KandraAllomancer

We actually have a confirmation that the pre-cataclysm Ashyn magic was based on Surges:

There was a minor issue about Stoneward and Bondsmith Surges in Oathbringer: Which seems to align with how Brandon has previously described Cohesion in the past, as opposed to Tension. I assume this Surge is what Dalinar used to repair the temple of Talenel in Chapter 59, but that's not actually essential to the point. Peter Ahlstrom I think this has to be an error in the text. Pagerunner Sorry, which do you think is the error? The order of Surges in the Ars Arcanum? Or the Stormfather's statement to Dalinar? Peter Ahlstrom The Stormfather's statement. Peter Ahlstrom I have verified with Brandon that what the Stormfather said here is wrong and will be corrected in the future. General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 14, 2017)

My guess would be no. Bonds are about Connection - and the Connection between her former Radiant and Maya herself or the corresponding plate is gone. I would be quite surprised if there was any trace of Connection left between Maya and the Shardplate in such situation

Well, without bonding with Maya he can't create a new Shardplate... And chances of finding the exact Shardplate that belonged to her former Radiant are close to zero. I would expect that from Maya's perspective it would be just another plate though

The most popular current theory is that the Shardplate is formed by non-sapient "cousin" spren of the bonded spren (windspren for Windrunners, gloryspren for Bondsmith etc.). As for splitting a spren - that's how spanreeds seem to work. You trap a spren in a ruby an then split it, essentially creating a spren equivalent of quantum entanglement

I just re-read that fragment and she seems to be a random madwoman held in the same monastery as Taln. Pattern is absolutely fascinated by her though.

It's a good theory, but unfortunately contradicted by several WoBs: Also, for some reason I don't claim to understand, Honor didn't believe he broke the original agreement:

Both Roshar and Braize have spren. It's a reasonable assumption that Ashyn might have had them when it's magic was Surge-based. We also know that people from Ashyn had a "technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work" based on this WoB This WoB: Nightform might explain why the futuresight is a widely known ability, but not why all other levels of Voidbinding are basically forgotten Technically possible, but the chart includes an image of a woman. I know she's not meant to mean anything (WoB), but still - why would spren include humans on their charts? The godspren seem to provide unique abilities beyond two Bondsmith Surges. The Stormfather, for example, allows Dalinar to summon Honor's perpendicularity. I would assume Yelig-Nar and ten Surges are a similar situation

I absolutely agree. I meant it in a more restricted sense - the boon and curse mechanics seem exactly the same for both the Nightwatcher and Cultivation. Given that the disease magic on Ashyn works in a similar way, I would assume that's simply the feature the Rosharan system as a whole

Yeah, Dalinar is definitely a special case here. Doubly so, actually, as some other people (Taravangian and potentially Lift) were also changed by Cultivation and their boons and curses seem permanent. The conversation between Dalinar, the Nightwatcher and Cultivation in Oathbringer also indicates that while Cultivation has more experience with it, her magic follows exactly the same principles as the Nightwatcher's

I assume here that having a corresponding KR Order (Re-Shephir and the Lightweavers, for example) is a separate thing from being a (Void-)Bondsmith spren. For analogy, the Stormfather seems to have a special affinity for Windrunners (his relation to the honorspren, the Highstorm being largely about Adhesion) in addition to being Honor's godspren. A nice potential explanation for the lack of Bondsmith-associated Unmade is that there used to be 10 godspren on Ashyn, the Unmade and the Sibling, and the latter was the only one who didn't end up corrupted

This theory started as a crazy idea in my head (that Voidbinding might be Odium's equivalent of fabrial magic system rather than Surgebinding), but the more I thought about it, the more sense it had, so here it goes: The nature of Odium's magic Based on what we can infer from the nature of the Unmade and the Fused, Odium's magic typically seems to be a twisted and corrupted version of something that already exists. The Fused (and most of the forms of power) were Odium's response to Surgebinders. From a recent reading of this Rhythm of War we know that the Nightwatcher is not a “natural” spren – she was specifically created by Cultivation to not be influenced by the perceptions of humans and given very specific powers (the Old Magic) – and the Unmade seem to mimic that. Although that might seem counterintuitive at first, I believe that Voidbinding and fabrials might be connected in a similar way. Fabrials originated on Ashyn We know that the magic on Ashyn wasn't always disease-based, but used Surges somehow. Given that: we have a WoB suggesting that fabrials existed on Ashyn the Dawnshards (originally from Ashyn) and Surge fabrials are both linked to Aimia, which doesn't seem like a coincidence I assume that fabrials are the original magic system of Ashyn, which was then somehow moved to Roshar. On the origin of Voidbinding We know that Voidbinding (in most cases) originates with the Unmade. They can provide it in an indirect way: Sja-anat can corrupt true Spren and Ba-Ado-Mishram could possibly have been responsible for some Voidbinding-related forms of power (e.g. the Nightform) that are noticeably absent on modern Roshar. That's not “pure” Voidbinding, however – not in the sense described by the Voidbinding chart. The Unmade are probably the Voidbinding's equivalent of Bondsmith spren, granting Voidish versions of the Surges of Tension and Adhesion. But what about the other Voidbinding “orders” (levels?) shown in the Voidbinding chart? They are not only missing (their spren imprisoned on Braize?) but completely forgotten – in popular consciousness Voidbinding is only associated with the Unmade and predicting the future. Why is that? Voidbinding has ten levels, so it cannot be originally from Braize – that leaves us with either Roshar or Ashyn. It was well understood by humans once (someone must have created the chart, assuming it's an in-universe document) but it's barely known by the ancient Singers (Turash is surprised that the Voidspren can even bond humans). That strongly implies Ashyn – which makes sense. If Voidbinding existed (alongside fabrials) long before Surgebinding and the Fused, the knowledge of both was probably partially forgotten and partially suppressed, as they both might have been part of Ashyn's downfall. Voidbinding Initiation and the Wheel of Time analogy OK, so how do you become a Voidbinder? We know that humans can be temporarily affected by the Unmade (the Thrill, death rattles etc.) and even temporarily bond some (probably lesser) Voidspren (Amaram's army). That requires a particular mental state (broadly described as giving your pain or control to Odium), but that alone doesn't constitute Voidbinding yet. We have, however, one example of an attempted bond that goes further – Aesudan's and Amaram's bond with Yelig-nar, which requires swallowing a gemstone and trying to control him. While the first part is probably not necessary for all Voidbinding spren, I believe that gemstones and trying to control the power might be, next to the right emotional state, crucial elements of Voidbinding Initiation (though predicting how a said gemstone could be used is very hard). Based on that, we can actually make an interesting analogy to the basic principles of channeling from Wheel of Time. The magic of Ashyn represent saidin. You have to capture and take control of the spren in order to use magic. An incredible amount of power can be held by individuals with the help of Dawnshards (equivalents of saidin-specific Sa'angreal) and it literally led to the destruction of the world. Roshar, on the other hand, is more about saidar. Magic systems that originated there require a submission to either Oaths or Voidspren possession. What is more, Singers, the original inhabitants of Roshar, have the natural ability to link their power (just look at the summoning of the Everstorm) and in large number might potentially act like a saidar-specific Sa'angreal (I wonder if the whole Singer race could count as a Dawnshard different from the rest...)

As the guy wielding Nightblood, he might have a decent chance to be the person who finally ends Rayse's life (plus, he would be going from killing kings to killing a god...) - that should score him some points That should be relatively easy, I guess. Skybreakers and the Highspren don't strike me as the types who would endorse subterfuge, so the Nahel bond could be easily broken if he lied. And if Nightblood started seeing Szeth as evil...

While the most probable culprit seems to be Cultivation or (possibly) some Shard from Ashyn, I'd like to propose a slightly less glamorous alternative: what if Dalinar is being manipulated by Emotional Allomancy? We have seen people interacting with Shards, Ascending etc. in most Cosmere works. We have seen Dalinar talk to all the Shards (or at least their remnants) on Roshar. Warmth and light though? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can only recall it happening on Scadrial (Mistborn Era 2 spoiler): When Dalinar regains all his memories (Oathbringer chapter 118), he describes the pain of all the deaths he caused as tiny spikes in his soul, which is another potential hint at Scadrial. Cultivation's boon wearing off (a rather unique situation, as both boons and curses tend to be permanent) might be what causes small cracks in Dalinar's soul, making him susceptible to Allomantic manipulation (not control though) We have some good candidates for people who have both the means and their own reasons to manipulate Dalinar: Hoid (a powerful Allomancer) and the Ghostbloods (potentially Hemalurgists)

My thoughts exactly Odium seems to have developed some kind of trick to splinter Shards, but (from what we've seen in Ambition and Honor's case) it takes much more time than what Vin did. He wasn't splintered, obviously, but he definitely was hurt in the past - the Stormfather comments on this (I can't find the exact quote now) and there is this WoB on the whole Broken One status: I would assume that the situation with killing a Shard is somehow similar to the one when they give up the power voluntarily and according to this WoB it can happen in a number of ways: In case of Preservation and Ruin, both powers immediately found a suitable vessel - Sazed

Voidbringing (is that a word?) sounds intriguing, but I don't think we have enough information to make a rational choice

Great idea, @Pagerunner! Taravangian's boon, just like Dalinar's, comes from Cultivation, not the Nightwatcher: The same possibly applies to Lift: There has been a Dawnshard in Aimia: Useful information on the Sibling:

I think that Honor embodies oaths (including binding Oaths by other Shards), just like Ruin embodies entropy. Let's imagine, for example, what would happen if H&C settled on Scadrial instead of Roshar. I would assume that in such scenario there would be a new kind of Metallic Art with Initiation based on progressive Oaths. No bonds, since there would be no spren. I don't think Honor has more monopoly on bonds than Odium has on Passion. Oath-based bonds fall under his domain, sure, but bonding with a Voidspren is borderline demonic possession and it's very hard for me to imagine how it could stem from Honor's Intent I think that forcibly binding/imprisoning a sentient being (the Unmade, true Spren in half-shards) and its ethical implications will be major topics in the Rhythm of War, so we'll hopefully get some answers about how it works and how it relates to Honor's Intent relatively soon

@Honorless I absolutely agree, but the fact that some level of Honor Investiture exists everywhere doesn't mean that all bonds (which seem to be purely Spiritual constructs to me) involve Honor. To provide some analogy: Dustbringers definitely use very entropy-themed magic, but I don't think anybody would say their Surgebinding involves Ruin. Nightblood seems to be some non-trivial special example here. And even if Honor is associated with all bonds in general, there is still no evidence that he can simply bind Odium without Rayse's intentional Oath or the Dawnshards

Do we have any evidence of this? I find it hard to believe that bonding with Voidspren involves Honor in any way Oaths, precisely. There are very different things here: Oaths - all they require is an intentional decision of an individual. You can force it to some degree ('Make this Oath or die!'), but there must be specific Intention for it to be valid in any sense. Oaths in general don't need to involve any magic or bond (e.g. taking a vow of silence) to be encouraged by the Stormfather, I think Bonds - as I wrote above, I don't think they necessarily involve Honor. They are just symbiotic relationships between humans (or other species) and pieces of self-aware Investiture, based on Spiritual Connection. Bonding with a Voidspren doesn't require any Oath, just a specific mental state Finally, we have forced imprisonment of magical variety ('binding' I guess?) - on Roshar it's done with gemstones (Bondsmiths and the Unmade, modern Fabrials) and I agree that in these cases Honor is involved. We see forced imprisonment using completely different mechanisms and Shards on other planets (Scadrial), though. The Dawnshards are described as being able to do something like this, and they might be either of H&C, some other Shard from Ashyn or even predate the Shattering for all we know

Seons, Skaze, Voidspren, stealing a bond via Hemalurgy - we actually have a lot of examples that don't involve Honor. According to my understanding the only thing required for a bond is some form of Spiritual Connection The Stormfather at the beginning of TWoK (already Tanavast's CS, not yet bonded with Dalinar) is very adamant about enforcing existing oaths and is rather encouraging about humans making new ones (Dalinar and Navani's wedding, for example) - but we never see him forcing any oaths and in some situations (Syl) he even discourages them. I would assume this is as close to pure Intent of Honor as we can get

Do we even have any evidence that Honor alone (without any external help - Cultivation, Dawnshards, Oathpact etc.) can force any kind of bond? The Stormfather, despite being Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, is unable to prevent Syl from bonding with Kaladin, so I would assume free will must be very important to Honor's Intent. There is obviously a distant possibility that Tanavast imprisoned Odium at the cost of his mind, just like Preservation did, but there is nothing specific to Honor about that

Elsecaller, definitely

I know, but why not a Bondsmith bonded to the Nightwatcher? Why Cultivation, the Slammer herself, seems to have no right to veto Dalinar's decision? All that makes me think that there might have been some oath made by Rayse to Tanavast specifically. "Might have been" being the key word here, I'm not denying that you might be right

I guess it comes down to the definition of "sealed". Even if Odium makes a binding oath that imprisons him, he still needs to be actively kept in line - the oath would affect Rayse only, leaving the Fused free to attack Roshar. That's why the Oathpact was needed in the first place... Anyway, if both H&C power are the only thing keeping Odium imprisoned, why the power to release him lies in the hands of one individual? Why not all Bondsmiths at once, for example?