KandraAllomancer

Nothing is limited, no need to worry. Here's the link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dragonsteel/surprise-four-secret-novels-by-brandon-sanderson/description

Except (and yeah, my whole theory kind of depends on that), I haven't seen any convincing (at least for me) theory predicting why there are two H+C magic systems and how Khriss knows that there is one and only one additional set of esoteric powers. Three hybrid magic systems would require the third magic (fabrials) to be C+O, which contradicts Brandon's words that Odium's influence on Roshar in mostly Voidbinding: My arguments would be: A. Cultivation's pure Tone heard by Venli B. Stone is somehow special on Roshar: it has memory, it's sacred in Shin tradition, the Eila Stele considers it a Singer god. This might point to it being Invested, and Storms are already Invested by Honor, which leaves Cultivation as the most likely candidate C. Thunderclasts are clearly separate from the Fused, despite both being corrupted Singers. The latter use powers more associated with Honor, so again - Cultivation seems like a good candidate for the former

Good to know, I didn't remember that

As I've said in the initial post, I think that for some reason full magic systems are only possible with Honor's involvement. That's why we only get Old Magic and Stoneshaping for Lifelight. I don't know why that is the case, my approach was kind of inspired by how particle physics discoveries have been historically made: you list all the elements (in this case powers) and search for the simplest set of rules to explain their behavior. That makes it biased towards excluding new, unseen powers, obviously According to this Coppermind article (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Suppression_fabrial) they are resistant, but I would have to check in the book I pretty much agree, but I wonder about the implications for Voidbinding. Would the NW get other powers from the Sibling? Probably yes. If that is the case, which powers, if any, are Voidbindings? These issues are part of the reasons why I would consider separating Unamde powers, even futuresight, from ten Voidbindings an elegant solution Possibly, but I still like my analogy to Allomacy and atium better I would go with more general, Spiritual effects, but I mostly agree

Thanks for the info, that's good to hear My thoughts exactly

@Frustration and @mathiau: the discussion has gotten to the point where I don't have time to answer all your points (at least no on a weekday), so let me at least provide some clarification on what I meant: I think that the existence of a Light gives Shards and/or spren the ability to make some magic system or powers out of it. For example, both KR and fabrial spren are H+C but A. Modern, KR Surgebinding has started with the Honorblades and is powered by Stormlight - it has grown from Honor's pure Investiture, so to speak B. Oathgate spren were somehow created/altered by the Sibling (they call them parent), a process most likely powered by Towerlight. Probably as a result, they are resistant to Stormlight suppression - Oathgates were the only fabrials still functioning during Urithiru's occupation, despite being usually powered by Stormlight As for the Fused, after re-thinking this I need to admit that their Surges are likely the corruption of Honor's powers. I still believe, however, that they might have been corrupted before they got them. Singers have some inherent magical skills - Stoneshaping (tied to Cultivation's tone) and changing forms (tied to Honor's tone, which Eshonai hears when she adopts warform for the first time). I think that the thunderclasts' ability to inhabit stone and the Fused ability to inhabit Singer bodies are corruptions of these respective skills. When it comes to the Unmade and Voidbinding, I wonder about the questions we could ask Brandon during the next spoiler stream to clarify the issue. For now I have come up with these: If Raboniel successfully corrupted the Sibling, could Odium theoretically create an eleventh Unmade, for example out of the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, or Cusicesh? The Voidbinding chart is very similar to the Surgebinding chart in its structure. Are all the powers shown on it purely from Odium? Seeing the future seems to have a very special place amongst Odium's magic - all the Unmade have some capacity for it, it's described as the heart of Voidbinding etc. Is it one of the ten abilities with Surge-like glyphs shown on the Voidbinding chart, or something more fundamental?

Brandon has clearly stated that fabrials are a part of the third system. Don't get me wrong, I would love Cultivation to have full 10 powers, but as far as I cane tell from current evidence, these esoteric abilities will be fabrial related somehow. We've already seen a suppression fabrial related to some unknown sapient spren, for example Khriss is taking about Radiant Surges in Ars Arcanum, while the Urithiru Stone shows Venli something far earlier. It doesn't need to be Surgebinding, as it seems to be based on Rhythms rather than spren Possibly, yes. But we still haven't seen any example, historical or modern, of an Unmade granting (in whatever way) any powers whose structure is similar to KR Surgebinding, save for Sja-anat which creates H+O spren Infusion with Voidlight and using Transformation is how corruption can take place, as shown by Raboniel with the Sibling. Normal CS can't just take over bodies, you need some additional powers like (Cosmere spoilers): It seems possible that something was added to the Fused's souls in the process, making it a corruption in my opinion. Possessing a body with its own spiritweb, Cognitive aspects etc. can potentially be a corruption as well, who knows. If Honor's magic was corrupted, what was corrupted exactly?

Not a progress bar enhancement per se, but there's apparently some big news about Brandon's future plans coming tomorrow on his YouTube channel

I absolutely agree, but I don't see it as a problem. As you've pointed out, metals already work like that. Also, I assume that each Light would add just one or a few powers, and only create 10 power magic systems when combined with Honor.

Once again, semantics. We have 3 major systems (Surgebinding, Voidbinding and fabrials) and then some more minor magic from Cultivation Two WoBs from my previous post literally say that the third set of 10 powers is fabrials. All evidence we have (Rosharan spren generally being H+C, Navani's description of the H+C Rhythm, the Sibling's involvement in fabrial creation) points to it being of Honor and Cultivation, not just Cultivation Dawnsinger Stoneshaping is compared to a Surge, but as far as I remember never called Surgebinding. Ashyn's magic wasn't about the diseases before the cataclysm: They had some form of Surgebinding: We know from Syl's interlude that Surges were bound by Bondsmiths somehow then. Some kind of binding definitely took place. Also, even disease magic uses some kind of spren bond, although indirectly: We still don't have any explanation about why would people create a chart (an in-world document) showing ten powers / "Orders" for nine Unmade. And none of the Unmade seems to exhibit two powers, and none powers seem to be shared amongst two Unmade Red eyes only imply corrupted Investiture, which could be the effect of how the Fused were turned into CSs, how they possess Singers etc. Nine brands and effects different from KR Surgebinding seem to indicate that this is a magic from Braize, which hasn't been Invested by Honor

I didn't say that, technically - only that (for reasons I don't claim to understand) magic systems seem to correspond to Lights, and that their classification can be based on that I don't think we have any evidence of that. We know that the Fused didn't have Surges from the start, but learnt them somehow. Could that have included Honor or some H+C spren? I have no idea. Some powers, especially Transportation and Progression, seem very different from KR Surgebinding We don't really know what the used to be, and if they all were on the same level of power before. BAM, for example, seems way more fundamental for Roshar than Nergaoul. We also have no idea if there weren't more spren like that - some huge spren might've supported Aimia's massive fabrial infrastructure, for example. How is that an extraordinary claim? We know from WoBs and Ars Arcanum that they will be 3/30 magic systems (3 sets of 10 powers): We know that these would be Surgebinding (originally H+C), fabrials (also H+C as far as I can tell), and Voidbinding: There's no place for 10 powers purely from Cultivation

Whether we cal it one or ten magic systems is just semantics, so I don't see how it affect anything Of three magic systems on Roshar that don't involve Odium (Surgebinding, fabrials and Old Magic), only the ones including Honor have ten powers though It literally has "binding" in its name, so some kind of bond seems very likely. Also, we see ten "Orders" for only nine Unmade, so some other Voidspren seem like a rational explanation We still have only nine Unmade. The tenth Unmade is theoretically possible, but I also don't see anything prohibiting Odium from creating even more e.g. eleventh Unmade created from Cusicesh Cultivation won't have ten powers, as far as I can reasonably tell. Futuresight seems to more than just one of the abilities, as all of the Unmade are theoretically capable of it. So we have nine Unmade, each with futuresight and one other power - I don't see how people could create a Voidbinding chart out of that

Brandon has made it clear that he sometimes considers individual KR orders separate magic systems: Well, part of Voidbinding, really. I see two reasons: A. Stormlight Ars Arcanum has clearly been written soon after Arc 1 (it mentions anti-Investiture as a recent development) and Khriss seems to be convinced that they are three and only three sets of 10 abilities. Given that 10 is a number associated with Honor, the only explanation I can see is that there's one magic system per Honor's Light, making Voidbinding associated with Warlight to at least some extent B. Structure of Vodibinding chart doesn't make sense. Why would Odium's magic be 10-centric? Why would it follow the structure of KR Orders if Surgebinding of the Fused doesn't? Also, if Voidbinding is entirely of Odium only, there should be 10 kinds of Voidspren that people could bond. Where are they? The Heralds warned people of the dangers of Voidbinding, but they mentioned futuresight only, entirely explained by the influence of the Unmade. In Oathbringer, Turash is surprised that humans can even bond Voidspren - something apparently never witnessed by a Fused before

I’ve been thinking about the classification of Rosharan magic and its weirdness for quite some time and I believe I’ve finally come up with something useful. I think that all magic systems on Roshar could be understood using three simple rules: 1.We have a magic system (or at least a set of abilities) for each Light, which is typically used as the primary source of power for the magic 2. Full magic systems (i.e. having 10 powers) are only possible for Lights including Honor's Investiture 3. The classification is murky because of several reasons: the Light doesn’t need to match the magic’s Shards fully (e.g. original Surgebinding is of H+C, despite using primarily Stormlight) Shards and spren can copy the abilities of other magic systems (e.g. the Fused or Yelig-nar and Surgebinding) in certain situations the powers of one magic system can be fueled using different Lights (e.g. Venli using Voidlight to Surgebind) Surgebinding - Stormlight Not much to add here, Surgebinding (at least the original one) uses Stormlight primarily. The abilities of the Fused mimic it using Odium’s power. Old Magic and ancient Stoneshaping - Lifelight The Old Magic is of Cultivation, but there’s more to her magic and Lift’s abilities are apparently a hint: We also know from Venli’s chapters in RoW that the Dawnsingers used to have Stoneshaping abilities that didn’t require Nahel bond and were related to Cultivation’s pure Tone and certain Rhythm or Rhythms. Dawncities, cymatic patterns and maybe even what happened to the Shattered Plains are possibly related to this. Thunderclasts seem to be Odium’s corruption of these powers. Voidbinding – Voidlight (futuresight) and Warlight (ten Voidbindings) Voidbinding is extremely mysterious, but I think it could be understood by assuming that it is actually two magic systems: one purely of Odium (core, proper Voidbinding a.k.a. futuresight), the other of both Odium and Honor (ten Surge-like Voidbindings). Voidbinding is described a cousin of Old Magic and apparently its heart is trying to predict the future. Also, per Taravangian’s word, we know that all of the Unmade (primary source of Voidbinding) have futuresight abilities to some extent. This seems to indicate that seeing the future is not just one of the powers, but the core of the magic itself. The Voidbinding chart possibly hints at that by showing the center two “Orders” not connected to any powers. On the other hand, the Voidbinding chart also shows ten Surge-like abilities, organized just like in KR Surgebinding, which looks to me like a strong signal that Honor might be involved as well. Additionally, we know from RoW that corrupted Mistspren are of both Honor and Odium. I believe that Renarin’s Progression and Illumination abilities might actually be Voidbindings, different from baseline Surges by providing an access to the Spiritual Realm. The whole situation actually has a very nice parallel with the state of Allomancy after the recent atium retcon (Mistborn spoilers): One obvious problem is that Renarin is the first person bonded to a corrupted Mistspren: If that is the case, how is it possible that Voidbinding has been studied in the past enough to create the chart with ten abilities? I can see three possibilities: A. The chart has been predicted using futuresight B. Sja-anat has corrupted spren of other Orders before C. Voidbindigs have been observed before without any influence from Sja-anat, for example in Knights Radiant affected by some other Unmade Fabrials – Towerlight Navani describes the combined Rhythm of Honor and Cultivation as the Rhythm of science itself, so it makes sense that fabrials would be the magic associated with Towerlight. A recent WoB sheds some light on the history of Surge fabrial development: It seems that portable Surge fabrials (at the very least Progression fabrial from Dalinar’s vision and “universal” Soulcasters capable of any transformation) are a relatively late addition, essentially the KR co-opting fabrials to replicate their own powers. That gives us a lot of space to search for the esoteric abilities that Khriss mentions in Ars Arcanum. What could they be? I can see three interesting clues: Oathgates: they apparently predate other Surge fabrials and have been the inspiration for them. They have two spren and two powers: transporting to Shadesmar and to other Oathgates. The former is clearly a Surge, but could the latter be a separate power, possibly (Aether of Night spoilers) Aimia: Aimia used to have some impressive fabrial infrastructure and has been long associated with Soulcasters. Could these be Soulcasters capable of only one transformation? Do they have some additional secrets? I wonder what would happened if such Soulcaster was used with Towerlight – I hope Navani does such experiment in the next book Suppression fabrials: the corrupted suppression fabrial Lezian uses must have been an H+C spren once, right? It seems to indicate that the Sibling’s power protecting Urithiru can be replicated and given to people

Yeah, you can vote for Mistborn Era 1 in the poll on their website and submit suggestions about other Cosmere books

I've just learnt from Elliot Brooks' Youtube channel about this new set of SA dust jackets created by Kraken Book: https://krakenbook.com/ They apparently have the official blessing from Dragonsteel team, but, weirdly, the project doesn't seem to be advertised in any way. The dust jackets are compatible with Tor hardcovers, you can also get matching bookmarks and vote for their next project - Mistoborn Era 1 is on the list

I've just re-read the relevant chapter (HoA 81) and the situation looks like this: A. Elend has wrongly assumed that the Mistafallen were a mix of different Mistings, so he didn't test them - just sent them away B. Demoux could only get a small selection of metals after leaving Luthadel, so he couldn't test the Misfallen for all potential Mistings

Here is my proposition: Change: change, grow, adapt etc. Cultivation, Ruin, Invention, Whimsy Bind: everything should be bound by rules / obligations. The Dawnshard mentioned in the Poem of Ista, obviously Honor, Dominion, Devotion. Possibly Survival Shard / Wisdom, depending on the exact intent Live: create and protect sentient life. The Dawnshard Hoid used to hold Preservation, Endowment, Mercy. Possibly Survival Shard / Wisdom, depending on the exact intent Fight / Be free (?): have free will, assert and protect one's freedom etc. Odium, Autonomy, Ambition, Valor Based on Feruchemy, the fourth would just be Investiture. I spent a lot of time thinking considering this, but I see some significant evidence against it: Passion (whatever it is) seems to be strongly associated with futuresight / Fortune, and it doesn't seem to correlate well with any known or predicted Dawnshard. Some additional divisions (like external vs internal, borrowing from Allomantic terminology) might be a solution, but I'm not sure if we have enough data to figure it out just yet

If I remember correctly, the Everstorm used to be a part of the barrier storm of Braize, so I'm not sure if any additional splintering was necessary in the first place. Anyway, my point was mostly about @Lightspine's theory that the Heralds and Unmade are somehow connected. Heralds breaking the Oathpact would, as a result, explain why the Unmade were not imprisoned on Braize before the True Desolation (Hessi, for example, seems to be convinced that BAM could be imprisoned in Damnation). In that is the case, Chemoarish was probably still bound to Braize - and smuggling her to Roshar might've helped start the current Return without Taln breaking

Yeah, that's probably a main factor. Both because Honor no longer puts restrictions on Surges and Dalinar probably has enough Connection to Ascend if Honor hasn't been splintered. Who knows about the Ashynite Bondsmiths though, they could have used Dawnshards and it's hard to compare power levels with the limited informations we have

Taln definitely did not break: Come to think of it, Chemoarish might have been brought to Roshar by the Everstorm, possibly foreshadowed by this Death Rattle: It could have been part of Odium's plan to find a loophole in the Oathpact. Anyway, whether or not there's a spren for the Everstorm is a RAFO for now:

This theory started as yet another attempt to match the Unmade and KR Orders (using new information from RoW, the KR Quiz etc.), but after revising my last attempt I realized that I actually completely agree with the classification created by @Bzhydack in this post: This has lead me to some interesting theories about Chemoarish and Yelig-Nar (which I believe match Stonewards and Skybreakers, respectively). In this post I'll focus just on Chemoarish. We don't really have much information on her: she's apparently often conflated with the Nightwatcher (probably implying some connection to Cultivation) and she's called a Dustmother. The latter might be a link to Dustbringers, but Nergaoul seems to match them quite well (direct inversion of their Ideal, captured in a ruby etc.). I believe, however, that Chemoarish makes sense if we treat her as an Unmade of Stone, which, as we know from Venli's chapters in RoW, also seems to be connected to Cultivation somehow. This leads me to this fragment we find in Dalinar's last vision in TWoK (chapter 75): I think what is described here might actually be Chemoarish

I've always interpreted the "Bondsmiths bound other Surges" as the way people formed bonds with spren on Ashyn: they clearly didn't have anything like a naturally occurring Nahel bond (that was only discovered on Roshar), so the Bondsmith (possibly the person holding the Dawnshard that binds) Connecting individuals and spren and therefore granting Surges was the only possibility. Also, Edgli is totally a dragon

Taln not breaking has just been confirmed!

Odium: Metallica - Sad but True