KandraAllomancer

And that's how you get fain life

Not really an Aviar example, but I've always seen great potential in Rosharan fauna. Imagine if some kind of Trell equivalent decided to destroy Roshar. He or she could use Hemalurgy to create a hive of controlled Koloss-Chasmfiends. In a way, it would be a twisted response to the Sleepless, just like Trell with his own Faceless Immortals. I would love to see this Zerg/Ender's Game/Staship Troopers scenario in space-age Cosmere

I don't really think a Shard can create a magic system like Allomancy or Surgebinding out of the blue, some kind of anchor in the Physical Realm is definitely needed. However, I see some potential loophole scenarios (usually utilizing fabrials or some other magical items) that might have been hinted at, but never fully explored in Cosmere works so far. Here are three I came up with: 1. Dawnshards. There used to be some kind of Surgebinding on Ashyn, but it no longer exists. At least one Dawnshard from there seems to have survived in Aimia though and could possibly still be active (otherwise I don't see a reason to protect Akinah using measures the Sleepless resort to). We don't know the exact rules of what happens when a magic system ceases to function, but some remnants seem to be possible. Hoid's original Lightweaving might belong to this category as well 2. The Ire are quite good at manipulating Spiritual attributes. Their devices/fabrials were probably developed using Selish magic, but I think it's possible for them to potentially tap the power of another Shard. If they could achieve that and use this power to create new fabrials, they would have basically bootstrapped a new quasi-magic system using an existing one. I can't prove this, but there is some limited hint: Nightblood. It contains Ruin's Investiture and can feed on almost anything, so at the very least we know that foreign Investiture can be embedded in magical items from another magic system and used to increase their power 3. Investing on a Sun rather than on a planet. We have only seen a very weird situation on Taldain, where there is a magic system on a planet, but Investiture comes from the Sun and some intermediary (sand microflora) is needed. Investing exclusively on a Sun, if possible, might open up some new crazy possibilities

I definitely agree that Threnody Shades seem to be the effect of Odium Investiture. The enforce Simple Rules (based on Jewish Sabbath rules) and live in the same place as the Deepest Ones (probably a Lovecraft reference) which fits nicely with the Caananite/Lovecraftian names of the Unmade. The Evil might be some Ambition splinter or Odium Investiture that gained consciousness with time

@Weltall You are (quite correctly) proving that my arguments don't constitute a proof - which they weren't meant to in the first place. We can't prove anything about Vax, we simply don't have enough information. As @Pagerunner pointed out, this is a hypothesis. A very speculative one. It is falsifiable - it can finally turn out to be correct or be proven wrong by a single quote or WoB. It provides some new potential explanation for Ati's reaction and a new potential anagram. Someone may use parts of this theory to create a better one in the future. That's all this is and I never claimed it to be more The way I see it, there are two ways to look at the Vax clues Brandon gave us: A. They have no deeper meaning, they're there just to make us discuss them ('the man calling himself Taln' scenario) B. There are some hints hidden in plain sight here (Mistborn scenario) We've seen Brandon doing both in the past, so we can't tell for sure which is correct. As you can see, I'm clearly in camp B here As for the other issues: Magic systems: We know of one place that has a magic system, but no Shard (Ashyn). Hoid still has access to Yolen Lightweaving even though there may be no Shard on Yolen (RAFO for now). There seems to be place for things beyond 'Shard invests on a planet' scenario Vax and Taldain: Khriss mentions several magic systems (Scadrial, Nalthis, Vax and Taldain), but only two of them in one sentence. That might be a clue (camp B above) that she sees some similarities between them, on Initiation level or some other Kii: We know of one example (Aether of Night) where Brandon ditched/cannibalized everything but a magic system. I assume the same can happen to a planet name It's easy to be Connected enough to a Shard to Ascend: Absolutely true, but you have to be more Connected than other potential candidates, which could be many Ati's memory: If we assume that Ati fully remembers his time as Ruin, then (A) he knows Kelsier is not Vax and (B) he knows Scadrial is not Vax. His confused "Vax?" comment makes no sense whatsoever. Notice that Ati is confused, but Vin is not - that's why I believe his mind being warped by Ruin's Intent messed with his memory and he can't remember events after a certain stage

I think there could have been a planet with a separate Shard there once. In the First Letter in Oathbringer, Endowment claims that Note that it says location, not planet. Maybe she's speaking from experience? Whatever happened there, ended with some Threnody-class disaster and left an anomaly in the Cognitive Realm (some Cognitive Shadows maybe?). The second Shard (Wisdom or Survival Shard maybe?) was chased off by Endowment (and probably fear of Odium) and left with the whole planet. The name of another planet (Farkeeper) implies some kind of guard - against the return of the Shard/planet maybe? It would explain why Endowment got worried about catastrophes on her own world and started creating the Returned

We still don't know much about Sel chronology to say things for sure - according to the Coppermind article on Aonic people, Elantris itself predates their the arrival to the region. I would guess that so does the Ire group. However, for some reason, we only seem to see Aonic Ire members. Maybe the older members hide things from younger field agents? Or there was some split within the group? I hope Elantris sequels will clarify these issues

People have wondered about the Adonalsium anagram long before my theory. I started from it and searched for more potential anagrams, until I finally came up with Vax + Ire This is a highly speculative assumption, yes. It's clearly stated as assumption. Is there a rule against it? I didn't do any comprehensive survey, but I don't think all theories on this forum are based on examples we've seen before

It comes down to several factors: A. The Ire have been around for a very long time, possibly millenia B. I would assume they have agents on most Shardworlds C. Only about half of the Shards are still alive at this point All of the above increase the chances of Ire eventually getting a Shard Not once did I use the word 'prove'. This is a theory and I specifically said: Then I presented my line of reasoning, including some both facts and my assumptions

I never said it happened, only that I believe it could happen: We know that the Ire might be somehow present in Elantris sequels: and that these sequels need to be written before Mistborn Era 3 and, by extension, Stormlight Arc 2. I wouldn't be surprised if some new Cosmere mechanics appeared there

To quote Coppermind, Initiation is If you can draw Investiture and Spiritual attributes using technology without a formal magic system, that's something I would count as Initiation

That's why I wrote "seems to provide some clues" If they can access enough Connection to Ascend, they probably have enough Fortune to find a Shard To be precise, I wrote "comes directly from Spritual Realm" - by which I meant without Investing on a planet

I think that Vax is somehow connected to the Ire and is possibly a Shard Vessel. Here is my reasoning: Vax is only mentioned in Elantris and Mistborn Secret History. Both feature Elantrians extensively Vax's name alone doesn't provide much information by itself, but we know that Brandon seems to provide some clues using anagrams (Adonalsium = "a mind, a soul"). What's the anagram of “Vax Ire”? Xavier Now, the name Xavier is an interesting one. I didn't exist before the 16th century and originated with Francis Xavier, who was a missionary in Japan and China. Brandon was an LDS missionary in Korea and Far East cultures were one of the inspirations for Selish magic systems The name Xavier also comes from Basque language and means either “castle” or “new house”. The Ire have a fortress in the Cognitive Realm, which serves as their new home after they left Sel Vax is heavily suggested to be a place, but it's not confirmed (WoB) and I don't think it makes much sense. The Ire probably have fortresses all over Cognitive Realm and that hardly deserves a separate name I believe Vax could be the name of an Ire Shard Vessel. According to this WoB, the Ire expected their orb to work and it was not a test. It is possible then that they have already tried that before and on of the Ire Ascended. We know that there is a Shard not held by original Vessel that isn't Harmony (WoB) and a Shard that's not on a planet that isn't Ambition (WoB). I think they're one and the same and that this Shard is Vax Vax as a Shard also explains Ati's reaction. The first person he sees after he dies is Kelsier and he's a Sliver who Ascended using Ire technology. If we assume he can sense that, it's not a surprise he mistakes Kelsier for Vax Since Vax didn't Invest on any planet, I assume the Ire can somehow tap his powers directly from the Spiritual Realm using their technology. We've seen them accessing Connection and Fortune, so why not Investiture? This mechanism explains why Vax ad Taldain are mentioned alongside each other in Elantris Ars Arcanum. On Taldain, the Investiture comes from the Sun. Vax's Investiture comes directly from Spritual Realm which I believe is the Sun over Cognitive Realm (a more detailed discussion here) Vax could also be the Shard originally meant for the Rithmatist (spoilers): One of the planets in the Selish system is Kii (Aon of Justice) which could be related to Vax's Intent

OK, I can agree with that. We know that Roshar was specifically designed by Adonalsium for a purpose. That purpose could be to give access to an universal magic system, capable of doing almost anything. If Unity Shard is formed there, their magic would be extremely powerful and grow with every added Shard. Eventually you get quasi-Adonalsium that can pretty much recapitulate original Yolen magic (including manipulation of sub-atomic particles and, obviously, Lightweaving)

The problem is, nuclear fission is not just radiation. Some of the mass of uranium/plutonium is transformed into energy (E=mc^2) that is released as radiation. So it's mass -> energy. This could be approximated by Transformation and Illumination, but (A) Transformation conserves mass and (B) Illumination is powered by Stormlight. I don't see a way to convert mass to energy via Surges. Even Lift can't eat plutonium, so you can't go mass -> Stormlight -> energy If we assume we need Odium to cover all fundamental mechanisms of Cosmere, why just him? Maybe every Shard would add something and we need all 16?

I would add Mystery to the list (for Adonalsium works in mysterious ways...). Given that there may be still a Shard on Yolen: Mystery could be responsible for hiding the planet. Also, Jeskeri Mysteries could have been somehow inspired by the memory of this Shard (the Ire were worldhopping for a very long time and might have heard stories), just like Thaylen Passions were inspired by Odium

"Rosharan fundamental forces" is an oxymoron, really. Fundamental forces are, by definition, fundamental - they should be the same for all Cosmere. I would consider basic laws of physics (relativity, quantum mechanics, electromagnetism etc.) and Brandon's additions (Investiture, Connections, Identity etc.) to be truly fundamental. I think Surges are, like spren, a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces: There are very fundamental processes, like nuclear fission, that are not included in ten Surges: Not all Spiritual properties are covered: Connection is, but Fortune (unless you count Voidbinding) and Identity don't seems to be. One Surge can include very different processes: Adhesion, for example, has both physical and spiritual ones. Also, spanreed are infused rubies which are split in half after the spren was already captured. Their behavior seems to be based on real life quantum entanglement, so I wouldn't count their actions as Surges, but the consequences of quasi-quantum nature of spren themselves. For the record, I still think that in 99% of cases, fabrials can be explained in Surge terms. But it doesn't mean that Surges are actually fundamental - I think they come down to the mix of human perception and Adonalsium's design (10-centric, just as most of the Rosharan system). These perceptions were probably set in stone the moment Cultivation and Honor Invested on Roshar, so they're now can be considered more objective than just a subjective, cultural thing. Still, it makes me wonder - what if Rosharans discover nuclear force? It won't affect Surgebinding, but can human perception create new spren (nuclearspren?) that can be used in modern fabrials? I would guess not, at least without any additional splintering of Cultivation, but I'm not 100% sure

There is also a possibility that the Sleepless as a whole (or maybe some large portion of the species) were somehow changed by Cultivation. We already have a precedence with (Mistborn spoilers) I don't know if I would go that far and call them spren, but I agree that they probably exist closer to the Cognitive Realm than humans. Song of Spren already says this about Singers, and the Sleepless seem to have this to an even higher degree. Given Lift's situation, that might be a common theme for Cultivation

More like Ashyn

Yeah, that sounds right. It would be interesting to know if tapping near-infinite Fortune affects Lightweaving though...

Likewise

It definitely gives you some knowledge: Also, per this WoB, atium foreshadows Fortune

Per this WoB, some of them predate the Shattering. I believe the Stormfather could be one of them, and so could Nightwatcher

If you are a Shard, you can probably add enough Investiture and Connection to a spren to create your own godspren. Or so I assume. Otherwise I don't see any candidates, and the Voidbinding chart indicates that some Bondsmiths equivalent exists The only thing I would disagree with is Renarin's uniqueness

I think we can all agree on that. What we can't agree on is if Stormfather existed before the Shattering, because he couldn't be a godspren then, just a powerful Highstorm spren