KandraAllomancer

This is a very interesting idea. It would even be similar to (Mistborn spoilers) , but it would be hard to gather these people in one place to fight Odium in a coordinated way. Could be, but it poses another obvious question - what was her original name? I agree with all of this, but I think there should be more to the Nighwatcher. Two important points: For now the long game is played almost exclusively by Cultivation, while the Nightwatcher only seems to provide a smokescreen for that Both Stormfather and the Unmade were something else before they became godspren. I would be reasonable that the Nighwatcher had some powers or represented something before Cultivation and Old Magic It's just a hunch, I have no evidence for this, but what if her original abilities affected Singers somehow? Many of us (including me) believe that Rlain will be Nightwatcher's Bondsmith, and it would be interesting to see what she can do for them (besides Old Magic)

Hmm, it would probably have to be 3-to-1... I think it can be done - each Bondsmith godspren gets one intelligent, one intermediate (for a lack of a better word) and one mindless Unmade: Stormfather Ba-Ado-Mishram - she provides Voidlight and Forms of Power. Highstorms provide Stormlight and allow Singers to change forms. She prepares a False Desolation, Stormfather prepares people for the oncoming Desolation Chemoarish, I guess? Judging by her name, she quite destructive, as are Highstorms Nergaoul - both represent fury, in a way. Both are extremely important in Dalinar's life Nighwatcher Sja-anat, obviously Re-Shephir - both want to understand humans Moelach - future sight Sibling Yelig-nar - grants access to Surges and requires a gemstone - qualities shared by fabrials. Also, he destroys libraries and gemstone library in Urithiru was created to avoid this Dai-Gonarthis - probably takes part in the destruction of Aimia, which was a source of Surge fabrials. Knowledge about both is mostly lost Ashertmarn - grows on a working fabrial (Oathgate)

There are some things that bother me about the Nightwatcher. Let's look at the other godspren first: The Stormfather - responsible for the Highstorms that provide Stormlight The Sibling - probably powers Urithiru The Unmade - Voidbiding originates with them and, at least in Ba-Ado-Mishram's case, they provide Voidlight Their names are self-explanatory or have a known source (Near East mythology, Lovecraft). They provide essential advantages for their respective sides of conflict. So, why is Cultivation's godspren called the Nightwatcher? And can she provide something useful for the Knights Radiant? I can see several options: Old Magic, obviously. The problem is, most boons are kind of useless in the broader perspective. The two that provide the biggest advantage to the KR, Dalinar's and Lift's, seem to originate from Cultivation directly (the latter based on this WoB) The Unmade apparently cannot affect Nighwatcher's Valley. The same used to apply to Urithiru. I used to think it was due to Cultivation and the Sibling, respectively, but what if that was always Nightwatcher's role? Guarding against Odium's forces? This would provide nice contrast with Sja-anat. One modifies people, the other modifies spren. One guards the KR, the other is Odium's spy Future sight. Dalinar has a vision of killing Elhokar in the Valley (this could be of Cultivation, obviously). This would provide a nice link with the name of the Order of Truthwatchers. Also, it provides some additional explanation why Vorinism looks unfavorably on searching Nightwatcher's help What do you think?

Thanks for the information. I really need to re-read Edgedancer... There are still some things about the Nightwatcher that I'd like to discuss, but I'll create another topic for it

I always imagined most of Roshar as something more akin to savanna (pseudo-grassland + rare trees), but you may be right. Edit: I re-read Oathbringer chapter 114 (Dalinar's meeting with the Nightwatcher). There is indeed no explicit mention of soil in Nightwatcher's Valley, but there's wealth of plant life (and types of plants) unlike anything Dalinar had seen in his life before. Also, wild chickens live there.

Yeah, you're right, I was thinking about the Oathpact. My mistake Yes I absolutely agree I think it's rather something like Odium's take at Hemalurgy, but the metal used in the blade seems to be Rayseium, so there are some similarities to Honorblades.

Shinovar is the only land that has soil on Roshar (except for Nightwatcher's Valley, apparently), I think. It explains the attitude of the Shin towards stone (i.e. rest of Roshar). Shinovar was always shielded from the Highstorms, but its flora and fauna are from Ashyn. It takes time to develop soil from bare rock (usually by lichens and mosses) - that's why I think some form of terraforming was used.

I think we need a better classification/terminology. Here is my proposition: Tier 1: abilities shared by all spren or all true spren. Being bound in a gemstone/gemheart, entering Physical Realm, Nahel bond, Shardblades. Basic Realmatic stuff. Tier 2: Human concepts and natural phenomena (pain, fire etc.). Can be used using fabrials (painrials, heating fabrials etc.). Tier 3: Ten selected concepts (Surges) given special meaning by a magic system. Require Nahel bond or a special Surge fabrial. True Spren can used this to a certain degree even if they don't grant these powers to humans. Syl's shapeshifting is Illumination and/or Transformation. Pattern's levitation is obviously Gravity. Tier 4: Supercharged, area of effect version of Surges ruled by large spren. I think Highstorms are this (primarily Adhesion). Nightwatcher lives in a forest (on Roshar!) - I think this is due to supercharged Progression, a smaller scale version of what was used to terraform (Ashyn-form ) Shinovar. These Surges are completely separate from Tier 3 Bondsmith powers granted by these spren. Also, I think that fabrial version of this destroyed Ashyn. Tier 5: Special powers of large spren, completely unrelated to any of the previous. Old Magic and visions provided by Stormfather. Require large spren's arbitrary decision rather than a Nahel bond. Old Magic can be considered a magic system sensu lato because it provides new abilities to humans and these can be stolen via Hemalurgy. It's not part of 30 Rosharan magic systems though. In these terms, I would consider the Unmade effects to be primarily Tier 4 Voidbinding (even if I assign Voidish Surges to them completely differently than @asmodeus). They also likely provide Tier 3, if we consider them Odium's godspren that bond with Voidbinding equivalent of Bondsmiths. Some abilities may be even Tier 5 - and I guess we'll have to wait and find out.

I absolutely agree with this. Honorblades predate Odium's imprisonment, so he had a chance to create Odiumblades. We have no proof that he did.

For one, Odium didn't create Odiumblades (as far as we know), even if these would be extremely useful to his cause. Some spren refuse to become Shardblades outright (Stormfather) or are rather hesitant about it (Wyndle). I would assume this is much more common in Voidspren, as they probably can't see humans and singers as anything else than useful tools.

Quoting the Coppermind article on Hierocracy: and Vorinism, in some form, must have existed before the Recreance.

The problem is that such Truths make it very hard to lie to ourselves, and lying to oneself is a powerful psychological defense mechanism (even if not very healthy). Just look what it did to Shallan in Oathbringer.

I think that Yelig-nar's ability to access ten Suges is by stealing them (from Rosharan spren? from his victims?), but this such a RAFO territory that anything is possible. I usually see this as a purely religious issue. Ardents condemning heretical ideas about the doctrine on the nature of their gods (similar to Holy Trinity in Christianity or oneness of God in Islam). I like to think there were some precedents to Dalinar's situation. But, once again, very hard to say for sure. I don't think this could happen, but if it did, I would be pleasurably surprised.

The basic problem isn't even if this could happen, but if this would ever happen. Shardblades ultimately stem from Honor's idea of Honorblades. I can't see how Voidspren would want to follow this particular example.

This could happen, obviously, but would make me think that there's another, secret Shard on Roshar, solely devoted to messing with him.

Elsecallers. What Jasnah can do with Soulcasting is sheer awesomeness. Combine this with Trasnportation and it's a no-brainer for me. Works on a personality level, too.

That is a vital part, I agree. But there is more to it. At the very least, Ba-Ado-Mishram provided Voidlight and Forms of Power to the Singers during the False Desolation. To be fair, Nightwatcher is special, as she grants access to two very different magic systems. Stormfather on the other hand... I can definitely see similarities between Highstorms, Merging the Realms by Dalinar and the Stormforms summoning the Everstorm. The underpinning theme here seems to be Adhesion. As for the Unamade, some of their powers seem similar enough to pure Voidbinding (Moelach is a striking example), while other have more unique skills. I still think that these skills are ultimately based on Voidbindings. I treat Sja-anat's Enlightening as an expression of Voidbinding's equivalent of Progression, even if it probably provides a very different effect for human/singer Voidbinders.

I was referring mostly to this particular part of the original post: I think Rayse is far too egoistic and far too gone to Odium's Intent to feel anything like it.

This is so foreshadowed and so simple that a large part of me doesn't want to believe it I think there will be some twist here, but I can't imagine what it could be

First of all, I believe Adonalsium allowed themselves (himself? herself? itself?) to be Shattered (or at least predicted it). I find it hard to believe such a powerful being could be killed by mere mortals. Why? It might be part of a plan to create a better god, as you mentioned. We know that Cosmere was inspired by Asimov's Foundation series (and Robots as well). This might provide a few clues: Seldon's plan is basically to let the Empire fall and guide it to a new, better version in the future. The same could apply to Adonalsium. Unity and reconstitution are a recurring theme in Cosmere works I believe in this theory that Sel is becoming an equivalent of Asimov's Gaia In "Foundation and Earth", humans try to locate their planet of origin. I would be surprised if this didn't happen in space-age Cosmere Finally, humanity's ultimate fate is Galaxia (galaxy-scale Gaia) rather than Seldon's plan, because of potential alien life threat. Fain life is this for Cosmere The problem with that plan is that it needs time, and in Cosmere it would be very easy to create a technological singularity (definitely on Scadrial, very likely on Roshar) that would essentially end history (not to mention, make a very poor plot). So how do you slow things down? By assigning particular Shards to particular Vessels. Some are nicely paired and keep each other in check. For others, you need Shards that would stop things from progressing too quickly - and Odium and Autonomy are quite good at that.

Not consciously, I think. But I could believe that Rayse getting this particular Shard is part of Adonalsium's plan for Cosmere's future.

The former seems to be suggested by Oathbringer chapter 57 (Dalinar's first meeting with Odium). But when Dalinar sees Odium's true essence, he fears for the latter.

Not really my point. I like @Fractalfire's idea: but I only think that exploiting others' flaws is key to understanding Odium's behavior. But, as I said, he's not about positive emotions, or loss, or justice - he's egotistic to the core. He wants to be the only god in Cosmere and everyone else is just a tool for him. The more imperfect, the better - they're easier to corrupt.

Mistborn Secret History spoiler: Probably not, after holding the Shard for so long. To quote Hero of Ages chapter 56 epigraph:

I really like the general idea, even though I don't really agree on the details. Odium definitely has this kind of impact on humans. For Shards? I don't think so. I can totally see him exploiting Shards' flaws, but I would bet on a more subtle way. This would be extremely dangerous to Odium. Splintering a Shard takes a long time. Honor was still able to talk to Knights Radiant before he died. I think he generally represent egoistic emotions - so, for example, lust instead of joy or happiness I agree, Passion could be some underlying Cosmere mechanism, like Connection or Identity.