitive shadows helping shatter a shard is a bit far fetched, especially since almost all of their investiture comes from Odium, but it seems to me that from some unknown reason, when a shard attacks another, he has to attack his people too (examples: Odium fighting humans on Roshar, Trell using the Set while fighting harmony), and so it might not be so weird that they have some effect.

Interesting idea. this could also be a comfortable way to make autobiography. As an obsessive book reader, like mostly everyone in this forum, that's one of the first things I'd think of. And that's actually gives me an idea. Sazed stated that memories worded are kept best in metalmind, but in BoM we've seen a very vivid memory of scenes. How vivid would you think a memory of imagined scenes could be? And the mere idea o sharing memories, btw, gives you insight to other people's mind. If people would make the aforementioned autobiographys, it would give soothers & rioters a much needed knowedge on people, maybe even better than psychological profile. Just writing random thoughts.

I think it should be mentioned, if I remember correctly when terrismen have children with allomancers/people with potential allomantic power the powers interfere with each other and their descendants will have only one feruchemical power if at all.